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Posted: 6/16/2012 12:50:33 AM
[Last Edit: 6/16/2012 12:55:43 AM by sandman317]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT I am thinking about ordering a 300 Blackout barrel. I saw some Wilson barrels that look nice. My question is: 16" vs 18" barrel? How much more velocity might I achieve with the 18" in a supersonic load with say 125 gr bullet than in the 16"? any estimates? Just asking out of curiosity I know velocity questions and barrel length concerning 223 can be aggravitingly redundant......so please forgive me in advance for asking a velocity question.... |
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Posted: 6/16/2012 2:28:08 AM
300 blackouts are for the most part destined to be run with shorter barrels IMO. So between those two choices, I'd clearly go 16", but I frankly wouldn't be interested in a 300 blackout over 12".
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Posted: 6/16/2012 2:41:43 AM
Originally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
300 blackouts are for the most part destined to be run with shorter barrels IMO. So between those two choices, I'd clearly go 16", but I frankly wouldn't be interested in a 300 blackout over 12". PLUS ONE, but you could get a longer sight picture with irons on the 16 and 18 at least. |
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Posted: 6/16/2012 6:25:15 AM
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others!
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Posted: 6/16/2012 9:14:33 AM
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! You must be talking only subsonic. OP, I don't know the exact answer to your question since I don't have one in 18". With 125 gr supers, about 175 fps is gained from a 9" barrel to a 16" barrel. The extra 2" may give you a little more but may not be worth the extra length. |
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Posted: 6/16/2012 9:25:47 AM
check out this chart in this other thread.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/576681_8_300BLK_Ballistics__velocity__energy__expansion_.html |
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Posted: 6/16/2012 9:30:28 AM
[Last Edit: 6/16/2012 9:32:21 AM by LoneStar1847]
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Posted: 6/16/2012 9:39:51 AM
If you email Wilson they may send you some info, I'm pretty sure they are usually helpful concerning technical questions. I received one of their 18" 300 barrels last week and would like the info if they get it to you.
I'm building a rifle for Whitetail in the woods of PA so even if they have poor velocity over 100 yards it really won't matter. I also plan on building a suppressed SBR 300. |
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Posted: 6/16/2012 9:47:45 AM
Originally Posted By LoneStar1847:
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! You must be talking only subsonic. OP, I don't know the exact answer to your question since I don't have one in 18". With 125 gr supers, about 175 fps is gained from a 9" barrel to a 16" barrel. The extra 2" may give you a little more but may not be worth the extra length. At 300 meters, 300 BLK has 16.7% more energy than 7.62x39mm. Max effective range, using M4 military standards for hit probability, is 440 meters for a 9 inch barrel, and 460 meters for a 16 inch barrel. 300 BLK from a 9 inch barrel has the same energy at the muzzle as a 14.5 inch barrel M4, and about 5% more energy at 440 meters - even though the barrel is much shorter. |
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Posted: 6/16/2012 12:14:54 PM
[Last Edit: 6/16/2012 12:14:54 PM by Lancelot]
Topic Moved
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Posted: 6/16/2012 1:20:38 PM
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By LoneStar1847:
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! You must be talking only subsonic. OP, I don't know the exact answer to your question since I don't have one in 18". With 125 gr supers, about 175 fps is gained from a 9" barrel to a 16" barrel. The extra 2" may give you a little more but may not be worth the extra length. At 300 meters, 300 BLK has 16.7% more energy than 7.62x39mm. Max effective range, using M4 military standards for hit probability, is 440 meters for a 9 inch barrel, and 460 meters for a 16 inch barrel. 300 BLK from a 9 inch barrel has the same energy at the muzzle as a 14.5 inch barrel M4, and about 5% more energy at 440 meters - even though the barrel is much shorter. So, you are saying that both 5.56x45 from a 14.5" barrel, and 7.62x35from any barrel both suck at 440 meters. I think that most people know this already. I'm sure that the 7.62x35 is also much better than the 22LR at 500 meters. |
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Posted: 6/16/2012 1:25:35 PM
Long story short...not worth the extra two inches.
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Posted: 6/16/2012 1:47:07 PM
[Last Edit: 6/16/2012 1:47:57 PM by lilMAC25]
Originally Posted By eightring:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By LoneStar1847:
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! You must be talking only subsonic. OP, I don't know the exact answer to your question since I don't have one in 18". With 125 gr supers, about 175 fps is gained from a 9" barrel to a 16" barrel. The extra 2" may give you a little more but may not be worth the extra length. At 300 meters, 300 BLK has 16.7% more energy than 7.62x39mm. Max effective range, using M4 military standards for hit probability, is 440 meters for a 9 inch barrel, and 460 meters for a 16 inch barrel. 300 BLK from a 9 inch barrel has the same energy at the muzzle as a 14.5 inch barrel M4, and about 5% more energy at 440 meters - even though the barrel is much shorter. So, you are saying that both 5.56x45 from a 14.5" barrel, and 7.62x35from any barrel both suck at 440 meters. I think that most people know this already. I'm sure that the 7.62x35 is also much better than the 22LR at 500 meters. A. 440 meters is over 4x the range we were discussing (100 yds) B. Don't forget, most people are still discussing 5.56 in 55gr or 62gr ammo at 440 meters. I think I've only got 1 or 2 mags of that, everything else is 69gr or +.... C. It stands to reason that if the 300BLK (supersonic) from a 9" barrel has more energy at 440 meters than a 16" 5.56, it also has more energy at 100 meters. Also, a lot of the data I'm seeing is comparing 62gr 5.56 energy vs 123gr 300BLK, I'd like to see the data when you move up to 75gr 5.56 or 77gr 5.56 (Mk262). And not just ballistics at range, but accuracy (precision) statistics. There was a chart somewhere showing stuff like 16" Barrel comparison @ Muzzle: 5.56mm M855 2938 ft/s, 1188 ft-lb 7.62x39mm Win, 123 gr SP 2245 ft/s, 1377 ft-lb 300 BLK, 125 gr OTM 2230 ft/s, 1380 ft-lb (16% over 5.56mm) Accuracy From: 10" Barrel 5.56mm 3.9 MOA (8.1 in) @ 200 yds - 5 rds extreme spread. 9" Barrel 300 BLK 220gr OTM (with 762-SDN-6) 0.64-1.20 MOA @ 100m - Avg. Mean Radius. Linky Dont forget to take into account bias in methods of measurement (why the difference in measurement of group size?). |
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Posted: 6/16/2012 4:18:30 PM
Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
check out this chart in this other thread. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/576681_8_300BLK_Ballistics__velocity__energy__expansion_.html Thank You very much !!! |
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Posted: 6/16/2012 5:52:38 PM
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By LoneStar1847:
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! You must be talking only subsonic. OP, I don't know the exact answer to your question since I don't have one in 18". With 125 gr supers, about 175 fps is gained from a 9" barrel to a 16" barrel. The extra 2" may give you a little more but may not be worth the extra length. At 300 meters, 300 BLK has 16.7% more energy than 7.62x39mm. Max effective range, using M4 military standards for hit probability, is 440 meters for a 9 inch barrel, and 460 meters for a 16 inch barrel. 300 BLK from a 9 inch barrel has the same energy at the muzzle as a 14.5 inch barrel M4, and about 5% more energy at 440 meters - even though the barrel is much shorter. Damn, those numbers are quite impressive. |
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Posted: 6/16/2012 10:29:42 PM
Originally Posted By 10milg29:
Long story short...not worth the extra two inches. Unless your goal with the 300 BLK is to wring every last fps of velocity out the cartridge regardless of what it costs in terms of handling, weight, etc then there's no reason I can think of to pick the 18" over the 16". If it's speed you're after in a 30 cal AR platform, go with the 7.62x40 |
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Posted: 6/16/2012 11:37:07 PM
Originally Posted By jmt1271:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By LoneStar1847:
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! You must be talking only subsonic. OP, I don't know the exact answer to your question since I don't have one in 18". With 125 gr supers, about 175 fps is gained from a 9" barrel to a 16" barrel. The extra 2" may give you a little more but may not be worth the extra length. At 300 meters, 300 BLK has 16.7% more energy than 7.62x39mm. Max effective range, using M4 military standards for hit probability, is 440 meters for a 9 inch barrel, and 460 meters for a 16 inch barrel. 300 BLK from a 9 inch barrel has the same energy at the muzzle as a 14.5 inch barrel M4, and about 5% more energy at 440 meters - even though the barrel is much shorter. Damn, those numbers are quite impressive. PLUS ONE |
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Posted: 6/17/2012 7:34:05 AM
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! Subsonics are not recommended for civilian home defense use by any manufacturer of 300 BLK products. Supers on the other hand can do just fine, as evidenced by the below photo. The bullets apparently penetrated the entire block of ballistics gel and kept going. 18"+ ![]() |
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Posted: 6/17/2012 3:44:48 PM
Originally Posted By agBQ08:
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! Subsonics are not recommended for civilian home defense use by any manufacturer of 300 BLK products. Supers on the other hand can do just fine, as evidenced by the below photo. The bullets apparently penetrated the entire block of ballistics gel and kept going. 18"+ http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/9338/300blk300small.jpg Why are subs not recommend for home defense? |
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Posted: 6/17/2012 3:59:45 PM
Just a guess, but I'd say lack of penetration and hollow points won't expand reliably.
Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
Originally Posted By agBQ08:
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! Subsonics are not recommended for civilian home defense use by any manufacturer of 300 BLK products. Supers on the other hand can do just fine, as evidenced by the below photo. The bullets apparently penetrated the entire block of ballistics gel and kept going. 18"+ http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/9338/300blk300small.jpg Why are subs not recommend for home defense? |
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Posted: 6/17/2012 8:03:45 PM
[Last Edit: 6/17/2012 8:06:27 PM by WVHunter1s1k]
Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
Originally Posted By jmt1271:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By LoneStar1847:
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! You must be talking only subsonic. OP, I don't know the exact answer to your question since I don't have one in 18". With 125 gr supers, about 175 fps is gained from a 9" barrel to a 16" barrel. The extra 2" may give you a little more but may not be worth the extra length. At 300 meters, 300 BLK has 16.7% more energy than 7.62x39mm. Max effective range, using M4 military standards for hit probability, is 440 meters for a 9 inch barrel, and 460 meters for a 16 inch barrel. 300 BLK from a 9 inch barrel has the same energy at the muzzle as a 14.5 inch barrel M4, and about 5% more energy at 440 meters - even though the barrel is much shorter. Damn, those numbers are quite impressive. PLUS ONE Nevermind. I'm enjoying this too much!! |
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Posted: 6/18/2012 12:19:58 AM
Subs are not for home defense purely for the issue of cycling dependability without a can on them. Why would you want to fire an underpowered round when your life is on the line? Are you under siege from a Columbian cartel death squad and your only hope is to grab your suppressed 300 and start going mall ninja on them? If you look at any home defense / people ammo, all of them are designed to pack a serious punch, cycle reliably, and end hostile actions. Suppressed 300 imo is for the guys who like to shoot things very quietly.
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Posted: 6/18/2012 1:29:13 PM
I know a lot of good folks on here are convinced that the shorter the barrel the more desirable the firearm. I say that is fine, after all to MOST here this is a just a hobby. Many enjoy the spirited debate also. The debates are great as it gets people to think more and dig into the technical stuff. Me, I just enjoy the hobby and personally I don't get involved in SBR's as for this guy they serve no purpose worth the expense and trouble. If I want a really short barrel I just shoot a pistol. I know some will swear you need all that power of the 300 to stop a bad guy. Maybe there is merit to that...maybe not. If I were a Special Operations professional in the field and my life was on the line.....my thoughts would probably be vastly different than what they are.
I build and shoot rifles for accuracy. I grew up on a farm and being able to hit a muskrat or ground hog at a few hundred yards on the first shot was important. SBR's weren't in on that mix! So, when I look at the 300 BLK I go for a 16" barrel. With the right stock it makes for a short and easy to carry rifle in the field. With a 16" barrel you can get great performance for hunting with good velocity and accuracy. For my personal uses a suppressor just isn't a priority. I need a fast moving round that will get some distance and stay accurate. I have seen some guys hunting with suppressors so for them it works. For me I am loading light bullets for more velocity and that sort of defeats the surpressor thing anyway. So, why would I spend hundreds of dollars on it? But, to each his own. So, I have AR's with barrels from 14.5" up to 24", including an 18" one. The 14.5" is fast and moves well, the 16" is OK too but in second place to the 14.. After that they start getting long. The 18" and 24" heavy barrels I only use off a rest, but that is me. YMMV. After picking up a new RRA 16" "heavier but not bull" barrel rifle I think I have found the sweet spot of length, balance and overall feel. Don't get me wrong, I find the SBRs fun to play with, and they are cute! Is just not what I need for my uses. |
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Posted: 6/18/2012 2:58:09 PM
Originally Posted By DJ3187:
Subs are not for home defense purely for the issue of cycling dependability without a can on them. Why would you want to fire an underpowered round when your life is on the line? Are you under siege from a Columbian cartel death squad and your only hope is to grab your suppressed 300 and start going mall ninja on them? If you look at any home defense / people ammo, all of them are designed to pack a serious punch, cycle reliably, and end hostile actions. Suppressed 300 imo is for the guys who like to shoot things very quietly. Well in a home defense situation where all my kids and my wife are sleeping and i am shooting in the house i would like to save their ears so they can hear whats going on, and get the hell out the house when i scream to them. I would suppress my 10 inch .300 blackout forsure when i get one. Don't know why you think its all mall ninja to suppress your rifle to save your ears. |
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Posted: 6/18/2012 2:58:43 PM
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Just a guess, but I'd say lack of penetration and hollow points won't expand reliably. Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
Originally Posted By agBQ08:
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! Subsonics are not recommended for civilian home defense use by any manufacturer of 300 BLK products. Supers on the other hand can do just fine, as evidenced by the below photo. The bullets apparently penetrated the entire block of ballistics gel and kept going. 18"+ http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/9338/300blk300small.jpg Why are subs not recommend for home defense? Doubt it. |
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Posted: 6/18/2012 3:27:45 PM
Originally Posted By agBQ08:
Originally Posted By Skins45:
300BLK is generally designed for home defense/CQB considering the round is terrible (IMHO) after 100yrds. I'd go as short as your budget/state would allow. I have no idea how short you can get a 300BLK barrel but 10.5 would be perfect. Then you get a subsonic soft tip load, suppress it, and you have a ridiculous home defense SHTF gun to compliment your others! Subsonics are not recommended for civilian home defense use by any manufacturer of 300 BLK products. Supers on the other hand can do just fine, as evidenced by the below photo. The bullets apparently penetrated the entire block of ballistics gel and kept going. 18"+ ![]() At 300 yds, these supers penetrated 18+ inches and this your reccomended home defense round for the 300BLK? Not being jerk, but I dont want 18+ inches of penetration in a HD situation. I'm less worried about noise than I am having the rounds go through the target, (Person I've just shot) and into my kid's room. I dont know about you guys, but I dont live in a house with reinforced interior walls that will stop supersonic rounds from pentrating. One of the advantages of light 5.56 rounds is that they fragment due to velocity and wont penetrate as deeply, thereby diminishing the chances of unintended injuries/deaths due to overpentration. I'm NOT bashing on the 300 BLK round. I like very much what I have read about the round and if I reloaded, (actually, when I begin to reload) I will have one. But there is such a thing as too much penetration in a HD scenario. I dont know why Subs are not reccommended for HD use..... |
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