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jagermaster
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Posted: 7/15/2008 4:18:40 PM
[Last Edit: 7/17/2008 4:00:48 PM by jagermaster]

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
Hornady has finally released reloading data for the 450b.

They e-mailed it to me today.









Powder_Burns
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Posted: 7/15/2008 4:45:38 PM
What kind of loads do they show and what velocities? Hell just email it to me.
jagermaster
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Posted: 7/15/2008 5:09:38 PM
Just a quick over view.

Barrel 16"

250gr FTX 2200fps with 37.9gr of lil'gun

240gr XTP/MAG 2300fps with 38.3gr lil'gun

300gr XTP/MAG 1900fps with 32.2gr lil'gun

Standard Disclaimer about load data "Use at own risk"

powderburns send me your email and I will send you the pdf from hornady
Cold
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Posted: 7/15/2008 6:02:23 PM
Dang, email me it as well.
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jagermaster
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Posted: 7/17/2008 4:04:09 PM
btt
Cold
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Posted: 7/17/2008 6:33:15 PM
Who from Hornady sent you that? Mitch, Steve Johnson or someone else?
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jagermaster
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Posted: 7/17/2008 8:10:39 PM

Originally Posted By Cold:
Who from Hornady sent you that? Mitch, Steve Johnson or someone else?


It was Bob Palmer. He was just a person that answered the phone when I called the tech dept. Contrary to what I want I'm not a person with any inside contacts.
I would like to talk to Mitch but I do not think I'm high enough on the food chain to ask for him without an inside introduction. Hint Hint if any one knows Mitch Mittelstaedt.

Cold
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Posted: 7/17/2008 10:08:30 PM

Originally Posted By jagermaster:

Originally Posted By Cold:
Who from Hornady sent you that? Mitch, Steve Johnson or someone else?


It was Bob Palmer. He was just a person that answered the phone when I called the tech dept. Contrary to what I want I'm not a person with any inside contacts.
I would like to talk to Mitch but I do not think I'm high enough on the food chain to ask for him without an inside introduction. Hint Hint if any one knows Mitch Mittelstaedt.



I have spoken to him several times at SHOT, he is a nice guy and I do not think he is above talking to anyone interested in the round.
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MartytW
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Posted: 7/17/2008 10:49:36 PM

Originally Posted By jagermaster:

Originally Posted By Cold:
Who from Hornady sent you that? Mitch, Steve Johnson or someone else?


It was Bob Palmer. He was just a person that answered the phone when I called the tech dept. Contrary to what I want I'm not a person with any inside contacts.
I would like to talk to Mitch but I do not think I'm high enough on the food chain to ask for him without an inside introduction. Hint Hint if any one knows Mitch Mittelstaedt.



Mitch is good people, just don't ask him about LV airport security ...

Mr. Hornady himself is very good people too, very easy to talk to.
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Blammer
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Posted: 7/17/2008 11:03:26 PM
SWEET!

Where can you get a barrel?

That's the trouble I'm having!
jagermaster
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Posted: 7/19/2008 6:12:21 PM

Originally Posted By Blammer:
SWEET!

Where can you get a barrel?

That's the trouble I'm having!


Bushmaster
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Posted: 7/21/2008 6:20:01 PM
Thanks for the reloading info.
Blammer
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Posted: 7/21/2008 8:00:53 PM
thanks!

gave bushmaster a call, I may be getting a bolt and barrel on the way.

I have a question, the ejection port, is it any larger than on a standard 223 Upper?

If so, how much larger?

Can it be millled out on a standard AR upper?
jagermaster
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Posted: 9/6/2008 6:06:40 PM
I shot my first rounds of reloaded 450BM today. I started at 36.5gr of h110 and went to 40.6gr h110. The over all was 2.06 with hornady 240gr .452 xtp/mag. I had heavy sooting of the cartridge until I reached 40gr, but the only one that had no sooting was the highest load of 40.6gr. The last 4 that I shot had the same point of impact as the factory rounds, 40gr, 40.2gr, 40.4gr, and 40.6gr. The last 4 were also 1.1min of angle.
All of my shots were at 100 yds.

I could not be happier. My next batch will be 40.6gr.

I do have a question for some pros out their, how far over the hornady printed max loads can I go safely?

Their were no pressure signs.
Bearbait1
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Posted: 9/8/2008 12:43:33 PM
Jager,

No one will be able to answer your question about going over max. You might get away with it for some number of reloads. You might also blow a case, wrecking you and/or the gun. You might also not have any problems until you shear a bolt lug. Who knows how many rounds. You have you know who saying, go for it, the more powder the better. he might be right, the problem is that he may be the only person thinking and proving this. Until then, going over the "published" max means that you and only you will have to be responsible for your loads.

I noticed that you are not giving any velocity readings. If you do not have a chrony of some kind, IMHO it would be fool hardy to exceed published loads. You could already be over the published performance numbers, and possibly in the red zone. The other thing that a chrony will do for you is give you a guage to evaluate these hot loads. For example, if you can get 50-100 fps more velocity, and convince yourself that the loads are safe, what does this increase mean for you. A half inch flatter at 100 yards, x amount of increased energy? Are these numbers meaningful? Are you outrunning the bullet design? Are you shortening the life of the bolt? How Short? You won't know until you break one.

Reading pressure signs can be a lot like reading tea leaves. Shooting one of the other big bore AR's, I can tell you that we have some serious debate on pressure signs, and in the AR platform these can be different than in a bolt gun. If you want to exceed the published numbers, you really need to have a sincere discussion with yourself about what can be gained v. what can be lost. If you are new to this red lining game, remember one mistake could wreck your gun, or cripple you for life. This is true for any handloading, but more so for the experimentation game. If you decide to go for it, there are gonna be lots of guys wanting you to suceed, convincing you to push things. But, they have no investment, you will carry the full burdon.

Good luck, and it sounds like you have one heck of a performing gun,

Craig
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Cold
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Posted: 9/8/2008 12:47:53 PM


Reading pressure signs can be a lot like reading tea leaves. Shooting one of the other big bore AR's, I can tell you that we have some serious debate on pressure signs, and in the AR platform these can be different than in a bolt gun. If you want to exceed the published numbers, you really need to have a sincere discussion with yourself about what can be gained v. what can be lost. If you are new to this red lining game, remember one mistake could wreck your gun, or cripple you for life. This is true for any handloading, but more so for the experimentation game. If you decide to go for it, there are gonna be lots of guys wanting you to suceed, convincing you to push things. But, they have no investment, you will carry the full burdon.
Craig



Well said Craig, I would be very very hesitant to go over the stated loads from Hornady, mainly due to what is stated above. If there is no pressing reason to exceed it, then why? What you have no seems to be working well, why risk your gun, or more, for a few extra fps?
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jagermaster
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Posted: 9/8/2008 8:47:00 PM
Bearbait and cold

I know you are right and I just needed to hear it again. I am going to stay within the published #s, and no I do not have a chronograph yet witch sucks. I am having a blast reloading for the 450. Defiantly the essayist round I have ever reloaded. After I sized them they didn't need trimming, how great is that.


From what ar15barrels told me that you would not see pressure signs at 38,000psi.
What were some of the discussions about pressure signs in the 458 socom?

Bearbait I know you shoot the 454C and was wondering if you had any ideas on some bullets for reloading that will take the speeds the the 450bm produces. I tried to call Siera today to find out about there 300gr .451 sports master JSP but I was just left on hold. I have also been looking at the nosler partitions, and the barns 460 s&w bullets but they cost a lot.



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Posted: 9/8/2008 10:09:55 PM
Jager,

Most of the pressure discussions have to do with reading the above mentioned tea leaves. A flattened or cupped primer is easy to follow. Then you have case head expansion, primer pocket expansion and finally brass marks, swipes from the ejector and extractor. Some of the 458S users are looking for easy signs of pressure, swipes and marks to read. They perhaps do not have the inclination to make the other measurements. Basically, Marty, the developer of the round has stated his thoughts on pressure by the quick signs. Others have posted their thoughts. What we do know is that nothing has been pressure tested. Brass marks are common with factory rounds, that some guns have digested in large quantity with no ill effects to date. I tend to load down a bit, out of respect for my bolt and brass, a lot of guys load full throttle. It is just hard to make definative conclusions, likley only possible if we get pressure testing done. In the end, all appear to be safe, and all provide extreme performance levels, the devil will likely be in brass life and bolt life.

The problem with the Casull designed bullets out there is that at 2200ish fps with a 240 grain bullet, you are already over 454 Casull design velocities. I recently tested some 240XTP mag bullets out of my 460 Rowland, and even at 1200 fps, they were opening pretty radically in my dirt testing. But this was only dirt.

I do not know what size of critter your ultimate goal will be, but I think I might only loose sleep if you are talking elk, moose or perhaps big bear. If you are talking whitetail, mulies hogs or the like, I suspect the 240XTP would work. Same with the Partition or X bullet. You really need to try some penetration testing for yourself. Wet newspaper works reasonably well, and dry newspaper is an ultimate test. You can cream a bullet in dry print. Print testing will not tell you exactly how a bullet will work on a given critter, but will help you get a feel for what will penetrate deeper, what may fail, when comparing different bullets against each other. You might find that going heavier, like 300 grains might give you the best of both worlds, rapid expansion, with the heavier core pentrating deeper. Remember, that with your 450B, a lighter bullet at close range is a recipe for excessive expansion. But, you may just peel the petals flat, or even shear, but you will likley have a bullet base that tracks on through the animal. The heavier bullets usually have a heavier base.

I prefer a bullet that will not seperate the core and jacket when impacting hard and fast. If I were reloading for the 450B, I would certainly try the Partition and Barnes X first, followed by the XTP and Gold Dot, likely last. And, I would contact Freedom Arms and see what they have for their JFP. I think they only offer a 240 or 260 still. The FA bullet has a very hard lead core and thick jacket. I would also try dropping JD Jones of SSK Industries a note, and ask them what they would recommend for an Encore in 460S&W for a bullet. The 460 in the Encore should duplicate your 450B possibilites, and SSK knows what works on game. None of these are cheap, but you will not need a boatload to test for yourself to get a comfort level of expansion and penetration across the boards. Then, once you have bitten the bullet and found a hunting load, try some lesser bullets for plinking or appliances. And, I would be searching like crazy for info on the S&W 460 on line. You will likley find a lot of useful info on bullet performance, that should be close to your 450B.

I am guessing that after this fall/winter hunting season, your gonna have a lot of information on what works on game. I am suspecting an awful lot of DRT critters.

Craig
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Posted: 9/11/2008 5:00:15 PM
bearbait

Thank you for all of your advice. I have not had a chance to retrieve anymore of my bullets because I have been shooting at a public range recently, its only 15min from my house instead of the 30 min to deer camp. Yes I said deer camp, I will be hunting white tail with my 450bm.

I was able to shoot 26 of my reloads today. I loaded 8 rounds into a new mag pull pmag and it fed all 8 rounds, I loaded 8 rounds again and they all fed, On the third try it fed all but the last round. On the third attempt I filed the little titty off of the front of the mag because I noticed it was getting ragged.

There was also a nice guy that let me use his chrony.
240gr XTP/MAG 40gr H110 COL 2.060
2322 FPS
Exactly what the hornady load data states.

I found a good deal on some 275gr Barnes 460S&W bullets so I got 200 of them.
I believe this will be my new hunting bullet.
I am also going to order some lil gun because I heard it is less susceptible to temp.

I think that the barns bullets will be the best pick for the 450bm because like bearbait said " you may just peel the petals flat, or even shear, but you will likely have a bullet base that tracks on through the animal". I called barns and the petals are only 25% or less of the weight.
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Posted: 9/11/2008 5:37:58 PM
Just an update I called Hornady and talked to Mitch.
Nice guy and very helpful.
Confirmed all of my info and answered lots of questions.
He said H110 is the best powder and it is very close to the powder that they use in the factory ammo.
He also said that the 450bm should be loaded close to max published loads, because it seals the case to the chamber for better accuracy and smaller spread in fps.

I asked him about the 275gr Barnes and he said that the 300gr load data is the best to use. I kinda squeezed it out of him but he said i can load between the 250gr and the 300gr data but I must work it up and use a chronograph wile doing it.
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Posted: 9/11/2008 6:42:32 PM
Jager,

You will likley not have any problem with the Barnes 275. It is listed on the Barnes web site as a 460 S&W bullet, which means that you will be right where you need to be velocity wise. I would not loose a whit of sleep with that bullet on deer. Plus, it ought to suitable for most anytheng else you plan on hunting.

There would be a couple of reasons for Hornady to squirm about data for the Barnes. First, it is the competitions bullet Second, it gets to be a little tricky extrapolating, with queries over the phone.

I am guessing your Barnes bullets came with the little card inside that reminds to load 50 thou off the lands. Likley to fit the magazine, you will have at least that clearance, but I would check. An easy way to do this is to split a case perpendicular to the mouth, at the mouth, so a bullet just pushes in with finger pressure. Leave it long, and thumb it into you chamber until the case bottoms on the chamber. The lands will push the bullet deeper. Carefully remove, and you can measure this OAL and compare to a Barnes reload. The difference between the two will roughly approximate bullet jump to the lands, Again, should be at least 50 thou, if Barnes is still recommending this.

Another reason why the Hornady tech might have been reserved has to do with the Barnes design. Being all copper, they are always long for weight, when compared to conventional bullets. What this usually means to the reloader is that the base of the bullet is usually deeper in the case for a given OAL. If so, then your pressures might be higher than you think, by just splitting the difference between 240ish and 300 grain loads. Once you settle on an OAL to try, compared to your other loads, I would do a comparison of bullet depth in the case. If it looks like the Barnes is sitting deeper, taking up more powder space, my inclination would be to start on the low end, like 200 grain data. Perhaps not loading a bunch, but what I would be looking for, without access to a chrony is shortstroking. Load one at a time, and see if you are getting bolt hold open. If not, you can sort of surmise that you are at least starting in a safe region of not enough pressure. You have to be a little careful here if reloading H110/296 as they like good case fill %.

I would say that without a chrony it is going to be difficult to find the safe ceiling, per Hornady numbers, that you can bet on. Once you get over the shortstroking point, and perhaps are not seeing any other pressure signs, I would stop when you find something that is very accurate. Once you have access to a chrony, then perhaps find the ceiling. In the mean time, even if you are only at 2000 fps, your gonna be whacking deer with way more than enough energy and proper bullet construction to impress anyone, or any hooved critter

I wish you much luck on your hunt,

Craig

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jagermaster
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Posted: 9/11/2008 6:52:14 PM
I meant to relay that I'm going to get a chronograph before I start to work a load with the 275gr barns. I'm looking at getting 2000 fps with this bullet. I will test to see wear the bullet contacts the lands. I know that the 450bm has .2in of free boar.

Thanks for the info and the luck on the hunt.
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Posted: 9/17/2008 10:07:23 PM
Bravo Gentleman on your work!

I bought a 450B Upper this past Christmas. Shot it only a few times with factory ammo. Just put a new scope on it. Also plan on loading for it soon! Thank you for your time and efforts. It's much apprieciated.

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Posted: 3/4/2009 9:04:55 PM
I finally acquired a Chrony and have done some testing.
With my best load so far I produced a 5 shot 3/4in group @ 100yds.

16in barrel
about 70 deg
no wind
COL 2.26
trim length 1.695
Bullet Barns 275gr .451
H110 powder
crimp: taper crimp and 45-70 lee factory crimp die adjusted to just above the last driving band on the bullet see second picture

First I tried to work up to safe velocities.
29gr 1654fps
31gr 1771fps
33gr error
34gr error
35gr 1855fps
36gr error
37gr 1942fps
38gr 2004fps

Next I shot 5 rounds with 35gr h110
1870 fps
1821 fps
1835 fps
1854 fps
1862 fps

37gr H110 5shot 3/4in group at 100yds
1921 fps
1957 fps
1950 fps
1969 fps
1957 fps

I am going to the range this weekend to try 10 rounds I have loaded with 38gr of H110



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Posted: 3/5/2009 6:44:44 PM
Jager,

Thanks for posting your results. I bet you are one happy camper right now. I do want to point out that it looks like on your target that you typed to be 37 grains looks to me to have 27 grains written on it.

I hope some of the 458S guys see your results. What you are confirming is what a lot of us already know about H110. It likes to have good load density to work best. At least that is what it looks like to me. Gnerally you would have wild swings in velocity to go with poor accuracy, but perhaps your 35 grain load is up to the point where denisity has less effect on velocity than it would on accuracy. Eiher way, at least you now have one recipe that shoots lights out. Very nice. Now to back calculate some distance numbers to correspond with the operating envelope of the bullet

Craig
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Posted: 3/6/2009 2:44:44 PM
Originally Posted By Bearbait1:
Jager,

Thanks for posting your results. I bet you are one happy camper right now. I do want to point out that it looks like on your target that you typed to be 37 grains looks to me to have 27 grains written on it.

I hope some of the 458S guys see your results. What you are confirming is what a lot of us already know about H110. It likes to have good load density to work best. At least that is what it looks like to me. Generally you would have wild swings in velocity to go with poor accuracy, but perhaps your 35 grain load is up to the point where density has less effect on velocity than it would on accuracy. Either way, at least you now have one recipe that shoots lights out. Very nice. Now to back calculate some distance numbers to correspond with the operating envelope of the bullet

Craig


Craig
Yes I am a happy camper with the results. It is 37gr of H110 I wrote the wrong charge on the target wile I was at the range.
At 35gr the cases had some minor sooting on the cases indicating that the pressure was not high enough to seal the case in the chamber.
I think the velocities were consistent because I used a good crimp about .25in down the cartridge case as seen in picture above.
Me and others have been using the 45-70 lee factory crimp die slightly modified to get a good hold on the bullet upon cambering so it will not move.
The taper crimp die from hornady was not completely stopping the Barnes bullet from moving forward during the violent cambering of the ar.

Craig what velocities would you stop at for the .458 if you had a bullet that weighed 275gr?
I was thinking 2000fps or 2100, I believe that 2000fps is in the .450 operating pressure range but was unsure of 2100fps.