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Cag40Navy
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Posted: 1/30/2013 10:11:26 PM
I am looking at these 2 rounds but i am not for sure what the difference is. I know there is, but i am not sure what the difference is and/or what the applications are. Thanks!
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Grendelizer
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Posted: 1/30/2013 10:25:09 PM
Two completely different classes of cartridges. Think the difference between .223/5.56 and .308/7.62 NATO. The 6.5 Grendel is based on the Russian military 7.62x39 case; the 6.5 Creedmoor is based on the .308 Winchester case (roughly).

The 65G is designed for use in the AR15 class of weapons; the 65C is too big for the AR15, and only fits in AR10 class weapons.

As such, the Creedmoor has more powder to shoot the same bullets faster than the Grendel.

John
Tim_W
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Posted: 1/30/2013 10:31:41 PM
The Creed is apx 300 fps faster than the Grendel and the rest above.
Direct-Drive
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Posted: 1/30/2013 10:32:55 PM
Grendel = small frame (AR15)
Creedmoor = large frame (AR10/308AR)
AlphaOperator
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Posted: 1/30/2013 10:33:21 PM
Originally Posted By Grendelizer:
Two completely different classes of cartridges. Think the difference between .223/5.56 and .308/7.62 NATO. The 6.5 Grendel is based on the Russian military 7.62x39 case; the 6.5 Creedmoor is based on the .308 Winchester case (roughly).

The 65G is designed for use in the AR15 class of weapons; the 65C is too big for the AR15, and only fits in AR10 class weapons.

As such, the Creedmoor has more powder to shoot the same bullets faster than the Grendel.

John


started writing the same stuff basically...until my phone fritzed out.

fwiw- i like the 6.5G for what performance it offers in the AR15 platform.

ymmv
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DEGOLDCUP
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Posted: 1/30/2013 10:50:06 PM
Originally Posted By Grendelizer:
Two completely different classes of cartridges. Think the difference between .223/5.56 and .308/7.62 NATO. The 6.5 Grendel is based on the Russian military 7.62x39 case; the 6.5 Creedmoor is based on the .308 Winchester case (roughly).

The 65G is designed for use in the AR15 class of weapons; the 65C is too big for the AR15, and only fits in AR10 class weapons.

As such, the Creedmoor has more powder to shoot the same bullets faster than the Grendel.

John

Like comparing 7.62X 39 Improved or 30-30 ballistic against the 308 (7.62X51)?

DanV
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Posted: 1/30/2013 11:16:24 PM
Creedmore is longer and requires a longer action rifle than grendel. Grendel was designed to function in same size rifle actions as 223 rem / 5.56mm, creedmore designed to function in rifles same size as 308 win / 7.62x51

I personally would go with a 260 rem (very similar to creedmore) first choice. 6.8 spc or 6.5 pcc in AR15.
LRRPF52
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Posted: 1/30/2013 11:18:58 PM
The 6.5 Grendel's case lineage comes from the intermediate cartridges. It was introduced officially in 2003, although similar wildcats existed before in the Benchrest community.

7.92x33 Kurz >> 7.62x39 Russian >> .220 Russian >> 6mm PPC >> 6.5mm PPC >> 6.5 Grendel

It's a 31-34gr max case capacity with high density powders. It fits in what is commonly called a micro action, like the AR15.

The 6.5 Creedmoor's lineage is from the .308 Winchester-based cases.

.308 Winchester >> .30 TC >>>>>>>>> 6.5 Creedmoor The Creedmoor is Hornady's answer to the .260 Remington, made from necked-down the .30 TC.

I own both a .260 Remington and a 6.5 Grendel, so the comparison is the same basically.

The .260 Rem and 6.5 CM will push 130-140gr class bullets at 2700-2850fps from a gas gun, making them excellent for true long-range shooting, where you typically encounter targets from 600yds out to 1200+yds. It is easy to hit man-size silhouettes with these rifles at 800-1200yds, really. The penalty you pay is in rifle weight, ammunition cost, and a little more recoil, but a bit less than a .308.





The 6.5 Grendel fits in the AR15 receiver set, as mentioned above. You end up with a very lightweight rifle if you want, with very low recoil-roughly half of the .308, and not much more than a .223. Effective range for shooting man-size silhouettes is more in the 500-800yd range. Velocities with 123gr-85gr bullets range from 2600-2900fps from a 24" gun, and 2450-2780fps from a 16" gun. Man-size silhouettes closer than 600yds with it are pretty easy to hit. You also have a great little hunting rifle or carbine for taking medium game within 300-400yds, with an amazing selection in hunting bullets, and 25 factory loads for it to choose from, including Wolf Gold Line from Serbia for $13/box. Other loadings are found from Hornady, AA, Precision Firearms, and Black Hills.



Ndenway
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Posted: 1/30/2013 11:40:43 PM
Originally Posted By Grendelizer:
Two completely different classes of cartridges. Think the difference between .223/5.56 and .308/7.62 NATO. The 6.5 Grendel is based on the Russian military 7.62x39 case; the 6.5 Creedmoor is based on the .308 Winchester case (roughly).

The 65G is designed for use in the AR15 class of weapons; the 65C is too big for the AR15, and only fits in AR10 class weapons.

As such, the Creedmoor has more powder to shoot the same bullets faster than the Grendel.

John


iirc the creedmoor is based off the 250savage as reloaders are fire forming affordable creedmoor cases out of 22-250 brass.

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Posted: 1/30/2013 11:53:27 PM
Originally Posted By Ndenway:
Originally Posted By Grendelizer:


iirc the creedmoor is based off the 250savage as reloaders are fire forming affordable creedmoor cases out of 22-250 brass.



This and all of the about statements.

The creedmoor case is very similar to the 250 Savage Ackley Improved, with a case capacity of about 52 g of water.

The Gren. has a case capacity of about 35 g of water.

helotaxi
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Posted: 1/31/2013 11:17:26 AM
The 6.5 Creedmoor was designed specifically to fit in a standard rifle action without giving up powder capacity when used with long bullets. That is the functional difference between it and the .260 Rem.

The Grendel is awesome for what it can do in an AR15. The Creedmoor is not constrained by AR15 mag lengths and is in a totally different class, performance wise. The velocity difference between the two is significant.
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LRRPF52
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Posted: 1/31/2013 2:50:54 PM
Originally Posted By helotaxi:
The 6.5 Creedmoor was designed specifically to fit in a standard rifle action without giving up powder capacity when used with long bullets. That is the functional difference between it and the .260 Rem.

The Grendel is awesome for what it can do in an AR15. The Creedmoor is not constrained by AR15 mag lengths and is in a totally different class, performance wise. The velocity difference between the two is significant.


I've been trying to dispel this for some time. There is no penalty with the 140gr VLD class of projectiles with the .260 Remington. When loaded to SAAMI 2.800" COL, you still have .100" of bearing surface protruding from the neck with the .260 Remington. You also have the same shoulder length, shoulder angle, and feeding characteristics as the .308, so it works great from .308 magazines.

6.5 Creedmoor is the 30 T?C from Hornady, necked down. The .300 Savage actually pre-dates the .308 Winchester, so while the .250 Savage is great to neck-up for 6.5 Creedmoor, the Creedmoor was still taken from a necked-down 30 T/C, Hornady's answer to the .260 Remington.

I would have preferred Hornady to just make .260 brass, and help keep things somewhat standardized for our .473" base, .308 case capacity classed cartridges, with more factory options for the .260 Rem supported by a major ammunition manufacturer who has a great line of 6.5mm projectiles.

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Posted: 1/31/2013 4:07:02 PM
someday I'd like to build a .260

still haven't quite decided on a AR10-style rifle or a bolt gun .....decisions
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BlahBlah
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Posted: 1/31/2013 4:16:19 PM
I am in the middle of a DPMS pattern "AR10" build and I'm debating between .260 and 6.5 Creedmoor (already have a handful of Grendels ). I'm not setup to reload either (yet) so the availability of reasonably priced 6.5 Creedmoor match ammo is a big plus. Hornady even prints the load details right on the box!

It seems the .260 is a pay-through-the-nose-or-reload deal when it comes to match ammo.
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Posted: 1/31/2013 4:48:20 PM
I like the Grendel,for shear velocity/ballistics there is no comparison. My 18" 264 ARP will push a 123gr Scenar to 2500 fps, my 18" 6.5x47 Lapua will push the same projectile to 2900.

600 yards is a fair distance to compare the 2

47L drops 75.5"
Grendel drops 107.3"

That is a trajectory difference of 31.8"

Wind drift assuming 10 mph constant cross wind, same distance

47L drifts 22.8"
Grendel drifts 29.2"

That is a drift difference 6.4"
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LRRPF52
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:44:34 AM
Phreakmode,

That's an 18" bolt gun, right? I'm getting 2850fps with my 22" .260 Rem gas gun, and that's at max loads with H4350.

Granted, the 6.5x47 Lapua is a high-pressure cartridge, using small rifle primers. One of my competition partners was able to run the 140gr Berger VLD at over 3000fps from his 25" RPA bolt gun, but primer pockets were loose after a few loads. He did make numerous consecutive hits with it at 900m like it was cool or something during FinnSniper 2010.

Between the 3 (.260 Rem, 6.5x47 Lapua, and 6.5 Creedmoor), the Lapua has the most impressive performance for case size, but is a single source for brass and factory-loaded ammo. That's why I went with the .260 Rem for the AR10-size gun. Brass availability and closeness to .308 cartridge feeding characteristics drove my decision at the end of the day.

When you look at the 123gr Scenar from an 18" Grendel, versus the 6.5x47 Lapua, that isn't a huge difference, considering how much faster the Lapua is by 300fps at the muzzle. Only 6.4" of wind drift worse at 600yds shows just how well the BC works in your favor with the 6.5's.

Between the Grendel and my .260 Rem, it made ever owning a .308 again pointless for me, since I have so many factory loads for the Grendel, and many good ones at that, and it feels so much more rewarding to deliver serious energy on-target from a little 16" AR15 carbine, compared to 5.56...another awesome little caliber, but nowhere near the Grendel's projectile weight class.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 3:13:56 PM
Can't forget about the .264-LBC-AR, 6.5 PPCX, 6.5 CSS, and 6.5 BPC (don't mess with that unless you're a gunsmith).

I'm in the process of building a .264-LBC-AR, Les Baer's version of the 6.5 Grendel. Minor differences in the chambering, .264-LBC-AR has a neck diameter of .295 and a 1.5 degree throat angle, whereas the 6.5 Grendel (SAAMI spec) has a neck diameter of .300 and a compounded throat angle. The only real difference is that people can actually get their hands on barrels and bolts as opposed to 6.5 Grendel stuff. AA has stopped selling barrel and bolt combos, bolts are backordered (go figure), and it's only selling completed uppers. Well, no thanks. The .264-LBC-AR has no issue handling 6.5 Grendel ammo, and BHW, Satern, and several other manufacturers make barrels.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 4:12:01 PM
Where can you "actually get your hands on" a 264LBC barrel right now?! I'm looking for another 20" heavy barrel right now, but nobody has them.
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Posted: 2/7/2013 8:56:13 PM
Originally Posted By BlahBlah:
Where can you "actually get your hands on" a 264LBC barrel right now?! I'm looking for another 20" heavy barrel right now, but nobody has them.


BHW wait time is right on 10-12 weeks at this time. At least you know it will not take forever.

Greg