Previous Page
Page:  / 3
Author
Message
Lazzirus
Offline
Posts: 1
Feedback: 0% (0)
Posted: 9/13/2012 6:29:23 PM
[Last Edit: 9/13/2012 6:34:14 PM by Lazzirus]
I am tired of reading forums and blog posts where the writer badmouths the 300 Blackout! One common line of thinking among these naysayers is that the new round is less powerful than the .308, and therefore has nothing new to add to the hobby/sport/market. Is power the only criteria by which to judge a cartridge? If so, then it must be true that the LESS powerful it is, the BETTER it is. Why would I say that? Because the .22 Long Rifle is THE best-selling round of EVERY ammunition manufacturer who makes it. With this line of logic, the Blackout is better than the .308.

So, why shoot a 300 Blackout, when you can shoot a .308? Let me answer that question with some other questions. Why shoot a .22 WMR, when you can shoot a .220 Swift? Why shoot a 7mm-08, when you can shoot a 7mm STW? Why shoot a .45 ACP, when you can shoot a .454 Casull?

Another way to express what I’m getting at here is with this question: Why on earth would I shoot a .308, if a 300 Blackout is adequate for my purpose?

I would be willing to wager that much more than 90% of all rounds fired from all firearms in this country do not kill anything. The ammunition is purchased and used purely for pleasure. So who cares about killing power? There are a million uses for a firearm. There are a million preferences among the users of firearms. There are a million places to shoot a gun. All calibers and levels of power are useful to somebody, somewhere.

Another reason given by these haters to abandon the 300 Blackout is that we don’t “need” another new cartridge. That a man can spend his time and money as he wishes (no matter how dumb it seems to anyone else) is the purest evidence of how great America is.

I don’t have a need to say Chevy sucks in order to feel better about the Ford I drive. I drive a Ford because I want to. It may actually be inferior to your Chevy in every way, but I drive the Ford anyway because I WANT to.

I say, let’s take the 300 Blackout, and run with it. Then let’s neck the .300/5.56 case to .284, .277, .264, and .243 (Ruger already beat us to the .204). Then let’s neck it up to .338 and .358 just for fun. This is America, dammit!

P.S. Here is what I want a 300 Blackout for: I have a 50 pound, 10-year-old daughter who is very sensitive to recoil and muzzle blast. She loves to shoot and hunt and be with her dad. So, I bought her a “Youth” .243. The manufacture’s idea of a youth must be more along the lines of a strapping-ish sort of 14-year-old boy rather than a wispy shadow of a 10-year-old girl. My daughter cannot nestle into the stock and get a good sight picture due to the large size of the rifle. The short barrel of the gun makes the muzzle blast even more pronounced. The light weight of the gun makes the recoil slightly uncomfortable for me and intolerable for her. In short, she is scared of the gun and cannot use it accurately. I dream of a small, lightweight, short(ish) barreled rifle in a caliber that is just sufficient to take a deer, and is actually sized for a child (think of the Chipmunk rifle here). No one makes one. Wouldn’t a 16”-18” barreled, 8”-10” length of pull, 5lb, bolt-action rifle in 300 Blackout be perfect for children who are learning to love the shooting sports? I submit that it would. Whoever makes one first could also chamber it in .357 Magnum, .22 Hornet, .17 Fireball, and of course .223 just to name a few off the top of my head. I hope the manufacturers are listening.

So, to answer the question which is the title of his post: YES! If the .308 is overpowered for my needs.
762x40mm
Member
Offline
Posts: 622
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 6:50:07 PM
[Last Edit: 9/13/2012 6:51:27 PM by 762x40mm]
OP: The 300 Blackout is better than the 308?

Then...

Poll: Which do you really prefer to shoot?

Then....

Define the mission for use as a youth rifle?????

That's a whole lotta fail in a first post

" The only way I got to keep them Tigers busy is to let them shoot holes in me..."

7 > 6.8
tammons
Offline
Posts: 1109
Feedback: 100% (10)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 6:52:32 PM
Not better just different
Aspp
Offline
Posts: 141
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 7:05:52 PM
OK, so after reading your wall of text it boils down to: Why has no one built a 300Blk in a bolt gun? Because it is very hard to build a production gun in that caliber that will shoot accurately. Savage tried and couldnt get it to work. Remmington has not been able to do it yet, and they are backing the round. I also think it would be a great idea, but your range limited with it. Inside 200yds, it will work just fine, after that your hold over becomes so great, that it really hampers your chances of making a hit on game. Now, if your just shooting paper, that doesnt matter. Call Pacnor, break out the child's college fund, and build yourself a bolt rifle for the kid to shoot.

FWIW: In my experiance a "lite" load in a 7mm-08 or 308 kicks less than a "lite" 243 load, slower powder makes for a push instead of a snap.

If you really want something easy for her to shoot, pick up a Ruger 44 carbine, a Marlin 357 lever gun, or have a smith install a mercury recoil reducer into the stock of that 243. For the most part, they will still be lighter than your average AR platform.

marshs313
Offline
Posts: 203
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 7:23:37 PM
Well with anything in life the answer lies with a simple two words... It depends. If your daughter is recoil sensitive and has a issue with length of pull I would suggest the new tc dimension. You can adjust the stock length as well as the caliber. So as she grows the rifle can be adjusted to fit her. You could start out with .223 or .22-250 both good calibers. From the experience of being a kid once(at 10 I was about 70 lbs) I was given a .308 Winchester model 70 featherweight and at the same time found out there was no Santa because everyone knows guns and Santa don't mix. In hindsight I probably should have started with something like a .223-.300 or something similar. As I developed a habit of jerking my shots from the recoil. I still struggle with this on occasion. So I would recommend until she hits puberty in a couple few years and grows like most young kids do. Is setting her up with something like a .223 or .300 blk is a good idea. Personally I always hunted with my dad but didn't get to actually pull the trigger on one until I was 12 or so. However, If I was you I would perhaps just work on mechanics of soothing and setting your daughter up for being a successful shooter/hunter growing up. In the mean time just enjoy the outdoors with your daughter and keep up the good work. It says a lot about you in trying to find something more suitable for your kid.
InfiniteGrim
Member
Online
Posts: 17968
Feedback: 100% (53)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 7:30:32 PM
I'm assuming semi autos are not legal for hunting?

Build a side charging .300 blackout AR with no gas system.
ztug
Online
Posts: 300
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 7:53:43 PM
[Last Edit: 9/13/2012 7:57:35 PM by ztug]
Originally Posted By Lazzirus:
I am tired of reading forums and blog posts where the writer badmouths the 300 Blackout! One common line of thinking among these naysayers is that the new round is less powerful than the .308, and therefore has nothing new to add to the hobby/sport/market. Is power the only criteria by which to judge a cartridge? If so, then it must be true that the LESS powerful it is, the BETTER it is. Why would I say that? Because the .22 Long Rifle is THE best-selling round of EVERY ammunition manufacturer who makes it. With this line of logic, the Blackout is better than the .308.

So, why shoot a 300 Blackout, when you can shoot a .308? Let me answer that question with some other questions. Why shoot a .22 WMR, when you can shoot a .220 Swift? Why shoot a 7mm-08, when you can shoot a 7mm STW? Why shoot a .45 ACP, when you can shoot a .454 Casull?

Another way to express what I’m getting at here is with this question: Why on earth would I shoot a .308, if a 300 Blackout is adequate for my purpose?

I would be willing to wager that much more than 90% of all rounds fired from all firearms in this country do not kill anything. The ammunition is purchased and used purely for pleasure. So who cares about killing power? There are a million uses for a firearm. There are a million preferences among the users of firearms. There are a million places to shoot a gun. All calibers and levels of power are useful to somebody, somewhere.

Another reason given by these haters to abandon the 300 Blackout is that we don’t “need” another new cartridge. That a man can spend his time and money as he wishes (no matter how dumb it seems to anyone else) is the purest evidence of how great America is.

I don’t have a need to say Chevy sucks in order to feel better about the Ford I drive. I drive a Ford because I want to. It may actually be inferior to your Chevy in every way, but I drive the Ford anyway because I WANT to.

I say, let’s take the 300 Blackout, and run with it. Then let’s neck the .300/5.56 case to .284, .277, .264, and .243 (Ruger already beat us to the .204). Then let’s neck it up to .338 and .358 just for fun. This is America, dammit!

P.S. Here is what I want a 300 Blackout for: I have a 50 pound, 10-year-old daughter who is very sensitive to recoil and muzzle blast. She loves to shoot and hunt and be with her dad. So, I bought her a “Youth” .243. The manufacture’s idea of a youth must be more along the lines of a strapping-ish sort of 14-year-old boy rather than a wispy shadow of a 10-year-old girl. My daughter cannot nestle into the stock and get a good sight picture due to the large size of the rifle. The short barrel of the gun makes the muzzle blast even more pronounced. The light weight of the gun makes the recoil slightly uncomfortable for me and intolerable for her. In short, she is scared of the gun and cannot use it accurately. I dream of a small, lightweight, short(ish) barreled rifle in a caliber that is just sufficient to take a deer, and is actually sized for a child (think of the Chipmunk rifle here). No one makes one. Wouldn’t a 16”-18” barreled, 8”-10” length of pull, 5lb, bolt-action rifle in 300 Blackout be perfect for children who are learning to love the shooting sports? I submit that it would. Whoever makes one first could also chamber it in .357 Magnum, .22 Hornet, .17 Fireball, and of course .223 just to name a few off the top of my head. I hope the manufacturers are listening.

So, to answer the question which is the title of his post: YES! If the .308 is overpowered for my needs.


+1
A lot more enjoyable to shoot with my AR 15 than lugging around an AR 10. Anything you can take with a .308, you can take with a 300BLK, you just can't do it from as far away.

What about the new 300BLK Handi Rifle? Too big? Then there is always the pink Ruger 10/22, she couldn't actually hunt with it but she could sure have a lot of fun shooting paper and tin cans with dad!


346ci
Offline
Posts: 1260
Feedback: 100% (44)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 8:12:21 PM
Depends on the needs. The .308 has ass kickin power for sure but it comes at a price of recoil, blast and weight. After my first LR shoot, I can say the .308 is not very impressive past 5-600yds. Until then, I thought it was the heat for a .30 cal. Now I'm looking at a 6BR as it is a ass kicker for LR shooting.

The 300blk makes a kick ass sub gun and can throw .30 cal bullets at the same levels as a AK. Not to bad from a AR..

There are many other choices out there than either though.
Lazzirus
Offline
Posts: 2
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 8:37:16 PM
Thanks for all your thoughtful posts. Some good food for my brain to chew on and some courses of possible action too.
reelserious
Member
Offline
Posts: 5442
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 8:41:11 PM
6.8
JC10311
Curmudgeon
NRA
Offline
Posts: 1233
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 8:43:37 PM
Tough call, but I think Fords are better than bananas.

I have both and like both for different reasons. The Rem 700 is my AT&T gun –– reach out and touch someone. The 300 is a lot more economical to shoot and good out to 150 - 200 yards. When it's time to frag the errant 'yote in the back field, I grab the 300 BLK.
The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism.
Karl Marx [Sound like anyone you know???]
jasonusvi
Member
Online
Posts: 2166
Feedback: 100% (19)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 8:57:30 PM
[Last Edit: 9/13/2012 9:00:56 PM by jasonusvi]
Get a sub $400 AAC Handi in 300BLK and let her get comfortable the feel via subs before moving up to supers.

Can probably pick up a youth stock and hold on to the original for the future.



"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." 1791 Dec. 23. (Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart)
SickMAK90
What goes here?!
Online
Posts: 6892
Feedback: 100% (28)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/13/2012 11:14:53 PM
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Get a sub $400 AAC Handi in 300BLK and let her get comfortable the feel via subs before moving up to supers.

Can probably pick up a youth stock and hold on to the original for the future.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/bullseye_doc/005-1.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/bullseye_doc/012.jpg


Man, that would be such a badass little rifle to suppress.
If you are in the Huntington, WV area check out Herd Tactical. www.herdtactical.com 304-302-0509
Shenanagins
Offline
Posts: 244
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/14/2012 11:38:11 AM
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Get a sub $400 AAC Handi in 300BLK and let her get comfortable the feel via subs before moving up to supers.

Can probably pick up a youth stock and hold on to the original for the future.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/bullseye_doc/005-1.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/bullseye_doc/012.jpg


This is probably the best answer for your problems right now. If that doesn't work then there probably isnt a rifle that is out right now that is going to work for you.

I want one.
Tricks433
Offline
Posts: 33
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/14/2012 12:22:36 PM
I put my 300 blackout in my Chevy and take it with me everytime i go to the range lol. It fits the bill for everything i want it to do. One of them handi rifles though would be awesome for what you're wanting.
Kubota3430
Member
Offline
Posts: 343
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/14/2012 6:10:16 PM
Flame suit on, it all depends on how far you are shooting at least for me.

.300 BLK-Subsonic–– 100 yards maybe out to 200 for shits and giggles, but really under 100.

.300 BLK-Supersonic––out to 300 yards for me,

.308 Win./7.62 NATO––farther than I can shoot and still hit a normal sized target,

Different gun, caliber, sub or super, for different tasks.

That 338 Lapua Magnum will sure as shit fuck somebody up at 5-7 yards when you kick in the door, but there are better choices to choose from for that task. By the same token a .45ACP is not the best option to take a 2000 yard shot. Different tasks different guns and calibers.

GO BUY MORE TOYS If there is "one best gun to do everything" most better never let thier wife know this.
charles_lee_ray
Offline
Posts: 80
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/14/2012 10:09:10 PM
Look at it this way.

A .308 winchester 110gr Hornady TAP leaves a 24 inch barrel at 3165fps and by 250 yards its at about 2370fps and at 825 yards is running aound 300ft lbs of energy and 1109 fps

a .300 AAC Blackout 110gr Barnes Vortx leaves a 16 inch barrel at 2350 fps at at about 575 yards is 300ft lbs of energy and 1111 fps


It doesn't have the range of a .308 but it still packs a lot of power into a smaller lighter package that is compatible with every part of the AR15 platform Minus the barrel.
ztug
Online
Posts: 316
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/15/2012 12:16:59 AM
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Look at it this way.

A .308 winchester 110gr Hornady TAP leaves a 24 inch barrel at 3165fps and by 250 yards its at about 2370fps and at 825 yards is running aound 300ft lbs of energy and 1109 fps

a .300 AAC Blackout 110gr Barnes Vortx leaves a 16 inch barrel at 2350 fps at at about 575 yards is 300ft lbs of energy and 1111 fps


It doesn't have the range of a .308 but it still packs a lot of power into a smaller lighter package that is compatible with every part of the AR15 platform Minus the barrel.

That is the info I remembered but I couldn't find. I've been saying for a while, Anything you can shoot with a .308, you can shoot with a 300BLK, just not from as far away! Now we know how much .
250 yards less
tammons
Offline
Posts: 1110
Feedback: 100% (10)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/15/2012 12:55:05 AM
What sort of comparison is that ??
If you want to compare, then compare a bullet that works well at long distance in the 308 and not a 110 grainer just because.....

308 - 208 gr amax pushed at 2600 will be super sonic out to 1400 yards and have 555 FPE at 1400 and 950 FPE at 1000 yards.



Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Look at it this way.

A .308 winchester 110gr Hornady TAP leaves a 24 inch barrel at 3165fps and by 250 yards its at about 2370fps and at 825 yards is running aound 300ft lbs of energy and 1109 fps

a .300 AAC Blackout 110gr Barnes Vortx leaves a 16 inch barrel at 2350 fps at at about 575 yards is 300ft lbs of energy and 1111 fps


It doesn't have the range of a .308 but it still packs a lot of power into a smaller lighter package that is compatible with every part of the AR15 platform Minus the barrel.


tammons
Offline
Posts: 1111
Feedback: 100% (10)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/15/2012 12:56:05 AM
Originally Posted By ztug:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Look at it this way.

A .308 winchester 110gr Hornady TAP leaves a 24 inch barrel at 3165fps and by 250 yards its at about 2370fps and at 825 yards is running aound 300ft lbs of energy and 1109 fps

a .300 AAC Blackout 110gr Barnes Vortx leaves a 16 inch barrel at 2350 fps at at about 575 yards is 300ft lbs of energy and 1111 fps


It doesn't have the range of a .308 but it still packs a lot of power into a smaller lighter package that is compatible with every part of the AR15 platform Minus the barrel.

That is the info I remembered but I couldn't find. I've been saying for a while, Anything you can shoot with a .308, you can shoot with a 300BLK, just not from as far away! Now we know how much .
250 yards less


FAIL - Try again

Tim_W
Offline
Posts: 1383
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/15/2012 9:58:44 AM
Originally Posted By tammons:
Originally Posted By ztug:
Originally Posted By charles_lee_ray:
Look at it this way.

A .308 winchester 110gr Hornady TAP leaves a 24 inch barrel at 3165fps and by 250 yards its at about 2370fps and at 825 yards is running aound 300ft lbs of energy and 1109 fps

a .300 AAC Blackout 110gr Barnes Vortx leaves a 16 inch barrel at 2350 fps at at about 575 yards is 300ft lbs of energy and 1111 fps


It doesn't have the range of a .308 but it still packs a lot of power into a smaller lighter package that is compatible with every part of the AR15 platform Minus the barrel.

That is the info I remembered but I couldn't find. I've been saying for a while, Anything you can shoot with a .308, you can shoot with a 300BLK, just not from as far away! Now we know how much .
250 yards less


FAIL - Try again


LOl, no joke
They just keep twisting things trying to make themselves think it will out perform a 308.
The 308 hold twice as much powder, there is no way in hell a blk will ever out perform a 308 using the same bullets.


tammons
Offline
Posts: 1112
Feedback: 100% (10)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/15/2012 10:43:49 AM
[Last Edit: 9/15/2012 10:45:06 AM by tammons]
Full on Retard.

I dont know what it is about pride of ownership that causes people to lose all common sense.
A lot of these 300 blk hardcore fans are just plain nuts with the crap they come up with.

Gone_Shootin
CAPATALIST
Offline
Posts: 11619
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/15/2012 10:44:39 AM
I like the .300blk for what it is, but I'll never put in the same class as .308.
Support the VZ-58 Subfourm: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_2/1363784_We_still_need_a_VZ_58_forum.html&page=1
jasonusvi
Member
Online
Posts: 2169
Feedback: 100% (19)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/15/2012 11:24:09 AM
The poll actually reads which is more fun to shoot. OP should change the meaningless and baiting "better" in the thread title.

Is 300BLK better? No, the question is too vague. Each better at some things than the other.

Is 300BLK a more efficient cartridge? Almost without question for a semi auto. I think that is one of the fun things about it. With subs you can send 15oz of lead downrange in less than 10 seconds using less than 300 grains of powder. Energy is never expended breaking the sound barrier and so it retains a substantial proportion of its original energy through flight. Given high quality high BC SMKs it probably allows among the highest levels of subsonic performance possible over any distance.

Is the 300BLK the most exciting (supported and standardized) AR option available to a mass audience in decades? Probably.
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." 1791 Dec. 23. (Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart)
charles_lee_ray
Offline
Posts: 81
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/15/2012 2:41:35 PM
Right over everyone's head...

The point was that if the .308 is good enough to shoot something with past 250 yards out to 1000+ yards then the .300 blackout is sufficient within its 500-600 yard range. It will not out shoot the .308 in anyway whatsoever and its nowhere near as powerful but it has similar ballistics from 0 to 600 yards as a .308 has from 250 to 800 yards using a compatible bullet weight loaded in commercial self defense/ hunting ammunition.
lwrkeysfisher
Offline
Posts: 59
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 9/15/2012 3:06:31 PM
Same old Sh!+. The incessant marketing campaign for this cartridge is annoying.
  Previous Page
Page:  / 3