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Posted: 3/29/2007 5:21:59 AM EDT
[#1]
Are there any other signifigant dimensonal differences that deviate from a mil-spec bolt other than the case head recess & chamfer for it? I understand you use a different extractor. I ask this for two reasons. 1. Grendilizor is on record here stating that is a dimensionally larger bolt. I don't consider a larger dia. hole bored deeper to qualify as a larger bolt. 2. I examined one at a Gun show. An AA 24" overwatch upper. I had no mics or scales with me at the gun show, so I'm only going by the MK 1 eyeball, but other than the case head recess & the extractor the bolt looked to me like it was otherwise pretty conventional. Thanks M9 |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 5:36:36 AM EDT
[#2]
I'm not aware that anyone has insinuated that they have. Its my understanding that you keep the pressure low on factory ammo & in published loading data. I would however add the caveat that its kinda of hard to see any long-term metal fatigue failure on weapons for which no ammo is available which has been the case for most of those 3 & 1/2 years of production. And when very limted amounts of sporadic ammo was available the price would preclude most users from any volume ammo consumption. M9 |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 6:11:59 AM EDT
[#3]
We are certainly 100% in agreement on that much. M9 |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 6:17:59 AM EDT
[#4]
Once again 100% agreement. One point most people overlook is the fact that Stoner didn't design this bolt for 5.56. It was designed for the triple duece. Shoehorning the 5.56 in required the shotpeening, 70 K proofing & MPI to try too get this bolt too live with 5.56. A lot of bolts today don't get this extra attention & we are shoehorning even larger ctgs into this dinky little bolt designed to be an airweight triple duece for Air Force security personnel. Airweight was a big fad at this time in histroy. S&W designed the airweight Cheifs special revolvers around this same time. The alloy framed Colt Commanders are also from this era. M9 |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 6:49:43 AM EDT
[#5]
And so let us prostrate ourselves before the great M9, who by remit of his Mk1 eyeball and looking at a gun at a gunshow now surpases all on the knowledge of the Grendel and the like AR15. Give praise to him who by staring upon the item can accurately determine both chemical composition and manufacturer, and who by the very posting of a subject can determine the absolute quantity of ammunition supplied to the market.
Oh great one, please regail us again with your wisdom about the $300 match grade rifle and how the industry is sucking the honest customers dry simply to fulfill the ungodly act of staying in business. As a humble manufacturer I ask your forgiveness for the transgression of proporting to know anything about the item I designed. Granted this boon I will meekly withdraw and swear to no longer darken the doors of this forum nor to doubt the word of M9. So let all those who really wish to know now direct their questions to the all powerful M9. Pray that he grants you the gift of his wisdom and infinite military experience Bill Alexander |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 5:34:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Real intellegent post there. Just exactly what are you claiming too have designed. The weapon looks like Stoners design too me. As far as shoehorning the PPC ctgs into Stoners design goes, American High power shooters were doing that over a decade before you. As far as this case goes, I belive the credit for that goes to Simonov the inventor of the SKS. Of course he was just adapting German technology from the STG44 too available Russian tooling. M9 |
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Posted: 4/12/2007 6:08:48 AM EDT
[#7]
I'm wondering about this myself 4 other reasons. I have a feeling that the AA bolt lugs are 0.011" longer rather than the bolt face being deeper. Wish someone with an AA bolt could provide some dimensions. |
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Posted: 4/13/2007 11:57:19 AM EDT
[#8]
An AA dealer took a bolt out of his rifle & was showing it too me. He was quite open about it. He said it was just a normal 7.62X39 bolt cut deeper to throw off anyone else wanting to chamber this ctg & too require you too come back to AA for replacement bolts. Makes sense when you look at how paranoid & proprietary they are. Its quite a mess since their co-devolper CSS has used both bolts at different times. If you are shooting handloads, just adjust your dies too compensate. Making this situation worse is the fact that 6.5 PPC IMP, headspace guages aren't exactly a stock item for most gunsmiths. Since they are proprietary too. I didn't have any mics with me at the time too verify. But his explanation looked correct to my MK19 eyeball. I have examined several thousand AR bolts. M9
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Posted: 4/23/2007 4:38:30 AM EDT
[#9]
Thanks M9Powell. If the information the AA dealer gave you is correct, then it is obvious that these bolts could not be dropped into a 7.62x39 build with a standard barrel to be used with factory ammo, or you would end up with headspace problems. I'll keep looking for a Colt 7.62x39 bolt or a 7.62x39 L-W ACB. Anyone know of a source for either of these?? |
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Posted: 4/23/2007 5:34:48 AM EDT
[#10]
You could try Ken Elmore at SAW for any Colt products.
Call LWRC for the ACB. Or you could search around the secondary markets to see if you can find a Colt bolt in 7.62x39. If it were me, I'd use any decent bolt from a known manufacturer that I could find easily available, and be able to shoot and enjoy the rifle, while I look around for a better one. None of these bolts are going to last forever anyway. |
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Posted: 4/23/2007 7:14:36 AM EDT
[#11]
Hi Tom, I still need a couple of carriers too. And I've got my heart set on the MGI modified M-16(FA) carriers. Are any available yet? |
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Posted: 4/23/2007 7:22:48 AM EDT
[#12]
Anyone have phone numbers for Ken Elmore at SAW? I contacted LWRC. They just redesigned the ACB and are waiting (about 9 months) for the required unobtainium to make them. I asked the person I got on the phone if they'd sell me one of the old style. They promissied to check and call me back, but never did. So Ken Elmore at SAW is my best shot, if I can get a phone number. I still have some time because my MGI upper (with M-4 feed ramps) hasn't shipped yet. |
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Posted: 4/23/2007 7:35:17 AM EDT
[#13]
We are still working on the carrier matter, and have made some good progress. We decided a while back that instead of modifying existing carriers, we'd go right to one of the largest carrier manufacturers, who makes them for alot of companies, and have our special carriers made from scratch, instead of modifying. This has moved along now, and we are supposed to receive an unhardened "pre-production" sample this week for measuring and approval. Assuming that it specs out correctly, we'll give the go-ahead for manufacturing of the carriers, and they should be in stock in about a week after we approve the sample. The first batch is slated to be AR15 carriers, followed up by a batch of M16 carriers. I know you are waiting for the M16 carrier, and alot of other people are too. I tried to push for the first batch as M16 carriers, but I was over-ruled. It shouldn't be long now for the M16 carriers, anyway, but I tried to push the issue for you and the other guys. |
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Posted: 4/23/2007 1:11:48 PM EDT
[#14]
I really like the openess & honesty that the MGI rep is giving you here. I think thats a very good sign. The carrier you are waiting for, whats better about it than a std GI carrier? Colt & FN M16 carriers are readily avaible. There is a dealer in Shotgun news that even has new Colt M16 carriers removed from new unissued Demil (Destroyed) M16s. SARCO used too sell the best of all, the original M16 non-A1 or A-anything. These didn't use Foward assist & aren't scalloped for it, so they are a little heavier than normal. Thats good. But sadly I think they are presently sold out. With them though sold-out is probrably not true. They are notirious for finding a few left buried in the warehouse a few years after selling out. I think they do this on purpose. When they find a few more in a couple of years expect the price too go north. M9
PS It just dawned on me. You need the MGI carrier that is hogged out for the AK mag. I understand the reason for it. But I don't consider anything that lightens the carrier good. The carrier needs to be heavier not lighter. In your situation though I guess its mandantory. I'd definatly prefer the M16 version over the semi version. The semi versions are an unessasary multilation that should never have been invented. The approach he says they are going would definatly be the best. Get it machined before hardening, then hardened, rather than take an existing carrier & remachine it, thus exposing the softer core. |
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Posted: 4/23/2007 8:22:26 PM EDT
[#15]
The cuts MGI makes on the bottom of the carrier to clear the AK-47 mag lips removes very little metal. The weight removed is probably not measurable. I too like a heavy carrier. That's why I'm waiting on MGI's "M-16" carrier, instead of getting their "AR-15" carrier. Yes, Tom seems to be one of the very best reps around. Of course, since many here know that, he sells out of the things I need a lot. Too bad that when you find a good rep like this that it never stays a secret long. 
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Posted: 5/11/2007 12:29:39 AM EDT
[#16]
I still need a Colt or L-W 7.62x39 bolt. Can anyone give me phone numbers for Ken Elmore at SAW? Or any contact information for Ken Elmore at SAW? |
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Posted: 5/11/2007 2:47:33 AM EDT
[#17]
www.specializedarmament.com/pages/support_contact.html |
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Posted: 5/11/2007 5:10:51 AM EDT
[#18]
I got notice last night that the M4-ramped QCB uppers are on the way to us via UPS from the production shop. You'll be getting your upper soon. Modified M16 carriers are still delayed, but we're working on that. |
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Posted: 5/11/2007 9:29:41 AM EDT
[#19]
How did I miss this thread all this time?
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Posted: 5/11/2007 9:32:02 AM EDT
[#20]
Thanks Amphibian, I work in Saudi Arabia and all internet access here is controlled by gov't servers. The URL you listed is blocked. But I've got a VOIP internet phone with a Houston area code. So if you can post the phone number for SAW, I can call. |
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Posted: 5/11/2007 9:53:03 AM EDT
[#21]
Thanks Tom, That's great news. If Marty's not too busy right now, maybe he will be able to open up the ejection port to .458 SOCOM dimensions and forward it to me while I'm home on leave. I'll be there in a little less than a month. |
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Posted: 5/12/2007 9:33:34 AM EDT
[#22]
.. Double post
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Posted: 5/12/2007 12:51:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Order Status and General Questions: [email protected] (480) 940-7397 ext 10 |
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Posted: 5/13/2007 5:41:33 AM EDT
[#24]
Thanks Shotgun1, I'll give them a call first thing Monday morning. |
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Posted: 5/14/2007 9:43:03 AM EDT
[#25]
Well, I'm still striking out finding a bolt.
I contacted Specialty Armament this morning, and they do not now, and have never, had any of the 7.62x39 specific AR15 parts. I also contacted Leitner Wise and ACB's in any caliber are on the back burner for the forseeable future. I plan to keep looking for a Colt bolt as long as I am also waiting for MGI full auto carriers to become available. I need 2 of each. So if anyone has a colt 7.62x39 bolt to sell, or knows who does, please post. |
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Posted: 5/15/2007 12:50:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Well the real truth be known. I was OldJoe over on the 6.5 Grendel forum, but because of differences with Bill Alexander and John (Grendelizer) over bolts, I just received this: OldJoe, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system? 2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation. Seems I join M9Powell in telling the truth and how John just bans the truth tellers for Master Bill. Well John, ban this. M9 has been right all along. Number one thing is Bill lies about the 6.5 Grendel, a lot!! The truth is the AR15 can't handle the 6.5 Grendel without eventually buiting bolts, be them 7.62x39 or AA super tough special steel super heat treated nitro specials. But Bill won't tell you this, at least about his bolts. Goodbye to a few of the good friends I made there. JFA |
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Posted: 5/15/2007 2:53:49 PM EDT
[#27]
Bullshit and you know it. The guy was using an unapproved and untested load that he designed with computer software and destroyed a 7.62X39 bolt which was never licensed as a Grendel bolt by the designer. I guess you did not see the ejector marks on the back of the case, which is a sign of over-pressure. How can you accuse Bill Alexander of lying when the bolts breaking are the ones that he did not approve of and insisted that people not use them?? It seems to me that this shows that Bill was right, after all. If you're going to build a Grendel AR, then build it the right way with a Grendel bolt. If you're going to handload, then go by the factory data released from AA and don't concoct your own recipe. |
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Posted: 5/15/2007 3:49:26 PM EDT
[#28]
I'm the one that first pointed out too hot of a load and also stated that if there are ejector marks on the case, that is a sign of hot loads. You missed the point, which is, doesn't matter whose bolt, that load would have broke it. Like I also stated the port pressure may be higher then needed. |
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Posted: 5/15/2007 4:19:58 PM EDT
[#29]
Bad form JFA, I read your comments over on 65grendel not only were they out of line, and incendiary in nature you also had zero evidence to back up your statement above. As Bill stated in his response on the thread in question there have been nearly zero bolt failures with bolts that were built by AA specifically for the 6.5 G. Truth is JFA the AR15 platform handles the 6.5 G just fine if you don't overload the Grendel by handloading irresponsible loads. As your so fond of saying if you want something faster go buy a 260 Rem. |
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Posted: 5/15/2007 4:50:38 PM EDT
[#30]
45k psi is max for the 7.62x39 bolt face with a normal AR bolt.
Working pressures for 7.62x39 ammo range from 43k - 45k psi. Handloading for pressures over that will decrease bolt life. Live by that, or break bolts. Your choice. |
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Posted: 5/15/2007 5:02:48 PM EDT
[#31]
Curt, Heh.....Nobody knowes what I know, or even who I am, alone you sir. |
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Posted: 5/15/2007 7:10:09 PM EDT
[#32]
I apologize for the lack of knowledge on the question, but...
What happens when an AR bolt breaks? I've always thought as ARs as quality weapons, and I've never heard of bolts breaking on firearms before except for low serial number springfields. |
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Posted: 5/15/2007 9:35:39 PM EDT
[#33]
The two lugs flanking the extractor usually break off. The AR bolt with eight small lugs is a different animal than a two-lug Mauser design. As such, they are more susceptible to overpressure rounds. So, compared to bolt guns, I suppose it's a more common occurrence in the AR world. Sometimes it indicates inferior workmanship. Sometimes it indicates irresponsible handloads, even if the weapon is quality. Search the main discussion area for broken bolts. John | 6.5 Grendel: World's Best Combat Cartridge | |
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Posted: 5/15/2007 11:03:41 PM EDT
[#34]
So genuine 6.5 Grendel bolts have 8 lugs now? The one I have in my AA upper only has 7 lugs. Come to think of it, all the hundreds of other AR-15 bolts I have ever seen only had 7 lugs too. Do you know something that I don't? Perhaps you forgot that the extractor does not act as a lug.
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Posted: 5/16/2007 2:00:29 AM EDT
[#35]
O.K.,
This thread keeps devolving into a Grendel thread. It is about seeking the best, highest quality, strongest bolt for 7.62x39 AR15's that is actually available. The Grendel bolts may be the highest quality and strength on the planet, but they are dimentionally incompatible with standard AR15 7.62x39 barrels due to having different bolt face depth. There is no way around the fact that they will yield incorrect headspace in this application. So let's quit fighting about Grendel bolts in this thread. The L-W ACB would probably be the best, but it is not available for the foreseeable future. The Colt, with it's shot peening, proof testing, and magnafluxing, is probably a close 2nd. But I have not been able to find any source that actually has any or plans to have any in the future. So they are also unavailable. Are there any other superior quality 7.62x39 AR15 bolts, or are all others Colt material, design, and dimensions less the critical shot peening, proof testing, and magnafluxing steps? If so, what are they and where can I order a couple? |
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Posted: 5/16/2007 7:30:47 AM EDT
[#36]
curlymaple42 said on the Grendel forum: All it really does is make us believe that he really had it out for the 65G all along and is hired by some competitor or something. What a wingnut.
First I'm not a wingnut and I might add not a suckass to the Grendilizor. Yes I do have a 6.5 Grendel and I enjoy it as you well know shooting cast bullets better with it then a lot of you shoot jacketed with you Grendels. No, I am not working with or for anyone. I'm just sick and tired of how arrogantly Bill puts down anyone else's bolts. Do you see a torture test yet between his bolt and the others Curly? You won't either, Bill just goes on claiming they are stronger, just like John claims the AA bolt has 8 lugs. Oh, he just got his facts wrong you say. Okay for him, but not me huh? What was that you said about proof reading to me one time Curly? I'm abrasive huh, tell that to the terrorists, that our wonderful soldiers and Marines are fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq and see if it helps any. |
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Posted: 5/16/2007 7:43:42 AM EDT
[#37]
There's .11 difference in headspace between the AA bolt and the Colt style 7.62x39. Not to sound abrasive, as I'm sometimes quoted, but WHOOPIE DING. Ever heard of adjusting your resizing die? That's how minute difference that .11 is. |
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Posted: 5/16/2007 8:34:47 AM EDT
[#38]
Not to be nitpick, but I will anyways to keep this technically correct. There is 0.011" (or so I hear) difference. You missed a '0' and that's a very important '0'. As an idea of how much 0.011" is, there is typically 0.003" to 0.004" difference between "go" and "no-go" gauges with the "field" being another 0.003" to 0.004" longer. So, that 0.011" difference is roughly THREE TIMES the total allowable specification variance in a typical chamber. It's still probably within spec for an AK though as some of us know how loose those things run... Lengthen the firing pin 0.010" and have-at-it with all the steel cased ammo you can find. It would probably be just fine. 
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Posted: 5/16/2007 8:45:01 AM EDT
[#39]
Yup, I missed the .0, but you know where I was coming from. To do it right one would have to remove the barrel extension and reset the headspace for the bolt being used.
I was just trying to make it known what the differences were between the two bolts and that it's not something magical, as far as headspace. The AA bolts extractor is more heavier duty and the bolt face is recessed. |
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Posted: 5/16/2007 8:49:24 AM EDT
[#40]
Which throws the gas port and FSB alignment out the door. You don't wanna go there. I've been there and it's ugly.
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Posted: 5/16/2007 8:59:17 AM EDT
[#41]
I have to agree. Can we drop the "use a Grendel Bolt" talk. It's a really, really bad plan. Either live with dangerously long headspace and bad accuracy (might as well give up and join the AK bunch). Or spend big bucks trying to reset the barrel headspace and then never be able to replace with the correct bolt when the Grendel finally wears out. Surely there are some actual, honest to goodness, 7.62x39 AR bolts of quality somewhere? |
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Posted: 5/16/2007 9:01:25 AM EDT
[#42]
That is most certainly true. Sure makes it appear that once stuck with an AA bolt, always stuck with it. Kinda has a planned ring to it don't you think? |
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Posted: 5/16/2007 9:03:22 AM EDT
[#43]
You do realize that by going to a 7.62X39 chambering, that you HAVE joined the AK bunch right...  That being the case, you should not be expecting accuracy. And that 0.011", probably not going to matter with steel cased ammo that you won't be reloading. Just think of it as a machine gun. Those run a LOT more headspace. |
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Posted: 5/16/2007 9:06:28 AM EDT
[#44]
Randall, what if the port is of incorrect size that it sends entirely too much pressure back into the carrier/bolt/piston assembly? What type of harmful things start to emerge? Please list all that you can think of. Especially interested in what effect, if any, this can have on the bolt lugs.
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Posted: 5/16/2007 9:13:08 AM EDT
[#45]
Excessive gas into the gas system makes the bolt try to unlock before the cartridge case has de-obturated.
I can't actually think how this would cause a bolt problem though. Perhaps you know more and are just testing me? Have you read through my how it works thread? I talk about how the gas system works both under-gassed and over-gassed there. The 7.62x39 is likely to be a different critter though. With it's case body having more taper, I don't think it would have nearly as much chamber wall adhesion because of obturation. I think that it would probably unlock just fine and eject without the problems we see of the more straight-walled 5.56. The biggest thing you will see with too much gas will be the excessive recoil. You can mitigate this somewhat with a heavier buffer to slow down the unlocking and soak up some of the energy that would have otherwise just hit the end of the receiver extension (that's the buffer tube for the un-washed). |
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Posted: 5/16/2007 9:24:55 AM EDT
[#46]
No, not trying to test you. Yes read you how it works and that is a good piece. What I'm getting at is if too much pressure going back to th system having anything to do with adding too much stress to the already burdened bolt lugs on the 6.5 Grendel. as you know I own a 6.5 Grendel and I discussed with you before about running a carrier weight on it. What you don't know Randall, is I did try that weight and it made absolutely no difference, that I could detect in firing or examining the eject case. Further more I've done a lot of cast bullet shooting with the rifle and even very anemic loads functioned the rifle. I found this not to be true when shootin cast from my 5.56 AR15...you had to achieve a certain loading to fully cycle the bolt. Bottom line is I feel the 6.5 Grendel may have more then what is needed port pressure. |
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Posted: 5/16/2007 9:32:12 AM EDT
[#47]
JFA, my comments over on 65G were directly related to this:
"Heh.....Nobody knowes what I know, or even who I am, alone you sir" Saying things like that just makes you wonder sometimes, correct? As I also said over there, unlike M9, you actually DO shoot a 6.5G, and shoot it a lot and with success, from what you have said. I never questioned your knowledge, just how you went about displaying it. I do appreciate your help with .45-70 cast loads and the like. Thanks for being a wealth of information. Too bad things played out the way they did. Carry on with the 7.62x39 talk! Sorry to input crap here. |
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Posted: 5/16/2007 9:32:21 AM EDT
[#48]
Put an adjustable gas tube on it, and see if you can dial it down. |
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Posted: 5/16/2007 9:36:53 AM EDT
[#49]
+1. Or an adjustable gas block if you can find one with a 0.907" bore.
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Posted: 5/16/2007 9:42:50 AM EDT
[#50]
Don't confuse pressure with volume. The pressure is a relatively fixed value while the port diameter (or an adjustable gas block/tube) meters the VOLUME of gas and therefore the TIME until a pressure threshold is met within the bolt carrier. It's the meeting of this pressure threshold that allows the carrier to start moving and eventually unlock the bolt. I know what you are saying when you speak of too much pressure, but it all really relates back to port size. Seeing as how the Grendel seems to be made with longer barrels in mind, I suspect that most powders are slightly slower than we are used to in 5.56. The additional case capacity and bore volume allow for this, but you still have to drill the port in the barrel in such a manner that the action will run properly. There's always a compromise when deciding on a gas port size. You need to be big enough that ANY load will function in ANY conditions (debris in the action, weather, elevation) but not so big that you TOO MUCH gas getting into the gas system. An adjustable gas system gives you the best of both worlds. You can tune the action down for minimal function with a specific load. ETA: About those bolt lugs... The pressure in the carrier bears directly against the BACK of the bolt, thereby reducing bolt thrust. |
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