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otaviod
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Posted: 11/4/2011 3:31:33 PM
Some photos to help you:

1) Picture of a hole of barrel in upper of the original AR15:


2) Picture of the hole in an upper modified to Safir T14. Note that at the bottom of the hole was demoted. This avoids feeding problems.


3) Back of an upper modified. You need to follow this design to fit perfectly the ejector tab.


You can make these two changes with a Dremel.

After that, just plug the barrel of the Safir T14 in the upper modified.
Place the delta ring of your choice.
If the barrel does not get tight, with a dremel, cut a little of the Delta ring to let him fix the barrel firmly.

Then mount the gas system and put the handguard of your choice. Remember that not all AR handguards to serve in the Safir because of its gas system, which has a rather large diameter.

[]'s

[]'s
WolfRulz
WolfRulz
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Posted: 11/4/2011 5:02:15 PM
THANKS Otaviod !!!! Great help. Between my Dremel and Drill Press attachment I hve gotten pretty good at simple mill work - these pics help greatly ! Is that a plug in the Gas Port?
I can provide you a link to a Carbine length Quad Rail that I found on eBay that is large enough to fit over the T-14 Piston. email me and I'll send you the link.
Let the Zombies Come . . . .
WolfRulz
WolfRulz
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Posted: 11/4/2011 5:08:15 PM
And while we are all Noodling and Tinkering - has any one attempted Shortening the Barrel and going for an SBS stamp?
I'm not sure what the issues around possible reduced pressure and the T-14 Piston function would be. I'm not thinking REALLY short - maybe just take it down to 14 inched (including the Flash).
Any ideas?
Let the Zombies Come . . . .
otaviod
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Posted: 11/4/2011 10:09:18 PM
Originally Posted By WolfRulz:
And while we are all Noodling and Tinkering - has any one attempted Shortening the Barrel and going for an SBS stamp?
I'm not sure what the issues around possible reduced pressure and the T-14 Piston function would be. I'm not thinking REALLY short - maybe just take it down to 14 inched (including the Flash).
Any ideas?


About handguard:
Any handguard with 1.47" inner diameter is ok. Just ask seller.
I use Troy TRX, this handguard have 1.44 of inner diameter.
I had to use a half-round file to achieve the correct diameter.

About barrel:
Yes, you can.
But a .410 slug or Buckshot in 21" barrel is more effective than most of pistols calibers, in pistols, of course.
If you need a home defense T14. Just let the barrel in original size.
If its only your another AR upper, i think will be cool, but you upper lose efective power.

But is better you will do several tests, the best thing to do is buy an extra barrel separately.

[]'s

WolfRulz
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Posted: 11/4/2011 10:30:32 PM
Thanks - Yea - once you start "Hacking" you can never go back - have a spare barrel to fix it back to stock set is a good idea.
Let the Zombies Come . . . .
Tomtbo
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Posted: 11/5/2011 4:26:36 AM
Originally Posted By WolfRulz:
And while we are all Noodling and Tinkering - has any one attempted Shortening the Barrel and going for an SBS stamp?
I'm not sure what the issues around possible reduced pressure and the T-14 Piston function would be. I'm not thinking REALLY short - maybe just take it down to 14 inched (including the Flash).
Any ideas?



Derringers that fire .410 and .45 Colt are legal because they aren't over .50 caliber (destructive device), and have about a 1/2" of rifling, so they don't qualify as a smooth-bore sawed-off shot gun. A .45 caliber rifled barrel blank chambered for .410 shouldn't require a tax stamp.

WolfRulz
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Posted: 11/5/2011 3:40:35 PM
That's a great tip for a scratch build - one could make it any length they wanted under 16" barrel length as long as the lower was stamped for SBR.
Now you've REALLY got me thinkin'. THANKS !
Let the Zombies Come . . . .
475AR10
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Posted: 11/5/2011 11:27:45 PM
Originally Posted By WolfRulz:
And while we are all Noodling and Tinkering - has any one attempted Shortening the Barrel and going for an SBS stamp?
I'm not sure what the issues around possible reduced pressure and the T-14 Piston function would be. I'm not thinking REALLY short - maybe just take it down to 14 inched (including the Flash).
Any ideas?


Next week I will be sending a letter to the ATF to find out just what it will take to SBS the T14 upper
jhereg
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Posted: 11/6/2011 9:03:35 PM
[Last Edit: 11/6/2011 9:03:57 PM by jhereg]

Originally Posted By WolfRulz:
That's a great tip for a scratch build - one could make it any length they wanted under 16" barrel length as long as the lower was stamped for SBR.
Now you've REALLY got me thinkin'. THANKS !

SBS. It's a shotgun and it would be 18".
Not while I breathe.
WolfRulz
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Posted: 11/6/2011 11:06:21 PM
Originally Posted By 475AR10:
Originally Posted By WolfRulz:
And while we are all Noodling and Tinkering - has any one attempted Shortening the Barrel and going for an SBS stamp?
I'm not sure what the issues around possible reduced pressure and the T-14 Piston function would be. I'm not thinking REALLY short - maybe just take it down to 14 inched (including the Flash).
Any ideas?


Next week I will be sending a letter to the ATF to find out just what it will take to SBS the T14 upper


What length are you thinking about ?? I'm concerned about the reduced pressure from a shorter than stock barrel. Worth more study - may or may not be an issue - but I'm new to these piston based systems. Busy making mods to my standard AR Upper Receiver based on info from our friend in Brazil - very helpful!
Let the Zombies Come . . . .
WolfRulz
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Posted: 11/7/2011 7:38:14 PM
OK thanks to the very helpful photos - all mods are completed. My T-14 is back together with the new-improved metal receiver. All functions PERFECT. I took the opportunity to smooth out the ramp on the barrel and all rounds chamber a lot better. Well worth a bit of tinkering - made a good upper GREAT !
Let the Zombies Come . . . .
otaviod
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Posted: 11/8/2011 6:56:29 AM
Great.
Have fun with your new improved T14.

[]'s
jhereg
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Posted: 11/8/2011 7:00:49 AM

Next week I will be sending a letter to the ATF to find out just what it will take to SBS the T14 upper[/

Why send a letter? You can't sbs the upper. You wou would file a normal form 1 on the lower as a sbs.



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Not while I breathe.
Tomtbo
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Posted: 11/8/2011 8:13:28 AM
Originally Posted By jhereg:

Next week I will be sending a letter to the ATF to find out just what it will take to SBS the T14 upper[/

Why send a letter? You can't sbs the upper. You wou would file a normal form 1 on the lower as a sbs.



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile



A Taurus Judge fires .410 shotshells, has a barrel well under 18", yet it is not classified as an illegal "sawed-off" shotgun because the barrel is rifled. Why can't we do the same thing with an AR-15?

475AR10
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Posted: 11/8/2011 8:47:21 AM
Originally Posted By jhereg:

Next week I will be sending a letter to the ATF to find out just what it will take to SBS the T14 upper[/

Why send a letter? You can't sbs the upper. You wou would file a normal form 1 on the lower as a sbs.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


That would be correct for a normal shotgun, but as you pointed out the upper it self can not
Be registered, but could it be done on an sbr registered lower? Or would it need to be permanently attached
To a lower and then registered as an sbs? The ATF would have to make a ruling on that, and they may also just say no to it.
jhereg
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Posted: 11/8/2011 9:07:56 AM
Originally Posted By 475AR10:
Originally Posted By jhereg:

Next week I will be sending a letter to the ATF to find out just what it will take to SBS the T14 upper[/

Why send a letter? You can't sbs the upper. You wou would file a normal form 1 on the lower as a sbs.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


That would be correct for a normal shotgun, but as you pointed out the upper it self can not
Be registered, but could it be done on an sbr registered lower? Or would it need to be permanently attached
To a lower and then registered as an sbs? The ATF would have to make a ruling on that, and they may also just say no to it.


What is there to rule on? Fill out a form 1 with barrel length and caliber as 410. Refister as sbs. Nothing to write a letter on.


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Not while I breathe.
WolfRulz
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Posted: 11/8/2011 11:23:20 PM
Originally Posted By jhereg:
Originally Posted By 475AR10:
Originally Posted By jhereg:

Next week I will be sending a letter to the ATF to find out just what it will take to SBS the T14 upper[/

Why send a letter? You can't sbs the upper. You would file a normal form 1 on the lower as a sbs.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


That would be correct for a normal shotgun, but as you pointed out the upper it self can not
Be registered, but could it be done on an sbr registered lower? Or would it need to be permanently attached
To a lower and then registered as an sbs? The ATF would have to make a ruling on that, and they may also just say no to it.


What is there to rule on? Fill out a form 1 with barrel length and caliber as 410. Register as sbs. Nothing to write a letter on.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Based on how I read the Form 1 usage, qualifications and requirements (and I have filed a few) I would say that the "no ruling required" would apply and as said - you just specify the barrel length and caliber as .410 then file for SBS - but this as also said - since the Lower on the AR platform is what "officially" is registered then how does the "once you get an SBR stamp on a lower ANY short barrel upper can be covered when placed on that lower - no matter what was on the original Form 1 as long as it can be put back to original state when filed" apply??? It's something for the Lawyers to argue about (but better to get an ATF ruling rather than the court and Lawyer costs - not to mention Fines and PRISON if you lose). I wish it was less murky but - there you go.
I was just wondering if there would be a problem with a shortened barrel producing enough pressure to assure reliable cycling via the piston system.
Let the Zombies Come . . . .
jhereg
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Posted: 11/9/2011 12:02:21 AM

Originally Posted By WolfRulz:
Originally Posted By jhereg:
Originally Posted By 475AR10:
Originally Posted By jhereg:

Next week I will be sending a letter to the ATF to find out just what it will take to SBS the T14 upper[/

Why send a letter? You can't sbs the upper. You would file a normal form 1 on the lower as a sbs.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


That would be correct for a normal shotgun, but as you pointed out the upper it self can not
Be registered, but could it be done on an sbr registered lower? Or would it need to be permanently attached
To a lower and then registered as an sbs? The ATF would have to make a ruling on that, and they may also just say no to it.


What is there to rule on? Fill out a form 1 with barrel length and caliber as 410. Register as sbs. Nothing to write a letter on.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Based on how I read the Form 1 usage, qualifications and requirements (and I have filed a few) I would say that the "no ruling required" would apply and as said - you just specify the barrel length and caliber as .410 then file for SBS - but this as also said - since the Lower on the AR platform is what "officially" is registered then how does the "once you get an SBR stamp on a lower ANY short barrel upper can be covered when placed on that lower - no matter what was on the original Form 1 as long as it can be put back to original state when filed" apply??? It's something for the Lawyers to argue about (but better to get an ATF ruling rather than the court and Lawyer costs - not to mention Fines and PRISON if you lose). I wish it was less murky but - there you go.
I was just wondering if there would be a problem with a shortened barrel producing enough pressure to assure reliable cycling via the piston system.

You could put any length shotgun barrel on it. It would be a SBS so it wouldn't cover SBR stuff, and a SBR stamp wouldn't cover the SBS upper. From my understanding you'd essentially be building a lower that would only work NFA w/ something like this. Not a huge issue IMO w/ the cost of AR lowers.

I don't know about the technical side of this. I'm sure you could make it run with a short barrel, but I'm not sure what it would take.

Not while I breathe.
WolfRulz
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Posted: 11/13/2011 1:52:44 PM
Originally Posted By WolfRulz:
OK thanks to the very helpful photos - all mods are completed. My T-14 is back together with the new-improved metal receiver. All functions PERFECT. I took the opportunity to smooth out the ramp on the barrel and all rounds chamber a lot better. Well worth a bit of tinkering - made a good upper GREAT !


OK here are the test results after Desert Testing - Feeding / Chambering is erratic - some rounds do fine other catch and damage cartridge (need to look closer at the Ramp again). Ejection is functioning normal. I did notice some Bulging in the brass on some cases, (see photo link below) but not all - appeared to be random except with the Winchester Slugs.

Case Brass Bulging
Let the Zombies Come . . . .
Tomtbo
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Posted: 11/13/2011 4:52:29 PM
I'm now a member of the AR-15 .410 Safirarms T-14 club. Got a cardboard tube from Classic Firearms, slid the upper out, and thought either my fingers have swollen, or that's a smaller carry handle! Swabbed the bore out (very dirty) and function fired Remington Express #6 shot (all I have in 2 1/2"). Two failures to feed (bolt rode over shell and pinched it), extraction and ejection flawless. The silly loose FSB shot forward, and the foregrips popped out; nothing that an allen wrench didn't cure. Very easy to disassemble and clean. I will be using metal parts here and there, but I'm satisfied with the basic design. Magtech brass seems the way to go, since I already load .450 Bushmaster with Hodgdon Lil'gun.
WolfRulz
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:08:38 PM
Originally Posted By Tomtbo:
I'm now a member of the AR-15 .410 Safirarms T-14 club. Got a cardboard tube from Classic Firearms, slid the upper out, and thought either my fingers have swollen, or that's a smaller carry handle! Swabbed the bore out (very dirty) and function fired Remington Express #6 shot (all I have in 2 1/2"). Two failures to feed (bolt rode over shell and pinched it), extraction and ejection flawless. The silly loose FSB shot forward, and the foregrips popped out; nothing that an allen wrench didn't cure. Very easy to disassemble and clean. I will be using metal parts here and there, but I'm satisfied with the basic design. Magtech brass seems the way to go, since I already load .450 Bushmaster with Hodgdon Lil'gun.


Very interested in your loading data for the MagTech brass and the .410 - I have been thinking that it will ultimately be the reliable way to go with this upper. I have also thought that maybe a heavier Buffer (like the one from my AR57 Upper) may help the Bulging Brass issue - any thoughts there?
Let the Zombies Come . . . .
bobweaver
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Posted: 11/13/2011 10:00:03 PM
Anyone brave enough to try a 45 LC yet? I would think that if it handles slugs just fine it should handle 45 LC as well. What do you think the pressure difference is?
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Tomtbo
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:46:21 AM
Originally Posted By bobweaver:
Anyone brave enough to try a 45 LC yet? I would think that if it handles slugs just fine it should handle 45 LC as well. What do you think the pressure difference is?



.410 bore is just that. A .45 LC bullet is .452 diameter. If the barrel doesn't rupture, it sure would get stuck. A Barnaul 97gr. slug is .400 diameter encased in a plastic wad.

otaviod
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Posted: 11/14/2011 6:02:02 AM
[Last Edit: 11/14/2011 6:02:33 AM by otaviod]
Originally Posted By bobweaver:
Anyone brave enough to try a 45 LC yet? I would think that if it handles slugs just fine it should handle 45 LC as well. What do you think the pressure difference is?


European model (available in Brazil) works with .44-40. No pressure problems. I think the U.S model have a same barrel as European model.

[]'s
otaviod
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Posted: 11/14/2011 6:06:21 AM
Originally Posted By Tomtbo:
I'm now a member of the AR-15 .410 Safirarms T-14 club. Got a cardboard tube from Classic Firearms, slid the upper out, and thought either my fingers have swollen, or that's a smaller carry handle! Swabbed the bore out (very dirty) and function fired Remington Express #6 shot (all I have in 2 1/2"). Two failures to feed (bolt rode over shell and pinched it), extraction and ejection flawless. The silly loose FSB shot forward, and the foregrips popped out; nothing that an allen wrench didn't cure. Very easy to disassemble and clean. I will be using metal parts here and there, but I'm satisfied with the basic design. Magtech brass seems the way to go, since I already load .450 Bushmaster with Hodgdon Lil'gun.


It's a bit aggressive, but after I rounded the corners of the chamber with a Dremel (entrance of the barrel) never had feeding problems. But we no have Remington ammo here, just tested that Magtech and Winchester. Slugs and Buckshots.

[]'s
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