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mfast10
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Posted: 9/22/2011 12:23:24 AM
I am looking to build an AR geared toward accuracy. I am looking at the 5.56, 6.8 SPC, and 6.5 Grendel when I came upon the .264 LBC-AR. I did some searching online and it is Les Baer's version of the 6.5 without having to give money to Bill Alexander which was the very reason I was leaning away from the 6.5. Now my question is (please do not flame me for a stupid question), can I use 6.5 Grendel ammo in a .264 LBC AR? I did do a search here and on Google but I got more confused the more I looked around.
riflecrank
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Posted: 9/22/2011 12:42:07 AM
6.5 Grendel Hornady factory ammo shoots .5" groups in my 264 LBC. Les gave Alexander Arms the finger when they boosted the licensing fee's. The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.
AlexanderArms
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Posted: 9/22/2011 8:11:09 AM
[Last Edit: 9/22/2011 8:14:00 AM by AlexanderArms]
That reply has one or two slight errors that need some clarification.

1. Les Baer never paid a single cent to Alexander Arms to build Grendels.

2. If we did crank up the "fee" it would still be a total value of nothing. We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.

3. The LBC chamber is not any more accurate, in fact Grendel chambers report more accuracy with a wider range of loads on average.

4. There is no industry load data verified for these non Grendel wildcat chambers and little if any ammunition.

Burnsome-
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Posted: 9/22/2011 11:05:10 AM
i have a Model 1 Sales SBR 6.5 Grendel (or whatever Model 1 calls it) and it shoots both ammo. i found the Hornady and Wolf ammo shoot more accurately out of my gun than the .264 LBC-AR match ammo though.
DeutschLuger61
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Posted: 9/22/2011 11:19:22 AM
From what I've heard and been told the 6.5 LBC is pretty well through being SAAMI specced which the Grendel is not. We'll see what the future holds for Hornady producing 6.5 Grendel Ammo. I'll bet they lean more towards manufacturing 264 LBC ammo.

The only truth I've seen in your post is reason why Les dropped Alexander Arms. It was over an entirely different issue.

The only way to make an accuracy claim for either chamber would be a laboratory test under ideal conditions using more then one or two rifles representative of each manufacturer using a wide variety of factory ammo and handloads. As I am aware that has not been done.

To answer the poster both ammo's are interchangeable.
Tim_W
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Posted: 9/22/2011 11:36:06 AM
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.

Agree with this,
Black Hills 264 ammo with 123gr SMKs will easily shoot under 1/2"

CORNHOLIO1
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Posted: 9/22/2011 11:52:06 AM
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.

Agree with this,
Black Hills 264 ammo with 123gr SMKs will easily shoot under 1/2"



I don't agree. I can get the same with handloads in the Grendel
Tim_W
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Posted: 9/22/2011 12:14:44 PM
Originally Posted By CORNHOLIO1:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.

Agree with this,
Black Hills 264 ammo with 123gr SMKs will easily shoot under 1/2"



I don't agree. I can get the same with handloads in the Grendel


Well yeah with handloads but that is out of the box factory ammo shooting less than 1/2" groups. It will do the Same with 100gr Barnes TTSX, 107 SMK, 108 Lapua and 123 AMAX handloaded.
We have tested both enough to see the difference, the tighter neck diameter and standard match type (non compound angle Grendel) throat is more accurate in our tests.
AlexanderArms
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Posted: 9/22/2011 12:52:31 PM
The SAAMI specification is for the 6.5 Grendel. The round was sponsored by Hornady and the technical sign off is for the Grendel dimension under the Grendel name. The information proffered in respect to alternative designations and dimensions is not correct We are somewhat well placed to have this information first hand both from Hornady and SAAMI.

Regarding comments about testing the chambers it is interesting to see this brought out by Tim-W, a gentleman who is intrinsically involved with the 6.8 SPC. Perhaps his testing is not as extensive as is required to fully determine which design offers the best utility across the board. This is understandable as he is primarily concerned with other cartridges.

Conversely as the company who actually draw and created the Grendel, tested multiple prototype chamber designs (including tight necks and traditional throats) not in just singular barrels but in runs, we are probably better placed than anyone to proffer the observations on the chamber designs and what works for this cartridge.


Gunwritr
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Posted: 9/22/2011 2:34:02 PM
[Last Edit: 9/22/2011 2:34:23 PM by Gunwritr]
Originally Posted By DeutschLuger61:
From what I've heard and been told the 6.5 LBC is pretty well through being SAAMI specced which the Grendel is not.


False

What would Boxer do?

A dead whale or a stove boat.
Gunwritr
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Posted: 9/22/2011 2:36:09 PM
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
Les gave Alexander Arms the finger when they boosted the licensing fee's.


Again, False. See post 3.


What would Boxer do?

A dead whale or a stove boat.
Gunwritr
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Posted: 9/22/2011 2:38:27 PM
[Last Edit: 9/22/2011 2:39:27 PM by Gunwritr]
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



OH SNAP!

This is a fact that the various AA haters need to contemplate.
What would Boxer do?

A dead whale or a stove boat.
HiVelSword
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Posted: 9/22/2011 3:14:46 PM
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



OH SNAP!

This is a fact that the various AA haters need to contemplate.


Indeed.

People are so quick to post assumptions while being ignorant of all the facts.

I, myself will be getting a 6.5 upper next year. I’ll not give LB a dime. Some manufacturers have a superiority complex and LB is certainly one of them. Much rather go to the source anyway. The exception is .300 Whisper vs. .300 Blackout. For me, the .300 BLK is the way to go. J.D. Jones can go pound sand.


Gunwritr
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Posted: 9/23/2011 12:12:31 AM
[Last Edit: 9/23/2011 12:20:23 AM by Gunwritr]
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By CORNHOLIO1:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.

Agree with this,
Black Hills 264 ammo with 123gr SMKs will easily shoot under 1/2"



I don't agree. I can get the same with handloads in the Grendel


Well yeah with handloads but that is out of the box factory ammo shooting less than 1/2" groups. It will do the Same with 100gr Barnes TTSX, 107 SMK, 108 Lapua and 123 AMAX handloaded.
We have tested both enough to see the difference, the tighter neck diameter and standard match type (non compound angle Grendel) throat is more accurate in our tests.


The group at left was fired with a 20 inch AA GDMR and is well under a half inch (slightly below .3 if I remember correctly).
The group at right is .6 and was fired from an AA 16 inch carbine with a chrome lined 'M4' type barrel.
Both were shot using factory 6.5mm Grendel Hornady ammo. My GDMR has posted 3-4 inch groups at 600 yards, with factory Hornady ammunition.
In my experience the Grendel chamber shoots a wider range of bullet lengths/weights more consistently then
other designs. This is especially true when you get into lighter/shorter bullet designs such as the old 90 grain TNT AA factory load.
This was the reason why this chamber design was developed........



On the flip side, Les builds a great rifle, they are beautifully made, very reliable and very accurate. If you decide to purchase
a Les Baer I'm sure you will be very happy with it. The .264 LBC AR cartridge is a 6.5mm Grendel cartridge with a different headstamp.
I have shot .5 inch groups with my two Les Baers.
What would Boxer do?

A dead whale or a stove boat.
CORNHOLIO1
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Posted: 9/23/2011 8:29:51 PM
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By CORNHOLIO1:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By riflecrank:
The only difference is that the .264 LBC chamber shoots better than a Grendel.

Agree with this,
Black Hills 264 ammo with 123gr SMKs will easily shoot under 1/2"



I don't agree. I can get the same with handloads in the Grendel


Well yeah with handloads but that is out of the box factory ammo shooting less than 1/2" groups. It will do the Same with 100gr Barnes TTSX, 107 SMK, 108 Lapua and 123 AMAX handloaded.
We have tested both enough to see the difference, the tighter neck diameter and standard match type (non compound angle Grendel) throat is more accurate in our tests.


I only shoot handloads. It has never seen factory. The way I like it
2minkey
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Posted: 9/23/2011 8:38:49 PM
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:
We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



OH SNAP!

This is a fact that the various AA haters need to contemplate.


yeah that pretty much seems to end it, doesn't it? kinda hard to argue with a quality standard.

346ci
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Posted: 9/23/2011 10:15:48 PM
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:

2. If we did crank up the "fee" it would still be a total value of nothing. We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



So if LB wanted to make a Grumble chambered barrel, even if it did yelid better results, they would have to pay AA to do so?
GrendelAA
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Posted: 9/23/2011 11:10:44 PM
[Last Edit: 9/23/2011 11:11:09 PM by GrendelAA]
Originally Posted By 346ci:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:

2. If we did crank up the "fee" it would still be a total value of nothing. We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



So if LB wanted to make a Grumble chambered barrel, even if it did yelid better results, they would have to pay AA to do so?


Alexander Arms never charged a fee to Les Baer to build Grendels. The licensing was always an issue of meeting a quality standard, and never involved a fee. Les Baer is free to build whatever he sees fit to build. When he chose to use the trademark Grendel name, he was required simply to build it to the Grendel specification, nothing else was required.



RuLins05
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Posted: 9/24/2011 1:10:13 AM
[Last Edit: 9/24/2011 1:16:43 AM by RuLins05]
Originally Posted By GrendelAA:
Originally Posted By 346ci:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:

2. If we did crank up the "fee" it would still be a total value of nothing. We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



So if LB wanted to make a Grumble chambered barrel, even if it did yelid better results, they would have to pay AA to do so?


Alexander Arms never charged a fee to Les Baer to build Grendels. The licensing was always an issue of meeting a quality standard, and never involved a fee. Les Baer is free to build whatever he sees fit to build. When he chose to use the trademark Grendel name, he was required simply to build it to the Grendel specification, nothing else was required.





I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?


bwaites
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Posted: 9/24/2011 2:20:51 AM
I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?




Several? The only one I am aware of was Satern.

The whole story is more complex than it has been made to sound, and a technical forum is not the place to discuss it.

The Grendel cartridge itself has been approved by SAAMI. As I understand it, its simply the details regarding release of the trademark that remain to be cleared up.

346ci
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Posted: 9/24/2011 8:41:21 AM
Originally Posted By GrendelAA:
Originally Posted By 346ci:
Originally Posted By AlexanderArms:

2. If we did crank up the "fee" it would still be a total value of nothing. We do not actually charge anything for building Grendels or the ammunition. The license was concerned with standardization of the caliber in the absence of SAAMI. A situation that is now remedied.



So if LB wanted to make a Grumble chambered barrel, even if it did yelid better results, they would have to pay AA to do so?


Alexander Arms never charged a fee to Les Baer to build Grendels. The licensing was always an issue of meeting a quality standard, and never involved a fee. Les Baer is free to build whatever he sees fit to build. When he chose to use the trademark Grendel name, he was required simply to build it to the Grendel specification, nothing else was required.





If that was the case, LB must have seen some areas that could have been improved and started their own chamber.
harleyrkc
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Posted: 9/24/2011 11:49:28 AM
Originally Posted By bwaites:
I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?




Several? The only one I am aware of was Satern.

The whole story is more complex than it has been made to sound, and a technical forum is not the place to discuss it.


The Grendel cartridge itself has been approved by SAAMI. As I understand it, its simply the details regarding release of the trademark that remain to be cleared up.



Contrary to your belief I think a technical forum is just the place to explain the entire story. I'm not trying to knock AA but I can assure you the ongoing drama involving AA has me reconsidering my next barrel purchase. And just to put that into perspective, if you check your records you'll find AA just shipped my first Grendel barrel yesterday along with a lot of brass. But that barrel is only 1 of 2 Grendels I'm looking to build. I'm sure I'm not the only one reading these threads while considering who to purchase a barrel from.
Stupidity should hurt!

You can polish a turd all day long, but at the end of the day you still have a piece of shit!
RuLins05
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Posted: 9/24/2011 1:05:38 PM
[Last Edit: 9/24/2011 1:12:59 PM by RuLins05]
Originally Posted By bwaites:
I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?




Several? The only one I am aware of was Satern.

The whole story is more complex than it has been made to sound, and a technical forum is not the place to discuss it.

The Grendel cartridge itself has been approved by SAAMI. As I understand it, its simply the details regarding release of the trademark that remain to be cleared up.



Saturn and MidwayUSA's in house brand, AR-Stoner. I don't exactly know the relationship between Saturn and Liberty but they also no longer carry Grendel or Beowulf but now have the lbc in their line up. There's three that I know of for sure but thought there was at least one more
DeutschLuger61
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Posted: 9/24/2011 1:45:57 PM
Originally Posted By bwaites:
I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?




Several? The only one I am aware of was Satern.

The whole story is more complex than it has been made to sound, and a technical forum is not the place to discuss it.

The Grendel cartridge itself has been approved by SAAMI. As I understand it, its simply the details regarding release of the trademark that remain to be cleared up.




That doesn't make sense and is an ambiguous statement. It can't be approved until the trademark fiasco has been settled. Maybe you meant to say it has passed the requirements, but it's not finalized, again, because of the trademark.
DeutschLuger61
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Posted: 9/24/2011 2:06:09 PM
Originally Posted By RuLins05:
Originally Posted By bwaites:
I'm confused, so then when several companies all the sudden decided to stop producing Grendel and Beowulf barrels it was because they didn't want to build exactly to AA specs? Isn't that required when they make barrels around a SAAMI cartridge as well?

Not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just trying to understand what happened. As it was described in several bulletins and forums companies couldn't come to an agreement because of an "onerous licensing agreement" but if it was as simple as it is being made to seem here. . . It seems like no one is willing to tell the whole story.

One other question, how long (rough estimate) will it be until SAAMI actually considers the cartridge among 'their' list of cartridges. Won't this allow any SAAMI member to produce the Grendel stuff without AA's consent?




Several? The only one I am aware of was Satern.

The whole story is more complex than it has been made to sound, and a technical forum is not the place to discuss it.

The Grendel cartridge itself has been approved by SAAMI. As I understand it, its simply the details regarding release of the trademark that remain to be cleared up.



Saturn and MidwayUSA's in house brand, AR-Stoner. I don't exactly know the relationship between Saturn and Liberty but they also no longer carry Grendel or Beowulf but now have the lbc in their line up. There's three that I know of for sure but thought there was at least one more


As you mentioned Saturn and AR-Stoner, also Satern is involved with Liberty barrels so that's another one gone, then we have one of the first to leave and was Lothar Walther, and last Sabre. Now in all fairness Sabre didn't quit making barrels for AA, they were arrested by the ATF and have gone out of business. I'm not sure who picked them up. So not counting Sabre that's four.

I question to why AA has a terrific sale on their 6.5 Grendel receivers. I mean they sold for practically cost, why? If business is that booming for them why sell off the receivers? Are they going to dump the Grendel? Makes one wonder.
AlexanderArms
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Posted: 9/24/2011 3:10:29 PM
There are no trademark issues so nothing needs to be resolved.

Grendel sales are actually very good and the caliber is booming.
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