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Posted: 10/5/2009 6:35:53 PM EDT
Stumbled upon one of the much talked about .30 RAR rifles a few days ago, so I figured I would take a look.  While it MAY APPEAR to be an AR15, I can assure you it is NOT an AR15.  The magazine looks like a DPMS LR magazine cut off at the front rib (the follower is certainly something like that) and the magazine well is subsequently MUCH wider than that of the AR-15.  I didn't have a .223 (or 6.8) magazine handy to try and insert, but without some type of adapter that lower will NOT function with either of those two calibers (or some custom magazine).

So while I will admit that the platform opens up tremendous opportunities, I wish the astute gun magazine writers community would please do the shooting community a favor and make it clear that it is NOT as standard AR-15 and will not work with standard magazines...

Now, why Remington went with .30 cal???  I mean, a round like that seems to scream 6.5 or 7mm.... not .30...  an ueber-fat 6.5BR-ish round would have settled many a debate
Link Posted: 10/5/2009 6:47:18 PM EDT
[#1]
Yes, it seems like if Remington was really interested in enhancing the AR platform they would have put more support and thought behind the 6.8 SPC in the beginning... which after all was their baby...which they botched with the sub-par original spec chambering and now matching underpowered Remington factory ammo in 6.8.  Only when others came along and spruced it up with improved chamber specs (Spec II and DMR) and hotter ammo did it become the cartridge/rifle combination that it is today which is loved by so many.  Some of the things these big firearms companies do (and don't do) baffles me....

By the way Marty...when I was going to get a different upper for my AR for hog hunting...I first went with a Stag 6.8...then sold it and "upgraded" to a 458 SOCOM upper....no looking back...I LOVE IT!  Great job!
Link Posted: 10/5/2009 6:53:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Marty,

Could it be that Remington has not shaken completely the chains of Fuddiness?  You know, the 30-30, the 308 the '06, the Win Mag.  Perhaps in their marketing department they figured that there is a big segment of the shooting world that just cannot get past a 30 caliber bullet.  Besides, you know that 6.5 diameter bullet is only desired by those twinkies over in europe who like to hunt with cross country skis, and like their rifles with way to much forend wood

Craig
Link Posted: 10/5/2009 7:09:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Marty,

Could it be that Remington has not shaken completely the chains of Fuddiness?  You know, the 30-30, the 308 the '06, the Win Mag.  Perhaps in their marketing department they figured that there is a big segment of the shooting world that just cannot get past a 30 caliber bullet.  Besides, you know that 6.5 diameter bullet is only desired by those twinkies over in europe who like to hunt with cross country skis, and like their rifles with way to much forend wood

Craig


I don't like Schnabel fore-ends but back in the day I was killer in Langlauf...  need to dust off the telemark skills, hope to hit the powder next spring first time in a decade... seems not too much skiing in TX...

Sticking with the .30 cal - in light of the whole "let's ram .308 down NATO's throat" seems like the epitome of not having read one's history books.

I picture a meeting room full of bright young souls, having a debate (with Roger's Rules), taking turns using the latest HR-inspired team building and "outside the box" techniques.  Then some bright accountant brings up that they have lots of .30 cal bullets in stock and that it would make sense to use those, regardless of what would make a better cartridge.  And some old machinist sitting in the corner, weathered hands and face from having spent years hunting all over the US, clenching his teeth and his coffee cup as he lowers his head while shaking it and muttering "...fools..."
Link Posted: 10/5/2009 7:17:21 PM EDT
[#4]
My devious mind wants to know, will a standard upper fit on the .30AR lower?    Of course I'm mainly interested in shoving greasegun mags in there as well as any other configuration my twisted thoughts can come up with.   Maybe a 10/22 magazine?    I'm sure there's a few oddball calibers/mags that this would work nicely for if it will mate up with a regular upper.
Link Posted: 10/5/2009 7:27:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Marty,

Could it be that Remington has not shaken completely the chains of Fuddiness?  You know, the 30-30, the 308 the '06, the Win Mag.  Perhaps in their marketing department they figured that there is a big segment of the shooting world that just cannot get past a 30 caliber bullet.  Besides, you know that 6.5 diameter bullet is only desired by those twinkies over in europe who like to hunt with cross country skis, and like their rifles with way to much forend wood

Craig


I don't like Schnabel fore-ends but back in the day I was killer in Langlauf...  need to dust off the telemark skills, hope to hit the powder next spring first time in a decade... seems not too much skiing in TX...

Sticking with the .30 cal - in light of the whole "let's ram .308 down NATO's throat" seems like the epitome of not having read one's history books.

I picture a meeting room full of bright young souls, having a debate (with Roger's Rules), taking turns using the latest HR-inspired team building and "outside the box" techniques.  Then some bright accountant brings up that they have lots of .30 cal bullets in stock and that it would make sense to use those, regardless of what would make a better cartridge.  And some old machinist sitting in the corner, weathered hands and face from having spent years hunting all over the US, clenching his teeth and his coffee cup as he lowers his head while shaking it and muttering "...fools..."


And this makes things great for small firearm/ammo companies.  They take the the shortcomings of the big corps and push the limits of firearm design.

Marty.  Keep your eyes peeled for a company called Cobras Customs.  We do a lot of Saiga and AK work right now, but since I teamed up with the owner we are expanding into AR's and general gunsmithing.

I'd like team up with you on some ideas if your interested, once I'm back from deployment and situated in the next couple months.
Link Posted: 10/5/2009 7:31:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Now, why Remington went with .30 cal???

Marketing for fudds.

As an aside the larger magwell might open up some interesting possibilities (.45acp mags for example) if the receivers would become available.
Link Posted: 10/5/2009 8:12:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Marty,

Could it be that Remington has not shaken completely the chains of Fuddiness?  .....ww.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_smartass.gif[/img]

Craig


I don't like Schnabel fore-ends but back in the day I was killer in Langlauf...  need to dust off the telemark skills, hope to hit the powder next spring first time in a decade... seems not too much skiing in TX...

Sticking with the .30 cal - in light of the whole "let's ram .308 down NATO's throat" seems like the epitome of not having read one's history books.

I picture a meeting room full of bright young souls, having a debate (with Roger's Rules), taking turns using the latest HR-inspired team building and "outside the box" techniques.  Then some bright accountant brings up that they have lots of .30 cal bullets in stock and that it would make sense to use those, regardless of what would make a better cartridge.  And some old machinist sitting in the corner, weathered hands and face from having spent years hunting all over the US, clenching his teeth and his coffee cup as he lowers his head while shaking it and muttering "...fools..."


Marty,

I don't think anyone in the mfg. world is pondering military usefulness these days.  I am sure that there are still marketing folks with the Big Green who feel that they were "burned" by the Military.  Perhaps I am mistaken, and there is more happening behind the scenes, but methinks that the Civilian market is where these folks think that they need to be.

And, where the heck have you been.  Don't you know that a large percentage of the Texas population visits my little neck of the woods to try and wrap themselves around trees during the winter.  Come on up, and I will help hook you up with some lodging, some snow covered barbequeing, and a good chiropractor.

Craig

Link Posted: 10/6/2009 5:21:56 AM EDT
[#8]
I expect it went something like this:

Boss: "Hey Research department, what's the best selling bullet size?"

Research:   "30 cal"

Boss "make it so"

We dont need no stinking metric system.    I guess we should be glad its not a 338?

In any group of new cartridges, 30 has to be first.   THEN maybe something interesting:

EG:  300WSM, 300SAUM, 300RCM, 300 olympic wssm
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 10:58:22 AM EDT
[#9]
I finally looked this caliber up...  Am I missing something here?  Got these figures from Remington's website.
                                                                 MV
30 Remington AR PRA30RAR1 125 AccuTip 2278 1440 2.0 0 -25.8
30 Remington AR P30RAR1 125 Core-Lokt® 2154 1288 2.1 0 -29.4
30 Remington AR L30RAR1 123 MC UMC 2152 1264 2.1 0 -29.5

Really does not seem that great to me.  Looking at the 7.62x39 it looks like the ballistics are pretty close.
I'll keep my 6.8x43mm.  I really think they should have necked this cartridge down.  Or just done the 6.8 right!
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 11:07:03 AM EDT
[#10]
There's a lot of press and such being put out about the 30 RAR, how it almost matches the .308 in an AR-15 sized carbine, and how it would make a great cartridge.  However, I've been reloading now for about 20 years.  I'm currently developing a load for my 6.8.  I've looked at and loaded 130gr bullets and quite frankly they're a little too long to fit in the C-Prod mags.  Even loaded out to 2.300" I'm not getting any real performance without pressure signs.  Looking at overall length, that neck would have to be really long or the cartridge really short and fat like the 300 OSSM to work with anything like a 150gr bullet, much less the 165gr and heavier.  It's nice having a 0.308" diameter bullet in this platform, but the 7.62x39 is already there and it works.  

Jim
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 11:10:21 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Stumbled upon one of the much talked about .30 RAR rifles a few days ago, so I figured I would take a look.  While it MAY APPEAR to be an AR15, I can assure you it is NOT an AR15.  The magazine looks like a DPMS LR magazine cut off at the front rib (the follower is certainly something like that) and the magazine well is subsequently MUCH wider than that of the AR-15.  I didn't have a .223 (or 6.8) magazine handy to try and insert, but without some type of adapter that lower will NOT function with either of those two calibers (or some custom magazine).

So while I will admit that the platform opens up tremendous opportunities, I wish the astute gun magazine writers community would please do the shooting community a favor and make it clear that it is NOT as standard AR-15 and will not work with standard magazines...

Now, why Remington went with .30 cal???  I mean, a round like that seems to scream 6.5 or 7mm.... not .30...  an ueber-fat 6.5BR-ish round would have settled many a debate


stop you are a very evil man!
Now i have to wonder about this for years to come
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 11:33:39 AM EDT
[#12]
.30 RAR will be DOA.
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 11:35:50 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
I expect it went something like this:

Boss: "Hey Research department, what's the best selling bullet size?"

Research:   "30 cal"

Boss "make it so"

We dont need no stinking metric system.    I guess we should be glad its not a 338?

In any group of new cartridges, 30 has to be first.   THEN maybe something interesting:

EG:  300WSM, 300SAUM, 300RCM, 300 olympic wssm


The .30 WSSM chambering from Olympic came out many years after the 223, 243, and 25 WSSM chamberings.  In fact I believe the reason for this is that due to some kind of copyright law they had to wait 7 years for Winchester to decide weather they would do a .30 WSSM cartridge.

I also have to say that this .30 AR cartridge sounds like a real turd.  The .30 HRT sounds like it is nearly identical ballistically and it uses standard AR parts and available high cap 6.8 SPC mags.  The Olympic offering sounds like it is far better for a non-standard AR hot rod.  I predict this new .30 AR will be a collectors item within a few years followed closely by the 450 Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 11:43:22 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:

I also have to say that this .30 AR cartridge sounds like a real turd.  The .30 HRT sounds like it is nearly identical ballistically and it uses standard AR parts and available high cap 6.8 SPC mags.  The Olympic offering sounds like it is far better for a non-standard AR hot rod.  I predict this new .30 AR will be a collectors item within a few years followed closely by the 450 Bushmaster.


I agree.  The new 300 OSSM looks to be far superior to the 30 RAR.  We will see if the OSSM takes off or not, but I would be surprised if the RAR amounts to anything.
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 12:20:58 PM EDT
[#15]
30 remington= fail IMO
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 1:00:19 PM EDT
[#16]
Derek, thanks for posting the numbers.  Not only does this new offering come NOWHERE close to a 308 ballistically, it even lags behind the 30-30.  I did not compare barrel lengths to see if the numbers that I looked at could be massaged a bit, but even with massaging the only comparison to the 308 is the bullet diameter.  That and perhaps they use the same size primer.

I actually look forward to some written reviews.  I would love to see how a gun writer could spin this one.  Years ago I tried to talk Marty into a 30 caliber something for the AR15 platform, and he gave me the big nah.  At least with the 6x45 he built for me when the 6.8 and 6.5 folks hammer me on ballistics I can at least fall back on brass, bolt and mags.  I generally like to support anything AR that the makers are willing to put out, but this new offering is really a dog.  No doubt that this cartridge will be able to kill things, you can look to the 30-30 Contender to see what it is capable of doing.  Still..............

Craig
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 2:30:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Derek, thanks for posting the numbers.  Not only does this new offering come NOWHERE close to a 308 ballistically, it even lags behind the 30-30.  I did not compare barrel lengths to see if the numbers that I looked at could be massaged a bit, but even with massaging the only comparison to the 308 is the bullet diameter.  That and perhaps they use the same size primer.

I actually look forward to some written reviews.  I would love to see how a gun writer could spin this one.  Years ago I tried to talk Marty into a 30 caliber something for the AR15 platform, and he gave me the big nah.  At least with the 6x45 he built for me when the 6.8 and 6.5 folks hammer me on ballistics I can at least fall back on brass, bolt and mags.  I generally like to support anything AR that the makers are willing to put out, but this new offering is really a dog.  No doubt that this cartridge will be able to kill things, you can look to the 30-30 Contender to see what it is capable of doing.  Still..............

Craig


...and to top that all off, I'm nearly positive those are quotes from a 22" barrel to boot.  Talk about a big fat steaming pile of _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank)!

The 762x39 is superior to this cartridge, especially when using a 20" barrel...
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 2:39:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Derek, thanks for posting the numbers.  Not only does this new offering come NOWHERE close to a 308 ballistically, it even lags behind the 30-30.  I did not compare barrel lengths to see if the numbers that I looked at could be massaged a bit, but even with massaging the only comparison to the 308 is the bullet diameter.  That and perhaps they use the same size primer.

I actually look forward to some written reviews.  I would love to see how a gun writer could spin this one.  Years ago I tried to talk Marty into a 30 caliber something for the AR15 platform, and he gave me the big nah.  At least with the 6x45 he built for me when the 6.8 and 6.5 folks hammer me on ballistics I can at least fall back on brass, bolt and mags.  I generally like to support anything AR that the makers are willing to put out, but this new offering is really a dog.  No doubt that this cartridge will be able to kill things, you can look to the 30-30 Contender to see what it is capable of doing.  Still..............

Craig


...and to top that all off, I'm nearly positive those are quotes from a 22" barrel to boot.  Talk about a big fat steaming pile of _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank)!

The 762x39 is superior to this cartridge, especially when using a 20" barrel...


How many times are we going to point out that the numbers quoted are a misprint and are in fact ENERGY figures. I'm beginning to question fellas such as your self's motives.. I mean come on if this hillbilly welder from arkansas can figure this surely someone such as yourself who'se elbow deep in the industry can.........Unless you're choosing not to because it steals a however small amount of thunder form your pet 6.x round.


Shooting Times chronographed the 125grn factory 30RAR load at just shy of 2800 FPS

At Dr. Oehler's range, the .30 RAR's similarities to a PPC cartridge proved to be more than looks alone. Right out of the gate, the R-15 shot a one-hole, five-shot group with the MC. Average group size was easily under an inch, as indicated in the chart. The Core-Lokt opened up a bit, but it squeaked in at 0.04 under an inch. Average muzzle velocities for 10-round strings from the 22-inch barrel were 2,721 fps for the MC and 2,770 fps for the Core-Lokt, slightly down from the advertised 24-inch-barrel numbers of 2,800 fps. Recoil was negligible, and even at 22X, the crosshairs didn't move much on the paper.


http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/ST_r15andthe30rar_200905/index2.html

Link Posted: 10/6/2009 3:13:30 PM EDT
[#19]
Marty, any chance of a .308, .338, or .375 variant based on the .458 SOCOM's brass coming down the pipe in the future?????  Now that would be good news!!!!
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 4:11:00 PM EDT
[#20]
hmmmm...what if you necked .30 Remington down to 7mm, or 6.8mm or even 6.5mm?
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 4:20:09 PM EDT
[#21]
midway shows it at 2,800fps





and 2,278fps





Remington site shows the lower numbers, energy numbers crunch out to muzzle energy not energy at 200yds




Link Posted: 10/6/2009 4:27:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Derek, thanks for posting the numbers.  Not only does this new offering come NOWHERE close to a 308 ballistically, it even lags behind the 30-30.  I did not compare barrel lengths to see if the numbers that I looked at could be massaged a bit, but even with massaging the only comparison to the 308 is the bullet diameter.  That and perhaps they use the same size primer.

I actually look forward to some written reviews.  I would love to see how a gun writer could spin this one.  Years ago I tried to talk Marty into a 30 caliber something for the AR15 platform, and he gave me the big nah.  At least with the 6x45 he built for me when the 6.8 and 6.5 folks hammer me on ballistics I can at least fall back on brass, bolt and mags.  I generally like to support anything AR that the makers are willing to put out, but this new offering is really a dog.  No doubt that this cartridge will be able to kill things, you can look to the 30-30 Contender to see what it is capable of doing.  Still..............

Craig


...and to top that all off, I'm nearly positive those are quotes from a 22" barrel to boot.  Talk about a big fat steaming pile of _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank)!

The 762x39 is superior to this cartridge, especially when using a 20" barrel...


How many times are we going to point out that the numbers quoted are a misprint and are in fact ENERGY figures. I'm beginning to question fellas such as your self's motives.. I mean come on if this hillbilly welder from arkansas can figure this surely someone such as yourself who'se elbow deep in the industry can.........Unless you're choosing not to because it steals a however small amount of thunder form your pet 6.x round.


Shooting Times chronographed the 125grn factory 30RAR load at just shy of 2800 FPS

At Dr. Oehler's range, the .30 RAR's similarities to a PPC cartridge proved to be more than looks alone. Right out of the gate, the R-15 shot a one-hole, five-shot group with the MC. Average group size was easily under an inch, as indicated in the chart. The Core-Lokt opened up a bit, but it squeaked in at 0.04 under an inch. Average muzzle velocities for 10-round strings from the 22-inch barrel were 2,721 fps for the MC and 2,770 fps for the Core-Lokt, slightly down from the advertised 24-inch-barrel numbers of 2,800 fps. Recoil was negligible, and even at 22X, the crosshairs didn't move much on the paper.


http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/ST_r15andthe30rar_200905/index2.html



While I have no doubt those numbers are low–– hell I can almost get to 2200 with my 300 whisper and 125s, and thats 9.5".  

But no one seems to be wanting to get them right:
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/30_remington_ar.asp
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=671592


But this one seems closer:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=768445
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=756560

Remington did such a good job marketing the 6.8, I see they are keeping up the tradition.

Edit to add, basically what 7.62x40 said, but look for yourself.   A 125 at 2278 is less than impressive.   2800 is still mediocre.  At 3200, I might be interested.


the 300 Olympic OSSM is quoting at 150 at 3000.   Thats gonna spank the 30 AR all day long.    6.5mm WSSM wildcats are out there, someone needs to take that mainstream.   a 139gr Lapua 6.5 bullet at 3000 will reach out there.

The only drawback of WSSM rounds in the AR is you only get 6 or 8 rounds in a mag.   No reason to neck down a 458 socom when you have all these WSSM choices.   the 458 is setup for lower pressure.   A WSSM setup has a lot more meat on the bolt lugs and can handle a lot more pressure than any 458 or 7,62x39 bolt.

How about the:

6.5mm WSSM-ter-Weeme??


Link Posted: 10/6/2009 5:02:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:

While I have no doubt those numbers are low–– hell I can almost get to 2200 with my 300 whisper and 125s, and thats 9.5".  



no doubt....a 16" Whisper can hit 2,300fps  pretty easy.....

I hope it works out for em.......the more options on the street the better...
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 5:03:04 PM EDT
[#24]
Lol @ Rem's advertising. Does this mean that they actually only go 1900fps?

If that's the case they must be talking about it hitting like a .30 carbine !

Link Posted: 10/6/2009 5:24:57 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:

While I have no doubt those numbers are low–– hell I can almost get to 2200 with my 300 whisper and 125s, and thats 9.5".  



no doubt....a 16" Whisper can hit 2,300fps  pretty easy.....

I hope it works out for em.......the more options on the street the better...


But at how much pressure?
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 5:28:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

While I have no doubt those numbers are low–– hell I can almost get to 2200 with my 300 whisper and 125s, and thats 9.5".  



no doubt....a 16" Whisper can hit 2,300fps  pretty easy.....

I hope it works out for em.......the more options on the street the better...


But at how much pressure?




probably 65 million psi  
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 5:45:31 PM EDT
[#27]
Krochus:

I didn't think to look at Midway for the velocity figures on the new 30 Remington AR because I figured the
Remington website must be the best source of info for this cartridge.  Honest mistake on that one.  Remington
should really change that!
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 5:54:51 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Krochus:

I didn't think to look at Midway for the velocity figures on the new 30 Remington AR because I figured the
Remington website must be the best source of info for this cartridge.  Honest mistake on that one.  Remington
should really change that!


Hey it's not your fault

It's just typical Remington, those same erroneous numbers have been up for MONTHS now.  I'd send an email if I thought there was a snowball chance of it being read
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 7:12:59 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Derek, thanks for posting the numbers.  Not only does this new offering come NOWHERE close to a 308 ballistically, it even lags behind the 30-30.  I did not compare barrel lengths to see if the numbers that I looked at could be massaged a bit, but even with massaging the only comparison to the 308 is the bullet diameter.  That and perhaps they use the same size primer.

I actually look forward to some written reviews.  I would love to see how a gun writer could spin this one.  Years ago I tried to talk Marty into a 30 caliber something for the AR15 platform, and he gave me the big nah.  At least with the 6x45 he built for me when the 6.8 and 6.5 folks hammer me on ballistics I can at least fall back on brass, bolt and mags.  I generally like to support anything AR that the makers are willing to put out, but this new offering is really a dog.  No doubt that this cartridge will be able to kill things, you can look to the 30-30 Contender to see what it is capable of doing.  Still..............

Craig


...and to top that all off, I'm nearly positive those are quotes from a 22" barrel to boot.  Talk about a big fat steaming pile of _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank)!

The 762x39 is superior to this cartridge, especially when using a 20" barrel...


How many times are we going to point out that the numbers quoted are a misprint and are in fact ENERGY figures. I'm beginning to question fellas such as your self's motives.. I mean come on if this hillbilly welder from arkansas can figure this surely someone such as yourself who'se elbow deep in the industry can.........Unless you're choosing not to because it steals a however small amount of thunder form your pet 6.x round.


Shooting Times chronographed the 125grn factory 30RAR load at just shy of 2800 FPS

At Dr. Oehler's range, the .30 RAR's similarities to a PPC cartridge proved to be more than looks alone. Right out of the gate, the R-15 shot a one-hole, five-shot group with the MC. Average group size was easily under an inch, as indicated in the chart. The Core-Lokt opened up a bit, but it squeaked in at 0.04 under an inch. Average muzzle velocities for 10-round strings from the 22-inch barrel were 2,721 fps for the MC and 2,770 fps for the Core-Lokt, slightly down from the advertised 24-inch-barrel numbers of 2,800 fps. Recoil was negligible, and even at 22X, the crosshairs didn't move much on the paper.


http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/ST_r15andthe30rar_200905/index2.html



Wow, you just went right off the deep end with my post, didn't you?  

I have no stake in the AR game in either the caliber types or platform itself except to buy what looks interesting to me.  Perhaps you have me mixed up with someone else...or perhaps you meant to quote someone else's post last instead of mine.  Either way, I've never shot the 30RAR because I actually took the numbers listed on Remington's own site to be legit...a mistake that I could in no way have known or expected.  This is the first I've heard of the shooting times chrono shooting article, so I'm actually impressed with the numbers that article produced.  I just hope it's truly compatible with other ARs (upper/lower)...
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 8:09:55 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

While I have no doubt those numbers are low–– hell I can almost get to 2200 with my 300 whisper and 125s, and thats 9.5".  



no doubt....a 16" Whisper can hit 2,300fps  pretty easy.....

I hope it works out for em.......the more options on the street the better...


But at how much pressure?


I reload 125 gr bullets to 2240 fps. using 300-221 Fireball loads listed in the Sierra reloading manual. That I from a 16 inch barrel. So I would guess that the pressures ate running about 53000 to 55000 psi.

320pf



Link Posted: 10/6/2009 8:37:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Krochus,

I did the same thing Googled 30 Remington and ended up on a Remington website that had the low velocity numbers.  I also visited a website to get 30-30 and 308 numbers as I have neither.  No conspiracy here, no 6.? bias.  Sometimes we just make mistakes, or are making assumptions with erroneous information for inputs.

Craig
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 9:04:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Looks pretty lame.
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 9:37:07 AM EDT
[#33]
I am always interested in AR improvements, but I find the AR-10 is plenty handy in my hands and not a burden to haul around so all I see is a solution to a non-existant problem.  Marty thanks for pointing out the dog and pony show.
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 9:44:23 AM EDT
[#34]
125 at 2800 from a 24" barrel?

Proprietary lower?

Built by DPMS, painted in a fugly camo pattern that is about as durable as Krylon, and overpriced?

No thanks.

edit: And yet people think this company is going to pull off the ACR?
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 10:45:07 AM EDT
[#35]
This Round offers NOTHING  i do believe that it is dead already. The only people that will buy are 1) do not build any gun and do not reload and will not reload 2)Ones that dont know how many rounds there are out there already. Mike
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 11:57:03 AM EDT
[#36]
Limited to 4 round mags sweetens the deal too...
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 12:04:02 PM EDT
[#37]
I'd like some confirmation on this 'non-spec' lower business.

This has never been reported before.  To the contrary, the press has been that not only complete rifles, but also uppers for this cartridge would be made available thru DPMS that would run on standard lowers.  And there isnt any reason to change the lower to accomodate this cartridge ...

... except to make it a double stack.  If that is what they are doing, making an AR-15 widebody that will take double stack mags of wide calibers, then they are onto something.  Remington's attempts to screw up their own new calibers aside, I bet there are plenty of people would wait in line for a lower that would let them double stack a .458 SOCCOM or .50 Beowulf or .45 acp, etc .  Match that with an upper that would let you run those cartridges at 50-60K psi and you've got hell on wheels.
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 12:34:41 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
I'd like some confirmation on this 'non-spec' lower business.

This has never been reported before.  To the contrary, the press has been that not only complete rifles, but also uppers for this cartridge would be made available thru DPMS that would run on standard lowers.  And there isnt any reason to change the lower to accomodate this cartridge ...

... except to make it a double stack.  If that is what they are doing, making an AR-15 widebody that will take double stack mags of wide calibers, then they are onto something.  Remington's attempts to screw up their own new calibers aside, I bet there are plenty of people would wait in line for a lower that would let them double stack a .458 SOCCOM or .50 Beowulf or .45 acp, etc .  Match that with an upper that would let you run those cartridges at 50-60K psi and you've got hell on wheels.


Good point.  I've posted a few times in the last couple years that I'm suprised no one has built a wide body AR lower and mags that would double stack the big bore rounds ala Para Ordnance.

Link Posted: 10/7/2009 12:54:48 PM EDT
[#39]
Anyone got pics of this rumored massive magwell?    That would be surprisingly smart to have an upper (which looks to be very similar to the WSSM uppers), and then offer a wide body lower which you can use with it.   Like a 1911 vs a 2011  where the top end is the same.

If there is a demand for such a wide body lower to use with other bigbores, I am surprised someone has not offered one.   Lonewolf has a special glock lower , this is a similar idea.

I guess the other part of the game is the big fat mag and follower.
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 1:17:40 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
125 at 2800 from a 24" barrel?

Proprietary lower?

Built by DPMS, painted in a fugly camo pattern that is about as durable as Krylon, and overpriced?

No thanks.

edit: And yet people think this company is going to pull off the ACR?


I thought this thing was made by Bushmaster?
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 3:51:04 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
125 at 2800 from a 24" barrel?

Proprietary lower?

Built by DPMS, painted in a fugly camo pattern that is about as durable as Krylon, and overpriced?

No thanks.

edit: And yet people think this company is going to pull off the ACR?


I thought this thing was made by Bushmaster?


If it's an R-15, it's made by DPMS.
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 3:56:28 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
125 at 2800 from a 24" barrel?

Proprietary lower?

Built by DPMS, painted in a fugly camo pattern that is about as durable as Krylon, and overpriced?

No thanks.

edit: And yet people think this company is going to pull off the ACR?


I thought this thing was made by Bushmaster?


If it's an R-15, it's made by DPMS.



The R-15 is made by Bushmaster.  The R-25 is made by DPMS.
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 5:54:13 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
125 at 2800 from a 24" barrel?

Proprietary lower?

Built by DPMS, painted in a fugly camo pattern that is about as durable as Krylon, and overpriced?

No thanks.

edit: And yet people think this company is going to pull off the ACR?


I thought this thing was made by Bushmaster?


If it's an R-15, it's made by DPMS.



The R-15 is made by Bushmaster.  The R-25 is made by DPMS.


Wirebrush is right.
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 6:16:40 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
125 at 2800 from a 24" barrel?

Proprietary lower?

Built by DPMS, painted in a fugly camo pattern that is about as durable as Krylon, and overpriced?

No thanks.

edit: And yet people think this company is going to pull off the ACR?


I thought this thing was made by Bushmaster?


If it's an R-15, it's made by DPMS.



The R-15 is made by Bushmaster.  The R-25 is made by DPMS.


Wirebrush is right.


Oh, okay. You learn something new every day.
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 9:16:25 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Marty,

Could it be that Remington has not shaken completely the chains of Fuddiness?  You know, the 30-30, the 308 the '06, the Win Mag.  Perhaps in their marketing department they figured that there is a big segment of the shooting world that just cannot get past a 30 caliber bullet.  Besides, you know that 6.5 diameter bullet is only desired by those twinkies over in europe who like to hunt with cross country skis, and like their rifles with way to much forend wood

Craig


I don't like Schnabel fore-ends but back in the day I was killer in Langlauf...  need to dust off the telemark skills, hope to hit the powder next spring first time in a decade... seems not too much skiing in TX...

Sticking with the .30 cal - in light of the whole "let's ram .308 down NATO's throat" seems like the epitome of not having read one's history books.

I picture a meeting room full of bright young souls, having a debate (with Roger's Rules), taking turns using the latest HR-inspired team building and "outside the box" techniques.  Then some bright accountant brings up that they have lots of .30 cal bullets in stock and that it would make sense to use those, regardless of what would make a better cartridge.  And some old machinist sitting in the corner, weathered hands and face from having spent years hunting all over the US, clenching his teeth and his coffee cup as he lowers his head while shaking it and muttering "...fools..."


Almost sounds like General MacArthur vs. John Garand and his ..276 Pederson cartridge; better ballistics but billions of Cal .30 from WWI in storage.
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 9:24:42 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Anyone got pics of this rumored massive magwell?    That would be surprisingly smart to have an upper (which looks to be very similar to the WSSM uppers), and then offer a wide body lower which you can use with it.   Like a 1911 vs a 2011  where the top end is the same.

If there is a demand for such a wide body lower to use with other bigbores, I am surprised someone has not offered one.   Lonewolf has a special glock lower , this is a similar idea.

I guess the other part of the game is the big fat mag and follower.


I will see if I can get some pictures and use a PMag as reference - to my knowledge there are no 308 PMags out yet, so nobody can accuse me of using an AR10 magazine to compare.

Look at the picture of the lower in this article http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/RS_30remingtonar_200904/
Note the wider mag well and the strange configuration of the mag release - that is not an AR-15...

In this footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTpOPJRQe2k
Look at 0:30, 0:59, 1:19, freeze it, tell me what that magazine looks like...

It may very well be that the upper IS indeed compatible with standard lowers and standard magazines - however, the R-15 in .30 RAR that I held did NOT use a standard AR-15 magazine but what looks like a DPMS LR magazine shortened, with a two piece follower.  Perhaps there were some made like that and the newer ones are different???

And like I said in my first post, I think it opens up tremendous opportunities (if they make a 6.5 version, I may break down and buy one) and possibilities.  


Link Posted: 10/7/2009 10:39:07 PM EDT
[#47]
"At Dr. Oehler's range, the .30 RAR's similarities to a PPC cartridge proved to be more than looks alone. Right out of the gate, the R-15 shot a one-hole, five-shot group with the MC. Average group size was easily under an inch, as indicated in the chart. The Core-Lokt opened up a bit, but it squeaked in at 0.04 under an inch. Average muzzle velocities for 10-round strings from the 22-inch barrel were 2,721 fps for the MC and 2,770 fps for the Core-Lokt, slightly down from the advertised 24-inch-barrel numbers of 2,800 fps. Recoil was negligible, and even at 22X, the crosshairs didn't move much on the paper.

Wow, that's got to be a lightweight rifle at 22 inch barrel.  If you were to advertise this as an AR-15, then more realistic barrel lengths would be 16" ( most popular) and 20 inches.  

Remington advertised the 115 grain 6.8 SC as reaching 2800 FPS, in a 24" barrel.  Do you guys know anyone shooting a 24" 6.8 SPC?

Here are some facts:

1) the 30. Remington AR is NOT an AR-15, as Marty said.  I have now personally confirmed this.  However, I still think getting more calibers in the AR 'style" platform is always a good thing for all of us.   Remington got some egg on their faces when they released the SAAMI chamber, but we now know that the drawings may not have been entirely their fault, so I, too must give them a break with the 6.8.  We all know that they have abandoned it, but perhaps they never expected average shooters to continue to develop the cartridge,

2) the 6.8 X 43mm now routinely shoots an 85 grain Barnes TSX from a 16" barrel, at 3050 FPS, and the 100 grain Nosler Accubond at just under 3000 FPS.

Maybe someday hand loaders will make this cartridge as interesting as the 6.8 or 6.5 Grendel.  For now, I simply yawn and wonder why we need another 7.62 X 39
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 10:50:00 PM EDT
[#48]
Where is the 7.62x39 that will push a 125 gr bullet to 2700-2800 fps from any length barrel?
Link Posted: 10/7/2009 10:52:04 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:

And like I said in my first post, I think it opens up tremendous opportunities (if they make a 6.5 version, I may break down and buy one) and possibilities.  




I've wondered why companies that make 308 ARs keep making lowers with the same shitty magwell. Then they are all supposedly shocked when half the mags don't work! WTF?! Don't they do some research before investing huge wads of cash? They should design the gun around the magazine, not the magazine around the gun...so, now that I think about it some more, maybe it's not such a bad idea, but I think the cartridge is a non-starter and they'll probably lose interest just like they did with the 6.8. And if they don't make enough lowers, there won't be enough interest for companies to make aftermarket mags in other calibers.  And then we're back to square one.
Link Posted: 10/8/2009 2:03:29 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:

And like I said in my first post, I think it opens up tremendous opportunities (if they make a 6.5 version, I may break down and buy one) and possibilities.  




I've wondered why companies that make 308 ARs keep making lowers with the same shitty magwell. Then they are all supposedly shocked when half the mags don't work! WTF?! Don't they do some research before investing huge wads of cash? They should design the gun around the magazine, not the magazine around the gun...so, now that I think about it some more, maybe it's not such a bad idea, but I think the cartridge is a non-starter and they'll probably lose interest just like they did with the 6.8. And if they don't make enough lowers, there won't be enough interest for companies to make aftermarket mags in other calibers.  And then we're back to square one.


I have noticed all the posts about bad magazines from the 308 configuration.  What is it, in your opinion, about the magazine well that is causing this?  Just wondering what you have picked up in your experiences.
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