No.  I have a million things going on and haven't been out since that post.

Well I have about 95% of my 25/223AR...

Made about 15 cases...



Loaded a couple dummy rounds to check out the ASC mags SCPossum1 mentioned /  recommended

Both the Nosler .257 100g Ballistic Tip SBT P/N 25100 & Privi-Partizan .257 100gr PSP part # PPB257PSP fit the mag seated to 2.30" ( 55gr FMJ .223 in middle for reference)



Just waiting on a barrel & handguard

where can i find more info on this 25-223 AR Spec II chamber.  is that in this thread?  i havent been able to find it.

IM 320 PF.

Tested a couple loads today. No accuracy testing. Just looking for pressure signs and chronographing velocities. There were no surprises of any kind except issues with feeding from mags but more on that later.
The 748 powder loads were disappointing in how much the velocity varied from shot to shot. H4198 is my sweetheart performer for powders today.

LOAD#
Avg velocity / load data.........All loads using new Lapua cases....20" barrel

1. 2721 / 75gr poly tipped Midway blems (Hornady?), 26.5gr Win 748, Fed Match primer
2. 2650 / 100gr Sierra SP spitzer, 22.5gr H4198, Wolf Mag primer
3. 2600 / 75gr poly tipped Midway blem, 25.5gr Win 748, CCI Mag primer
4. 2640 / 100gr Hornady soft pt flat base, 22.5gr H4198, Wolf Mag primer
5. 2677 / 75gr poly tip Midway blem, 25.5gr Win 748, Fed Match primer
6. 2828 / 90gr Sierra BTHP, 23.2gr H4198, Wolf Mag primer
7. 2600 / 75gr Sierra HP flat base, 25.5gr Win 748, CCI Mag primer
8. 2808 / 75gr poly tip Midway blem, 27.5gr Win 748, Fed Match primer

Its interesting to see the velocity difference between primers in loads 3 and 5.
2600 - CCI Mag
2677 - Fed Match
2721
2808

The mag feed issue. Every round was not being chambered fully and had to be extracted. However, if single loaded and bolt dropped they all chambered fine with no assistance needed. Was using 3 different mags...Pmag, old Thermold and a metal Brownells. Same problem with all three. I got to looking at how the cartridges feed out of the mag and the edge of the neck was catching on the magazine's edge. The obvious conclusion was the dragging was really slowing down the bolt's speed. My thought is if I lowered that edge the problem should go away.

Tomorrow is supposed to be even nicer than today, so I plan on heading out again. There aren't many nice days left this late in the year.

I found out how 1 grain too much can make a difference. When I first started this cartridge I was doing 1 grain jumps which worked until it didn't work.

Hi nootay,

The only difference between the "Spec II" chamber and the standard chamber is that the lead/freebore is extended by 0.077".  This allows bullets like the Sierra 90 g GK to be seated out to 2.26" (2.30" with some mags) with out running into the lands. This give you more room for powder in the case thus increases velocities by ~100 fps.

This was only the second hunting trip this year due to my back being out in August and September. My 10 year old shot a nice doe with the 25/223 @150 yds.  Dropped her in her tracks. Excellent performance out of the 100gr hornady.



She's the log in the road with a whte tip. Sorry about e pic. Forgot to take another when we got back to the house. Not sure how many this makes with the 25, but it sure smokes them.

Hi SCPossum,

Can you share some of the details?  Was the deer quartering away, towards, or broadside; did the bullet exit etc...?

Modified several brands of magazines until the .25 cartridges slid out with little effort. So I thought I was GTG. However feeding issues plagued me and I believe the angle coming out of the mag is partially responsible. Ended up swapping complete bolt carrier from another rifle and that helped along with a modified Lancer 20 rd mag.

It operated perfectly with the Sierra 90gr HP load. (2828 fps / 90gr Sierra BTHP, 23.2gr H4198, Wolf Mag primer). Did my first real target shooting for accuracy testing and was very pleasantly surprised. The 90gr Sierra plunked into less than 1" groups. The blem poly tips didn't do too bad either at 1.25". The poly tips had two things going against them, their blem issues and the Win 748 powder (velocities) which was nowhere as consistent as H4198.

Sighted and ready to go.

Are you sizing your cases down far enough where the die cams over the shell holder? The bottom of the die should come in contact with the shell holder then have a slight pop feel when the ram is fully lowered.

You shouldn't have to be modifying magazines, I have used pretty much every mag on the market over the years and haven't needed to ( other than trying to get longer length) I think what is happening is your case is not sized enough (do you have a case gauge?) so when the rifle is trying to feed from the magazine then squeeze the round in the chamber it won't lock up fully. But when you drop the round in the chamber and let the bolt fly there is enough momentum to force the round in. I have seen this before where the case head is just a tiny bit oversized.  That is why some companies recommend "small base dies" for semi autos, like RCBS. But I have found those are unnecessary if the die set up correctly.  

Are the rounds the don't allow the bolt to close difficult to extract? If so, the sizing issue is your problem.

I think case sizing is the issue. These cases were on their first firing after being formed and some shoulders have a little second "shoulder". Here's the head scratcher for me. All the cases were made up around the same time, same method (several years ago). The ones that'd stop the bolt short of lockup were tough to eject (forward asst is worthless IMO). But would not create any problems if single fed (not from the mags). Some (not all) of the stuck rounds exhibited a swelled out shoulder. Whether it happened during the feeding or during their making, I can't say for sure. I doubt during their making as then the majority should exhibit this from the box.

The bolt carrier group I was using was a new brand and I noticed it had a little catch right at the point where the bolt starts to cam over. This is about where it would get stuck when chambering a round. When I switched out the BC, mag and load everything worked good. So I'm thinking BC is primary issue plus it was so dry it was like the parts rubbing against sandpaper.

I ran out of daylight to further identify issues and solutions. Main thing is I have a combo that'll work and its sighted in with a deer slayer, just in case I need it for a reduction season.

I really like this cartridge. I'd really like to pitch it to a major ammo maker but I not sure how to go about it.

ETA: When I resize the fired cases I'll make sure of the cam-over. Usually I run the press just firmly touching the bottom of the die with only rarely needing to cam over. My next step would be to load these once-fired now resized cases. If all works well then mystery firmly solved.

With the rounds that got stuck being difficult to eject and the FA doing nothing (only making it worse I bet) I will bet case sizing is your issue. Been there done that. See if you can get a case guage from 320 PF, once you get one I bet your current cases will stick out the back just a tad.

What dies are you using?  Also, double check your case length, make sure you are 1.70 or less by .01. You should be sizing 223 to 25 then trimming to length.

I finally got to shoot my 20 inch 25-223 this past weekend.  Thought id share some load results.  althought these worked fine in my gun, they may not in yours.  I didnt have access to a chronograph at the time, however should have access to one this coming weekend.  None of the below loads showed pressure signs.  all were 5 shot groups at 100 yards with lc 08 brass, wolf magnum primers, and seated to 2.260.  

24.0 grains reloader 10x, 100 grain speer btsp - 1.534 group
24.5 grains reloader 10x, 100 grain speer btsp - .961 group

24.5 grain reloader 10x, 90 grain sierra game king hp - 3.072 group
25.0 grains reloader 10x, 90 grain sierra game king hp - 1.755 group

22.0 grains imr 4198, 90 grain sierra game king hp - 2.499 group
22.5 grains imr 4198, 90 grain sierra game king hp - 2.030 group

22.6 grains reloader 10x, 117 grain hornady SP - 1.217
22.0 grains reloader 10x, 117 grain hornady sp - 1.936

22.5 grains imr 4198, 80 grain barnes ttsx - .854 group
23.0 grains imr 4198, 80 grain barnes ttsx - .918 group


i plan on stepping up all of these loads and working with a chronograph this weekend.  i may also try some imr 4198 loads with the 117 grain hornady.  i currently have a stock mil spec trigger.  i feel like a new trigger would do a lot for these groups.  i also just got an asc mag in the mail and will test out some 2.30 COAL loads.

Yep I'm pretty sure the FA made things worse. I made these cases up a couple years ago and I really don't recall exactly how I did. Suspect I trimmed first then expanded to .243 then to .257. One thought that I had was neck thickness.

Before getting too worried I'm cleaning the fired brass then run it through my Hornady custom dies. From there I'll double check length. Thanks for the tip on the case gage because I was thinking one would be very handy.

so ive seated a few different bullets out to 2.3 in some dummy loads and am trying to figure out how to see if they are touching the lands.  i put marker on the bullets and do have some type of mark on the bullet, but am not sure if its from ejecting the round of if its indeed touching the lands.  Can any of you tell from the picture?  Have another way of checking without any fancy tools?

Grabbed a handful of the poly tip loads which seemed to be the worst troublemakers. Loaded them up in a unmodified 2gen Pmag 20 rdr and hand cycled them. Half jammed inside the chamber and required a two fisted extraction.

Pulled the decapping stem from my Hornady die and ran the batch through it. Made sure it cammed over. Hand cycled them through and SHAZAM!! They went through easy as a red hot knife thru soft butter. Pulling them out was like there was no cartridge attached to the bolt.

Think I'm floating on air right now. Thanks chewie for your help.

Hi nootay,

Make up a dummy round WITHOUT A PRIMER) with the bullet seated way out (mic.measure and note the overall length of the cartridge) color it up with a marker like you did and chamber it. If you started with it seated out far enough it, the bolt will not got into battery (close). Carefully extract the case. You should see marks on the bullet ogive. Seat  test cartridge about 0.010" deeper and repeat. At some point the bolt will go into battery when the bullet is just touching or just clears the lands.

Another way is to again start with a long seated dummy round (color the tip), chamber the rounds and use the forward assist to close the bolt into battery. Then to extract the round use a cleaning rod and gently tip the bullet while you gently pull the bolt back. If you do this right the case length that you measure will be the length where the bullet is just touching the lands.

I hope this helps.

320pf

Awesome.  No problem.  If I hadn't experienced the problem myself it would be a tricky one to diagnose.

Sorry, just saw the post. Sorry about lack of pics. Deer was broadside at 150 yds.  He had to shoot quickly and caught the upper shoulder region clipping both lungs and breaking the backbone. Bullet exited. I am not sure if we have ever found a bullet yet. I will have to check on that. The wound channel was the same as we have experienced in the past with a 3.5" to 4" disruption (estimate from visual observation) in the middle of the deer and exiting with a quarter sized exit hole.  Inside 200yds there is no doubt that the gun is capable of dropping deer size game constantly.  I plan on hunting a stand this weekend with 250-300 yd shots possible and will report back on what happens. With the ballistics of this round, I am sure there will be a positive result. Last year we held the distance until we got a feel for what the bullet would do. Now I feel more confident in stretching it out some.  It is a consistently producing results.

so im having some short stroking issues.  i thought my loads might just be on the weak side, but some of the loads i shot today were showing ejector swipes.  I have a slr adjustable gas block which is wide open.  I have double checked the gas block placement and it is correct.  My gas port was drilled with a 3/32 drill bit.  the tube is pinned well and fits in the gas key well.  i do have some carbon buildup  around the adjustment screw.  is this normal?  this is my first adjustable gas block.  any other suggestions to look over?

What powder are you using and what gas system do you have?  

Powders - IMR 4198, Reloader 10x
Barrel size - 20 inch
Gas port size - .096
Gas tube - rifle length
Gas block - SLR adjustable
bullet size - 80, 90, 100, 117 grain

Im going to be shooting with a different BCG tomorrow.  if i blow on the gas key of the current BCG, i hear more air compared to the BCG on my 5.56 gun.  
i have fiddled with the gas block quite a bit and feel its definitely in the right position.  ive taken the gas tube off and its clear, gas block is clear, and gas tube is clear.  if the other BCG doesnt resolve the issue, i feel like my next step is to open the gas port a bit more.  

Ive read about some people having a hard time with short stroking on the 6.8 in a rifle length 20 inch barrel.  From reading through this thread, it seems quite a few people are running 20 inch rifle length systems.  What size is your gas port?  

I left off one detail, it seems to cycle more reliably (still not 100%) if i shoot it about 10 times in a row.  that makes me think i have a leak somewhere and the heat is expanding something somewhere to seal the gap.  there isnt any carbon buildup around the gas block, so this makes me thing the gas key on the bcg.

I had a feeling it was 4198.  I shoulve put that in my last post.  That short stroked my rifle.  Seems the burn rate isn't ideal for a rifle gas system.

I actually had to drill out gas port anyway on this cal, so you may to as well.  Its not a big deal at all and I can walk you through it.

H335 has been a go to powder for me if you can find some now, id give it a shot. There is a lot of data in this thread. its hard to wade through i went through a very long process to get my 16" barrel to run(gas port was very small) final thing was to drill it out but i went through all the other things to get it right first. Really just for shits and giggles though.

what size did you end up drilling to?  i was planning on drilling  to .104

Has anyone tried Alliant PowerPro 1200R yet?

I did some informal pressure tests today for my 25-45 Sharps, using various combinations of A2200, H335, and PP1200R using Hornady 87gr Spire Point and Speer 100gr Hot-Cor and shooting over a Beta Chrony. The velocity from the PP1200R impressed me, so I will be doing a full OCW test of both bullet types with PP1200R next time out, probably testing 25.5gr - 26.0gr in 0.1gr increments.

I must say I'm also impressed by the Sharps 20" barrel. Bullets were landing so close to the point of aim, so consistently, that I expect groups to be well under 1 MOA. Less than half MOA groups wouldn't surprise me. No complaints about accuracy here.

If these speeds prove out under longer group tests, this project might be a success after all.

these have been my hottest loads so far.  starting to get flattened primers and this one had a dark ring around it.  should i consider this my max with this powder?  24.8 RL 10x under 100 grain speer BTSP.

http://i.imgur.com/AjjL8v4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WE3hqgh.jpg

the primer didnt look too flattened one taken out.  you should be able to click and zoom in on these images

The primer in your picture appears to be normal. There's no unusual flattening or cratering of the firing pin strike. The dark ring around it is unlikely to be blow-bye unless the primer is a loose fit in the pocket. If the primer were loose, the flattening would be greater.The case rim looks normal too.

As always, just my opinion based on what I see. A closer look at multiple fired cases would be a better indicator of how hot your load is.

FYI:  Sportsman's warehouse in Columbia, SC has about 10 1lb cannisters of 2200 and about 6 cans of H335 @ 5:30pm EST.

I have no clue it is somewhere in this thread ill see if i can find it it was a # drill bit though.

Seems this is the range i settled in from reading back through the thread

.082" to .086"

I received the short barrels from Brent and now have two .25-223 pistols (with Sig Tac Braces) put together.  Now I just need time to load some ammo and shoot them to report on the short barrel performance of this cartridge.

very nice man!  have you gotten to shoot them yet?

Not yet.  

I work about 45-50 hours a week at my day job and I just recently purchased a gun store and indoor range, which takes about 20 hours a week.  I also have two small children so my free time has been extremely limited lately.  I haven't even gotten any ammo loaded for them yet.  

Hopefully in the next week or two I can squeeze a few free hours out to get some ammo loaded and chronographed.  I'm very interested to see how much difference I get with the same load in these vs my 16" rifles.

Cool, thats what i am curious about the velocity of the loads.

On a side note i got me a new bullet to try in the 25ar, Lehigh defense 85gr cotrolled chaos
bullets

According to LD i can use my current data for the nosler 85grBT, ill drop a 1gr and rework up and see what i can get.

So, did Sharps basically copy what you did here or are you working with them or?  (Sharps 25-45)?

I haven't read back in the thread to see if you guys are working together.

I am not in the know, this is based only on what I've read in this thread, but I've been following the cartridge for some time now and I don't believe either is the case.

320pf developed this idea and put it forth here on arfcom before the .25-45 Sharps came about.  I believe Sharps arrived at the same idea independently, which is why it was done a little differently.  I don't think they copied anything, nor were they working with 320pf, based on all the information I've come across.  

The main difference between the two is that the .25-45 uses a full length case, where the .25-223 uses a shortened neck.  This means the .25-45 cannot use some of the longer bullets that the .25-223 uses well, like the 100gr Game Kings as an example.

Got it and agreed on bullet length issue.  Reason I asked is because as soon as I saw the Sharps announcement, the first thing that came to mind was the work done here.

How much do you trim the neck back with the .25-223?

The YouTube video I saw on the Sharps makes claims that it's just a barrel swap, but I don't see how that is the case as you described - they are going to have a hard time loading any of the longer bullets and I'm not sure the Re will not be magazine binding issues.

Thought I would ask. I can imagine it is not necessarily welcomed news that a slight deviation from all of this team's work is being promoted as a new concept without any recognition.

What I mean to say is I think you guys did a good job here.

I really don't think Sharps was aware of the .25-223 when it first announced intentions for the .25-45 Sharps.  I could be mistaken, of course, but the concept is a simple one and I doubt 320pf was the first to neck a .223 up to .257".  I suspect it has been done, with slight variations, numerous times over the years.  I think 320pf and Sharps just arrived at a similar spot close in time to one another.

The .25-223 is trimmed back approximately 2mm shorter than .223 or .25-45 Sharps.  I don't recall the exact dimension and I don't have my data in front of me but that 2mm makes a big difference in bullet length that is usable in the case with the AR mag length restriction.

The .25-223 and .25-45 Sharps should have the same case profile and shoulder, so both should work fine in a standard magazine and require only a barrel swap.  I can personally vouch for the .25-223 and say that only a barrel swap is needed.  The .257" bullet doesn't expand the case enough to cause interference issues with the ribs in the standard .223 magazines I've tried.

I have found the .25-223 to be an exceptionally easy wildcat to make brass for and load.  It is this reason that I now have four ARs chambered in it and plan to use the .25-223 to cut my children's teeth on wildcatting when the time is right.  With only minor trimming and no fire forming it is barely any different than just reloading .223 ammo.   It is easy to do and you get substantial performance gains over .223/5.56 with very little effort.  

With 75-87gr light constructed bullets it is perfect for coyote and with 100gr bullets (or 80gr TTSX) it is great for deer.  Both of these animals are plentiful in my area so it is my intent to use the .25-223 to teach my children to hunt as well.  I had to build .25-223 pistols to meet my state legal requirements for deer, which I just got put together (see a few posts up) and I hope to have some load data for the short 12.5" barrels soon.  

As an aside I took a hard look at your .277 Wolverine when pondering what short barrels to use on my AR pistols.  It just so happened that 320pf had a couple short blanks left over and he made me a deal on the pair of barrels I just couldn't refuse.  That and sticking to a single caliber makes things simpler for logistical reasons for when I want to get my kids involved.

I like what you guys have done, and thanks for the explanation.  Carry on with the good work and as always, have fun and pass it on as you say...

Evening, all,
I dropped out about page 56 due to health, family, financial and chore problems, but i'm back with some info on the 25-25 Sharps.
First of the month I lucked out at a gun show and sold three safe queens that had not been out for about 30 years, so I had some cash
in hand when I passed the last table at the exit.  There were three Sabre Defence complete lowers, all calling to me. These are the Cav.
Arms type, and are really light.  I found myself carrying one to the truck.  Hey, at $100 each, how can you not buy?
Then I ran across some info on the Sharps company that mentioned really cheap barrels, and I visited the website.  Long story short, I now
have an 18" barrel, and have already ordered all the necessary parts to put togeather my first AR15.

Here's what I wanted to pass on about the barrel.

18" H-Bar, listed at 2.55 pounds.
Gas port measures 0.90-0.91" dia., mid-length position
Stainless steel, with a good smooth finish
Barrel is marked, just behind the threaded end, "Sharps Rifle Co., 25-45 Sharps, SS"
What I almost missed is the very light stamped info next to the barrel extension, which reads "BHW MP 1410"

A quick peep down the tube shows the rifling to definately NOT be your usual cut lands and grooves.

I also bought the RCBS three die set.  The special die for opening the case necks works just fine.  I lubed about every fourth case neck with
a trace of Imperial wax lub and all was well.  I am not going to load anything until I get the rifle put togeather.

If you drop back and reread my earlier notes (please don't) you will see that this setup is not what I described as my ideal.  Oh, well, at least I
will have a 25  caliber AR15, and it's close to the 25-223.

They seem to have used barrels/blanks made by BHW that utilize 416R SS Polygonal 3 groove rifling...The barrels themselves are of very good
quality, I would agree that the 25-45 Sharps round would limit itself to the lightest and/or shortest pills in the said caliber...

It's not quite that bad. ;-) The 100gr HotCor has been working just fine so far. Depending on the ogive, many bullets in the 85-100 gr range should work.

Hi everyone,  first post.  Not sure how many years I have been reading arfcom.   Well congrats because this thread has finally pushed me to register.   I think I have read all 80 pages of this thread.  

I'm so itching to get into this 25-223 club.   Happy Thanksgiving!

Hi Baconriver72,

Welcome and Happy Thanksgiving!

320pf

I'm confident you'll find this is one very fine cartridge. Personally I think the M16 should have been chambered for it. I've had interesting times tinkering with powders and bullets.

I've spent the last few years playing with load development for my 300 BLK.  Good fun.

The bullet weight vs. velocity vs. BC vs. platform equation for the 25-223 is very interesting to me.   It appears to sit in a functional sweet spot.  Ha!  I know we all have our own definition of that.  

How do I go about acquiring a barrel and dies?   Good to be here.

If this has been answered before  I apologize,  on CH4D website there are 3 different 25-223 dies; 25-223Rem, 25-223Remimp30, and 25-223Remimp40. Which is recommended for the barrels that are being used here in this thread?

You don't need the CH4D dies.

For sizing you can use the Redding type S bushing full length sizing die 77323 & replace the 223 sizing button with the 25 cal sizing button part # 19256.

For seating, Any 223 seating die will work as long as you have enough adjustment...