Thanks

Not actual results:

One can print any velocity one wants.  Hell, you can throw a 300 gr. FMJ out of this round at 3,000 fps if you run the pressures up to somewhere between astronomical and insane.
Printing charts given 2400 fps with a 200 gr. bullet makes for some pretty impressive charts, but what pressures are you running to get that, or is it just pie in the sky wishful thinking?
In the AR, using standard bolts opened up to .473, you cannot exceed 35,000 psi, such as with the .458S and the 7.62 x 39 sized .50 B, or you will exceed the back thrust limitations of the bolt design, ie, 5.56.  Just as with the 7.62 x 39, when back thrust is pushed beyond normal 5.56 limits, it has a reputation for eating bolts, unless you get bolts that are stronger than normal.
So, again, just like in the other thread where I mentioned all this, and it seems it is being ignored or if it was addressed, I did not see it, what pressures are you having to run that bullet to get 2400 fps with a 200 gr. bullet?
Before everyone gets all ga-ga over made up charts, we better cinch up our panties and see what can actually be achieved with real testing.
If you can do this with off the shelf 200 gr. bullets going 2400 fps, I will be all over this like a duck on a June bug, but until I see something concrete my money stays in my wallet.
At least some Quick Load pressure data would be better than nothing.  My .470 Rhino, QL said I would get 2200 fps with a 500 gr. bullet.  Not in the real world by any stretch of the imagination.  I topped out at about 1950 fps, considerably short of the .470 NE duplication we were hoping for, and QL said we would get.  So even if QL says it will do it, we need some real world figures.  
I am not trying to be a dick about this, but come on, three pages of people ready to throw money at this thing and nobody has run even any QL pressure data yet. And if you can find a powder that will do it on paper, will that powder do it and still operate an AR?
I am not trying to throw water on this round, I love the concept of it and really hope it lives up to billing, but let's step back and take a reality check here.

no worries.....no offense taken at all and all of your questions or concerns are valid points.  But we are in the business of shooting folks straight without BS figures and I do know that all the numbers we have are not unsafe pressures. This round mimics 300 blackout on a much larger scale....powders are the same....the case shoulder is the same ....the case conversion process is the same ect....
simplicity of my design is what perked Dave's ears at Pacific Tool and Gauge and that guy has seen a lot of stuff over the years.  It's good to see him excited about what I have come up with.  None the less we aren't the only light weight projectile makers.....Barnes tsx 235 grain and 200 grain stuff is available. ...barnes also has a ttsx in heavy weights and are devastating at sub sonic speeds and are designed to expand at sub sonic speeds.  Granted this  .375 Reaper ® is all new to you guys but we have been working on this a little while and it will be a great contender for sure.   More details to follow in the near future.....you can be sure of that!

Any videos of this round being fired in an AR-15? Or any gun really?

This would greatly help out.

Why are only ballastics of what may be possible being posted?

24gr of capacity is not very much to get a 200gr bullet going out of a 16" barrel. When will we see results of real world test data? Will you warranty bolts that have the lugs sheared off?

What SAAMI board member is submitting your cartridge for approval?

Who exactly in the military is actually interested in this round? Considering the fact that they went away from 338LM because of cost and are now shooting 300WMs along with no can that can physical work on this round besides a 50bmg can I find military adoption a bit unlikely aince they didnt even want 6.8SPC, 300blk or 458 socom.

Dave Kiff is in the reamer business to make money. You coming up with a new round is good for him. Considering he made a 458 socom reamer off of a chamber cast I wouldnt put too much faith in his "excitement" about your cartridge.

Im actually interested in the cartridge as I've got a bowers vers50 can and enjoy bigger bore cartridges and I use H110 in my 300blk, 500SW and 458 socom so its right up my alley but having loaded for similar cartridges I have my doubts about a 200gr bullet going 2400fps at the 35k psi that bolt is rated for. I think most of us just want to see real results and not all the sales pitch mumbo-jumbo. Most of us that are interested in this cartridge already load for similar rounds and know the limits.

Agreed but I haven't pitched it to anyone on any forum anywhere for advertisement period.......it's selling itself and I'm just answering questions as we can of course.  And of Dave is in the business to make money but hey it is what it is......

no one is selling this to the military either.....their people reached out to me and it's units that are within that inner circle that have been using 300 blackout. ..and 458 socom and due to alot of disappointment and The high price it takes to shoot the .458 that they are looking for a better and improved platform.
as for real numbers they will be released soon enough and I really appreciate your and everyone eles interest and am surprised at the response we have gotten since releasing the round.
Stay tuned guys ........  

I see on the website that you are taking pre-orders with a 45 day turn around. Do you have any actual ballistics on this round yet?

For all those complaining that their .308 and .338 can/suppressor wont work all you need is a full auto rated can in 9mm or .40 S&W just like people use in the .300 black out.

Thats only for subsonics, youll blow a pistol can wide open with supers.

This is not my data but I wanted to share it here.


Cartridge: .308 x 1.44
Bullet:  .375/200 gr
Useable Case Capacity: 25.368 grain H2O
Cartridge O.A.L. : 2.240 inch
Barrel Length: 16.0 inch
Powder: Hodgdon Lil'Gun

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt
%       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        
-12.0   78    18.83   1660    1224   24574   3434     96.1    
-10.0   79    19.26   1695    1276   26034   3511     96.8    
-08.0   81    19.69   1730    1329   27587   3584     97.4    
-06.0   83    20.12   1765    1383   29243   3653     98.0    
-04.0   85    20.54   1799    1437   31004   3717     98.5  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   86    20.97   1833    1492   32878   3777     98.9  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   88    21.40   1867    1548   34886   3832     99.3  !DANGEROUS LOAD

Interesting! Subbing for more info

Looks a bit like the 308 x 1.5 blown out to take a .375 bullet

I just dont see a big improvement over the 338 whisper/spectre when it comes to subs. The 300g 338 Bergers are 1.82" long. The 375 SMKs are 350g & 1.75" long. No real gain when it comes to weight/tumble effect. The 338spectre can use a 9mm can & with the 6.8spc mags it has a capacity advantage. Also if one were to use 6.8spc brass to form there spectre brass a 200g 338 bullet @ 2000fps is a reality
Is there a 375 brl out there with a fast enough twist to stabilize the 350g SMKs at subsonic speeds?

As fast as 1:12 Here
We would need a custom can for. 375 so I can't see very much sales on this cartridge.

Without having studied it much, it seems to me more commercially viable than 338 Spectre (and better for my particular priorities).  If I can avoid 6.8 mags and brass I view that as a positive... and could shoot it through my pending 458 can.

But is the 12 twist fast enough to stabilize the 350s at sub speeds?

Nope!  Now that I calculated it, I see more like 1 in 9 twist

Bowers makes a can that isn't insanely priced and will probably take these kinds of pressures.

You need a 1:6.5 in the .338 Spectre with 300 gr. bullets to stabilize them.  The 300 gr. SMK is one loooong bullet (1.715 inch), and the twist calculators say it could have a slightly slower twist (down to 1:9), but testing proved otherwise.  In the end, 1:6.5 is a good all around twist in the .338 and it stabilizes everything from 165 to 300 gr., subsonic and supersonic, and with very good accuracy.  A 300 gr. .375 going 1000 fps with a bullet length of 1.5 inch, according to the Berger bullet stabilizer calculator, should need a 1:12, or faster.  The same calculator said the .338 300 needs a 1:9 so take it for what you are paying for it.  My WAG a 1:8 would be a good place to start and see what happens.
Just a little something to think about:
 QL says a 200 gr. .375 bullet will only reach about 2200 fps at 60,000 PSI, and the back thrust on the bolt lugs would be 50% more than with a 5.56 cartridge (1.58 times more to be exact).  The back thrust on the bolt lugs of a 5.56 (at 60,000 psi) is 6662, the back thrust on a .473 bolt face at 60000 psi is 10,542.  The 7.62 x 39, known to be very hard on AR bolts, is slightly over 7,000 IIRC.  
PSI on the bolt is only half the story.  You must take into account the area of the head of the cartridge to determine back thrust on the bolt lugs.  According to AR-15 Barrels, anything over 7,000 is pushing the limits of an AR bolt. We all know any AR-15 bolt can take 60,000 PSI, that's not news, but only with a 5.56 sized bolt face.  

Running some numbers through QL, (.375 reaper), based on the 60,000 psi pressure limit.

Unless...of course, they have access to some proprietary powder.

As you know QL is only a 'predictor' and under and over values certain powders. Letting QL pick the best powders and plugging in certain limitations (no less than 65% powder fill, 60,000 psi, no more than 105% case fill) we still only come up with the following:

Cartridge: .308 x 1.5
Bullet: .375/200 gr
Useable Case Capaci: 25.370 grain H2O
Cartridge O.A.L. : 2.240 inch
Barrel Length: 16.0 inch

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !


Powder type    Filling/Loading Ratio %, grains,    vel. fps Prop.Burnt %    P max psi  P muzz psi  
                                 
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon Lil'Gun       104.0    25.3      2163   100.0    60000    4136  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Hodgdon H110         103.2    25.9     2129    99.3    60000    4337  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Alliant 2400             96.6     21.4      2075   100.0    60000    3740  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Ramshot Enforcer     95.1     22.7     2069   100.0    60000    3677  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Accurate 4100         98.0     23.7      2058    99.9    60000    3766  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Norma R123             91.8     21.5     2046   100.0    60000    3385  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Accurate No.9         84.7     21.2      2021   100.0    60000    3418  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Alliant BLUE DOT      102.1    19.4      2004   100.0    60000    3299  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Accurate No.7         77.3     19.5      1992   100.0    60000    3184  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Accurate 5744        105.0    23.0      1983    91.5    50969    4143  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Alliant POWER PTL    85.3     15.8      1946   100.0    60000    3042  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Accurate 1680        105.0    26.4      1938    85.1    48877    3991  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Vihtavuori N105       99.4     18.2      1935   100.0    60000    2826  !DANGEROUS LOAD!
Vihtavuori 3N38       96.3     18.4      1927   100.0    60000    2853  !DANGEROUS LOAD!

I haven't done any extended range testing, but at moderate ranges, 1:8 stabalizes the 350gr .375 SMK just fine at subsonic speed.
Delta P Design has an off-the-shelf .375 suppressor available.  I have one.

http://www.deltapdesign.com/suppressors/brevis-5-5mm-375-cal-magnum-suppressor

Tony

looking for the real world info still


this round sounded very nice for me to put together another upper for bear hunting, But before I walk away from my rifled 12 gauge I want to see something concrete.

I have a friend who uses .50 Beo and loves it.  I want to make sure this will hit close to what that does.

I just want to know why this thing was announced 3ish months ago and there still isnt any actual test data. Almost like the manufacturer isnt releasing it on purpose...

I askes some pretty specific questions a few pists back and the manufacturer refused to answer most of them. I believe thats pretty telling. I wouldnt invest any of my koney in this thing until a few people who jumped in blind have been running them for a while.

pipe dream

I see on W3P's facebook page hes posts something about a baby incoming.  We might not see anything solid for a little while I'm afraid.. Too bad it seems like a neat concept.

check with the guy who posted above you . I would bet he has something that will knock a bear on its butt.

 

Still looking for real world #'s not projections.


Hope all is going well with the new baby at W3PS "Whiskey 3 Precision Systems" LLC

A few comments.

First, this round is NOT a .260.  That round is far superior.

Second, it is a gimmicky critter, and I, too, have trouble seeing how 2400 fps is going to be ginned up in an AR-compatible load, but having said all that, if a 200 grain bullet can be moved at 2000-2100 what you have is a modern version of Frank Hamer's .35 Remington Model 8.  Not too bad.

Third, I've spent a lifetime with the .375 H&H Magnum and have killed literally tons of game with mine. I do get a chuckle at theses little popguns.  They are kind of cute.

As for the .35 Remington, tho it is not much talked about anymore, it has a strong following here yet and has earned a great reputation for killing deer and bear.  So this round even if it doesn't live up to its manufacturer's promises is still yyet not worthless.  For myself, I'd not mind a very light carbine.  What a handy little thing that would be with irons for keeping up with the hounds on bear.

The .358 MGP tosses a 200gr bullet at 2100fps, and double stacks in a 6.8 mag.  It's more like a 35 Remington than the little .375's.

Tony

If a .375 or .358 bullet is constructed similarly and runs at 2000-2100 fps, the differences in performance will be impossible to tell in the field.  

The advantage of these modern loadings over the .35 Rem is the superior ballistic shape of the modern bullets over the normal RN and FP bullets common to ammo loaded for tube feeders.

A handy .35 or .375 carbine would get my attention.  Oh, yeah, I said that already...  LOL.

Don't see why not tho it'll gum up a gas tube.  Now...why not just make a gas block/chimney that vents the gas straight up and use the rifle as a straight pull?

Pin prick the gas port before reassembling the gas tube and go back to jacketed bullets.

I do think there are plenty of guys using AR's with boolits tho.  With gas checks I doubt there is much trouble.

**Update:**
Got US Army witnessed testing of very light powder charged 235 grain Barnes TSX projos this morning at Fort Benning. 
21 grains of h110 
2000 fps

Keep in mind that this case holds way more than that in capacity and is considered a very low charged case at 21 grains of h110. 

Other witnessed tests are coming with the normal loads and 1680 looks to be the real winner in powder so far. 2400 fps with a 200 grain projo is a cake walk and will be verified and posted as soon as the boys in Green get jiggy with it again in the next few days.

What are the designed/intended operating pressures for this cartridge in the AR15?  Bigbore already asked that, and I just read through all 4 pages, still don't see a MAP for it.

The real limitation in the AR15 is not the bolt, but the barrel tennon and wall thickness of the chamber.  If you plan on using AR15 external thread tennon for the barrel extension, and a standard diameter barrel extension, you will be limited to well under 40,000psi for the chamber pressure, 35ksi being the realistic figure that has already been thrown out when using cases with a base diameter of .473" and case diameter that wide or larger.

The only way around that is doing what Remington did, and making a proprietary upper receiver, bolt, and barrel extension to handle the hoop stress.

In doing a lot of testing on the 6.5 Grendel, we've seen that Quick Load is almost totally useless in determining pressure data.  Strain Gauge and Piezoelectric instrumentation are the best ways to look at pressure, and both require expertise in their set up to get accurate readings.

W3P

Thank you for the update really looking forward to more info Good luck with THE baby and good luck with this baby  =)

***New update from Fort Benning*** 08/18/2014 @ 1700 est

2,365 fps out of 26 grains of h110 pushing the Barnes 235 grain TSX

Witnessed and confirmed by US Army personnel. .....

Also in tial reports are that the 250 grain Sierra game king will be pushing this at 2200 fps with a whopping 2900 foot pounds of energy! ! Good enough for any large game on the North American Continent!!!

Operating pressures haven't been determined with instrumentation, but the bolt issue has been solved before we even started this project to assure that we didn't have those issues with bolt lug failure ect.   Our test gun was built with a standard barrel extension from a 5.56 and feed ramps adjusted for proper feeding and have had no issues out of that either.  

Big Bore means well with his figures and I agree that that's all they are is figures on the computer but in real life I'm getting 2365 fps out of a 235 grain pressure spiking Barnes TSX projo and has no pressure signs at all with 26 grains of H110.  

Hope that helps I'm just trying to get a few updates that have been witnessed by the Army today

If you can get a honest 2400 w/ 200 grain bullets you will be somewhat shy of the excellent 9.3x57 territory, a cartridge with which I have much experience.  Interesting you are using H110 also as it would seem the right "handgun" powder to use and should be fast enough depending on location of gas port allow port pressures that aren't too close to peak.

The expansion ratio of these cartridges must allow for performance greater than what might otherwise be assumed.  The 9.3x57 was loaded to very low pressures but performance was excellent;  235 gr @ 2450, 225 @ 2525 and of course the standard 286 grain bullet @ 2075 fps which was easily loaded to over 2100 fps.  Such performance is very efficient on medium game.  

I know the little guy you are working with does not have the POTENTIAL as the case capacity is simply not there, and loading 286 grain bullets is basically out of the question, but you have me intrigued.

Along a similar track, let's not forget the Soviet Medved, a highly developed AK derivative that was chambered in the so-called 9x54R {actually, same dimensions as the Finnish 9.3x53R}.  

Anyway, a light, handy .375 Reaper with a 16-inch tube would be a very useful bear gun for our marathon ridge runners around here.

Here's a result of one of the bear I shot w/ the 9.3x57:

just curious as to what powder that you use in that 9.3x57?   And good Lord at the wound channel on that Bear!!!   We have had quite a few guys in Alaska interested due to the ease of the AR 15 platform and this round , coupled with the affordability and ability to convert brass from 308 brass.  

The Socom world is interested due to the same factors and also being able to gain mag capacity over the .458 socom and range.   We did good today at Fort Benning and just glad the numbers were backed up 100% so we don't have to deal with the nay Sayer flak any further.   That's why we waited to post anything else because our numbers guys just don't take seriously.

When will you be testing shorter barrels fkr velocity? I would only be interested in the 10.5" version.

Primary powders in the 9.3x57 are H and IMR 4895, RL15, AA2460, Win 748.  I burned up 8+ pounds of AA2230C {surplus data powder} in mine.  I no longer own a 9.3x57 but owned 2.  I currently own a 9.3x62 {16-inch bbl carbine} for bear which is similar but more powerful, giving in the 16" bbl a little faster speeds than I got in my 24" bbl'd x57's.

I think all those powders while of medium burn rate would act as very slow powders in the tiny chopped Reaper case and I don't think you'd get much velocity out of them.  Your H110 seems right on, and maybe others in the Hercules/Alliant 2400 speed range to boot?  

Keep us posted.  This one seems quite interesting.

Operating pressures are determined before you even start messing with the cartridge.  Bolt lugs are the least of your worries if you're using a standard AR15 upper receiver. Why am I explaining this?  Chamber wall thickness.  There's a reason why the big bore cartridges are limited to well under 40,00psi, and it isn't the bolt.

Any updates on this?

They've taken the rifle and cartridge pig hunting, and put some videos up on the brass conversion process.

Their FB page is https://www.facebook.com/W3PrecisionSystems (left cold).

Best,
JBR

Interested now that you can get 2200 FPS out of a 250, but I need to see pressure data in regard to the chamber. Because the case is smaller than any of the big bores it should be able to handle a higher pressure such as 45K PSI, but I don't think 60K PSI the 308 case can take is a good idea without using a larger receiver extension, and chamber wall thickness. I am still interested in seeing continued data and results, and I am excited that you guys have been seeing good results out of the project. I will jump on board if it does what you say it can do, and is as safe as 300 blackout in the platform. As a cast boolit aficionado, as well as a big bore nut this looks fun, and cheap to shoot.

Yea i noticed their Facebook page postings; or lack there of.

Everyone seems excited about this round. I think that they would sell really well. All they have to do is give some factual information about the pressures.

Military personnel from Ft Benning have been mentioned several times now.

Is the firing being done on a military range?  What involvement would military personnel have with this round?  Or is the shooting being done on a range nearby and mil personnel just happen to be observing.

What possible military application would a round like this have?

For those of u following this they posted a video on their Facebook page. Lehigh defense 250 grain controlled fracture bullets over 27 grains of h110 powder, 2034fps.

Same velocity as a 250 grain bullet in the 458 Socom but with a lot less powder. Any updates on what pressure these are running?

I have been watching pretty close on this one. I haven't seen any published numbers on the pressure generated.