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benlineberry
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Posted: 4/11/2007 1:14:49 PM
I'm considering building a left handed upper for the .50 beowulf.

I know I need a Stag lefty upper receiver, bolt carrier assembly, and ambi barrel extension.
I also know I'll have to modify the port on the reciever. Will there be any other mods to consider?

Also, where can I get a .50 beowulf barrel?
bfarrin1
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Posted: 4/11/2007 3:27:29 PM
http://www.saternmachining.com/Barrels.htm

Zapp
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Posted: 4/11/2007 8:49:32 PM
[Last Edit: 4/11/2007 8:57:37 PM by Zapp]

Originally Posted By benlineberry:
I'm considering building a left handed upper for the .50 beowulf.

I know I need a Stag lefty upper receiver, bolt carrier assembly, and ambi barrel extension.
I also know I'll have to modify the port on the reciever. Will there be any other mods to consider?

Also, where can I get a .50 beowulf barrel?


I was considering this for the 6.5 grendel, which would have some of the same issues.

In addition to modifying the receiver, you will need a bolt that doesn't exist right now. The Beowulf/grendel bolt is made specifically for those rifles, and works just with the standard right hand carrier. The left handed bolts for 5.56 stags are different from right handed 5.56 bolts. You would basically need to get those mods done to a beowulf/grendel bolt.


I decided to just shelf the idea. It will require a LOT of time involved to get the parts needed, made.
benlineberry
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Posted: 4/12/2007 9:23:12 AM
Thanks Zapp. That's what I was afraid of.

Besides, you can get a complete upper with 1 magazine for $599, or just the barrel for $455.

Looks like a complete upper is the answer.
Reginhild
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Posted: 4/12/2007 1:15:31 PM

Originally Posted By Zapp:

Originally Posted By benlineberry:
I'm considering building a left handed upper for the .50 beowulf.

I know I need a Stag lefty upper receiver, bolt carrier assembly, and ambi barrel extension.
I also know I'll have to modify the port on the reciever. Will there be any other mods to consider?

Also, where can I get a .50 beowulf barrel?


I was considering this for the 6.5 grendel, which would have some of the same issues.

In addition to modifying the receiver, you will need a bolt that doesn't exist right now. The Beowulf/grendel bolt is made specifically for those rifles, and works just with the standard right hand carrier. The left handed bolts for 5.56 stags are different from right handed 5.56 bolts. You would basically need to get those mods done to a beowulf/grendel bolt.


I decided to just shelf the idea. It will require a LOT of time involved to get the parts needed, made.


Alexander Arms Grendels are made with a bolt that is slightly different from a 7.63x39 bolt. Some other manufacturers such as Competition Shooting Sports use high quality 7.62x39 bolts in their builds. The only difference in putting one together is one of headspacing. If you can find a good quality 7.62x39 bolt for a LH rifle you are good to go.
bfarrin1
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Posted: 4/12/2007 7:13:17 PM
[Last Edit: 4/12/2007 7:14:27 PM by bfarrin1]
That's the way I'm reading the info on the Satern barrels as well. Although it does appear they supply a bolt with the Grendel kits.

I'd get a left hand 7.62 bolt and send it to them for headspacing to be sure.

It is my opinion that you're getting a considerably "better" grade of barrel for your money compared to what AA uses on their factory builds....plus you can get the barrel NOW.

Last I knew everybody was out of complete uppers.

Zapp
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Posted: 4/12/2007 9:10:50 PM

Originally Posted By Reginhild:
Alexander Arms Grendels are made with a bolt that is slightly different from a 7.63x39 bolt. Some other manufacturers such as Competition Shooting Sports use high quality 7.62x39 bolts in their builds. The only difference in putting one together is one of headspacing. If you can find a good quality 7.62x39 bolt for a LH rifle you are good to go.


Unfortunately, a 7.62 LH bolt doesn't exist either. I had considered that option as well, and spoke with some vendors, including Stag, about it a few weeks ago.

If I am going to have to get the bolt modified, I'd just as soon do it to a bolt that would work either for a Grendel or my Beowulf with standard headspace. In his case, if he used a 7.62x39 LH bolt, he'd have to buy/borrow Beowulf headspace gauges to match his barrel to the bolt. And unless he kept the gauges, or made up spare 7.62x39 LH bolts, it would be problematic any time he needed to swap bolts out. I have the Beo headspace gauges, and I still wouldn't try to go the 7.62x39 route. Using the more standard headspacing for the beowulf and AA bolt just seems like a less troublesome route.

If there were enough interest in a LH AA bolt, I might have some avenues to follow in getting them done. I got the Beowulf ammunition gauges made with a bit of persistence(and $$$). But there would have to be several people interested, and willing to accept paying more than a standard bolt because of the custom work required.
infsqdldr
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Posted: 4/13/2007 12:35:40 AM
where would you get a lh extension. youd have to get a stag lh barrel, take off the extension, and put it on a .50 barrel that had not been drilled for the gas port. unless you can get a lh extension from stag. only option for this is ar15barrels, but he is too backed up to do it. my buddy is a lefty and really wanted a lh upper, but barrel options are very limited.
real men shoot bull barrels. its all about the girth.
Zapp
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Posted: 4/13/2007 2:17:18 AM
Centauro97
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Posted: 4/13/2007 10:31:06 AM

Originally Posted By bfarrin1:
It is my opinion that you're getting a considerably "better" grade of barrel for your money compared to what AA uses on their factory builds....plus you can get the barrel NOW.



I'd be interested in hearing the basis for this opinion. I thought AA got their barrels from Lothar Walther, a pretty good source. I'm not sure where Satern is getting the blanks they use. I do see that Satern cut-rifles their barrels, but there are equal arguments for every rifling method used. Just depends on how well they execute the method that seems to matter most.

Since Satern isn't offering a bolt with the Beowulf barrels, that could be an issue.
bfarrin1
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Posted: 4/13/2007 11:32:48 AM

Originally Posted By Centauro97:

Originally Posted By bfarrin1:
It is my opinion that you're getting a considerably "better" grade of barrel for your money compared to what AA uses on their factory builds....plus you can get the barrel NOW.


I'd be interested in hearing the basis for this opinion. I thought AA got their barrels from Lothar Walther, a pretty good source. I'm not sure where Satern is getting the blanks they use. I do see that Satern cut-rifles their barrels, but there are equal arguments for every rifling method used. Just depends on how well they execute the method that seems to matter most.

Since Satern isn't offering a bolt with the Beowulf barrels, that could be an issue.


Well first and foremost in my mind, the barrel in its entire form from stock, is finished in one facility. There isn't anybody else to blame if something is jacked up.

The unknown concerning L/W is how AA is receiving the barrels from them: as a blank? precontoured? prechambered w/extension? Completely ready to go?

Full agreement with you on the execution...

Zapp
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Posted: 4/14/2007 2:08:03 AM
[Last Edit: 4/14/2007 3:08:05 AM by Zapp]

Originally Posted By bfarrin1:

Originally Posted By Centauro97:

Originally Posted By bfarrin1:
It is my opinion that you're getting a considerably "better" grade of barrel for your money compared to what AA uses on their factory builds....plus you can get the barrel NOW.


I'd be interested in hearing the basis for this opinion.


Well first and foremost in my mind, the barrel in its entire form from stock, is finished in one facility. There isn't anybody else to blame if something is jacked up.

The unknown concerning L/W is how AA is receiving the barrels from them: as a blank? precontoured? prechambered w/extension? Completely ready to go?





Your opinion that Satern is considerably better is based on the fact that you don't know anything of AA's barrel manufacturing process?

Almost all of the companies I know of outsource SOME of the manufacturing process. Is Satern mining the ore and manufacturing the steel, to ensure that the metallurgy meets the spec? Then it seems to me that there could still be someone else to blame if something is jacked up, contrary to your statement.

Many, if not most, firearm manufacturers subcontract manufacture of quite a few of their components. That doesn't make them substandard. They have specs that the subcontractors are required to meet, and there is no reason to assume that a part is substandard because it was built out of house.

I would expect that Satern has selected a source for barrel steel in order to meet their quality specs. And in the exact same manner, I would expect that AA has worked with the barrel manufacturer to provide barrels in whatever state of finish to meet their quality spec.

To opine that Satern must be "considerably better" because you think they do more in house is really stretching it.
bfarrin1
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Posted: 4/14/2007 9:06:47 AM
[Last Edit: 4/14/2007 10:07:49 AM by bfarrin1]
Aren't opinions wonderful things?

Just to be clear, I've got no beef with L/W or AA.

As far as taking it to the steel producer, I'm of the belief that nearly every one of the 'premium' manufacturers are using either Crucible or Carpenter barrel steel now.

Anybody who has been involved in any large scale manufacturing event has undoubtedly experienced tolerance stack up. While "in-spec", when everything leans towards the tight end, or leans towards the loose end, sometimes things just don't exactly work the way it was planned.

While this can certainly be an issue with a total "in-house" build, it becomes progressively more of an issue when parts of the build are contracted out. At this point, if the part is in "spec", the contractor is largely off the hook.

I noticed awhile back, with interest, the Beowulf case gauges you're selling. They look nicer than Wilson's, the knurling is a good touch.

Lets just say for a moment, that you're building these yourself(maybe you aren't, I have no idea).

You order the stock, lets say we're using 12L14 for easy machinability(I think that is what Wilson is using). You take them in your garage, lop them off in 4" sections on your bandsaw. Cut the O.D. Knurl. Center drill/ream to .5 on your lathe. Face. Run the reamer in until the go is even with your facing cut, then keep going X (lets just say .005 for the sake of argument) amount. Cut again to rough length on the band saw, or parting tool on the lathe. Flip it around in the lathe and face to desired OAL length. Stand it up on a surface grinder, or possibly a mill and take your cut down the middle for the minimum headspace measurement. Polish/Deburr, make look pretty. Package and ship.

Ok. Now lets contract this out, and for entertainment purposes, lets say we're making enough of these to contract out each and every step to a different contractor. How tight of tolerances can you afford to pay for in each step? .001? .0005? .005? Are your instructions good enough that the contractor who chucks up the drilled stock to ream knows they have to indicate the bore and center the headstock to make sure your chamber isn't as loose as a goose? Are your tolerances tight enough from the supplier beforehand that the next supplier doesn't have to go through the process again with each and every piece? Now think of the purpose you are selling these gauges for...how much tolerance stackup is acceptable? .003 will likely use up half your available headspacing range. Now what happens if the first supplier decides that 12L14 was a little too expensive this week, and decides to feed you some scrap 1018/4140, etc. they had laying around?

When available, I'll always take the part made in its entirety by one entity. Satern must be doing something right if AA licensed them.

Zapp
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Posted: 4/14/2007 2:34:03 PM

Originally Posted By bfarrin1:

I noticed awhile back, with interest, the Beowulf case gauges you're selling. They look nicer than Wilson's, the knurling is a good touch.


Thanks, I am pleased with the end result.


You are making the assumption that the manufacturing process would be different whether it was done by subcontractors or not. What if the manufacturer did it one step at a time? Say they cut the steel to length for each piece, then they cut the OD for each piece. Then put each piece on a lathe and center drilled it, and removed it, repeating this for all parts. Put it back on the lathe to ream it, then removed it, repeating this for all parts... You and I both know there would be more potential problems doing this. But if you are going to assume worst case scenarios on the outsourced, why not also look at worst case for the in house?

Just as I would bet that Satern knows exactly what they are doing. I think it would be equally fair to assume that Bill knows how to handle tolerance issues in manufacturing, and would make sure to handle any potential issues that may arise. Now that could mean that he made sure that one manufacturer(himself or someone else) did X steps all at once to keep the tolerance stacking issues to a minimum.


Tolerance stacking is an issue regardless of whether it is built in house or out of house. Specifications are designed for this purpose.



Originally Posted By bfarrin1:
Now what happens if the first supplier decides that 12L14 was a little too expensive this week, and decides to feed you some scrap 1018/4140, etc. they had laying around?


Then they would not be following the spec, since 12L14 was the spec you mentioned. What if you were doing it all in house, and your purchasing dept. who handled the order decided to substitute 4140 for the 12L14 you called out? They probably wouldn't because on the PO request, you specified 12L14, right? Same issue.




Originally Posted By bfarrin1:
When available, I'll always take the part made in its entirety by one entity. Satern must be doing something right if AA licensed them.


I would agree that it is a good assumption that Satern is doing it right to be licensed by AA. But to assume that AA is NOT doing it every bit as right in their manufacturing, without knowing how they are manufacturing it, doesn't make a lot of sense.
infsqdldr
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Posted: 4/14/2007 3:44:29 PM
i would imagine lw gives aa a completed barrel. the problem with the lw barrels is not the quality or accuracy, but the contour. the gas block dia is not standard, and i would prefer a larger muzzle dia for threading.
real men shoot bull barrels. its all about the girth.
Curlymaple42
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Posted: 4/14/2007 10:30:16 PM
Satern provides a headspaced bolt, barrel extension, and barrel done to what length you want. You need to provide them the gas block and they will install it, so I am guessing they can match the inside diameter of the gasblock to the barrel contour.

That help?