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Basic
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Posted: 9/21/2011 7:23:24 PM EST
I am looking to build an AR geared toward accuracy. I am looking at the 5.56, 6.8 SPC, and 6.5 Grendel when I came upon the .264 LBC-AR. I did some searching online and it is Les Baer's version of the 6.5 without having to give money to Bill Alexander which was the very reason I was leaning away from the 6.5. Now my question is (please do not flame me for a stupid question), can I use 6.5 Grendel ammo in a .264 LBC AR? I did do a search here and on Google but I got more confused the more I looked around.
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Posted: 9/21/2011 7:42:07 PM EST
6.5 Grendel Hornady factory ammo shoots .5" groups in my 264 LBC. Les gave Alexander Arms the finger when they boosted the licensing fee's. The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.
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Posted: 9/22/2011 3:11:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2011 3:14:00 AM EST by AlexanderArms]
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Posted: 9/22/2011 6:05:10 AM EST
i have a Model 1 Sales SBR 6.5 Grendel (or whatever Model 1 calls it) and it shoots both ammo. i found the Hornady and Wolf ammo shoot more accurately out of my gun than the .264 LBC-AR match ammo though.
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Posted: 9/22/2011 6:19:22 AM EST
From what I've heard and been told the 6.5 LBC is pretty well through being SAAMI specced which the Grendel is not. We'll see what the future holds for Hornady producing 6.5 Grendel Ammo. I'll bet they lean more towards manufacturing 264 LBC ammo.

The only truth I've seen in your post is reason why Les dropped Alexander Arms. It was over an entirely different issue.

The only way to make an accuracy claim for either chamber would be a laboratory test under ideal conditions using more then one or two rifles representative of each manufacturer using a wide variety of factory ammo and handloads. As I am aware that has not been done.

To answer the poster both ammo's are interchangeable.
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Posted: 9/22/2011 6:36:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.

Agree with this,
Black Hills 264 ammo with 123gr SMKs will easily shoot under 1/2"

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Posted: 9/22/2011 6:52:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.

Agree with this,
Black Hills 264 ammo with 123gr SMKs will easily shoot under 1/2"



I don't agree. I can get the same with handloads in the Grendel
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Posted: 9/22/2011 7:14:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By CORNHOLIO1:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.

Agree with this,
Black Hills 264 ammo with 123gr SMKs will easily shoot under 1/2"



I don't agree. I can get the same with handloads in the Grendel


Well yeah with handloads but that is out of the box factory ammo shooting less than 1/2" groups. It will do the Same with 100gr Barnes TTSX, 107 SMK, 108 Lapua and 123 AMAX handloaded.
We have tested both enough to see the difference, the tighter neck diameter and standard match type (non compound angle Grendel) throat is more accurate in our tests.
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Posted: 9/22/2011 7:52:31 AM EST
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Posted: 9/22/2011 9:34:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2011 9:34:23 AM EST by Gunwritr]
Originally Posted By DeutschLuger61:
From what I've heard and been told the 6.5 LBC is pretty well through being SAAMI specced which the Grendel is not.


False

What would Boxer do?

A dead whale or a stove boat.
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Posted: 9/22/2011 9:36:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
Les gave Alexander Arms the finger when they boosted the licensing fee's.


Again, False. See post 3.


What would Boxer do?

A dead whale or a stove boat.
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Posted: 9/22/2011 9:38:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2011 9:39:27 AM EST by Gunwritr]
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



OH SNAP!

This is a fact that the various AA haters need to contemplate.
What would Boxer do?

A dead whale or a stove boat.
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Posted: 9/22/2011 10:14:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



OH SNAP!

This is a fact that the various AA haters need to contemplate.


Indeed.

People are so quick to post assumptions while being ignorant of all the facts.

I, myself will be getting a 6.5 upper next year. I’ll not give LB a dime. Some manufacturers have a superiority complex and LB is certainly one of them. Much rather go to the source anyway. The exception is .300 Whisper vs. .300 Blackout. For me, the .300 BLK is the way to go. J.D. Jones can go pound sand.


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Posted: 9/22/2011 7:12:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2011 7:20:23 PM EST by Gunwritr]
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By CORNHOLIO1:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.

Agree with this,
Black Hills 264 ammo with 123gr SMKs will easily shoot under 1/2"



I don't agree. I can get the same with handloads in the Grendel


Well yeah with handloads but that is out of the box factory ammo shooting less than 1/2" groups. It will do the Same with 100gr Barnes TTSX, 107 SMK, 108 Lapua and 123 AMAX handloaded.
We have tested both enough to see the difference, the tighter neck diameter and standard match type (non compound angle Grendel) throat is more accurate in our tests.


The group at left was fired with a 20 inch AA GDMR and is well under a half inch (slightly below .3 if I remember correctly).
The group at right is .6 and was fired from an AA 16 inch carbine with a chrome lined 'M4' type barrel.
Both were shot using factory 6.5mm Grendel Hornady ammo. My GDMR has posted 3-4 inch groups at 600 yards, with factory Hornady ammunition.
In my experience the Grendel chamber shoots a wider range of bullet lengths/weights more consistently then
other designs. This is especially true when you get into lighter/shorter bullet designs such as the old 90 grain TNT AA factory load.
This was the reason why this chamber design was developed........



On the flip side, Les builds a great rifle, they are beautifully made, very reliable and very accurate. If you decide to purchase
a Les Baer I'm sure you will be very happy with it. The .264 LBC AR cartridge is a 6.5mm Grendel cartridge with a different headstamp.
I have shot .5 inch groups with my two Les Baers.
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A dead whale or a stove boat.
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Posted: 9/23/2011 3:29:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By CORNHOLIO1:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.

Agree with this,
Black Hills 264 ammo with 123gr SMKs will easily shoot under 1/2"



I don't agree. I can get the same with handloads in the Grendel


Well yeah with handloads but that is out of the box factory ammo shooting less than 1/2" groups. It will do the Same with 100gr Barnes TTSX, 107 SMK, 108 Lapua and 123 AMAX handloaded.
We have tested both enough to see the difference, the tighter neck diameter and standard match type (non compound angle Grendel) throat is more accurate in our tests.


I only shoot handloads. It has never seen factory. The way I like it
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Posted: 9/23/2011 3:38:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



OH SNAP!

This is a fact that the various AA haters need to contemplate.


yeah that pretty much seems to end it, doesn't it? kinda hard to argue with a quality standard.

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Posted: 9/23/2011 5:15:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:

2. If we did crank up the "fee" it would still be a total value of nothing. We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



So if LB wanted to make a Grumble chambered barrel, even if it did yelid better results, they would have to pay AA to do so?
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Posted: 9/23/2011 6:10:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2011 6:11:09 PM EST by GrendelAA]
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Posted: 9/23/2011 8:10:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2011 8:16:43 PM EST by RuLins05]
Originally Posted By GrendelAA:
Originally Posted By 346ci:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:

2. If we did crank up the "fee" it would still be a total value of nothing. We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



So if LB wanted to make a Grumble chambered barrel, even if it did yelid better results, they would have to pay AA to do so?


Alexander Arms never charged a fee to Les Baer to build Grendels. The licensing was always an issue of meeting a quality standard, and never involved a fee. Les Baer is free to build whatever he sees fit to build. When he chose to use the trademark Grendel name, he was required simply to build it to the Grendel specification, nothing else was required.





I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?


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Posted: 9/23/2011 9:20:51 PM EST
I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?




Several? The only one I am aware of was Satern.

The whole story is more complex than it has been made to sound, and a technical forum is not the place to discuss it.

The Grendel cartridge itself has been approved by SAAMI. As I understand it, its simply the details regarding release of the trademark that remain to be cleared up.

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Posted: 9/24/2011 3:41:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By GrendelAA:
Originally Posted By 346ci:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:

2. If we did crank up the "fee" it would still be a total value of nothing. We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



So if LB wanted to make a Grumble chambered barrel, even if it did yelid better results, they would have to pay AA to do so?


Alexander Arms never charged a fee to Les Baer to build Grendels. The licensing was always an issue of meeting a quality standard, and never involved a fee. Les Baer is free to build whatever he sees fit to build. When he chose to use the trademark Grendel name, he was required simply to build it to the Grendel specification, nothing else was required.





If that was the case, LB must have seen some areas that could have been improved and started their own chamber.
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Posted: 9/24/2011 6:49:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By bwaites:
I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?




Several? The only one I am aware of was Satern.

The whole story is more complex than it has been made to sound, and a technical forum is not the place to discuss it.


The Grendel cartridge itself has been approved by SAAMI. As I understand it, its simply the details regarding release of the trademark that remain to be cleared up.



Contrary to your belief I think a technical forum is just the place to explain the entire story. I'm not trying to knock AA but I can assure you the ongoing drama involving AA has me reconsidering my next barrel purchase. And just to put that into perspective, if you check your records you'll find AA just shipped my first Grendel barrel yesterday along with a lot of brass. But that barrel is only 1 of 2 Grendels I'm looking to build. I'm sure I'm not the only one reading these threads while considering who to purchase a barrel from.
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Posted: 9/24/2011 8:05:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2011 8:12:59 AM EST by RuLins05]
Originally Posted By bwaites:
I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?




Several? The only one I am aware of was Satern.

The whole story is more complex than it has been made to sound, and a technical forum is not the place to discuss it.

The Grendel cartridge itself has been approved by SAAMI. As I understand it, its simply the details regarding release of the trademark that remain to be cleared up.



Saturn and MidwayUSA's in house brand, AR-Stoner. I don't exactly know the relationship between Saturn and Liberty but they also no longer carry Grendel or Beowulf but now have the lbc in their line up. There's three that I know of for sure but thought there was at least one more
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Posted: 9/24/2011 8:45:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By bwaites:
I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?




Several? The only one I am aware of was Satern.

The whole story is more complex than it has been made to sound, and a technical forum is not the place to discuss it.

The Grendel cartridge itself has been approved by SAAMI. As I understand it, its simply the details regarding release of the trademark that remain to be cleared up.




That doesn't make sense and is an ambiguous statement. It can't be approved until the trademark fiasco has been settled. Maybe you meant to say it has passed the requirements, but it's not finalized, again, because of the trademark.
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Posted: 9/24/2011 9:06:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By RuLins05:
Originally Posted By bwaites:
I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?




Several? The only one I am aware of was Satern.

The whole story is more complex than it has been made to sound, and a technical forum is not the place to discuss it.

The Grendel cartridge itself has been approved by SAAMI. As I understand it, its simply the details regarding release of the trademark that remain to be cleared up.



Saturn and MidwayUSA's in house brand, AR-Stoner. I don't exactly know the relationship between Saturn and Liberty but they also no longer carry Grendel or Beowulf but now have the lbc in their line up. There's three that I know of for sure but thought there was at least one more


As you mentioned Saturn and AR-Stoner, also Satern is involved with Liberty barrels so that's another one gone, then we have one of the first to leave and was Lothar Walther, and last Sabre. Now in all fairness Sabre didn't quit making barrels for AA, they were arrested by the ATF and have gone out of business. I'm not sure who picked them up. So not counting Sabre that's four.

I question to why AA has a terrific sale on their 6.5 Grendel receivers. I mean they sold for practically cost, why? If business is that booming for them why sell off the receivers? Are they going to dump the Grendel? Makes one wonder.
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Posted: 9/24/2011 10:10:29 AM EST
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Posted: 9/24/2011 10:16:34 AM EST
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Posted: 9/24/2011 10:18:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
[ Makes one wonder.


"Wonder" is supposition with no factual basis. Tell me again about the SAAMI process?



The SAAMI process is very well defined on their website. I suggest that you read it. Why the super sale on 6.5 receivers?

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Posted: 9/24/2011 11:32:36 AM EST
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Posted: 9/24/2011 11:35:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2011 11:39:31 AM EST by Gunwritr]
Originally Posted By DeutschLuger61:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
[ Makes one wonder.


"Wonder" is supposition with no factual basis. Tell me again about the SAAMI process?



The SAAMI process is very well defined on their website. I suggest that you read it. Why the super sale on 6.5 receivers?



Ummm......if you spend five minutes checking the web you'll find many good deals on stripped receivers.
A number of companies have been selling them at similar prices.
Why? Anyone in the industry knows July/August and the beginning of Sept is the slow time of the season.

Why are you telling him to read it when the Grendel has already been through the process?

If business is so bad for AA how did they just have the ability to hire on one of the best known and respected
people in the industry?

What company do you work for/are associated with again?
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A dead whale or a stove boat.
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Posted: 9/24/2011 11:40:39 AM EST
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Posted: 9/24/2011 3:29:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2011 3:32:17 PM EST by harleyrkc]
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
[ Makes one wonder.


"Wonder" is supposition with no factual basis. Tell me again about the SAAMI process?



Thanks for the english lesson. But your the vendor and we're the customers, so maybe you should explore "Wonder" as a verb.
2. To be filled with curiosity or doubt.
Because thats where a few of us are at and its going to effect business sooner or later. Defensive answers aren't going to put the issue to rest.

Edited to add:
BTW..... I'm not questioning your sales, the Hornady brass sale was much appreciated.
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Posted: 9/24/2011 3:31:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By DeutschLuger61:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
[ Makes one wonder.


"Wonder" is supposition with no factual basis. Tell me again about the SAAMI process?



The SAAMI process is very well defined on their website. I suggest that you read it. Why the super sale on 6.5 receivers?



Ummm......if you spend five minutes checking the web you'll find many good deals on stripped receivers.
A number of companies have been selling them at similar prices.
Why? Anyone in the industry knows July/August and the beginning of Sept is the slow time of the season.

Why are you telling him to read it when the Grendel has already been through the process?

If business is so bad for AA how did they just have the ability to hire on one of the best known and respected
people in the industry?

What company do you work for/are associated with again?


Why do you ask that David? Do I have work for and represent some part of the industry to be allowed to post on here?

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Posted: 9/24/2011 3:40:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By DeutschLuger61:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
[ Makes one wonder.


"Wonder" is supposition with no factual basis. Tell me again about the SAAMI process?



The SAAMI process is very well defined on their website. I suggest that you read it. Why the super sale on 6.5 receivers?



Ummm......if you spend five minutes checking the web you'll find many good deals on stripped receivers.
A number of companies have been selling them at similar prices.

Why? Anyone in the industry knows July/August and the beginning of Sept is the slow time of the season.

Why are you telling him to read it when the Grendel has already been through the process?

If business is so bad for AA how did they just have the ability to hire on one of the best known and respected
people in the industry?


Quiet now Mr. Fortier. I need the sympathy vote, you'll take the edge off the panhandling gig



I doubt he'll take the edge off anything. I'm right you know and what makes you so right? I didn't see you at the last shot show, if business was that great why weren't you there? What new products have you fielded since the 6.5 Grendel and 50 Beowulf? You've been in business how long now, someting like ten years? I'm asking legitimate questions. I don't see why you have to have someone else represent you when you're posting here. I have more questions. Is Lapua going to sell you more brass? That is great brass you know. I'm waiting to see that major foreign ammunition company come aboard with the 6.5 Grendel also. I was talking to a friend of yours, Eran Bauer. He had much to say about you. I have a much better understanding of you how came along to the point where you are with Alexander Arms. Does Fortier know him?

One last thing. I'm very interested in obtaining a AR 15 in 22 Magnum that you are suppose to be working on. When do you think that will be available?
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Posted: 9/24/2011 4:15:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By DeutschLuger61:

Why do you ask that David? Do I have work for and represent some part of the industry to be allowed to post on here?



No, anyone can post here. But it is against forum rules to troll another company if you are associated with
a competitor.......
What would Boxer do?

A dead whale or a stove boat.
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Posted: 9/24/2011 5:21:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By DeutschLuger61:

Why do you ask that David? Do I have work for and represent some part of the industry to be allowed to post on here?



No, anyone can post here. But it is against forum rules to troll another company if you are associated with
a competitor.......


I can assure you I'm not a troll.

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Posted: 9/24/2011 5:45:55 PM EST
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Posted: 9/24/2011 5:54:14 PM EST
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Posted: 9/24/2011 7:28:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
Sorry I missed the answer about Lapua, Yes we just received the next shipment from Lapua and will continue to work with them not only on the Grendel but also some others. Lapua are an exceptional company to work with and as the Grendel grows we will be moving forward with them.

This morning I spent some time looking at a newly arrived case of Grendel from the new supplier. There is a lot of work to conclude before much more can be posted but again yes we have a new entry in the ammunition field. Not going to be anything like the Lapua we use in our manufacture but I am sure a lot of shooters will welcome this when it starts to hit the shelves.



I appreciate the answer to my questions. I really hope you get the 22 magnum worked out as it's a favorite of mine. I know the 17 is the hot rimfire going, but I still think the 22 Mag is a better round with more terminal performance.
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Posted: 9/25/2011 7:03:13 AM EST
As we are on the topic of the 6.5 Grendel and .264 LBC, I'd like to validate/verify my understanding of the differences between the two.

I've read in one or another of the popular publications that the primary difference between the 6.5 Grendel and the .264 LBC is in the throat. As I remember, it was stated the Grendel uses a compound throat to maximize performance across a wide range of 6.5mm bullet diameters and shapes, from the lightweights to the heavies, while the .264 LBC's throat is intended to be optimized for the 123 grain projectiles that the industry appears to consider the optimum "all-round" projectile for the cartridge. If I'm incorrect in this assumption, I sincerely apologize.

Also, if I remember correctly, the 6.5 Grendel uses a bolt that has been further improved and optimized over the traditional 7.62x39mm AR bolt for use in the 6.5 Grendel. I have no idea about the .264 LBC, but would expect them to be using the Grendel-style bolt over the 7.62x39mm bolt, but I have no information one way or the other. Given the extent to which this cartridge is capable of expanding the ballistic envelope of the AR-15, I deeply appreciate the work that Mr. Alexander has put into turning out high quality designs.

The alternative-caliber AR-15 is an exciting world to explore.
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Posted: 9/25/2011 7:50:23 AM EST
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Posted: 9/25/2011 7:58:48 AM EST
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Posted: 9/25/2011 10:05:28 AM EST
Mr. Alexander,

Thanks for those posts. Very, very cool. The testing and engineering behind the 6.5 Grendel is fascinating.

As shooters today, we are truly experiencing a cornucopia of riches.
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Posted: 9/25/2011 10:58:10 AM EST
Bill,

I know ths isn't what the thread is about, but we already broke the ice here on the 17 HMR. You may find this test interesting since you are going to field one.
You may have seen this already, but here it is:

http://www.bullberry.com/HMRdata.html
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Posted: 9/25/2011 11:42:45 AM EST
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Posted: 9/25/2011 12:03:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
Thank you for the interesting reference

We are not going to field a 17 HMR, we are already fielding it. The unit uses an 18" barrel with a 1/2-28 threaded muzzle. This was shown in our testing to be about the most efficient for the cartridge. We have run this both with and without suppresion with no function issues. It worked out to be quite an involved conversion as we needed not only the upper but also a mag block, extended mag latch, recoil cassette, magazines and even a chamber brush. The uptake has been nothing short of stellar for this product so perhaps I worried too much about the costs. Demand has been so high that we now run a 17 HMR designated lower in which the block is cross pinned so it is legal for California without the use of a mag button. Mags are 10 round currently.

Interestingly this has taken nearly 3 1/2 years to get to a position where we are actually confident with the design during this time we built upwards of 20 prototypes not including some rebuilds and shot well over 50,000 rounds of ammunition. The longer pressure duration is problematic and demands a careful system balance if it is to work well. To date the only field problems seen have been in guns fitted with two stage or target triggers ( the stock conversion is designed for regular hammers). The lighter hammer and spring weights allow excessive bolt acceleration which causes the bolt to loose control of the empty case at too high an incident. We have just completed testing a heavy replacement buffer which will be an optional replacement for those customers who wish to run such fire control groups.

The 22 WMR you are interested in, was easy to balance for bolt speed but this cartridge does not want to feed reliably. The long parallel case can be persuaded to shuck from the magazine into the chamber but lead nose bullets cause failures. Working prototypes are easy, but a production route for the ramping on the barrel is not easy to achieve in a robust manner suitable for mass production. This is not to say the project is abandoned just we are already scheduled to work on the new weapons system and never intended to dive into the 22 WMR.


Interesting. For your information I believe Remington pulled their semi auto rifle in 17 HMR off the market. They had a recall for the rifles. I wonder what the problem was.

A good number of years ago Rick Jamison was taking 22 mag ammo and pulling the bullets and dumping the powder, then necking the case down to 17 caliber. Thiis is way before any of the 17 rim fires came about. He cautioned against doing it as the case is still primed and being a rim fire more susceptible to an accident. I'm not saying he was the first to do this, but he did write about. I'm sure others experimented with it

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Posted: 9/25/2011 12:43:02 PM EST
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Posted: 9/25/2011 4:58:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2011 4:58:53 PM EST by RUM]
This thread needs more Grendel pics


OP, while Les Baer's pistols are works of art I don't think all that is nessacery for an accurate AR.
The one I built above consistantly shoots .5 MOA groups, with my personal 123A-Max handloads. There is a lot of hate for the Grendel for some reason on this site, I don't know why because it's a HELL of a round.
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Posted: 9/25/2011 5:53:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By RUM:
There is a lot of hate for the Grendel for some reason on this site, I don't know why because it's a HELL of a round.


The issue is not "if" is a good round, it certainley is a good one, not the answer to all problems though. The issue is the person pushing it and their practices.
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Posted: 9/25/2011 6:00:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By RUM:
This thread needs more Grendel pics
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae52/762RUM/ec1b7f62.jpg

OP, while Les Baer's pistols are works of art I don't think all that is nessacery for an accurate AR.
The one I built above consistantly shoots .5 MOA groups, with my personal 123A-Max handloads. There is a lot of hate for the Grendel for some reason on this site, I don't know why because it's a HELL of a round.


+1 RUM. Where did you get that handguard?

I just finished my grendel (minus quality scope) and I loved it before I finished it. Finishing it for me was taking off the handguards and installing vtac ff tube. Now I just have to find a range around here so I can sight this bad mama jama in. The only problem I have with grendel (was the rarity of ammo but that seems fixed now) is the mags. I have 14 CProducts mags (7 14/15 and 7 25/26) with all but 2 in the plastic. The 2 that are out don't feed properly and mess the bullets up especially if you load them all up and that's why the rest are still in the plastic, fun show coming up. I'm thinking about the stoner mags by midway but might just go the 10 rounders from AA. I'd rather go with AA but the reviews are so-so at best. I guess my rant is that I'd like to see better/more mag options for the grendel because I hate loading only 4-6 rounds in.
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Posted: 9/25/2011 6:08:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By RUM:
This thread needs more Grendel pics
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae52/762RUM/ec1b7f62.jpg

OP, while Les Baer's pistols are works of art I don't think all that is nessacery for an accurate AR.
The one I built above consistantly shoots .5 MOA groups, with my personal 123A-Max handloads. There is a lot of hate for the Grendel for some reason on this site, I don't know why because it's a HELL of a round.



Rum,

What brand hand guard is that on your rifle. Very nice rifle by the way.
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