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Oh, how the ghost of you clings...
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Posted: 9/29/2010 7:11:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2010 7:12:02 PM EST by Cold]
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Posted: 9/29/2010 9:19:32 PM EST
Soooo, 300 Whisper is now mainstream? They trying to piss off JD?
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Posted: 9/29/2010 9:22:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By W-D:
Soooo, 300 Whisper is now mainstream? They trying to piss off JD?


Sounds more like 7.62x40.
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Posted: 9/30/2010 12:53:55 AM EST
Why no pictures of the round?


Either way, color me interested.
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Posted: 9/30/2010 1:36:27 AM EST
It seems to me there is a lot of talk in this area but no real action. I've been looking for variant barrels for awhile now with no luck.

Looking for the 30 HRT and 7.62x40.

Anyone knows of any stocking dealers?

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Posted: 9/30/2010 2:32:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2010 2:33:08 AM EST by 98Z5V]
Originally Posted By ARmory04:
Why no pictures of the round?




Link to AAC's site within the Military Times article. It's a 7.62 x 35.



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Posted: 9/30/2010 3:43:05 AM EST
So 30 years ago the Soviets changed from 7.62x39 to 5.46x39 to mimmic the Nato 5.56 and now we are going to go to a 7.62x35 to mimic the 7.62x39?

I guess history does repeat itself.
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Posted: 9/30/2010 4:46:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2010 4:48:01 AM EST by 762x40mm]
Originally Posted By 98Z5V:
Originally Posted By ARmory04:
Why no pictures of the round?




Link to AAC's site within the Military Times article. It's a 7.62 x 35.






HK has had their AR version of the Whisper for years, it's the 7.62x37mm



A comparison of the Blackout to the SD platform is somewhat slanted......comparison to the AR platform HKx37 would be a little more even

300 Whisper.....7.62x~33mm....supersonic/subsonic
Blackout.....7.62x35mm....supersonic/subsonic
HK.....7.62x37mm.....supersonic/subsonic
7.62ARk....7.62x38mm.....supersonic/subsonic
7.62x40mm.....primarily supersonic
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Posted: 9/30/2010 5:10:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2010 5:11:05 AM EST by Brahmzy]
That is an extremely STRANGE looking round. How does this compare ballistically to the 6.8SPC? Better? Faster? Flatter? Obviously it's got more knockdown and mass for expansion, but it looks SLOW.

Regardless, I want a 12.5.
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Posted: 9/30/2010 5:39:20 AM EST
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Posted: 9/30/2010 6:56:17 AM EST
How many times can we re-invent the 7.62x39.........
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Posted: 9/30/2010 7:25:03 AM EST
Even though it can be seen as reinventing the 7.62x39, doing something like this can have advantages that the 7.62x39 does not have. With this design one of the aims seems to be being able to load it in standard AR type magazines unlike the x39 that needs special magazines. Another thing is that it can be standardized to use .308 diameter bullets instead of the x39s .311 diameter, this gives a much wider selection of bullets. Lastly, unlike things like the 300 whisper this cartridge is being brought out by a more major company and could lead to success because of this backing.
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Posted: 9/30/2010 7:51:30 AM EST
So Kurt's 7.62x40 and JD's 300 Whisper had an offspring, the 7.62x35 (300 Blackout)....

This may be good as I have both a 7.62x40 and a 300/221 (Whisper) and I think the potential of both has not been realized. Here's hoping Remington doesn't drop the ball again...

As for the 7.62x39 being remade, that isn't really true. While ballistics of the supersonics may be similar 7.62x39 has traditionally been available only with poor bullets and has way too much case taper for the AR mag well. It also has a larger case head that makes for thinner bolt faces. I think this round can find it's niche, though I don't imagine it will replace 5.56 as the primary NATO caliber anytime soon.
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Posted: 9/30/2010 10:39:50 AM EST
Very interesting. Although my knowledge is limited when it comes to ballistics, I just wonder how long it takes for a new round to get off the ground and become "mainstream"/readily available. I'd love to get into the variants world but I do not reload and don't want to spend big bucks on hard to find ammo.
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Posted: 9/30/2010 10:54:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By nick1983:
How many times can we re-invent the 7.62x39.........


Exactly...

"Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62×39 ballistics"

Know what matches 7.62X39 ballistics really well?

Umm... 7.62X39
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Posted: 9/30/2010 12:44:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
How many times can we re-invent the 7.62x39.........


Exactly...

"Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62×39 ballistics"

Know what matches 7.62X39 ballistics really well?

Umm... 7.62X39


You missed "compatible". If you want 7.62x39 ballistics in an AK sure, go 7.62x39. If you want it in an AR there are better options.
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Posted: 9/30/2010 12:48:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
How many times can we re-invent the 7.62x39.........


Exactly...

"Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62×39 ballistics"

Know what matches 7.62X39 ballistics really well?

Umm... 7.62X39


You missed "compatible". If you want 7.62x39 ballistics in an AK sure, go 7.62x39. If you want it in an AR there are better options.


Much better...The 5.56 bolt face in the AR-15 platform is far superior to a 7.62 bolt face, as are 5.56 mags to 7.62x39 mags...
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Posted: 9/30/2010 3:07:52 PM EST
Look at it for what it is. You have a platform that fires a 7.62 caliber cartridge in an AR SBR sized platform that cycles subsonic ammunition reliably and is backed by one of the largest arms manufacturer as well as suppressor manufacturer.

I would think this is aimed at door kickers primarily LEO and MIL. Clear a room with suppressed M-16s firing supersonic ammo and it's still f...ing loud. Now fire a 220GR subsonic round and look at the difference. Hopefully with Remington's backing, it will not be $42.00 per box of 20 or restricted to those who like to reload (300 Whisper, 300/221, etc.).

Anyway, it does prove how modular the AR platform is.
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Posted: 9/30/2010 5:14:55 PM EST
From the upper's owner's manual...

HANDLOADING
If you load your own ammo, pay special attention to all of the normal safety practices. Recommended powders for most supersonic loads are Hodgdon H110 and Lil’Gun. For subsonic, there are special requirements and nearly all published loads are non-optimal for the 300 BLK upper. Many existing loads were developed for Thompson Center® single-shot pistols, or for ARs by people not aware of
the magazine limitations. These loads pay no attention to automatic rifle function and should not be used. Look for a load which results in a cyclic rate of 700 rpm or more. AA1680 is recommended because its bulk density matches the case capacity and it will generate enough gas pressure to cycle the weapon.

PARTS REPLACEMENT
Barrel RECREATIONAL USE______ 50,000 rounds
Barrel HARD USE / COMPETITION__35,000 rounds
Barrel MISSION-CRITICAL USE____20,000 rounds
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Posted: 9/30/2010 6:32:59 PM EST
Woo Hoo! I think I just decided on my #3 300 BLK.

My #s so far

#2 .223/5.56
#4 458 SOCOM
#5 50 Beowulf

Hmmmm, anyone make a .17 upper?
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Posted: 9/30/2010 6:58:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By Minuteman:
Woo Hoo! I think I just decided on my #3 300 BLK.

My #s so far

#2 .223/5.56
#4 458 SOCOM
#5 50 Beowulf

Hmmmm, anyone make a .17 upper?


I don't know about .17, but I think the .204 Ruger would make a very nice #1 for you.


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Posted: 9/30/2010 7:00:50 PM EST
It's a decent idea. I'd rather see 6X35 for supersonic applications. But subsonic has its uses too.
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Posted: 9/30/2010 7:50:43 PM EST
For subsonic applications, I think it is a good idea.
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Posted: 9/30/2010 7:57:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By chewbacca:
For subsonic applications, I think it is a good idea.


+1

i was just about ready to order up a 300 whisper but I think I'll hold off a little and see if these make it to market in a reasonable amount of time. Maybe like by the time I get the stamp for my EVO-9
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Posted: 10/1/2010 4:40:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2010 4:41:12 AM EST by Xylene86]
it says uppers go into production in october 2010 soooo now..
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Posted: 10/1/2010 4:46:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By Minuteman:
Woo Hoo! I think I just decided on my #3 300 BLK.

My #s so far

#2 .223/5.56
#4 458 SOCOM
#5 50 Beowulf

Hmmmm, anyone make a .17 upper?


yes, do a search.
Alexander Arms offers a .17HMR rifle (also called Ghengis)
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Posted: 10/1/2010 5:31:44 AM EST
Wow, I can hardly wait....what's next the 11.6 SOCOM

It's just another JD work-around.

It was done with the 300-221
the 300 fireball
HK did it with the 7.62x37mm
now the Blackout

I've fired .223 based supersonic/subsonic .30 cals on 30, 33, 35, 37, and 38mm length cases....

The larger than Whisper 35mm case makes subsonic standard deviations worse.....leads to vertical stringing

And the 1680 that they suggest for reliable cycling will increase by about a grain and a half, about 40 to 50 fps over the Whisper....

It's an opportunity that the "bigs" have to sell more hardware.
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Posted: 10/1/2010 7:34:00 AM EST
why buy a complete upper, would a barrel swap not be sufficient?

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Posted: 10/1/2010 8:25:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2010 8:26:42 AM EST by JesseJames]
That's exactly what I'm thinking. I REALLY hope they sell seperate barrels!

ETA, yes only a barrel swap. Everything else in the rifle is the same as 5.56
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Posted: 10/1/2010 8:37:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2010 8:39:09 AM EST by Stickman]
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Posted: 10/1/2010 8:43:39 AM EST
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Posted: 10/1/2010 10:02:25 AM EST
Here is my version I just finished... LMT MRP with a 10.5" Noveske 300 Fireball / Whisper barrel dropped in. I personally decided on a 300 Whisper over 7.62x39 because it uses reformed 223 brass, standard pmags, and 556 bolts.





Noveske 300 FB 8T
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Posted: 10/1/2010 10:25:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By PVFD304:
It seems to me there is a lot of talk in this area but no real action. I've been looking for variant barrels for awhile now with no luck.

Looking for the 30 HRT and 7.62x40.

Anyone knows of any stocking dealers?



PM sent
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Posted: 10/1/2010 10:32:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2010 10:33:16 AM EST by cav_scout_tj]
Originally Posted By Stickman:
Originally Posted By ARmory04:
Why no pictures of the round?


Either way, color me interested.


I didn't have the ammunition on hand when I wrote the article, so I couldn't take any pictures of it. When I get the ammunition, and write up an evaluation based on live fire usage (including FA & Suppressed), I'll include more images.


My understanding is that barrels are in the works. There is no need to buy a complete upper unless you don't want to rebarrel one of your existing ones.


Please look at some 300/221 or 300 whiper rounds. I am still thinking this new thing is close enough to work in a whisper. The whisper trim to length is 1.355 which is 34.42mm. Given the sloppy nature of chambers and trimming, I would feel fine pulling the trigger on a 7.62x35 BAK in my 300 whisper. I am confident it will chamber just fine. 35mm is 1.378" –– well within tolerances I think. Try some 300 W rounds in the BAK barrel and vice versa.

My bet is that it will be backwards compatible with most 300 whisper guns, but they are not eager to say so ––JDJ law suit?

There is an old thread with lots on trim length over on the 300 W forums:
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=453

Seems length is not that critical.

My AAC suppressor likes 300 W just fine:
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Posted: 10/1/2010 10:36:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By cav_scout_tj:
Originally Posted By Stickman:
Originally Posted By ARmory04:
Why no pictures of the round?


Either way, color me interested.


I didn't have the ammunition on hand when I wrote the article, so I couldn't take any pictures of it. When I get the ammunition, and write up an evaluation based on live fire usage (including FA & Suppressed), I'll include more images.


My understanding is that barrels are in the works. There is no need to buy a complete upper unless you don't want to rebarrel one of your existing ones.


Please look at some 300/221 or 300 whiper rounds. I am still thinking this new thing is close enough to work in a whisper. The whisper trim to length is 1.355 which is 34.42mm. Given the sloppy nature of chambers and trimming, I would feel fine pulling the trigger on a 7.62x35 BAK in my 300 whisper. I am confident it will chamber just fine. 35mm is 1.378" –– well within tolerances I think. Try some 300 W rounds in the BAK barrel and vice versa.

My bet is that it will be backwards compatible with most 300 whisper guns, but they are not eager to say so ––JDJ law suit?

There is an old thread with lots on trim length over on the 300 W forums:
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=453

Seems length is not that critical.

My AAC suppressor likes 300 W just fine:
http://listmequick.com/AR10/100_1329.JPG


That would be sweet to see this ammo mass produced if W compatible
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Posted: 10/1/2010 12:08:15 PM EST
Just saw this on AAC's Facebook page. Seems like the caliber we've all been waiting for. Hard hitting, quiet, and seats 30 in a standard GI magazine. Comes in 123gr, 155gr, and 220gr flavors. This thing is going to be the HEAT like Bobby Deniro!

I'm downing a pitcher of this AAC/Remington Kool-aid right now! First thing Monday morning, I'm calling Mers at AAC to see about getting an upper and some ammo.

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Posted: 10/1/2010 1:49:09 PM EST
Dont know why some one just does not come up with a AR that takes AK mags.

For me it is simple. It is either one of my Ar's or my S.A. SOCOM 16.

i used to back in the day only take my M1 A if i thought game or large varmints may be encountered on my day to day routine until i found out stuff i was shooting with my SP-1 carbine sure was dropping just as dead. Now its my SPR in 5.56 that gets out more than anything.
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Posted: 10/1/2010 3:49:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By Brahmzy:
That is an extremely STRANGE looking round. How does this compare ballistically to the 6.8SPC? Better? Faster? Flatter? Obviously it's got more knockdown and mass for expansion, but it looks SLOW.

Regardless, I want a 12.5.


It will not compare to the 6.8 SPC in terms of faster or flatter. Assuming this round can improve on 300 Whisper by 100fps you'll see velocities like 2200fps for the 123gr bullet, 2000fps for the 155gr bullet, and around 1000fps for the 220 (since subsonic is the point) in an SBR. Add about 100-150 fps or so for a 16" barrel and maybe 50-100fps more for a 20" barrel.

This round will likely be very efficient in short barrels just like the 300 Whisper and the 7.62x40. It has a large bore to case diameter ratio and uses fast burning powder. That is also why you won't gain much in a longer barrel. The case volume and powder burn rate won't take advantage of a long tube.

A long range gun it will not be. For CQB or suppressed work it could be very useful provided they use the right bullets.
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Posted: 10/1/2010 5:59:58 PM EST
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Posted: 10/1/2010 7:44:31 PM EST
I don't really get it. For long range (unsuppressed, obviously), I'd much rather use a 6.8 SPC. For short range, suppressed use, the .300BLK delivers 498 ft-lbf at the muzzle. That's in the .40S&W - .45ACP range of energy, and those suppress just fine. And it seems to me that you would need to either pick a twist rate for 123 grain or 220 grain, which means even though the round is versatile, your particular gun is only going to use one or the other (I think).

So it's outclassed at long range and has the energy of a handgun bullet at close range? For those who want it, I'm sure it'll be their favorite toy because suppressing a subsonic round is awesome fun. But suppressed rifle rounds suck compared to their full power relatives, and this one's full power relative doesn't have any point in the wake of .223 and 6.8. AAC keeps comparing it it 7.62x39, but that's honestly not what it's competing against. Cool round, but where's the application for it?
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Posted: 10/1/2010 9:46:07 PM EST
Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here!

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Posted: 10/1/2010 10:28:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By GeneralPurpose:
I don't really get it. For long range (unsuppressed, obviously), I'd much rather use a 6.8 SPC. For short range, suppressed use, the .300BLK delivers 498 ft-lbf at the muzzle. That's in the .40S&W - .45ACP range of energy, and those suppress just fine.

Did you not think that, it's not designed for long range unsuppressed use? We all know there are a lot better long range calibers out there that can fit into a AR15 magazine. And how often do you see a 40S&W and 45ACP upper for the AR15? And also use AR15 mags, which pretty much everyone here has.


And it seems to me that you would need to either pick a twist rate for 123 grain or 220 grain, which means even though the round is versatile, your particular gun is only going to use one or the other (I think).


1/8 twist will stabilize everything from a 123-220 grain 30 cal bullet just fine. No need to pick different twist rates.



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Posted: 10/2/2010 8:23:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By Messiah:
Originally Posted By GeneralPurpose:
I don't really get it. For long range (unsuppressed, obviously), I'd much rather use a 6.8 SPC. For short range, suppressed use, the .300BLK delivers 498 ft-lbf at the muzzle. That's in the .40S&W - .45ACP range of energy, and those suppress just fine.

Did you not think that, it's not designed for long range unsuppressed use? We all know there are a lot better long range calibers out there that can fit into a AR15 magazine. And how often do you see a 40S&W and 45ACP upper for the AR15? And also use AR15 mags, which pretty much everyone here has.


And it seems to me that you would need to either pick a twist rate for 123 grain or 220 grain, which means even though the round is versatile, your particular gun is only going to use one or the other (I think).


1/8 twist will stabilize everything from a 123-220 110-240 grain 30 cal bullet just fine. No need to pick different twist rates.





Fixed it for you. A 1:8 Whisper barrel will shoot 110's fine and still stabilize 240's. The only disadvantage to the fast twist is you won't get peak velocity with the smaller bullets and you may get more throat wear.
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Posted: 10/2/2010 6:49:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2010 6:50:29 PM EST by jasonusvi]
Got my first 500pcs of outsourced WCC 300 Whisper brass today. 75gn 223 reload vs my first 175gn 300 Whisper dummy round. Chambers and ejects perfectly from my Noveske 300 chamber with standard 556 bolt (after body sizing in my 223 die). Can't wait to shoot a few next weekend.

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Posted: 10/3/2010 7:41:46 AM EST
300 Whisper/Fireball/Blackout tend to NOT have issues with throat erosion and excessive barrel wear due to the low powder volume coupled with relatively large bore diameter...
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Posted: 10/3/2010 11:21:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By DocGKR:
300 Whisper/Fireball/Blackout tend to NOT have issues with throat erosion and excessive barrel wear due to the low powder volume coupled with relatively large bore diameter...


Doc, have you done any testing with the Whisper? I'm just wondering if you've had any luck finding good terminal performance at he reduced velocity. If not, I don't see how this round could begin to replace 5.56 or other calibers. I hope to do some gel testing with my 300/221 and my 7.62x40 soon. My department may be doing some testing on 5.56 ammo soon so I'm plan to learn the process buy some of my own gelatin.
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Posted: 10/3/2010 11:33:00 AM EST
A .30 caliber round in this day and age, are they losing it?

There's a range of projectile diameters suitable for the AR platform, none of which are .30 caliber. The choices are from 6.5mm to 7mm, and that's it.

But, I'm sure that there's someone out there quite willing to spend government money to rediscover the above.
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Posted: 10/3/2010 3:02:41 PM EST
A .30 caliber round in this day and age, are they losing it?

There's a range of projectile diameters suitable for the AR platform, none of which are .30 caliber. The choices are from 6.5mm to 7mm, and that's it.

But, I'm sure that there's someone out there quite willing to spend government money to rediscover the above.


I'm pretty sure you are a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC troll but for anyone interested in this cartridge like I am who is a newb to AR variants here is my take:

This isn't a full power 30 caliber like .308 or .30-06. It is an intermediate cartridge designed to be comparable to 7.62x39 at supersonic velocities (arguably the most successful military cartridge in the world) and to also provide reliable subsonic rounds in the same gun. That is a huge range of applications from the same gun for both LEO and civilian needs all in an AR platform with just a barrel change. I've been planning on a 300 Whisper for several applications but will take a hard look at the 300 Blackout since it will be SAAMI certified and will have support from major manufacturers. Supersonic = deer out to around 200 yards, varmits, plinking. Supressed subsonic = hog control, fun, self-defense. I can't ask for much more from a single firearm. Happy shooting.
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Posted: 10/3/2010 3:12:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2010 3:12:47 PM EST by JesseJames]
IMHO this is the round to shoot uber-suppressed out of an virtually stock AR platform. It can shoot a long slender .30 cal slug in the same weight range and velocities as 45 ACP but functions with no non-standard parts other than a barrel. It also operates in a DI setup instead of a super dirty blow-back like most pistol caliber ARs.

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Posted: 10/3/2010 7:52:21 PM EST
The following was posted on Quarterbore from someone claiming to be R&D for AAC:


If you load your own ammo, pay special attention to all of the normal safety practices. Recommended powder for most supersonic loads is Hodgdon H110.

For subsonic, there are special requirements and nearly all published loads are non-optimal for the 300 BLK upper. Many existing loads were developed for Thompson Center® single-shot pistols, or for ARs by people not aware of the magazine limitations. These loads pay no attention to automatic rifle function and should not be used. Look for a load which results in a cyclic rate of 700 rpm or more. AA1680 is recommended because its bulk density matches the case capacity and it will generate enough gas pressure to cycle the weapon.


Suggested subsonic load:

• R-P 300 AAC BLACKOUT brass
• Remington 7.5 primers
• 11.2 grains of AA 1680 powder
• Case length is 1.368 +0.000 -0.020
• Sierra 220 MK loaded to 2.089 OAL (this length is optimal for reliable feeding from USGI magazines)
• Chamber pressure 21,100 psi.

Existing AR magazines have a rib which normally contacts the 5.56mm case-neck. With 300 BLK ammo, the contact is on the bullet. Because the bullet is a larger diameter, the rib will push the cartridges out of alignment, and can lead to binding potentially resulting in Failures to Feed. For this reason, it is important to load ammunition so that the contact point with the magazine rib is on the bullet ogive in an area of about 0.250 inch diameter. Here are some suggested OAL for popular bullets:

• Hornady 110 V-Max, OAL: 2.000
• 110 TSX, 2.015 OAL
• Sierra 155 Palma, 2.150 OAL
• Sierra 220, 2.089 OAL
• Lapua B416 200 grain, 1.960 OAL
• Hornady 150 FMJ-BT 3037, 2.065 OAL
• Nosler Ballistic Tip 125 grain, OAL: 2.085
• Remington AccuTip 125 grain, OAL: 2.085
• Hornady 130 SP #3020, OAL: 2.010
• Sierra H2120 125 ProHunter, OAL: 1.950
• Speer TNT 125 1986, OAL: 2.010



With a case length of 1.348" to 1.368" it sounds exactly like a 300 Whisper / 300-221 / 300 Fireball which has a trim to length of 1.355". I'm assuming since they recommend AA1680 as the subsonic powder that the system uses a carbine length gas tube instead the pistol length. That is unfortunate as the pistol length has proven to be more versatile when switching back and forth between subsonic and supersonic.

As for the magazine problems caused by the bullet diameter that isn't anything new with AR shooters. I've found that a Pmag with the side rib removed is the best solution as opposed to loading ammo to a restrictive length. This also works well with my 7.62x40 which can't rely on overall length as the case is too long to allow such short loading.

Overall, I don't see anything new here. That said, I think it will be good for the cartridge family to have a SAAMI approved chamber and solid factory backing. I'm still waiting to see if the ammo is interchangable between the Blackout and the Whisper. From what I have read I suspect it may be.
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Posted: 10/4/2010 5:58:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2010 5:59:31 AM EST by Bretshooter]
Altair,
Do you have a method for removing that rib from inside the Pmag body? A 1/4" wood chisel is what I am considering.
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