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Basic
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Posted: 1/2/2008 6:07:34 PM EST
I keep reading about how accurate this cartridge is and how its setting all kinds of records but nobody seems to have it and/or like it? Anbody have any thoughts on it? Andy experience with or info on it???

I was noticing DPMS offered a 6mm PPC upper with a 1:10 twist (seems a bit tight), any thoughts?

Thanks


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Link Posted: 1/2/2008 6:28:46 PM EST
If you want a 6mm in an AR, I'd recommend Robert Whitley's 6mmAR. His Website shows a comparison photo between the 6mmPPC and his 6mmAR.

John

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Link Posted: 1/2/2008 6:52:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2008 6:56:47 PM EST by gdblair]

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
If you want a 6mm in an AR, I'd recommend Robert Whitley's 6mmAR. His Website shows a comparison photo between the 6mmPPC and his 6mmAR.

John

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I was going to recommend the same as I used to have a hankering for the 6mm ppc years ago before this current crop of high performers came along.Brass should be easier to come by now.Should perform similarly, after you've loaded up some boat tails try some recessed boat tails and see if it don't improve some.

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Link Posted: 1/2/2008 7:05:45 PM EST
This prob. will sound pathetic.

I have a 6mm PPC-USA AR upper. Custom made by Tony @ Tromix some time ago. I don't even recall the twist, but I wanted one to shoot heavier bullets.

Any how, I've only shot it a few time- haven't had the time to make brass to give it a work out. Can't even tell you how accurate it is since I was sighting in the scope- ran out of workable rounds. Like I said, didn't have time to make brass ( was going to start w/ 7.62x39, but that is a lot of work... so I'll prob. just buck up and by some 220 Russian and reform).

Like you, I heard it was a good round. I wanted a nice round to hunt with and at the time, there wasn't much options for AR uppers. I didn't want a complete wildcat round- but some would say the 6mm PPC is a wildcat by nature (though it is standardized.....somewhat).

Very seldom you will find loaded ammo, let a lone pre-formed cases. When I searched online after receiving my upper (And this was when the 1994 Ban hadn't expired- so it was at least pre 2004), not may places had 6mm PPC brass- I don't think I found any. Most people who shot it made their own brass since they competed (the used brass I got prob had much different specs then what my chamber is, some chambering issues on a few rounds). Any how, I would hazard a guess that only someone who reloads and likes to form brass shoots it or competes.

I'm gonna have to pull the rounds I have and start fresh. You don't go to a gun store and buy ammo. And unless you are 'into' reloading (ie equipment, etc, etc), most people wouldn't want this cal. I'm a beginner reloader- and that's prob. my problem. (I think case forming and neck turning is for experienced folks).

I just searched online again, as I was typing this. 220 Russian is more available, but it runs $70-85.00 per 100 cases. Yes, expensive. That's why people start w/ 7.62x39 (which is the 220 Russian's parent case), but it is more work- so they say.

Too many projects.....

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Link Posted: 1/2/2008 7:23:20 PM EST
Yeah, if you wanted to simplify things a great deal you could go with the 6.5 grendel since it is loaded commercially.Load light bullets and you'd get close performance wise.

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Link Posted: 1/2/2008 7:26:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By gdblair:
Yeah, if you wanted to simplify things a great deal you could go with the 6.5 grendel since it is loaded commercially.Load light bullets and you'd get close performance wise.


+1

I think the Grendel was 'just' coming out when I had my 6mm PPC built...... but still can't recall how far back that was.
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Link Posted: 1/2/2008 7:41:23 PM EST
I'm thinking of the 6x45, I see AR uppers for sale from time to time, some even include dies,

it's a simple case reform from a 223 case, and fire formed to chamber and works in the mags.
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Link Posted: 1/2/2008 7:41:27 PM EST
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Link Posted: 1/2/2008 7:50:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2008 7:55:16 PM EST by Kaliburz]

Originally Posted By Cold:

Originally Posted By Kaliburz:

Originally Posted By gdblair:
Yeah, if you wanted to simplify things a great deal you could go with the 6.5 grendel since it is loaded commercially.Load light bullets and you'd get close performance wise.


+1

I think the Grendel was 'just' coming out when I had my 6mm PPC built...... but still can't recall how far back that was.



I wouldnt give up on that upper if it was built by Tromix...those guys, aka Tony is really a leader in the field...


I'm not giving up. I just wanted to tell the OP that 6mm PPC may not be for him IF he doesn't reload. As most stuff related to the 6mm PPC is all components, very seldom loaded ammo. It's one thing to BUY ready to load cases, but having to FORM them first, some people might get squeamish.....

And as stated by others, there are A LOT of other options besides 6mm PPC now.

I have two uppers from Tromix, a 6mm PPC and a 440 Corbon upper. (Forming cases for the 440 is VERY easy.... just run the 50 AE case up into the sizing die- lubed of coarse)


Here is my baby: (Upper is currently off of rifle- And yes, that is a Cav Arms lower- RRA trigger group)



24" Bull barrel (now I recall details- minus twist)
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Link Posted: 1/2/2008 8:07:17 PM EST
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Link Posted: 1/2/2008 9:09:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cold:

I agree on the rest of what you said. I have been eyeing the 6mm WOA lately myself.


I happened to see one of these built on a left hand upper on a gunbroker aution recently for 8bills outright, the dies were included also,

I gave serious thought to bidding since cases are said to be easily formed by a single pass through the size die.
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Link Posted: 1/3/2008 1:42:38 AM EST
The 6 PPC is still the top dog in benchrest competition, as it has been since the late 70's.

The brass situation isn't what it used to be, you can buy Norma 6PPC from several sources. Supposedly Lapua has 6 PCC brass floating around, but I have yet to see any. Sako had cases and loaded ammunition several years ago, but I haven't seen any in a long time.

Depending on what the neck diameter is on your chamber, you can buy fully prepped match brass as well.

www.shooters-supply.com/bullets_and_brass.html

www.brunoshooters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BSS&Product_Code=6PPCNT&Category_Code=7

www.6mmbr.com/6ppc.html
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Link Posted: 1/4/2008 1:54:04 PM EST
if you look at the 6x45, you will see that it comes close to the velocitys of the 6ppc. not exactly, but close. and there are a lot of guys that have harvested many a deer with it. in africa, its even availible as a factory loading, and regaurded as a fine hunting rifle. try a google search for.... 6x45 and africa. its a really good read. hope this helps, brian

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Link Posted: 1/5/2008 7:29:25 AM EST
I just received my 20" 6mm WOA barrel and reloading dies from John Hollinger at White Oak Precision. It is a lovely barrel. If you are interested, shoot me an e-mail and I'll fill you in on what I find with this cartridge. It should fling an 85 grain barnes X-bullet at ~ 2900-3000 fps.

I am going to use the upper for varmint, predator and antelope hunting...

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Link Posted: 2/2/2008 10:29:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/2/2008 10:43:05 PM EST by Kaliburz]
Okay, since the weather is cold and I can't go out to do 'farm work', I decided to work on the 6mm PPC.

I understand that the 6mm PPC a 'semi wildcat'. It is standardized, but there is still variation......

I have the 6mm PPC USA chambering. For some odd reason, I can't seem to fine info on what the neck info for the USA is. I'm sure that most people who 'know' the 6mm PPC could answer that quickly. Any ways, I was wondering if it would work in the USA chamber w/out any issues????

That Norma price on one of the links above is nice.... better then $1.71 for formed 220 Russian cases....
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Link Posted: 2/3/2008 1:37:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ndenway:
I'm thinking of the 6x45, I see AR uppers for sale from time to time, some even include dies,

it's a simple case reform from a 223 case, and fire formed to chamber and works in the mags.


To make the 6X45 all you have to do is run a 223 case through a 6x45 sizer die. No fire forming is needed. Fire forming is when you actually fire a case through a particular firearm and form the case by shooting it. E.G. this is how you would make the 7-30Waters. Neck down a 30-30 case and fire it in a rifle chamberred for the Waters round. By shooting the necked down 30-30 case you blow it out to a 7-30 chamber.

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Link Posted: 2/3/2008 2:15:14 AM EST
The 6PPC-USA is the chamber that Sako standardized for SAAMI, in its unmodified form the print I've got shows a .270" neck diameter.

But..there are tight necked 6PPC-USA reamers too, .262 being the most common.

About the only way you're going to know for sure is to contact whomever chambered your barrel, or buy some Cerrosafe and make a chamber cast.

If it will chamber an unturned piece of preformed 6PCC brass, chances are you've got the .270 neck....
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Link Posted: 2/3/2008 10:38:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/3/2008 10:40:06 AM EST by Orddy]
Myself and my best friend both have 6mm ppc AR-15 uppers and love them. We use them extensively for shooting long range pasture poodles. I form and neck turn all my own brass from 7.62X39 brass with match quality results. We mostly use 70 to 75 gr bullets and are extremely happy with the accuracy. Less than a min of angle easily. Magazines can be somewhat of an issue but if you work with them........you can get them to work with 7 to 8 rounds consistantly. Thats plenty for most types of shooting. They barrel will get hot on you before you will use more than a couple of mags. I used to sell the brass i made on ebay before they decided to take a communist stand for gun control and now only make it for those who contact me on a one to one basis. It is definately not a cartridge for someone who doesn't reload or a beginner. I hope I've helped answer a few questions......and feel free to contact me at gobber2@hotmail.com if you have anymore questions or info to pass on. Happy shooting guys and enjoy the 6mm PPC. Oh.......i got my upper from Model 1 and am completely satisfied with it too.

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Link Posted: 3/1/2008 11:08:34 AM EST
Today i tried the new 223wssm AR at the range and was extremely impressed with it's potential. I need to do some more load developement but this looks like a good long range alternative on non windy days. My next purchase is going to be a 243wssm and i'm hoping this will carry me out to that magical distance of 1000 yds and be a better alternative for those windy Dakota days. I'll let ya all know what happens as i get some gun time on it.
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Link Posted: 3/1/2008 12:11:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/1/2008 12:13:36 PM EST by DnPRK]

Originally Posted By Kaliburz:
This prob. will sound pathetic.

I have a 6mm PPC-USA AR upper. Custom made by Tony @ Tromix some time ago. I don't even recall the twist, but I wanted one to shoot heavier bullets.

Any how, I've only shot it a few time- haven't had the time to make brass to give it a work out. Can't even tell you how accurate it is since I was sighting in the scope- ran out of workable rounds. Like I said, didn't have time to make brass ( was going to start w/ 7.62x39, but that is a lot of work... so I'll prob. just buck up and by some 220 Russian and reform).

Like you, I heard it was a good round. I wanted a nice round to hunt with and at the time, there wasn't much options for AR uppers. I didn't want a complete wildcat round- but some would say the 6mm PPC is a wildcat by nature (though it is standardized.....somewhat).

Very seldom you will find loaded ammo, let a lone pre-formed cases. When I searched online after receiving my upper (And this was when the 1994 Ban hadn't expired- so it was at least pre 2004), not may places had 6mm PPC brass- I don't think I found any. Most people who shot it made their own brass since they competed (the used brass I got prob had much different specs then what my chamber is, some chambering issues on a few rounds). Any how, I would hazard a guess that only someone who reloads and likes to form brass shoots it or competes.

I'm gonna have to pull the rounds I have and start fresh. You don't go to a gun store and buy ammo. And unless you are 'into' reloading (ie equipment, etc, etc), most people wouldn't want this cal. I'm a beginner reloader- and that's prob. my problem. (I think case forming and neck turning is for experienced folks).

I just searched online again, as I was typing this. 220 Russian is more available, but it runs $70-85.00 per 100 cases. Yes, expensive. That's why people start w/ 7.62x39 (which is the 220 Russian's parent case), but it is more work- so they say.

Too many projects.....

Art at Silver State Armory sells 6mm PPC brass for $41.95 per hundred.

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Link Posted: 5/6/2008 6:57:07 PM EST
I make all my 6mm ppc cases from 7.62X39 brass. My Redding form dies do a very nice job reforming the cases but after reforming the brass.......the necks MUST be turned. Yes it is ALOT of work but i think it's well worth it. I just this in my AR15 for shooting prairie dogs and love the results i'm getting using 70 and 75 grain bullets in the wind that we have here in So Dak. I've been known to make cases for others from time to time also. If interested.......feel free to email me or im me.........
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Link Posted: 5/7/2008 6:27:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
If you want a 6mm in an AR, I'd recommend Robert Whitley's 6mmAR. His Website shows a comparison photo between the 6mmPPC and his 6mmAR.

John

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AZ,

I just purchased one of Robert Whitley's 6mm AR uppers (I am still in the load development stage). This cartridge is very similar in performance to the 6mm WOA, but designed to shoot heavier bullets without eating too much powder capacity. Because of the shorter case length, heavier bullets can be seated far enough forward to maximize case capacity while still making magazine length.

So far I am getting 2850 to 2900fps very easily with the Sierra 107 gr match kings, without any serious signs of pressure. Combined with fairly high ballistic coefficient bullets (.500- .535) make this a fairly long-range capable caliber. The 6mm AR will also shoot the 75gr Hornady V-Max bullets approx. 3100+ fps.

The 6mm AR does not seem to suffer from the overgassing and bolt breakage problems that 6.5 Grendel has when you 'push the envelope'. Yes, commercial 6.5 Grendel ammo is available. but reports of accuracy has been pretty lackluster, even from custom built rifles/uppers with high quality barrels.

What I love most about this caliber is that Mr. Whitley designed it to be very easy to reload, and has tweaked the chamber dimensions so that neck turning and case trimming to form brass is not necessary; simply full-length size a 6.5 Grendel case and load. Brass is readily available and very high quality (Lapua), and will give many loadings.

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Link Posted: 5/8/2008 2:29:35 AM EST

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Link Posted: 5/8/2008 5:35:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By HotLead: The 6mm AR does not seem to suffer from the overgassing and bolt breakage problems that 6.5 Grendel has when you 'push the envelope'.


You were doing fine when you stick to what you know. If the bolt is the same, and back-thrust pressures are the same, how would the 6.5 Grendel break more bolts than the 6mmAR?

Whitley is a serious competitor and makes a top-quality product. It's unfair to compare his product to what amount to bootleg 6.5 Grendel products, whose defects have been well-documented on my site (reference posts by a guy named LR1955).


Originally Posted By HotLead: Yes, commercial 6.5 Grendel ammo is available. but reports of accuracy has been pretty lackluster, even from custom built rifles/uppers with high quality barrels.


Same caveat applies as above. And you seem to be forgetting the "reports of accuracy" that have been absolutely stellar. Are you referring to the Wolf 123 SP hunting load? I'll grant you that one. . . .

John

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Link Posted: 5/8/2008 2:22:15 PM EST
...yes, I was referring to the Wolf ammo. I know the AA and Black Hills ammo is high quality stuff.

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Link Posted: 5/8/2008 3:09:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2008 3:16:16 AM EST by WalkerTexasRanger]

Originally Posted By Grendelizor: It's unfair to compare his product to what amount to bootleg 6.5 Grendel products, whose defects have been well-documented on my site (reference posts by a guy named LR1955).
John


Interesting, John. Do you remember who happened to have assembled LRs defective upper, that you are subtly implying is a "bootleg"?

In addition, you appear to be implying that these "bootleg" uppers where the only ones breaking bolts. IIRC, when Bill Waites, your moderator, analyzed what was actually happening with the bolts, it was about a 1-1 ratio between AAs and the "bootleg" uppers bolts. Again, IIRC, his determination was that the difference was not necessarily the bolts mfg, but whether or not the shooter was shooting hot handloads.

Now to the OP, the 6PPC is a proven Benchrest cartridge, no doubt. It would be a toss up between the 6PPC and the 6AR, as they are essentially the same thing. The choice you would want to make is what brass do you want to use. If you want to use Lapua, the 6MMAR would be much easier. If you want to use SSA 6PPC, go for that.

You will see zero difference in performance...

ETA, the 10 twist is a bit odd, really. Most BR shooters shoot 62-68 grain bullets from 13.5 to 14 twist barrels. If you are wanting to shoot Sierra 107s or the like, you would need and 8 twist barrel. I guess the DPMS target market with a 10 is a varmint hunter wanting to shoot 75-90 grain bullets.
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Link Posted: 5/8/2008 11:12:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ndenway:
I'm thinking of the 6x45, I see AR uppers for sale from time to time, some even include dies,

it's a simple case reform from a 223 case, and fire formed to chamber and works in the mags.


High Standard has an ad n SGN for ammo, uppers and I think dies too. I remember reading an article on the 6X45MM in Fighting Firearms ( I think that's what it was in) about how good a round the 6X45MM was and they even included alot of stats from govt testing. Looks like a damned good round on paper and the testing looked promising. I'm surprised this round as not been developed more...

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Link Posted: 5/9/2008 9:05:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ghostface:

Originally Posted By Ndenway:
I'm thinking of the 6x45, I see AR uppers for sale from time to time, some even include dies,

it's a simple case reform from a 223 case, and fire formed to chamber and works in the mags.


High Standard has an ad n SGN for ammo, uppers and I think dies too. I remember reading an article on the 6X45MM in Fighting Firearms ( I think that's what it was in) about how good a round the 6X45MM was and they even included alot of stats from govt testing. Looks like a damned good round on paper and the testing looked promising. I'm surprised this round as not been developed more...


thanks for the info, I had a bolt rifle in 6x45 back in the 80s I picked up for cheap from a buddy, it was a damn decent rifle I let go that I wished I still had,

just figured with the rounds balistics using 85 and 87gr bullets and ability to work well in a AR15 with no mod's other than barrel/loading your own ammo, it'd be the next logical step up from a 223,

I just been damn late everytime I see a good deal on an upper or barrel for sale
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Link Posted: 5/10/2008 7:23:16 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger:
height=8
Originally Posted By Grendelizor: It's unfair to compare his product to what amount to bootleg 6.5 Grendel products, whose defects have been well-documented on my site (reference posts by a guy named LR1955).
John


Interesting, John. Do you remember who happened to have assembled LRs defective upper, that you are subtly implying is a "bootleg"?


I seriously doubt that Grendiliesor wants to go there. I remember. M9

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