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Posted: 9/13/2012 1:29:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2012 1:34:14 PM EST by Lazzirus]
I am tired of reading forums and blog posts where the writer badmouths the 300 Blackout! One common line of thinking among these naysayers is that the new round is less powerful than the .308, and therefore has nothing new to add to the hobby/sport/market. Is power the only criteria by which to judge a cartridge? If so, then it must be true that the LESS powerful it is, the BETTER it is. Why would I say that? Because the .22 Long Rifle is THE best-selling round of EVERY ammunition manufacturer who makes it. With this line of logic, the Blackout is better than the .308.

So, why shoot a 300 Blackout, when you can shoot a .308? Let me answer that question with some other questions. Why shoot a .22 WMR, when you can shoot a .220 Swift? Why shoot a 7mm-08, when you can shoot a 7mm STW? Why shoot a .45 ACP, when you can shoot a .454 Casull?

Another way to express what I’m getting at here is with this question: Why on earth would I shoot a .308, if a 300 Blackout is adequate for my purpose?

I would be willing to wager that much more than 90% of all rounds fired from all firearms in this country do not kill anything. The ammunition is purchased and used purely for pleasure. So who cares about killing power? There are a million uses for a firearm. There are a million preferences among the users of firearms. There are a million places to shoot a gun. All calibers and levels of power are useful to somebody, somewhere.

Another reason given by these haters to abandon the 300 Blackout is that we don’t “need” another new cartridge. That a man can spend his time and money as he wishes (no matter how dumb it seems to anyone else) is the purest evidence of how great America is.

I don’t have a need to say Chevy sucks in order to feel better about the Ford I drive. I drive a Ford because I want to. It may actually be inferior to your Chevy in every way, but I drive the Ford anyway because I WANT to.

I say, let’s take the 300 Blackout, and run with it. Then let’s neck the .300/5.56 case to .284, .277, .264, and .243 (Ruger already beat us to the .204). Then let’s neck it up to .338 and .358 just for fun. This is America, dammit!

P.S. Here is what I want a 300 Blackout for: I have a 50 pound, 10-year-old daughter who is very sensitive to recoil and muzzle blast. She loves to shoot and hunt and be with her dad. So, I bought her a “Youth” .243. The manufacture’s idea of a youth must be more along the lines of a strapping-ish sort of 14-year-old boy rather than a wispy shadow of a 10-year-old girl. My daughter cannot nestle into the stock and get a good sight picture due to the large size of the rifle. The short barrel of the gun makes the muzzle blast even more pronounced. The light weight of the gun makes the recoil slightly uncomfortable for me and intolerable for her. In short, she is scared of the gun and cannot use it accurately. I dream of a small, lightweight, short(ish) barreled rifle in a caliber that is just sufficient to take a deer, and is actually sized for a child (think of the Chipmunk rifle here). No one makes one. Wouldn’t a 16”-18” barreled, 8”-10” length of pull, 5lb, bolt-action rifle in 300 Blackout be perfect for children who are learning to love the shooting sports? I submit that it would. Whoever makes one first could also chamber it in .357 Magnum, .22 Hornet, .17 Fireball, and of course .223 just to name a few off the top of my head. I hope the manufacturers are listening.

So, to answer the question which is the title of his post: YES! If the .308 is overpowered for my needs.
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Posted: 9/13/2012 1:50:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2012 1:51:27 PM EST by 762x40mm]
OP: The 300 Blackout is better than the 308?

Then...

Poll: Which do you really prefer to shoot?

Then....

Define the mission for use as a youth rifle?????

That's a whole lotta fail in a first post

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7 > 6.8
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Posted: 9/13/2012 1:52:32 PM EST
Not better just different
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Posted: 9/13/2012 2:05:52 PM EST
OK, so after reading your wall of text it boils down to: Why has no one built a 300Blk in a bolt gun? Because it is very hard to build a production gun in that caliber that will shoot accurately. Savage tried and couldnt get it to work. Remmington has not been able to do it yet, and they are backing the round. I also think it would be a great idea, but your range limited with it. Inside 200yds, it will work just fine, after that your hold over becomes so great, that it really hampers your chances of making a hit on game. Now, if your just shooting paper, that doesnt matter. Call Pacnor, break out the child's college fund, and build yourself a bolt rifle for the kid to shoot.

FWIW: In my experiance a "lite" load in a 7mm-08 or 308 kicks less than a "lite" 243 load, slower powder makes for a push instead of a snap.

If you really want something easy for her to shoot, pick up a Ruger 44 carbine, a Marlin 357 lever gun, or have a smith install a mercury recoil reducer into the stock of that 243. For the most part, they will still be lighter than your average AR platform.

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Posted: 9/13/2012 2:23:37 PM EST
Well with anything in life the answer lies with a simple two words... It depends. If your daughter is recoil sensitive and has a issue with length of pull I would suggest the new tc dimension. You can adjust the stock length as well as the caliber. So as she grows the rifle can be adjusted to fit her. You could start out with .223 or .22-250 both good calibers. From the experience of being a kid once(at 10 I was about 70 lbs) I was given a .308 Winchester model 70 featherweight and at the same time found out there was no Santa because everyone knows guns and Santa don't mix. In hindsight I probably should have started with something like a .223-.300 or something similar. As I developed a habit of jerking my shots from the recoil. I still struggle with this on occasion. So I would recommend until she hits puberty in a couple few years and grows like most young kids do. Is setting her up with something like a .223 or .300 blk is a good idea. Personally I always hunted with my dad but didn't get to actually pull the trigger on one until I was 12 or so. However, If I was you I would perhaps just work on mechanics of soothing and setting your daughter up for being a successful shooter/hunter growing up. In the mean time just enjoy the outdoors with your daughter and keep up the good work. It says a lot about you in trying to find something more suitable for your kid.
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Posted: 9/13/2012 2:30:32 PM EST
I'm assuming semi autos are not legal for hunting?

Build a side charging .300 blackout AR with no gas system.
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Posted: 9/13/2012 2:53:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2012 2:57:35 PM EST by ztug]
Originally Posted By Lazzirus:
I am tired of reading forums and blog posts where the writer badmouths the 300 Blackout! One common line of thinking among these naysayers is that the new round is less powerful than the .308, and therefore has nothing new to add to the hobby/sport/market. Is power the only criteria by which to judge a cartridge? If so, then it must be true that the LESS powerful it is, the BETTER it is. Why would I say that? Because the .22 Long Rifle is THE best-selling round of EVERY ammunition manufacturer who makes it. With this line of logic, the Blackout is better than the .308.

So, why shoot a 300 Blackout, when you can shoot a .308? Let me answer that question with some other questions. Why shoot a .22 WMR, when you can shoot a .220 Swift? Why shoot a 7mm-08, when you can shoot a 7mm STW? Why shoot a .45 ACP, when you can shoot a .454 Casull?

Another way to express what I’m getting at here is with this question: Why on earth would I shoot a .308, if a 300 Blackout is adequate for my purpose?

I would be willing to wager that much more than 90% of all rounds fired from all firearms in this country do not kill anything. The ammunition is purchased and used purely for pleasure. So who cares about killing power? There are a million uses for a firearm. There are a million preferences among the users of firearms. There are a million places to shoot a gun. All calibers and levels of power are useful to somebody, somewhere.

Another reason given by these haters to abandon the 300 Blackout is that we don’t “need” another new cartridge. That a man can spend his time and money as he wishes (no matter how dumb it seems to anyone else) is the purest evidence of how great America is.

I don’t have a need to say Chevy sucks in order to feel better about the Ford I drive. I drive a Ford because I want to. It may actually be inferior to your Chevy in every way, but I drive the Ford anyway because I WANT to.

I say, let’s take the 300 Blackout, and run with it. Then let’s neck the .300/5.56 case to .284, .277, .264, and .243 (Ruger already beat us to the .204). Then let’s neck it up to .338 and .358 just for fun. This is America, dammit!

P.S. Here is what I want a 300 Blackout for: I have a 50 pound, 10-year-old daughter who is very sensitive to recoil and muzzle blast. She loves to shoot and hunt and be with her dad. So, I bought her a “Youth” .243. The manufacture’s idea of a youth must be more along the lines of a strapping-ish sort of 14-year-old boy rather than a wispy shadow of a 10-year-old girl. My daughter cannot nestle into the stock and get a good sight picture due to the large size of the rifle. The short barrel of the gun makes the muzzle blast even more pronounced. The light weight of the gun makes the recoil slightly uncomfortable for me and intolerable for her. In short, she is scared of the gun and cannot use it accurately. I dream of a small, lightweight, short(ish) barreled rifle in a caliber that is just sufficient to take a deer, and is actually sized for a child (think of the Chipmunk rifle here). No one makes one. Wouldn’t a 16”-18” barreled, 8”-10” length of pull, 5lb, bolt-action rifle in 300 Blackout be perfect for children who are learning to love the shooting sports? I submit that it would. Whoever makes one first could also chamber it in .357 Magnum, .22 Hornet, .17 Fireball, and of course .223 just to name a few off the top of my head. I hope the manufacturers are listening.

So, to answer the question which is the title of his post: YES! If the .308 is overpowered for my needs.


+1
A lot more enjoyable to shoot with my AR 15 than lugging around an AR 10. Anything you can take with a .308, you can take with a 300BLK, you just can't do it from as far away.

What about the new 300BLK Handi Rifle? Too big? Then there is always the pink Ruger 10/22, she couldn't actually hunt with it but she could sure have a lot of fun shooting paper and tin cans with dad!


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Posted: 9/13/2012 3:12:21 PM EST
Depends on the needs. The .308 has ass kickin power for sure but it comes at a price of recoil, blast and weight. After my first LR shoot, I can say the .308 is not very impressive past 5-600yds. Until then, I thought it was the heat for a .30 cal. Now I'm looking at a 6BR as it is a ass kicker for LR shooting.

The 300blk makes a kick ass sub gun and can throw .30 cal bullets at the same levels as a AK. Not to bad from a AR..

There are many other choices out there than either though.
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Posted: 9/13/2012 3:37:16 PM EST
Thanks for all your thoughtful posts. Some good food for my brain to chew on and some courses of possible action too.
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Posted: 9/13/2012 3:41:11 PM EST
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Posted: 9/13/2012 3:43:37 PM EST
Tough call, but I think Fords are better than bananas.

I have both and like both for different reasons. The Rem 700 is my AT&T gun –– reach out and touch someone. The 300 is a lot more economical to shoot and good out to 150 - 200 yards. When it's time to frag the errant 'yote in the back field, I grab the 300 BLK.
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Posted: 9/13/2012 3:57:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2012 4:00:56 PM EST by jasonusvi]
Get a sub $400 AAC Handi in 300BLK and let her get comfortable the feel via subs before moving up to supers.

Can probably pick up a youth stock and hold on to the original for the future.



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Posted: 9/13/2012 6:14:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Get a sub $400 AAC Handi in 300BLK and let her get comfortable the feel via subs before moving up to supers.

Can probably pick up a youth stock and hold on to the original for the future.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/bullseye_doc/005-1.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/bullseye_doc/012.jpg


Man, that would be such a badass little rifle to suppress.
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Posted: 9/14/2012 6:38:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Get a sub $400 AAC Handi in 300BLK and let her get comfortable the feel via subs before moving up to supers.

Can probably pick up a youth stock and hold on to the original for the future.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/bullseye_doc/005-1.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/bullseye_doc/012.jpg


This is probably the best answer for your problems right now. If that doesn't work then there probably isnt a rifle that is out right now that is going to work for you.

I want one.
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Posted: 9/14/2012 7:22:36 AM EST
I put my 300 blackout in my Chevy and take it with me everytime i go to the range lol. It fits the bill for everything i want it to do. One of them handi rifles though would be awesome for what you're wanting.
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Posted: 9/14/2012 1:10:16 PM EST
Flame suit on, it all depends on how far you are shooting at least for me.

.300 BLK-Subsonic–– 100 yards maybe out to 200 for shits and giggles, but really under 100.

.300 BLK-Supersonic––out to 300 yards for me,

.308 Win./7.62 NATO––farther than I can shoot and still hit a normal sized target,

Different gun, caliber, sub or super, for different tasks.

That 338 Lapua Magnum will sure as shit fuck somebody up at 5-7 yards when you kick in the door, but there are better choices to choose from for that task. By the same token a .45ACP is not the best option to take a 2000 yard shot. Different tasks different guns and calibers.

GO BUY MORE TOYS If there is "one best gun to do everything" most better never let thier wife know this.
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Posted: 9/14/2012 5:09:10 PM EST
Look at it this way.

A .308 winchester 110gr Hornady TAP leaves a 24 inch barrel at 3165fps and by 250 yards its at about 2370fps and at 825 yards is running aound 300ft lbs of energy and 1109 fps

a .300 AAC Blackout 110gr Barnes Vortx leaves a 16 inch barrel at 2350 fps at at about 575 yards is 300ft lbs of energy and 1111 fps


It doesn't have the range of a .308 but it still packs a lot of power into a smaller lighter package that is compatible with every part of the AR15 platform Minus the barrel.
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Posted: 9/14/2012 7:16:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Look at it this way.

A .308 winchester 110gr Hornady TAP leaves a 24 inch barrel at 3165fps and by 250 yards its at about 2370fps and at 825 yards is running aound 300ft lbs of energy and 1109 fps

a .300 AAC Blackout 110gr Barnes Vortx leaves a 16 inch barrel at 2350 fps at at about 575 yards is 300ft lbs of energy and 1111 fps


It doesn't have the range of a .308 but it still packs a lot of power into a smaller lighter package that is compatible with every part of the AR15 platform Minus the barrel.

That is the info I remembered but I couldn't find. I've been saying for a while, Anything you can shoot with a .308, you can shoot with a 300BLK, just not from as far away! Now we know how much .
250 yards less
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Posted: 9/14/2012 7:55:05 PM EST
What sort of comparison is that ??
If you want to compare, then compare a bullet that works well at long distance in the 308 and not a 110 grainer just because.....

308 - 208 gr amax pushed at 2600 will be super sonic out to 1400 yards and have 555 FPE at 1400 and 950 FPE at 1000 yards.



Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Look at it this way.

A .308 winchester 110gr Hornady TAP leaves a 24 inch barrel at 3165fps and by 250 yards its at about 2370fps and at 825 yards is running aound 300ft lbs of energy and 1109 fps

a .300 AAC Blackout 110gr Barnes Vortx leaves a 16 inch barrel at 2350 fps at at about 575 yards is 300ft lbs of energy and 1111 fps


It doesn't have the range of a .308 but it still packs a lot of power into a smaller lighter package that is compatible with every part of the AR15 platform Minus the barrel.


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Posted: 9/14/2012 7:56:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By ztug:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Look at it this way.

A .308 winchester 110gr Hornady TAP leaves a 24 inch barrel at 3165fps and by 250 yards its at about 2370fps and at 825 yards is running aound 300ft lbs of energy and 1109 fps

a .300 AAC Blackout 110gr Barnes Vortx leaves a 16 inch barrel at 2350 fps at at about 575 yards is 300ft lbs of energy and 1111 fps


It doesn't have the range of a .308 but it still packs a lot of power into a smaller lighter package that is compatible with every part of the AR15 platform Minus the barrel.

That is the info I remembered but I couldn't find. I've been saying for a while, Anything you can shoot with a .308, you can shoot with a 300BLK, just not from as far away! Now we know how much .
250 yards less


FAIL - Try again

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Posted: 9/15/2012 4:58:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By tammons:
Originally Posted By ztug:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Look at it this way.

A .308 winchester 110gr Hornady TAP leaves a 24 inch barrel at 3165fps and by 250 yards its at about 2370fps and at 825 yards is running aound 300ft lbs of energy and 1109 fps

a .300 AAC Blackout 110gr Barnes Vortx leaves a 16 inch barrel at 2350 fps at at about 575 yards is 300ft lbs of energy and 1111 fps


It doesn't have the range of a .308 but it still packs a lot of power into a smaller lighter package that is compatible with every part of the AR15 platform Minus the barrel.

That is the info I remembered but I couldn't find. I've been saying for a while, Anything you can shoot with a .308, you can shoot with a 300BLK, just not from as far away! Now we know how much .
250 yards less


FAIL - Try again


LOl, no joke
They just keep twisting things trying to make themselves think it will out perform a 308.
The 308 hold twice as much powder, there is no way in hell a blk will ever out perform a 308 using the same bullets.


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Posted: 9/15/2012 5:43:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2012 5:45:06 AM EST by tammons]
Full on Retard.

I dont know what it is about pride of ownership that causes people to lose all common sense.
A lot of these 300 blk hardcore fans are just plain nuts with the crap they come up with.

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Posted: 9/15/2012 5:44:39 AM EST
I like the .300blk for what it is, but I'll never put in the same class as .308.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 6:24:09 AM EST
The poll actually reads which is more fun to shoot. OP should change the meaningless and baiting "better" in the thread title.

Is 300BLK better? No, the question is too vague. Each better at some things than the other.

Is 300BLK a more efficient cartridge? Almost without question for a semi auto. I think that is one of the fun things about it. With subs you can send 15oz of lead downrange in less than 10 seconds using less than 300 grains of powder. Energy is never expended breaking the sound barrier and so it retains a substantial proportion of its original energy through flight. Given high quality high BC SMKs it probably allows among the highest levels of subsonic performance possible over any distance.

Is the 300BLK the most exciting (supported and standardized) AR option available to a mass audience in decades? Probably.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 9:41:35 AM EST
Right over everyone's head...

The point was that if the .308 is good enough to shoot something with past 250 yards out to 1000+ yards then the .300 blackout is sufficient within its 500-600 yard range. It will not out shoot the .308 in anyway whatsoever and its nowhere near as powerful but it has similar ballistics from 0 to 600 yards as a .308 has from 250 to 800 yards using a compatible bullet weight loaded in commercial self defense/ hunting ammunition.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 10:06:31 AM EST
Same old Sh!+. The incessant marketing campaign for this cartridge is annoying.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 10:34:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2012 10:36:26 AM EST by pavlovwolf]
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Right over everyone's head...

The point was that if the .308 is good enough to shoot something with past 250 yards out to 1000+ yards then the .300 blackout is sufficient within its 500-600 yard range. It will not out shoot the .308 in anyway whatsoever and its nowhere near as powerful but it has similar ballistics from 0 to 600 yards as a .308 has from 250 to 800 yards using a compatible bullet weight loaded in commercial self defense/ hunting ammunition.


Dude, what ballistics charts are you reading. Holy shit, 500-600 yards? It's not even close. My God you people are on crack. Try 0-300.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 11:30:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Right over everyone's head...

The point was that if the .308 is good enough to shoot something with past 250 yards out to 1000+ yards then the .300 blackout is sufficient within its 500-600 yard range. It will not out shoot the .308 in anyway whatsoever and its nowhere near as powerful but it has similar ballistics from 0 to 600 yards as a .308 has from 250 to 800 yards using a compatible bullet weight loaded in commercial self defense/ hunting ammunition.


Dude, what ballistics charts are you reading. Holy shit, 500-600 yards? It's not even close. My God you people are on crack. Try 0-300.






These are based on 110gr loads. Obviously with bullets over 150gr the .308 edges it out but even then a 150gr bullet At 1000fps is still going to do damage.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 11:53:00 AM EST
Your velocity is severely flawed. A 168gr SMK will do 2450fps from a 16"Recon barrel. I had a DPMS. 308 LR. Factory FG.. chronographed from my barrel was over 2450. A 110gr wpuld be much higher. TAP in the 110 is 2850fps from a 16" barrel. Run those numbers again. A 150gr16" surplus round is 2650fps, your numbers are way off. Even my little 6.8 with a 16"barrel pushes a 110gr to over 2700fps, hand loads and Wilson factory loads.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 12:00:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2012 12:06:13 PM EST by charles_lee_ray]
The MV of the 110gr .308 TAP is 3165 FPS *with a 24 inch barrel*. The 2551 is at 200 yards.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 12:09:44 PM EST
Here it is based on your 16 inch barrel numbers for the .308 TAP

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Posted: 9/15/2012 12:10:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Right over everyone's head...

The point was that if the .308 is good enough to shoot something with past 250 yards out to 1000+ yards then the .300 blackout is sufficient within its 500-600 yard range. It will not out shoot the .308 in anyway whatsoever and its nowhere near as powerful but it has similar ballistics from 0 to 600 yards as a .308 has from 250 to 800 yards using a compatible bullet weight loaded in commercial self defense/ hunting ammunition.


Dude, what ballistics charts are you reading. Holy shit, 500-600 yards? It's not even close. My God you people are on crack. Try 0-300.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Sniper2160/206677E0-6E98-43DC-A493-BDEF9C97128D-7422-000007A5EAB17E65.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Sniper2160/76BD4CF3-F158-48D4-8963-8E429A3887D7-7422-000007A5F1C35D01.jpg

These are based on 110gr loads. Obviously with bullets over 150gr the .308 edges it out but even then a 150gr bullet At 1000fps is still going to do damage.



I think I understand what you're trying to say?????

The 300 Blackout is going to produce similar energy at the muzzle and out to 200 yds as 50 BMG does at 30,000 yds....and would make a better choice for hunting Blue Whales because they would be closer and easier to see than at 30,000 yds????




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Posted: 9/15/2012 12:14:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2012 12:17:05 PM EST by tammons]
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Right over everyone's head...

The point was that if the .308 is good enough to shoot something with past 250 yards out to 1000+ yards then the .300 blackout is sufficient within its 500-600 yard range. It will not out shoot the .308 in anyway whatsoever and its nowhere near as powerful but it has similar ballistics from 0 to 600 yards as a .308 has from 250 to 800 yards using a compatible bullet weight loaded in commercial self defense/ hunting ammunition.


Thats the most idiotic biased comparison I have ever read in my life.

You are basing a light bullet load in the 308 to make the 300 blk look better by comparison.

Okay here you go - real world - if you want to talk about long distance shooting - this vs that.
Use these loads -

300 blk best hottest long distance load you can find vs 308 best long distance load.
Both 20" bbls
Just to be friendly we will look at a 125 pill out of a 300 blk at 2325 - 1000 FPE at 200 yards.

My old 308 with a 20" bbl will spit out a 208 gr amax at 2500 fps over RL17 - 1000 FPE at 900 yards.

So the correct comparison should be whatever you can kill with a 308 at 900 yards matches the 300 blk at 200 yards.

The 300 blk is a decent weapon within its limitations and from Subs to super with no changes is nice, but in the end its nothing special.
Just basically 30-30 Ballistics that you can shoot sub-sonic, so get real, if its not too late.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

You guys, (whoever you are pushing this BS) will never be able to convince people with the least bit of common sense that the 300 blk is right for every situation.
So far I read its its almost as good as a 308, perfect for hunting at 300 yards (lob em in at 650 FPE), great for Black bear hunting, Cougars, Deer, Hogs.

Pretty soon somebody is bound to start yacking about taking one to AK to hunt Moose or taking one to Africa.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 12:17:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By 762x40mm:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Right over everyone's head...

The point was that if the .308 is good enough to shoot something with past 250 yards out to 1000+ yards then the .300 blackout is sufficient within its 500-600 yard range. It will not out shoot the .308 in anyway whatsoever and its nowhere near as powerful but it has similar ballistics from 0 to 600 yards as a .308 has from 250 to 800 yards using a compatible bullet weight loaded in commercial self defense/ hunting ammunition.


Dude, what ballistics charts are you reading. Holy shit, 500-600 yards? It's not even close. My God you people are on crack. Try 0-300.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Sniper2160/206677E0-6E98-43DC-A493-BDEF9C97128D-7422-000007A5EAB17E65.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Sniper2160/76BD4CF3-F158-48D4-8963-8E429A3887D7-7422-000007A5F1C35D01.jpg

These are based on 110gr loads. Obviously with bullets over 150gr the .308 edges it out but even then a 150gr bullet At 1000fps is still going to do damage.



I think I understand what you're trying to say?????

The 300 Blackout is going to produce similar energy at the muzzle and out to 200 yds as 50 BMG does at 30,000 yds....and would make a better choice for hunting Blue Whales because they would be closer and easier to see than at 30,000 yds????






1900 yards, but close enough.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 12:28:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Originally Posted By 762x40mm:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Right over everyone's head...

The point was that if the .308 is good enough to shoot something with past 250 yards out to 1000+ yards then the .300 blackout is sufficient within its 500-600 yard range. It will not out shoot the .308 in anyway whatsoever and its nowhere near as powerful but it has similar ballistics from 0 to 600 yards as a .308 has from 250 to 800 yards using a compatible bullet weight loaded in commercial self defense/ hunting ammunition.


Dude, what ballistics charts are you reading. Holy shit, 500-600 yards? It's not even close. My God you people are on crack. Try 0-300.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Sniper2160/206677E0-6E98-43DC-A493-BDEF9C97128D-7422-000007A5EAB17E65.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Sniper2160/76BD4CF3-F158-48D4-8963-8E429A3887D7-7422-000007A5F1C35D01.jpg

These are based on 110gr loads. Obviously with bullets over 150gr the .308 edges it out but even then a 150gr bullet At 1000fps is still going to do damage.



I think I understand what you're trying to say?????

The 300 Blackout is going to produce similar energy at the muzzle and out to 200 yds as 50 BMG does at 30,000 yds....and would make a better choice for hunting Blue Whales because they would be closer and easier to see than at 30,000 yds????






1900 yards, but close enough.


Holy shit....you mean I can stop shooting Blue Whale at 30,000 yds and do it at 1,900 and it'll be like doing it with a Blackout off the swim platform? ???....crap, I gotta tell my buds they don't have to shoot them big ole 7 mags at them moose at 500 yds....just walk right up on'em and put a 110 in their ear....I never knew this shit could be so easy....

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Posted: 9/15/2012 12:35:50 PM EST
Silvers has mixed up some Jim Jones extra strength koolaid.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 12:39:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2012 12:42:40 PM EST by LRRPF52]
I've been purposely avoiding this thread for obvious reasons. Well, I took a peek in and confirmed that my original instinct was correct.

.308 is not a good 1000yd cartridge. It's more like a 600yd cartridge in realistic winds, if we're talking 1st-round hit probability, in the hands of an experienced and well-trained shooter.

Since I don't own a 300 BLK yet, I guess I'm missing out on its insane capabilities at ranges I never figured a 20-something grain case capacity could produce, pushing .30 cal pills.

Are there any people posting real downrange results with the .300 BLK that even hint at .308 territory, or is it all inference from running numbers, not really having seen what it will do on steel at 400+ yards? This is madness. Yes, I know. I can walk a .300 BLK onto steel at 400yds, after a correction or 3, and hear impact, but how many MOA/Mils will that take.

Ok, even from a 16" barrel with the 110 Barnes, at 2397fps, it is garbage...like rainbow, no energy trajectory and loss of oompf:

       Range    Velocity    Energy     Trajectory         TOF          Drift

(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (inches) (sec) (inches)
0 2397 1403 -2.70 0.0000 0.00
50 2253 1240 -0.49 0.0645 -0.35
100 2115 1092 0.00 0.1333 -1.43
150 1981 958 -1.45 0.2066 -3.32
200 1852 838 -5.12 0.2849 -6.09
250 1730 731 -11.33 0.3687 -9.83
300 1613 636 -20.45 0.4585 -14.63
350 1504 553 -32.91 0.5548 -20.57
400 1403 481 -49.21 0.6581 -27.74
450 1311 420 -69.94 0.7687 -36.21
500 1229 369 -95.73 0.8870 -46.01


There's a reason this thing was specifically meant for sub-sonic applications in the AR15 originally. For hunting, you're looking at a 150yd cartridge from a 16" barrel, maybe 200yd if you push it.

There is no comparing a 20gr case capacity with 47gr, pushing the same diameter bullets. It's illogical to do so, unless your point is to say one is black, and the other white. Here's a comparison for you:

16" 5.56/.223 Wylde chamber, pushing 62gr Barnes TTSX at 2900fps:

       Range    Velocity    Energy     Trajectory         TOF          Drift

(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (inches) (sec) (inches)
0 2900 1158 -2.70 0.0000 0.00
50 2739 1033 -0.77 0.0532 -0.27
100 2583 919 -0.00 0.1096 -1.09
150 2433 815 -0.53 0.1695 -2.52
200 2288 721 -2.54 0.2330 -4.61
250 2148 635 -6.20 0.3007 -7.41
300 2013 558 -11.75 0.3728 -11.01
350 1884 488 -19.45 0.4498 -15.47
400 1759 426 -29.60 0.5322 -20.87
450 1642 371 -42.56 0.6205 -27.30
500 1530 322 -58.75 0.7152 -34.86
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Posted: 9/15/2012 1:27:27 PM EST
.308 for me.
"They're telling us they'd rather die than come out and surrender....so.. They're gonna die..."


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Posted: 9/15/2012 1:37:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
I've been purposely avoiding this thread for obvious reasons. Well, I took a peek in and confirmed that my original instinct was correct.


The thread was doomed from reading the title. The only common thing the 300blk and .308 have is they both use a .30cal pill, after that, no comparison at all.

LOL @ some of these guys.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 1:43:29 PM EST


Dag nabbit LRRPF52....now there you go interjecting logic into a completly irrational discussion

Several years ago I built a stinkey nasty non-compliant 24" 300-221 CZ-527 to test the velocity and long-range (cough-cough) capabilities of a 20gr .30 cartridge very similar to the one being discussed in this thread ......



Short range ( ~ 300yds ) it was a pretty solid performer....



to the best of my knowledge it's the only 24" around these parts.....and it actually helpped to lead to 7.62x40 walking the shoulder with 1680......the 18.5gr 300-221 velocity of ~2,400fps, fell....and fell hard compared to 26gr of 1680 of the 40.......I shot the rifle out to 500yds a good bit before rechambering it.....

The definition of "universal", means.......fits nothing....

I guess I just need to learn to shoot stuff closer
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Posted: 9/15/2012 2:01:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By tammons:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Right over everyone's head...

The point was that if the .308 is good enough to shoot something with past 250 yards out to 1000+ yards then the .300 blackout is sufficient within its 500-600 yard range. It will not out shoot the .308 in anyway whatsoever and its nowhere near as powerful but it has similar ballistics from 0 to 600 yards as a .308 has from 250 to 800 yards using a compatible bullet weight loaded in commercial self defense/ hunting ammunition.


Thats the most idiotic biased comparison I have ever read in my life.

You are basing a light bullet load in the 308 to make the 300 blk look better by comparison.

Okay here you go - real world - if you want to talk about long distance shooting - this vs that.
Use these loads -

300 blk best hottest long distance load you can find vs 308 best long distance load.
Both 20" bbls
Just to be friendly we will look at a 125 pill out of a 300 blk at 2325 - 1000 FPE at 200 yards.

My old 308 with a 20" bbl will spit out a 208 gr amax at 2500 fps over RL17 - 1000 FPE at 900 yards.

So the correct comparison should be whatever you can kill with a 308 at 900 yards matches the 300 blk at 200 yards.

The 300 blk is a decent weapon within its limitations and from Subs to super with no changes is nice, but in the end its nothing special.
Just basically 30-30 Ballistics that you can shoot sub-sonic, so get real, if its not too late.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

You guys, (whoever you are pushing this BS) will never be able to convince people with the least bit of common sense that the 300 blk is right for every situation.
So far I read its its almost as good as a 308, perfect for hunting at 300 yards (lob em in at 650 FPE), great for Black bear hunting, Cougars, Deer, Hogs.

Pretty soon somebody is bound to start yacking about taking one to AK to hunt Moose or taking one to Africa.


Id never recommend it for hunting bear.
Im not talking about Long distance shooting.

Lets use your comparison

a 208gr AMAX with a BC of 0.648 leaving the muzzle of a 20" barrel at 2500fps will be running at 2174 fps and 2182ft lbs of energy at 250 yards and at 900 yards will be around 1457fps and 980 ft lbs.

a Corbon 125gr Nosler BT from a .300 Blackout 16" barrel (20" barrel negates the benefits of having a lighter smaller rifle.) starts out at 2250fps and around 200 yards is 1923 fps and 962ft lbs and at 400 yards is 1458fps and 590ft lbs

What Ive been saying this whole time is that the .308 winchester is effective out to 1000+ yards, It is undoubtedly More Powerful than a .300 Blackout, the .300 blackout does not come anywhere near what the .308 is capable of in terms of Range, and in terms of short range power, But what i am saying is that for a short distance after 250 yards the .308 and at the muzzle for .300blk that they share similar velocity and Energy for a few hundred yards.

2250 fps and 1405ft lbs through 1458fps and 590ft lbs is still Lethal, It WILL NOT have the range of the .308, But in these shorter distances it is still powerful enough, but with the advantages of Less Muzzle Blast (.308 out of a 16 inch barrel is a fireball) a Lighter weapon platform (AR-10 vs AR-15). You will also not have great success with a .308 from a 10 inch or even shorter barrel.

YES the .308 handles heavier bullets and Blows away the .300 blackout once they get past 155gr bullets.

NO the .300blk isnt the end all be all, but it does provide a light weight platform with more energy than a standard 5.56.

So In my Opinion:

The .300 Blackout is a better choice for 0-600 yards.
The .308 is a better choice from 0-1000+ yards

But the .308 will be heavier, and if you dont need the extra range then why not go for the .300 blackout instead?
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Posted: 9/15/2012 2:30:31 PM EST
Using that logic I need to find out where my......



and the 300 Blackouts external ballistics overlap and I've got me a new deer slayer......

760 needs more MAGPUL
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Posted: 9/15/2012 2:37:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2012 2:40:43 PM EST by WVHunter1s1k]
This is a funny thread!

I'd love to quote Abe Lincoln. But, I'd get a strike (AKA A nasty PM from a mod).
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Posted: 9/15/2012 3:01:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:

But what i am saying is that for a short distance after 250 yards the .308 and at the muzzle for .300blk that they share similar velocity and Energy for a few hundred yards.

The .300 Blackout is a better choice for 0-600 yards.
The .308 is a better choice from 0-1000+ yards



FAIL - Try Again.

LOL 300 blk better choice to 600 yards ??

Pride of ownership = Total loss of common sense.

The 300 blk is a good choice not a better choice out to the distance where it carries the min FPE that is takes to kill an animal HUMANLY and for subs
if you are into that.

More energy is not necessarily wasted energy either and although 800 FPE is a good rule of thumb for Deer, if a 250-300# 16 point buck walks by another
400+ FPE and or a bigger bullet is a good thing.

Gees, even my 25-223 load I am working on carries over 850 FPE past 450 yards.
Thats at 500' ASL.

The 300 blk just does not hold enough powder to be anything but a 200-250 yard round.



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Posted: 9/15/2012 3:23:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By WVHunter1s1k:
This is a funny thread!

I'd love to quote Abe Lincoln. But, I'd get a strike (AKA A nasty PM from a mod).


I agree....funny

But the thread has un-plowed something that has been on my mind, and surely on the mind of long range marksmen for the last 100 years......they've been doing it wrong.......just close range to target and put some GSR on it......

"POINT BLANK RANGE.......it settles all ballistic inadequacies"

that's some tag-line shit right there......
" The only way I got to keep them Tigers busy is to let them shoot holes in me..."

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Posted: 9/15/2012 3:29:55 PM EST
I have an Uncle that hunted at 25-30 yards out of a blind with a rifle and that is it.
I dont even think he would squeeze one off at 50 yds.
He was quite a character.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 4:07:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Originally Posted By tammons:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Right over everyone's head...

The point was that if the .308 is good enough to shoot something with past 250 yards out to 1000+ yards then the .300 blackout is sufficient within its 500-600 yard range. It will not out shoot the .308 in anyway whatsoever and its nowhere near as powerful but it has similar ballistics from 0 to 600 yards as a .308 has from 250 to 800 yards using a compatible bullet weight loaded in commercial self defense/ hunting ammunition.


Thats the most idiotic biased comparison I have ever read in my life.

You are basing a light bullet load in the 308 to make the 300 blk look better by comparison.

Okay here you go - real world - if you want to talk about long distance shooting - this vs that.
Use these loads -


300 blk best hottest long distance load you can find vs 308 best long distance load.
Both 20" bbls
Just to be friendly we will look at a 125 pill out of a 300 blk at 2325 - 1000 FPE at 200 yards.

My old 308 with a 20" bbl will spit out a 208 gr amax at 2500 fps over RL17 - 1000 FPE at 900 yards.

So the correct comparison should be whatever you can kill with a 308 at 900 yards matches the 300 blk at 200 yards.

The 300 blk is a decent weapon within its limitations and from Subs to super with no changes is nice, but in the end its nothing special.
Just basically 30-30 Ballistics that you can shoot sub-sonic, so get real, if its not too late.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

You guys, (whoever you are pushing this BS) will never be able to convince people with the least bit of common sense that the 300 blk is right for every situation.
So far I read its its almost as good as a 308, perfect for hunting at 300 yards (lob em in at 650 FPE), great for Black bear hunting, Cougars, Deer, Hogs.

Pretty soon somebody is bound to start yacking about taking one to AK to hunt Moose or taking one to Africa.


Id never recommend it for hunting bear.
Im not talking about Long distance shooting.

Lets use your comparison

a 208gr AMAX with a BC of 0.648 leaving the muzzle of a 20" barrel at 2500fps will be running at 2174 fps and 2182ft lbs of energy at 250 yards and at 900 yards will be around 1457fps and 980 ft lbs.

a Corbon 125gr Nosler BT from a .300 Blackout 16" barrel (20" barrel negates the benefits of having a lighter smaller rifle.) starts out at 2250fps and around 200 yards is 1923 fps and 962ft lbs and at 400 yards is 1458fps and 590ft lbs

What Ive been saying this whole time is that the .308 winchester is effective out to 1000+ yards, It is undoubtedly More Powerful than a .300 Blackout, the .300 blackout does not come anywhere near what the .308 is capable of in terms of Range, and in terms of short range power, But what i am saying is that for a short distance after 250 yards the .308 and at the muzzle for .300blk that they share similar velocity and Energy for a few hundred yards.

2250 fps and 1405ft lbs through 1458fps and 590ft lbs is still Lethal, It WILL NOT have the range of the .308, But in these shorter distances it is still powerful enough, but with the advantages of Less Muzzle Blast (.308 out of a 16 inch barrel is a fireball) a Lighter weapon platform (AR-10 vs AR-15). You will also not have great success with a .308 from a 10 inch or even shorter barrel.

YES the .308 handles heavier bullets and Blows away the .300 blackout once they get past 155gr bullets.

NO the .300blk isnt the end all be all, but it does provide a light weight platform with more energy than a standard 5.56.

So In my Opinion:

The .300 Blackout is a better choice for 0-600 yards.
The .308 is a better choice from 0-1000+ yards

But the .308 will be heavier, and if you dont need the extra range then why not go for the .300 blackout instead?

I understand you . I found that I would much rather carry a Springfield than a Garrand. Not because it was a better weapon but because it was lighter. and the chance of actually needing the capabilities of the Garrand was nil on campus If , as here in Florida, you are not shooting anything at 500 yards, let alone a 1,000 why would you want to carry a bigger heavier gun when you could carry a smaller lighter one that would do the job just as well at the 100 to 200 yards that you would be taking a shot at. If the 300BLK can shoot through a hog and come out the other side does it really matter how much farther the .308 will travel after it exits? Shot through is shot through .
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Posted: 9/15/2012 5:03:02 PM EST
,ZZtug, you are absolutely correct. There are many good reasons to choose a 300BLK, Nd that is one. A perfectly acceptable scenario. Anything you can take with a 30-30 at a bit more than 30-30 ranges. A lightweight package to boot. Add the supppressor and sub capabilities and you have a great round. Plus the other assets. If people would just look at what the real positives are, and not blow it up into something it isn't there wouldn't be so many vitriolic comments. Silvers is guilty of over hyping it in some cases and has fed this hysteria. His personality and overreaching gorilla marketing style has turned a good number of people off. This will likely be the lever action 30-30 deer gun of our day if he'll start letting someone else be the PR rep. I will be building one myself, but I won't use anything Temington, and my suppressor will not be AAC, nor will I buy any Rem ammo or components.

For light weight and longer ranges, the 6.8 and 6.5 will carry the day, and the 6.8 just got a big boost with LWRC confirming the new rifle, PMags, and Federal's entry into the anmunition field with an ad in the latesr Shotgun News.

The. 300 would do most of what I would see hunting here, except I do have access to a few fields that are over 400 yards, and I do shoot my 6.8 out to 750 yards a few times a year at milk jugs, silhouettes and such.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 5:19:01 PM EST
The biggest fail I have seen in a long time.

First, the rainbow gun is not going to kill things at 600yds without a second coming. Mainly because you are not going to be able to see your target in your scope for your hold-over, or you will have to have a gun set up with a 20mil or 40mil mount, and sighted in for it. Good luck using that gun to its fullest extent. And good luck on the animal not moving in that 1.x seconds of flight time.

Secondly, comparing the bullets energy without taking into effect the min. velocity of the bullet is useless. If the bullet does not expand, it will not do its job, and the effectiveness of the shot is severely limited. Dont kid yourself and say that your going to shoot anything in the head at 500+ to use that non-expanding bullet and its majik energy.

Geometry + Arithmetic = Your crazy.

Sorry for the harsh treatment buddy, but get real and Ill shut up.
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Posted: 9/15/2012 5:41:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By Aspp:
The biggest fail I have seen in a long time.

First, the rainbow gun is not going to kill things at 600yds without a second coming. Mainly because you are not going to be able to see your target in your scope for your hold-over, or you will have to have a gun set up with a 20mil or 40mil mount, and sighted in for it. Good luck using that gun to its fullest extent. And good luck on the animal not moving in that 1.x seconds of flight time.

Secondly, comparing the bullets energy without taking into effect the min. velocity of the bullet is useless. If the bullet does not expand, it will not do its job, and the effectiveness of the shot is severely limited. Dont kid yourself and say that your going to shoot anything in the head at 500+ to use that non-expanding bullet and its majik energy.

Geometry + Arithmetic = Your crazy.

Sorry for the harsh treatment buddy, but get real and Ill shut up.


wait, so a 240 inch drop at 600 yards makes the shot impossible? but a 391 inch drop at 1000 yards is entirely feasible?
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Posted: 9/15/2012 7:42:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Originally Posted By Aspp:
The biggest fail I have seen in a long time.

First, the rainbow gun is not going to kill things at 600yds without a second coming. Mainly because you are not going to be able to see your target in your scope for your hold-over, or you will have to have a gun set up with a 20mil or 40mil mount, and sighted in for it. Good luck using that gun to its fullest extent. And good luck on the animal not moving in that 1.x seconds of flight time.

Secondly, comparing the bullets energy without taking into effect the min. velocity of the bullet is useless. If the bullet does not expand, it will not do its job, and the effectiveness of the shot is severely limited. Dont kid yourself and say that your going to shoot anything in the head at 500+ to use that non-expanding bullet and its majik energy.

Geometry + Arithmetic = Your crazy.

Sorry for the harsh treatment buddy, but get real and Ill shut up.


wait, so a 240 inch drop at 600 yards makes the shot impossible? but a 391 inch drop at 1000 yards is entirely feasible?


No. A 240" (20') drop at 600 puts the target outside of your line of view. Try it. Your average 4.5-14x50mm scope (a realistic entry level option) has a FOV of about 120ft at 600yd at 4.5x. You might be able to pick out an elk, maybe if your eyes are better than mine anyway. At 14x you have about 40' FOV, the problem is that on many scopes, you loose focus at the outside edges of the scope. Best case the target is large, and you have good eyes and can use a lower power to spot your target, and be shooting minuet of man. That is not realistic shooting. That is emergency shooting situation.
At 1000yds, the same scope has a FOV of 191' on low and 74' on high. That puts the target in the lower 1/3 of the scope, but still within a usable portion of the scope. This lets you use a standard scope mount on a 308 from 0-1000yds. A 300blk will need a MOA adjusted mount to shoot to 600, and that will not allow you to use the scope with mount inside of 400yds or past 700yds. IF you cant see what you are shooting at with a rifle, you will not hit it. Its that simple.

Oh and your forgetting that humidity, temperature, and altitude will all add to your 240" or 391" VERY fast. Guessing and making assumptions based on facts generated in a void are fun, but not worth much if you dont take everything into account.
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