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Posted: 12/17/2011 11:44:19 PM EDT
[#1]
At this point 300BLK in SBR's with a can is hard to beat. I've been running 6.8 for a few years and like the cartridge but I think they both serve different purposes. For 12.5 and longer I like 6.8 for barrels shorter than 12.5 I will be running 300BLK.
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Posted: 12/18/2011 1:37:01 AM EDT
[#2]
Two different animals.
The mission drives the gear. What are you going to use it for? |
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Posted: 12/18/2011 3:37:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Topic Moved
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Posted: 12/18/2011 5:28:23 AM EDT
[#4]
I see that you are in NY. I asked the same question a couple of weeks ago as I planned a build for an AR I am going to use primarily for hunting. For me anyway, the biggest deciding factor was that I can use my preban magazines with the 300 AAC Blackout platform which I cant do with the 6.8. I would have to go to a proprietary magazine and of course there is no such thing as "preban" 6.8 magazines.
I think the 6.8's power factor is a bit better but there are a number of loading's available for the 300BLK that are pretty close in terms of performance and they are priced reasonably because of the availability of brass. The Barnes 110 grain TSX loading is pushing a 30 caliber bullet at 2300fps and at around $23 a box, its not a bad deal. Remington and SouthWest ammo both have FMJ ammo available for around $12 per 20 which is a little bit high for "plinkin" ammo but I would hazard a guess that 6.8 FMJ isnt any cheaper. |
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Posted: 12/18/2011 5:32:25 AM EDT
[#5]
Like Mr. Cody says, two different animals. Take your pick on what your needs and wants are.
6.8 SPC - Supersonic only if you are looking to get every last bit of energy you can out of a 6.8 bullet that works well in SBR. I have a simplistict view of the 6.8 SPC SAAMI being like 223 Rem and the 6.8 SPC II being like 5.56 as far as pressures go. 300 BLK - Get decent performance for supers that will be about a 30-30 or a hair less than hot 7.62x39 loads. Works great in 20+ inch barrels down to 8" barrels. Then, screw on a can to go quiet with subsonics that will reliably cycle the action. |
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Posted: 12/18/2011 5:41:05 AM EDT
[#6]
My choice? Suppressed .300 BLK SBR. I FINALLY got the stamp for the silencer on Friday, and will be taking it to the range for some testing. I fired some subs through it without the silencer attached, and had some short-stroking issues. Shouldn't be a problem with the can attached.
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Posted: 12/18/2011 11:29:06 AM EDT
[#7]
my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more'
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Posted: 12/18/2011 11:39:21 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. |
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Posted: 12/18/2011 1:01:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Quoted: my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Plus, it will cost you more in parts, components, and ammo. |
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Posted: 12/18/2011 1:43:06 PM EDT
[#10]
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my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. ...or cycle suppressed subsonic and supersonic in the same gun with no changes or adjustments whatsoever. The 6.8 is a fine round, but no, it does not "do everything you need in the 300 and more." |
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Posted: 12/18/2011 2:48:03 PM EDT
[#11]
6.8:
Velocity Energy Range Terminal Performance 300: Cheaper Brass 5.56 Bolt 5.56 Magazines Reliable and Quiet Subsonic Suppressed Both perform well in short barrels and have good industry support. Decide which advantages are most important to you and pick one (or get both). |
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Posted: 12/18/2011 9:06:51 PM EDT
[#12]
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my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Why the 300blk for a suppressed SBR? A .45 HK UMP firing 230 gr HST +P's will give way better terminal performance than the 300 blk 220 grn Remmington loading, which is the "quiet" subsonic round you refer to. For that matter, why not use a Glock 21 with a Kreiss 30 round mag and suppressor? The subsonic 300 blk is an answer looking for a question. Remmington 220 grain: 1010 fps out of 16-inch barrel!!! Keep in mind this is a rifle bullet designed for rifle velocities, not handgun velocities. Federal HST .45 230 gr +P fired from 6-inch barrel: 1010 fps. This is a handgun round and typically expands to almost an inch at the handgun velocities it was designed to fire at. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_CorbonDPX.htm |
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Posted: 12/18/2011 9:29:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Why the 300blk for a suppressed SBR? A .45 HK UMP firing 230 gr HST +P's will give way better terminal performance than the 300 blk 220 grn Remmington loading, which is the "quiet" subsonic round you refer to. For that matter, why not use a Glock 21 with a Kreiss 30 round mag and suppressor? The subsonic 300 blk is an answer looking for a question. Remmington 220 grain: 1010 fps out of 16-inch barrel!!! Keep in mind this is a rifle bullet designed for rifle velocities, not handgun velocities. Federal HST .45 230 gr +P fired from 6-inch barrel: 1010 fps. This is a handgun round and typically expands to almost an inch at the handgun velocities it was designed to fire at. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_CorbonDPX.htm What is the BC of .45 pistol bullets? The 308 bullets will retain much more energy and will bleed of velocity much more slowly, thus they will have a greater range then 9mm or 45 acp. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 4:01:06 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Why the 300blk for a suppressed SBR? A .45 HK UMP firing 230 gr HST +P's will give way better terminal performance than the 300 blk 220 grn Remmington loading, which is the "quiet" subsonic round you refer to. For that matter, why not use a Glock 21 with a Kreiss 30 round mag and suppressor? The subsonic 300 blk is an answer looking for a question. Remmington 220 grain: 1010 fps out of 16-inch barrel!!! Keep in mind this is a rifle bullet designed for rifle velocities, not handgun velocities. Federal HST .45 230 gr +P fired from 6-inch barrel: 1010 fps. This is a handgun round and typically expands to almost an inch at the handgun velocities it was designed to fire at. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_CorbonDPX.htm What is the BC of .45 pistol bullets? The 308 bullets will retain much more energy and will bleed of velocity much more slowly, thus they will have a greater range then 9mm or 45 acp. Precisely. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 4:08:46 AM EDT
[#15]
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my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Why the 300blk for a suppressed SBR? A .45 HK UMP firing 230 gr HST +P's will give way better terminal performance than the 300 blk 220 grn Remmington loading, which is the "quiet" subsonic round you refer to. For that matter, why not use a Glock 21 with a Kreiss 30 round mag and suppressor? The subsonic 300 blk is an answer looking for a question. Remmington 220 grain: 1010 fps out of 16-inch barrel!!! Keep in mind this is a rifle bullet designed for rifle velocities, not handgun velocities. Federal HST .45 230 gr +P fired from 6-inch barrel: 1010 fps. This is a handgun round and typically expands to almost an inch at the handgun velocities it was designed to fire at. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_CorbonDPX.htm The topic is about the 6.8 vs the 300, nothing about 45 acp or a 510 whisper that will blow away all 
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Posted: 12/19/2011 4:53:13 AM EDT
[#16]
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my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Why the 300blk for a suppressed SBR? A .45 HK UMP firing 230 gr HST +P's will give way better terminal performance than the 300 blk 220 grn Remmington loading, which is the "quiet" subsonic round you refer to. For that matter, why not use a Glock 21 with a Kreiss 30 round mag and suppressor? The subsonic 300 blk is an answer looking for a question. Remmington 220 grain: 1010 fps out of 16-inch barrel!!! Keep in mind this is a rifle bullet designed for rifle velocities, not handgun velocities. Federal HST .45 230 gr +P fired from 6-inch barrel: 1010 fps. This is a handgun round and typically expands to almost an inch at the handgun velocities it was designed to fire at. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_CorbonDPX.htm What is the BC of .45 pistol bullets? The 308 bullets will retain much more energy and will bleed of velocity much more slowly, thus they will have a greater range then 9mm or 45 acp. Precisely. It isn't just about BC. You can pull out the magazine of subs and put a mag of supersonics in that are much better terminal peformers than any .45ACP. The 300BLK will also run much more reliably and with standard AR mags in an AR platform. It is about versatility as well. Also, with companies like Outlaw State Bullets coming out with good expanding subsonic bullets for the 300BLK it won't be long before that argument is completely irrelevent. They will offer similar performance and better penetration than a .45ACP bullet. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 10:23:06 AM EDT
[#17]
If suppressors are your thing the blk is a good choice but if you need a full power rifle cartridge then 6.8 is by far the best in the AR platform.
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Posted: 12/19/2011 10:24:25 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
I see that you are in NY. I asked the same question a couple of weeks ago as I planned a build for an AR I am going to use primarily for hunting. For me anyway, the biggest deciding factor was that I can use my preban magazines with the 300 AAC Blackout platform which I cant do with the 6.8. I would have to go to a proprietary magazine and of course there is no such thing as "preban" 6.8 magazines. I think the 6.8's power factor is a bit better but there are a number of loading's available for the 300BLK that are pretty close in terms of performance and they are priced reasonably because of the availability of brass. The Barnes 110 grain TSX loading is pushing a 30 caliber bullet at 2300fps and at around $23 a box, its not a bad deal. Remington and SouthWest ammo both have FMJ ammo available for around $12 per 20 which is a little bit high for "plinkin" ammo but I would hazard a guess that 6.8 FMJ isnt any cheaper. Tula will be releasing cheap steel cased 6.8 ammo next year. From a post on 68forums: email from the President of Tulammo USA:
We are working on the 6.8 cartridge for 2012. I cannot give you a specific date, but we will have the cartridge available sometime next year. We should be able to provide a less costly version than anything on the market at this time. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 10:47:38 AM EDT
[#19]
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my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Why the 300blk for a suppressed SBR? A .45 HK UMP firing 230 gr HST +P's will give way better terminal performance than the 300 blk 220 grn Remmington loading, which is the "quiet" subsonic round you refer to. For that matter, why not use a Glock 21 with a Kreiss 30 round mag and suppressor? The subsonic 300 blk is an answer looking for a question. Remmington 220 grain: 1010 fps out of 16-inch barrel!!! Keep in mind this is a rifle bullet designed for rifle velocities, not handgun velocities. Federal HST .45 230 gr +P fired from 6-inch barrel: 1010 fps. This is a handgun round and typically expands to almost an inch at the handgun velocities it was designed to fire at. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_CorbonDPX.htm What is the BC of .45 pistol bullets? The 308 bullets will retain much more energy and will bleed of velocity much more slowly, thus they will have a greater range then 9mm or 45 acp. Precisely. It isn't just about BC. You can pull out the magazine of subs and put a mag of supersonics in that are much better terminal peformers than any .45ACP. The 300BLK will also run much more reliably and with standard AR mags in an AR platform. It is about versatility as well. Also, with companies like Outlaw State Bullets coming out with good expanding subsonic bullets for the 300BLK it won't be long before that argument is completely irrelevent. They will offer similar performance and better penetration than a .45ACP bullet. You are missing my point. Anytime the conversation comes up about 300 blk vs. 6.8, the 300blk fan boys always point to its suppressor capability. My point is the loading for subsonic suppressed 300blk is less than ideal. So trying to argue the 300blk is superior over 6.8 because of its subsonic ability is just plain silly. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 10:53:50 AM EDT
[#20]
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my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Why the 300blk for a suppressed SBR? A .45 HK UMP firing 230 gr HST +P's will give way better terminal performance than the 300 blk 220 grn Remmington loading, which is the "quiet" subsonic round you refer to. For that matter, why not use a Glock 21 with a Kreiss 30 round mag and suppressor? The subsonic 300 blk is an answer looking for a question. Remmington 220 grain: 1010 fps out of 16-inch barrel!!! Keep in mind this is a rifle bullet designed for rifle velocities, not handgun velocities. Federal HST .45 230 gr +P fired from 6-inch barrel: 1010 fps. This is a handgun round and typically expands to almost an inch at the handgun velocities it was designed to fire at. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_CorbonDPX.htm What is the BC of .45 pistol bullets? The 308 bullets will retain much more energy and will bleed of velocity much more slowly, thus they will have a greater range then 9mm or 45 acp. The HST with 1000 fps at the muzzle will still be traveling 913 fps at 100 yards so someone with a BC calculator can calculate. The HST will still realiably expand down to 700 fps. Again, what is the velocity of the 220 grain out of a 7.5 inch barrel??? The 1010 is for the 16 inch barrel. I am convinced the .45 HST +P would dominate it in performance out to 200 yards. Why would you choose a rifle to shoot subsonic ammo that can't even best a handgun round? I would take the 6.8 moving an 85 grain bullet at 2400 fps out of a 7.5 inch barrel and just live with the sonic boom. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 10:55:41 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Why the 300blk for a suppressed SBR? A .45 HK UMP firing 230 gr HST +P's will give way better terminal performance than the 300 blk 220 grn Remmington loading, which is the "quiet" subsonic round you refer to. For that matter, why not use a Glock 21 with a Kreiss 30 round mag and suppressor? The subsonic 300 blk is an answer looking for a question. Remmington 220 grain: 1010 fps out of 16-inch barrel!!! Keep in mind this is a rifle bullet designed for rifle velocities, not handgun velocities. Federal HST .45 230 gr +P fired from 6-inch barrel: 1010 fps. This is a handgun round and typically expands to almost an inch at the handgun velocities it was designed to fire at. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_CorbonDPX.htm What is the BC of .45 pistol bullets? The 308 bullets will retain much more energy and will bleed of velocity much more slowly, thus they will have a greater range then 9mm or 45 acp. Precisely. It isn't just about BC. You can pull out the magazine of subs and put a mag of supersonics in that are much better terminal peformers than any .45ACP. The 300BLK will also run much more reliably and with standard AR mags in an AR platform. It is about versatility as well. Also, with companies like Outlaw State Bullets coming out with good expanding subsonic bullets for the 300BLK it won't be long before that argument is completely irrelevent. They will offer similar performance and better penetration than a .45ACP bullet. I almost asked whether the .45 HK UMP has a supersonic option. I was not aware of the Outlaw State info. Thanks for that! |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 11:11:45 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
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my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Why the 300blk for a suppressed SBR? A .45 HK UMP firing 230 gr HST +P's will give way better terminal performance than the 300 blk 220 grn Remmington loading, which is the "quiet" subsonic round you refer to. For that matter, why not use a Glock 21 with a Kreiss 30 round mag and suppressor? The subsonic 300 blk is an answer looking for a question. Remmington 220 grain: 1010 fps out of 16-inch barrel!!! Keep in mind this is a rifle bullet designed for rifle velocities, not handgun velocities. Federal HST .45 230 gr +P fired from 6-inch barrel: 1010 fps. This is a handgun round and typically expands to almost an inch at the handgun velocities it was designed to fire at. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_CorbonDPX.htm What is the BC of .45 pistol bullets? The 308 bullets will retain much more energy and will bleed of velocity much more slowly, thus they will have a greater range then 9mm or 45 acp. Precisely. It isn't just about BC. You can pull out the magazine of subs and put a mag of supersonics in that are much better terminal peformers than any .45ACP. The 300BLK will also run much more reliably and with standard AR mags in an AR platform. It is about versatility as well. Also, with companies like Outlaw State Bullets coming out with good expanding subsonic bullets for the 300BLK it won't be long before that argument is completely irrelevent. They will offer similar performance and better penetration than a .45ACP bullet. I almost asked whether the .45 HK UMP has a supersonic option.
I was not aware of the Outlaw State info. Thanks for that! Outlaw State bullets |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 11:33:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Which one would you go with and why? Depends on what you want to do. If I was looking for quiet operation and/or limiting myself to CQB->100y I'd take the .300 as it's got good subsonic loads. If I wanted a rig for hunting - hands down the 6.8 for better hunting loads (and a wider selection) as well as expanding at much longer ranges (and less drift & drop). For a general-purpoe tactical rifle? Again I'd take the 6.8 for the range aspect (minimal drop to 300M) - drop at 500y similar to 7.62x51NATO M80 and 75gr OTM 5.56. If you're looking for a plinking rifle the .300 will have cheaper ammo and be cheaper to reload for. Looking for a SBR? It's a tossup as they both work very well from SBRs. They are both good cartridges, but have different strengths. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 11:49:44 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Why the 300blk for a suppressed SBR? A .45 HK UMP firing 230 gr HST +P's will give way better terminal performance than the 300 blk 220 grn Remmington loading, which is the "quiet" subsonic round you refer to. For that matter, why not use a Glock 21 with a Kreiss 30 round mag and suppressor? The subsonic 300 blk is an answer looking for a question. Remmington 220 grain: 1010 fps out of 16-inch barrel!!! Keep in mind this is a rifle bullet designed for rifle velocities, not handgun velocities. Federal HST .45 230 gr +P fired from 6-inch barrel: 1010 fps. This is a handgun round and typically expands to almost an inch at the handgun velocities it was designed to fire at. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_CorbonDPX.htm What is the BC of .45 pistol bullets? The 308 bullets will retain much more energy and will bleed of velocity much more slowly, thus they will have a greater range then 9mm or 45 acp. The HST with 1000 fps at the muzzle will still be traveling 913 fps at 100 yards so someone with a BC calculator can calculate. The HST will still realiably expand down to 700 fps. Again, what is the velocity of the 220 grain out of a 7.5 inch barrel??? The 1010 is for the 16 inch barrel. I am convinced the .45 HST +P would dominate it in performance out to 200 yards. Why would you choose a rifle to shoot subsonic ammo that can't even best a handgun round? I would take the 6.8 moving an 85 grain bullet at 2400 fps out of a 7.5 inch barrel and just live with the sonic boom. The 220gr. .308 bullet in the .300 BLK starts with more energy than the .45 HST, and because of its higher BC, ends up with more energy at 100 yards. As for your second question, once subsonic .308 bullets are developed that can reliable fragment at 1000 fps are developed, a suppressed .300 BLK is a fine home defense weapon. The 6.8? Not so much. Would I pick the .300 BLK over the 6.8 for 0-400 yards outdoors? Nope. I'd pick the 6.5 Grendel. But that's another discussion altogether. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 1:08:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Thanks for all the info guys,
I am looking to go with a suppressed sbr. I have other toys for >100yds I am building my first AR and didn't want to go .223 Any tips on uppers? I found some complete uppers or just the barrel for 300blk, what should I look for in a barrel? Any brands you would shy away from? I am doing this on a quasi budget. So a $1000+ upper is out of the question unless you can convince me otherwise. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 1:40:06 PM EDT
[#26]
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Thanks for all the info guys, I am looking to go with a suppressed sbr. .300 all the way then. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 2:18:48 PM EDT
[#27]
The 220gr. .308 bullet in the .300 BLK starts with more energy than the .45 HST, and because of its higher BC, ends up with more energy at 100 yards.
This is not an accurrate statement. If your main priority is an effective subsonic bullet to use suppressed, I would look elsewhere than the 300blk. The 300blk has many other benefits worthy of consideratoin but the 220 grain loading isn't one of them. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 2:35:56 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
The 220gr. .308 bullet in the .300 BLK starts with more energy than the .45 HST, and because of its higher BC, ends up with more energy at 100 yards.
This is not an accurrate statement. If you're main priority is an effective subsonic bullet to use suppressed, I would look elsewhere than the 300blk. The 300blk has many other benefits worthy of consideratoin but the 220 grain loading isn't one of them. Yeah, I guess all those deer and hogs killed with one shot of 220gr 300BLK didn't realize the round wasn't effective. 
FWIW, I'll use a supersonic load for HD even with my suppressor once it comes home from ATF jail, and it will still be quieter than any other popular supersonic AR cartridge suppressed or an unsuppressed handgun. Subsonics are useful when you HAVE to be quiet, but I don't see the trade off in power worth it for HD. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 4:03:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: The 220gr. .308 bullet in the .300 BLK starts with more energy than the .45 HST, and because of its higher BC, ends up with more energy at 100 yards. This is not an accurrate statement. If you're main priority is an effective subsonic bullet to use suppressed, I would look elsewhere than the 300blk. The 300blk has many other benefits worthy of consideratoin but the 220 grain loading isn't one of them. Please suggest options that will be 220 grains (or thereabout,) while subsonic at the muzzle, have 500 ft. lb. energy at 100 yards, and use standard AR-15 bolt and magazines. Oh yeah, and have 125 grain supersonic loadings that have more energy than 5.56 and only 10% less than 110 grain 6.8 SPC at the muzzle. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 5:41:03 PM EDT
[#30]
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The 220gr. .308 bullet in the .300 BLK starts with more energy than the .45 HST, and because of its higher BC, ends up with more energy at 100 yards.
This is not an accurrate statement. If you're main priority is an effective subsonic bullet to use suppressed, I would look elsewhere than the 300blk. The 300blk has many other benefits worthy of consideratoin but the 220 grain loading isn't one of them. Please suggest options that will be 220 grains (or thereabout,) while subsonic at the muzzle, have 500 ft. lb. energy at 100 yards, and use standard AR-15 bolt and magazines. Oh yeah, and have 125 grain supersonic loadings that have more energy than 5.56 and only 10% less than 110 grain 6.8 SPC at the muzzle. The .300 Whisper.
What you obviously missed in my statement was "main priority" and "effective". If you want all those other things then by all means, go with the .300 blk. But please get your facts straight about the energy as well-10% is based on the original incorrect SPC chamber and propaganda by Advanced Armament. Also, there is some excellent reading on this very website about energy not being the critical variable when it comes to bullet terminal performance. The 6.8 beats all the 7.62 variants in real world testing by the Army. You can read about it here if you want to actually educate yourself... http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.8-mm-spc-cartridge-history-development-hornady-stag-arms-carbine/ |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 7:34:07 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:
Quoted:
my question would be, 'why a 300blk when the 6.8 will do everything you need in the 300 and more' The 6.8 will not be even close in quiet with a can. Why the 300blk for a suppressed SBR? A .45 HK UMP firing 230 gr HST +P's will give way better terminal performance than the 300 blk 220 grn Remmington loading, which is the "quiet" subsonic round you refer to. For that matter, why not use a Glock 21 with a Kreiss 30 round mag and suppressor? The subsonic 300 blk is an answer looking for a question. Remmington 220 grain: 1010 fps out of 16-inch barrel!!! Keep in mind this is a rifle bullet designed for rifle velocities, not handgun velocities. Federal HST .45 230 gr +P fired from 6-inch barrel: 1010 fps. This is a handgun round and typically expands to almost an inch at the handgun velocities it was designed to fire at. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_CorbonDPX.htm What is the BC of .45 pistol bullets? The 308 bullets will retain much more energy and will bleed of velocity much more slowly, thus they will have a greater range then 9mm or 45 acp. Precisely. It isn't just about BC. You can pull out the magazine of subs and put a mag of supersonics in that are much better terminal peformers than any .45ACP. The 300BLK will also run much more reliably and with standard AR mags in an AR platform. It is about versatility as well. Also, with companies like Outlaw State Bullets coming out with good expanding subsonic bullets for the 300BLK it won't be long before that argument is completely irrelevent. They will offer similar performance and better penetration than a .45ACP bullet. You are missing my point. Anytime the conversation comes up about 300 blk vs. 6.8, the 300blk fan boys always point to its suppressor capability. My point is the loading for subsonic suppressed 300blk is less than ideal. So trying to argue the 300blk is superior over 6.8 because of its subsonic ability is just plain silly. Actually you have completely missed mine. To have both the subsonic performance and supersonic performance you are talking about you need two weapons, an AR in 6.8 and an HK in .45ACP. Or you could have that performance with a 300BLK and a magazine change. I'm not saying the 300BLK is better than 6.8. If you are looking strictly for performance the 6.8 beats it hands down across the board. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have it's advantages. You almost always give up something for versatility, such is life. If the trade offs aren't worth it then by all means, buy two platforms. Others may want what the 300BLK has to offer. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 7:37:05 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
The 220gr. .308 bullet in the .300 BLK starts with more energy than the .45 HST, and because of its higher BC, ends up with more energy at 100 yards.
This is not an accurrate statement. If your main priority is an effective subsonic bullet to use suppressed, I would look elsewhere than the 300blk. The 300blk has many other benefits worthy of consideratoin but the 220 grain loading isn't one of them. This I agree with. Energy does not equal terminal performance. That is why I pointed out the OSB expanding subsonic earlier. It and bullets like it really bring the 300BLK into its own for suppressed use. |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 2:15:20 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The 220gr. .308 bullet in the .300 BLK starts with more energy than the .45 HST, and because of its higher BC, ends up with more energy at 100 yards. This is not an accurrate statement. If you're main priority is an effective subsonic bullet to use suppressed, I would look elsewhere than the 300blk. The 300blk has many other benefits worthy of consideratoin but the 220 grain loading isn't one of them. Please suggest options that will be 220 grains (or thereabout,) while subsonic at the muzzle, have 500 ft. lb. energy at 100 yards, and use standard AR-15 bolt and magazines. Oh yeah, and have 125 grain supersonic loadings that have more energy than 5.56 and only 10% less than 110 grain 6.8 SPC at the muzzle. The .300 Whisper. What you obviously missed in my statement was "main priority" and "effective". If you want all those other things then by all means, go with the .300 blk. But please get your facts straight about the energy as well-10% is based on the original incorrect SPC chamber and propaganda by Advanced Armament. Also, there is some excellent reading on this very website about energy not being the critical variable when it comes to bullet terminal performance. The 6.8 beats all the 7.62 variants in real world testing by the Army. You can read about it here if you want to actually educate yourself... http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.8-mm-spc-cartridge-history-development-hornady-stag-arms-carbine/ Oh God, do we really need another 6.5G vs. 6.8 argument? I'm not arguing that the .300 BLK supersonic loads are better than the 6.8 SPC II loads. Nor would I argue that the 6.8 SPC II is 'better' than .300 Win Mag - except that it's MORE VERSATILE. I will argue that the suppressed .300 BLK has more versatility than the .45 ACP, and delivers superior energy downrange. Combined with a better bullet, it will render your argument completely moot. Look... shoot what you want. You want to shoot butterflies with a .218 Bee? Have at it! Hunt mosquitoes with the M-19 40mm Crew-Served Weapon? I'm happy for you! You want to write about it in American Rifleman? I'll read it, even if I may disagree with your conclusions....  |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 11:15:07 AM EDT
[#34]
The .300 blk is definitely a versatile cartridge and will fit the needs of alot of individuals. All I was saying was:
Don't hang it's superiority on its suppressed performance with the current 220 gr offering. Maybe some better bullets are coming in 220 to 250 grain, but ALL current rifle bullets need more than 1010 fps to perform adequately (no one has yet to post up the 220 gr velocity out of a 9 or 11 inch .300 blk barrel). Even the excellent Barnes 95 grain TTSX has a minimum velocity of 1600 fps for expansion. So yeah, you can swap mags to the heavy bullet for it to be a little quieter with the suppressor, but the question I keep asking through the whole thread is .... WHY would you??? The .300 blk in 220 grain does NOT deliver more energy downrange than a .45 HST +P. The 1000 fps with the HST is for a 6 inch barrel. I doubt the 220 gr .300 blk is moving anywhere near that velocity out of a 9 inch barrel. |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 12:24:04 PM EDT
[#35]
Just so you know this took 5 min to find off of Google.
954 fps out of a 10 inch using 220 gr SMK, but it will retain velocity and by extension energy, much better then the flying ash tray of a 45. I don't have a ballistic calc handy, but it should cross the 45 loading for retained energy rapidly down range. My guess would be <50 yards. You have to remember though it is designed to be fired from a 16 in, the load is still using pistol powder so it will not lose a ton of velocity. http://vuurwapenblog.com/2011/09/24/300-aac-blackout-subsonic-velocity-data/ Outlaw state bullet 50 yards subsonic shot into a Missouri doe. Pricey, but commercially available for reloading.  |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 12:50:16 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
954 fps out of a 10 inch using 220 gr SMK, but it will retain velocity and by extension energy, much better then the flying ash tray of a 45. I don't have a ballistic calc handy, Well I do , this is how it works out.
230gr XTP (.188 G1) @ 1000fps: @ Muzzle 514.5 ft-lbs @ 50y 463.2 ft-lbs @100y 422.4 ft-lbs @200y 358.7 ft-lbs 220gr SMK (.494 G1) @ 954fps @ Muzzle 445.4 ft-lbs @50y 432.2 ft-lbs @100y 420.1 ft-lbs @200y 397.7 ft-lbs Now energy really is meaningless. What does the bullet do? How big the permanent wound channel left behind is what is important. ETA: For grins I re-ran the calcs to generate bullet drop based on an AR-15 with a 100y zero. .45 @50y +3.5" .45 @200y -39.4" .300 @50y +3.6" .300 @200y -37.8" Not a nickle's worth of difference ballistically out to 200y |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 3:58:53 PM EDT
[#37]
So if you are going to mortar rounds into a target with the same velocity and energy, why not use the .45 since it is smaller and lighter?
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Posted: 12/20/2011 4:59:01 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
954 fps out of a 10 inch using 220 gr SMK, but it will retain velocity and by extension energy, much better then the flying ash tray of a 45. I don't have a ballistic calc handy, Well I do , this is how it works out.
230gr XTP (.188 G1) @ 1000fps: @ Muzzle 514.5 ft-lbs @ 50y 463.2 ft-lbs @100y 422.4 ft-lbs @200y 358.7 ft-lbs 220gr SMK (.494 G1) @ 954fps @ Muzzle 445.4 ft-lbs @50y 432.2 ft-lbs @100y 420.1 ft-lbs @200y 397.7 ft-lbs Now energy really is meaningless. What does the bullet do? How big the permanent wound channel left behind is what is important. ETA: For grins I re-ran the calcs to generate bullet drop based on an AR-15 with a 100y zero. .45 @50y +3.5" .45 @200y -39.4" .300 @50y +3.6" .300 @200y -37.8" Not a nickle's worth of difference ballistically out to 200y Forest, thanks for running the numbers. It was quite enlightening. I had no idea the 300WTF was that weak. |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 5:23:43 PM EDT
[#39]
I think the point is 300 is Silent suppressed, 45 is not silent suppressed.
Only reason to use 220 grain subsonic is for silence, why the F compare it to 45? |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 6:58:31 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
I think the point is 300 is Silent suppressed, 45 is not silent suppressed. Only reason to use 220 grain subsonic is for silence, why the F compare it to 45? Why the F go through all the trouble to mortar a 220gr bullet at 200yds? What do you consider "silent"? I've heard some pretty quite .45s, or maybe I didn't?? 
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Posted: 12/20/2011 7:59:59 PM EDT
[#41]
I know you guys think I am bagging on the 300blk, but I'm not. I just get peeved with all the fanboy exaggerated claims. It has some great advantages over 5.56 and is awesome for reloaders. I just don't think a heavy rifle bullet traveling at subsonic velocities is one of them. Certainly if you remove that heavy bullet offering, 6.8 offers better performance as far as effective range and terminal ballistics. Now granted, the 6.8 does require proprietary magazines and bolt, so for MANY people (as evidenced by all the 300blk glory threads), the slightly reduced performance of 300blk more than outweighs the additional entry fee into 6.8.
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Posted: 12/20/2011 8:04:09 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
I think the point is 300 is Silent suppressed, 45 is not silent suppressed. Only reason to use 220 grain subsonic is for silence, why the F compare it to 45? Well that is something you would have to determine. What is your primary use? Are you on a special ops team that only does silent entries in CQB situations? Are you using it for home defense? For fun? I'm just saying if you are choosing an SBR for maneuverability in close quarters and it is for an HD or combat situation, I would pick the terminal performance of the .45 over the quiet of the 300blk in 220 grain. I have rifles in multiple calibers but my bedside gun is a Glock 21 with Federal HST 230 +P's. Extremely accurrate, compact and manueverable, and quick to deploy. |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 8:04:25 PM EDT
[#43]
SOO, what exactly does a .45 have to do with this thread and my original post?
I have a .45, that's not what I was asking about. |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 8:09:00 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
SOO, what exactly does a .45 have to do with this thread and my original post? I have a .45, that's not what I was asking about. The .45 has to do with 300blk fanboys pointing to the subsonic performance of 300blk as being a reason to pick it over 6.8. The point was that the terminal ballistics of the 300blk 220 grain offering are marginal at best and for short-barreled suppressed use you would be much better off with a bullet designed to expand at those sub 1000 fps velocitiies. The other advantages of the .300blk make for a compelling case but subsonic suppressed use isn't one of them. I'd like to see some calibrated ballistic gel tests on these "new" 230 grain 300blk designs before I would change my mind. Other than painting a picture I'm done... peace out. |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 8:23:00 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think the point is 300 is Silent suppressed, 45 is not silent suppressed. Only reason to use 220 grain subsonic is for silence, why the F compare it to 45? Well that is something you would have to determine. What is your primary use? Are you on a special ops team that only does silent entries in CQB situations? Are you using it for home defense? For fun? I'm just saying if you are choosing an SBR for maneuverability in close quarters and it is for an HD or combat situation, I would pick the terminal performance of the .45 over the quiet of the 300blk in 220 grain. I have rifles in multiple calibers but my bedside gun is a Glock 21 with Federal HST 230 +P's. Extremely accurrate, compact and manueverable, and quick to deploy. I wouldn't choose subsonics for home defense, especially the versions using SMK's. They will overpenetrate and won't provide the terminal performance that a full velocity rifle round will provide. If you are going to use a rifle platform, don't limit yourself to handgun terminal performance. There are just much better options. As for the expanding subsonic rifle bullets, all the preliminary data on the OSB offering is good but it is anecdotal. DocGKR will only be testing factory rounds so he won't be doing them unless someone starts loading them commercially. If I have time, I plan to do some gel testing with the OSB bullet but I haven't had much time to mess with gel tests lately. |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 10:36:58 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
954 fps out of a 10 inch using 220 gr SMK, but it will retain velocity and by extension energy, much better then the flying ash tray of a 45. I don't have a ballistic calc handy, Well I do , this is how it works out.
230gr XTP (.188 G1) @ 1000fps: @ Muzzle 514.5 ft-lbs @ 50y 463.2 ft-lbs @100y 422.4 ft-lbs @200y 358.7 ft-lbs 220gr SMK (.494 G1) @ 954fps @ Muzzle 445.4 ft-lbs @50y 432.2 ft-lbs @100y 420.1 ft-lbs @200y 397.7 ft-lbs Now energy really is meaningless. What does the bullet do? How big the permanent wound channel left behind is what is important. ETA: For grins I re-ran the calcs to generate bullet drop based on an AR-15 with a 100y zero. .45 @50y +3.5" .45 @200y -39.4" .300 @50y +3.6" .300 @200y -37.8" Not a nickle's worth of difference ballistically out to 200y Sierra 220 should have been calculated at 1000 fps (that is the proper velocity out of 9" barrels), and the BC is actually 0.710 for G1 in the 900-1000 fps range. The numbers you ran were incorrect Forest.
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Posted: 12/21/2011 12:22:59 AM EDT
[#47]
The B.C. is .608 for 1000fps. .629 is the highest at 2100fps to 5000fps
Energy 489.5 - muzzle 473.2 - 50 458.2 - 100 431.3 - 200 drop +3.2 50 yards -34.4 200 yards Still not a nickles worth of difference. |
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Posted: 12/21/2011 12:39:37 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Sierra 220 should have been calculated at 1000 fps (that is the proper velocity out of 9" barrels), and the BC is actually 0.710 for G1 in the 900-1000 fps range. The numbers you ran were incorrect Forest. Ballistic FTE .300 BLK - 220gr SMK - 1,000 FPS - .608 G1 BC* - 100m zero
.45 ACP - 230gr - 1,000 FPS - .190 G1 BC - 100m zero
* This is the BC that Ballistic FTE lists for the 220gr SMK. Even with a .710 BC, the numbers are virtually the same. |
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Posted: 12/21/2011 1:39:30 AM EDT
[#49]
I'm using the SIerra Matchking 220gr at 1000fps. Not the Litz bullet. Is this what your are using? JBM has it listed at what I have in my last post.
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Posted: 12/21/2011 2:15:17 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: I'm using the SIerra Matchking 220gr at 1000fps. Not the Litz bullet. Is this what your are using? JBM has it listed at what I have in my last post. Same bullet, same velocity, same BC. I used Ballistic FTE, which uses JBM. Only difference, I used meters instead of yards. The difference it showed when I plugged in the .710 BC instead of the .608 BC was pretty negligible. |
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