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6.5 Grendel FAQ (Page 1 of 9)
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Posted: 3/2/2006 11:21:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2014 10:37:52 AM EST by Forest]
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Link Posted: 3/2/2006 7:43:29 PM EST
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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 12:50:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 10:37:15 AM EST by Grendelizor]
BLACK HILLS 6.5 GRENDEL FACTORY AMMO FOR LES BAER CUSTOM

Black Hills Ammunition loads the 6.5mm 123gr Sierra MatchKing.










WOLF 6.5 GRENDEL FACTORY AMMO

Wolf Ammunition has released two of a planned three loadings in 6.5 Grendel. The first two loadings are a 6.5mm 123gr hunting Soft-Point and a 120gr Multi-Purpose Tactical (MPT) OTM. Wolf's third 6.5 Grendel loading will be steel-cased with a 110gr FMJ, which will be similar to a scaled up version of the Russian 5.45mm 7N6.


















6.5 GRENDEL BALLISTICS GRAPHS

I've now created some charts for 16" barrels comparing the 6.5 Grendel to other combat cartridges.










Previously, I posted some charts comparing Black Hills 6.5 Grendel 123 SMK to Black Hills match loads in 5.56 and 7.62. Both those loads have military counterparts, Mk262 and M118LR, which are loaded hotter. This new set of charts makes that comparison, and also throws in Alexander Arms' new 130 Swift Scirocco load, which could be a useful penetration load for LE, in addition to the obvious hunting use.

I'm struck how similar all three MatchKing trajectories are, that should simplify the training for those adding 6.5 Grendel capability to their toolbox.








INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIED 6.5 GRENDEL VELOCITIES

The following data is from David Fortier's 6.5 Grendel article on page 55 of Guns & Ammo's Book of the AR15 2006.

90 Speer TNT

14.5 bbl = 2686 fps
16 bbl = 2760 fps
24 bbl = 2978 fps

123 Lapua Scenar HPBT (BC .547)

14.5 bbl = 2486 fps
16 bbl = 2505 fps
24 bbl = 2650 fps

Fortier's data was derived using an Oehler 35P chronograph 15 ft from the muzzle, 40 degrees F, 100 ft above sea level.


6.5 GRENDEL GEL TEST REPORT

Ballistic gelatin testing of select 6.5 Grendel loadings was performed this past Monday, May 8, 2006, and I've finally got my hands on the results. I've waited two years for this! CentCom tested one 6.5 Grendel load in August 2004, but, apparently, didn't feel the need to release the results for civilian or commercial use.

Alexander Arms contracted this latest round of gel tests from Speer Law Enforcement representatives in order to have these tests serve as an experimental "control" for ballistics gelatin tests performed by other entities.

Speer performed these tests according to the standard F.B.I. Protocols, as well as their standard in-house procedures. They use 6 x 6 x 16" blocks of ten percent ballistic gelatin, calibrated with a BB. It is interesting to note that Speer uses green dye instead of red to better delineate the temporary and permanent cavities; we conjecture it's for "politically correct" considerations.

Alexander Arms tested four loads: (1) 120 Norma FMJ, (2) 120 Sierra MatchKing (SMK), (3) 123 Sierra MatchKing (loaded by Black Hills Ammunition for Les Baer Custom), and (4) 90 Speer TNT. All tests were performed using production Alexander Arms Tactical 14.5 and Tactical 16 M4-style carbines at ranges of 50 and 100 yards. Here is a summary of the results:


120 Norma FMJ



The 120 Norma FMJ, above, penetrated 16.5" before veering out the side of the block and impacting the support frame. No fragmentation was evident, but the slug is believed to have tumbled at about the 7" mark, with the maximum permanent cavity at the 11" mark. Lesions of more than 6" were created on the top and bottom block surfaces. The Alexander Arms Tactical 14.5 was used in the three 120 Norma FMJ photos shown here. Range: 50 yards. Impact velocity: 2405 fps.



Another shot of the 120 Norma FMJ.



Close-up of 120 Norma FMJ.


120 Sierra MatchKing



The 120 Sierra MatchKing penetrated 3.25" before yawing and fragmenting. The Alexander Arms Tactical 16 carbine was used in the three 120 SMK photos shown here. Range: 100 yards. Impact velocity: 2383 fps. (Velocity from 24" test barrel was 2660 fps @ 49,800 psi.)



Maximum penetration of the 120 SMK was 19.5", maximum permanent cavity diameter was more than 6" with lesions running to block exterior surfaces. Depth to the maximum permanent cavity was 7.5". Bullet fragmented, with seven large pieces visible within the block. Jacket sections came to rest at 11.75" and 16.25", and the bullet core at 19.5".



Close-up of 120 SMK penetration neck before yaw.


123 Sierra MatchKing



The 123 SMK penetrated 2.25" before yawing and fragmenting. The Alexander Arms Tactical 14.5 carbine was used in the three 123 SMK photos shown here. Range: 50 yards. Impact velocity: 2385 fps. (Velocity from 24" test barrel was 2650 fps @ 49,500 psi.)



Maximum penetration of the 123 SMK was 16.2", maximum permanent cavity diameter was more than 6" with lesions running to block exterior surfaces. Depth to the maximum permanent cavity was 7". Bullet fragmented into multiple small fragments with jacket pieces visible at 11" and 13". Small core fragment was visible at maximum depth of 16.2"



Close-up of 123 SMK penetration neck before yaw.


90 Speer TNT



The 90 Speer TNT performed as expected for a varmint bullet.


Auto Glass



Entry hole of the 120 SMK through auto glass.



Impact of 120 SMK into ballistic gelatin after passing through auto glass.


Summary

These tests demonstrate the flexibility of the 6.5 Grendel cartridge in tactical scenarios. Each loading is a tool designed to perform a certain job. If you need penetration, use the 120 Norma FMJ. If you need a general-purpose tactical OTM with decent penetration of intermediate barriers yet with very good fragmentation, use the 120 SMK. If you want a long-range bullet that shoots like the 123 Lapua Scenar yet exhibits very early and explosive fragmentation, call for the 123 SMK.

It's interesting that the 123 SMK, a bullet that rivals the 123 Lapua Scenar with its .547 BC, also proved to be the most violently fragmenting round of those tested (well, not counting the TNT). We had been led to believe that bullets that perform extremely well at long range would perform poorly at CQB in MOUT. However, testing now shows that the 123 SMK provides wicked fragmentation at CQB ranges with twice the lead mass of 5.56 NATO, as well as shooting flatter and drifting less than 7.62 NATO out to 1000 yards. This capability in one loading truly makes the 6.5 Grendel a unique tool in the AR15/M16/M4 tactical toolbox.

I will update this report as more data comes in. It's unfortunate that the Wolf 6.5 Grendel ammunition did not arrive in time to test, so that will also have to wait until later.

John

==================================

ALEXANDER ARMS 6.5 GRENDEL CARBINE MODELS

Alexander Arms has just released two tactical models, the Tactical 16 (T16) and the Tactical 14.5 (T14). The T16 is a midlength rifle and the T14 is basically an M4 carbine clone chambered for the 6.5 Grendel.




For those of you who haven't heard of the 6.5 Grendel, it's a relatively new 6.5x39 cartridge based roughly on the Russian 7.62x39. It was designed to give AR10 ballistics in an AR15 package. Originally designed around a 123gr Lapua Scenar (.547 BC) launched at 2610 fps in a 24" barrel, it can shoot flatter and drift less in wind at 800 yards than 7.62 M80, M852, and M118LR. This might be of interest to designated marksmen and also those who want a light machinegun which can get on fleeting targets fast, at long range.

Not to be limited to long-range offerings only, these latest Grendel rifles package the 6.5 Grendel in carbine format. Both rifles come standard from the factory with an M4-type stock, A2 grip, and an option of either clamshell or Midwest Industries railed handguards. The T14 has an extra option of a clamshell handguard modified with three rail sections at the 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions.




Flat-top receivers are mil-spec anodized.

Barrels are chrome moly vanadium with mil-spec chrome lining. Barrel profiles are basically M4, with an OD of .730" under the handguards, .750" under the gas-block (barrels are parkerized under the gas-block), and .730 at the T14 muzzle and .740 at the T16 muzzle. Both have grenade cut-outs.

The 6.5 Grendel, being a larger caliber, requires a larger threaded barrel dimension than 5.56. Barrels are threaded at 9/16-24, which allows standard 5.56mm flash hiders to be reamed and rethreaded for 6.5mm with common tooling. The T16 has a standard A2 birdcage, fully removable. The T14 has a lengthened A2 birdcage, permanently silver-solder attached, which gives a total barrel length of 16.1".

Both models have an F-stamped A2 front sight tower which is dowel-pinned. Alexander Arms both parkerizes under the gas-block and drills the gas-port hole before chroming, resulting in "chrome-through" of the gas-port.

MSRP for the Tactical 16 upper is $579.

MSRP for the Tactical 14.5 upper is $595 (price reflects the extra steps for the permanently attached flash hider).


AMMUNITION PHOTOS

Below is a size comparison of 7.62 NATO, 6.5 Grendel, and 5.56 NATO.




Compare a 5.56 NATO 62-grain bullet with a 6.5mm 144-grain Lapua FMJBT.




Alexander Arms currently produces four factory loads: (1) 123 Lapua Scenar, (2) 129 Hornady SST, (3) 120 Nosler Ballistic Tip, and (4) 90 Speer TNT. They are shown sectioned below, along with a 144 Lapua FMJBT. The "sweet spot" for bullet weight in the 6.5 Grendel case is around 120 grains, of which many, many 6.5mm bullets are available, but the cartridge exhibits its built-in flexibility by handling a wide range of common 6.5mm competition and hunting bullets from 90- to 144-grains.




At SHOT Show 2006, Wolf Ammunition announced their plans to produce 6.5 Grendel. Wolf's 2006 catalog in PDF format can be downloaded here: www.wolfammo.com/Wolf_Ammo_Catalog2006.pdf.




What's ammunition without magazines? Also at SHOT 2006, Alexander Arms debuted their new 26-round C-Products stainless steel, coated 6.5 Grendel magazines.




RIFLE PHOTOS






Note the barrel profiles below.




John
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Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:27:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 8:29:07 AM EST by OverBored]
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Link Posted: 3/15/2006 8:10:27 PM EST
What am I missing here in this data from a Glocktalk Black Rifle thread? It seems to me that the Grendel is superior to the 6.8 Rem SPC across the entire range spectrum from 0 to 1,000yds.

Range(yds)      Vel(fps.)      ft/lbs.     drop(ins.)    drift(ins.)
6.5mm Grendel 123 grain Lapua Scenar (reload)

0 2450.0 1639.1 -1.5 0.0
100 2295.8 1439.3 0.0 0.71
200 2147.1 1258.9 -5.1 2.94
300 2004.0 1096.7 -17.76 6.85
400 1866.9 951.7 -39.09 12.6
500 1736.1 823.0 -70.4 20.38
600 1612.5 710.0 -113.27 30.39
1000 1210.3 400.0 -441.73 96.43

6.8mm SPC 110 grain V-Max (reload)

0 2539.0 1574.3 -1.5 0.0
100 2308.4 1301.3 0.0 1.02
200 2089.8 1066.6 -5.05 4.26
300 1883.8 866.6 -18.08 10.08
400 1691.6 698.8 -40.95 18.87
500 1515.8 561.1 -76.02 31.06
600 1359.5 451.4 -126.27 47.08
1000 987.0 237.9 -559.03 150.8
Also, why does the 6.8 group have a sticky on the AR15 Discussion link but the 6.5 group only have one under AR Variants? With the Wolf Ammo coming out for the 6.5 rather than the 6.8, seems like you should be on the AR15 Discussion page too.
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Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:12:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 6:12:57 PM EST by septic-tank13]

Originally Posted By COSteve:
With the Wolf Ammo coming out for the 6.5 rather than the 6.8, seems like you should be on the AR15 Discussion page too.



+1

i don't suppose you know the barrel length for these comparisons do you?
of course, i could be full of shit...
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Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:15:44 PM EST
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Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:10:28 AM EST
Anyone know who's doing the machining on the Alexander Arms uppers and lowers? Is it done in house or is it farmed out? Same question regarding barrels?
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Link Posted: 4/1/2006 9:44:43 PM EST
Austin, Alexander Arms uppers and lowers are manufactured to strict tolerances by a household name in American industry. Sorry, but actual names of sources represent a competitive advantage. Carbine barrels are manufactured for AA by a well-respected defense contractor known for their high-quality machine-gun barrels.

If your concern is whether or not Alexander Arms products are quality, fear not.

John
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Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:34:17 PM EST
I heard someone was giving away free Grendels?
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Link Posted: 4/4/2006 7:20:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
Austin, Alexander Arms uppers and lowers are manufactured to strict tolerances by a household name in American industry. Sorry, but actual names of sources represent a competitive advantage. Carbine barrels are manufactured for AA by a well-respected defense contractor known for their high-quality machine-gun barrels.

If your concern is whether or not Alexander Arms products are quality, fear not.

John



Thanks or the info. I was just curious if they were machined in house. I do know who's making the barrels and I think you might call them a "defence" contractor....
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Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:51:08 AM EST
Voltron, that must be the same someone that's giving away free 2006 Jaguar S-types! If you find someone like that, sign me up!

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Link Posted: 4/4/2006 11:16:20 AM EST
I sure will!!! BTW Grendolizer, do you work for Alexander Arms? I was wondering how someone actually joins the firearm industry. It would be a dream job for me :) Anyone know what kind of education someone needs to get into that? Or connections? Or maybe if youre named after the defender of the universe from a popular 1980's childrens action cartoon?

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Link Posted: 4/4/2006 2:54:57 PM EST
Voltron, nope, sorry, I don't work for Alexander Arms so can't help you with an "in" to the gun industry. I'm a hunter, a gun nut, a militaria buff, and a Photoshop guy for an ad agency by trade.

I've always thought the U.S. military should have adopted a general-purpose military cartridge such as the British .280 instead of 5.56 NATO back in the 1950s. When the 6.5 Grendel came to my attention in a Shotgun News article by David Fortier around September 2003, I recognized it as the perfect modern-day incarnation of a general-purpose military cartridge and created a website dedicated to it (www.65grendel.com) in February 2004 in the hope that the U.S. military would take a serious look at the new round.

I sort of made it my personal crusade to promote the 6.5 Grendel, but it was my own initiative and not as someone who has received any compensation in any way from Alexander Arms. Though we've never met personally, Bill Alexander has appreciated my support (which I am happy to do for the sake of this cartridge concept and, ultimately, for the effectiveness of our troops), so I guess I do have access to a little bit of the "inside scoop."

John
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Link Posted: 4/5/2006 10:54:25 AM EST
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Link Posted: 4/24/2006 9:07:28 PM EST
Recent article on 14.5" Grendels:

www.gunblast.com/65Grendel.htm
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Link Posted: 4/26/2006 1:00:30 PM EST
For you Grendel Aficionados who like live-action, here's a little movie clip I made: AA Tactical 14.5 Movie.

My apologies in advance to those for whom it will not run. We've had some trouble on many computers where I first posted it on www.65grendel.com, and the current technical feedback is that one needs the latest Quicktime 7 to run it.

John
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Link Posted: 4/28/2006 10:10:02 AM EST
It seems like most 50 Beowulf and 65 Grendel discussion has left this board and migrated to
www.65grendel.com
and
www.50beowulf.com
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Link Posted: 4/29/2006 9:00:51 AM EST
Grendel and Beowulf owners are still here but for the little detail stuff it makes sense to go to the specialised boards rather than post here and get a bunch of "well it serves you right for buying the wrong caliber" attitude, with nothing really constructive.

The general discussions of the calibers seem to be well suited to this board and when conducted at a mature level are a very good source of information for anyone who is considering getting into another AR caliber.

Update

The 26 round mags are shipping late next week and the Wolf samples are due in now. If they are as specified production will start as soon as the e-mail hits. Ammo prices look to be working out at $7/box but should drop for case volumes.

Bill Alexander
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Link Posted: 5/16/2006 9:36:51 AM EST
Is the eject port enlarged on the 6.5G upper?
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Link Posted: 5/16/2006 10:04:58 AM EST
Yes.
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Link Posted: 5/16/2006 10:22:04 AM EST
Is there a source for 6.5G uppers only, or would I have to buy a barreled upper?
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Link Posted: 5/17/2006 9:44:58 PM EST
KC, sorry, but at this time AA is only making complete uppers, and not parts.

John
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Link Posted: 5/20/2006 9:14:38 PM EST
Grendelizor.....Will Sabre Defence or AA offer an SPR profile 18" midlength gas tube
Chrome moly vanadium chrome lined...or a 16" midlength with a medium profile and no grenade launcher
steps?...

tia
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Link Posted: 5/22/2006 6:56:41 PM EST
Doc, AA is planning to fill out their model lineup, and I'd say an 18" is near the top of the short list at this time.

I don't know if an 18" would still have the grenade cut-outs; I wouldn't think so. At first I complained about them on the 16" because I didn't like the "look." And I guess I still prefer it "clean." But Bill A. says that in his testing the cut-outs relieved barrel stress, improved the harmonics, and thus assisted accuracy. Form follows function, I guess.

John
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Link Posted: 5/24/2006 4:06:00 PM EST

Bill A. says that in his testing the cut-outs relieved barrel stress, improved the harmonics, and thus assisted accuracy. Form follows function, I guess


Ah ha! Method to his madness....thanks for the info...I thought it was all about marketing...without
a practicle reason...

Live long enough and ya learn something...


thanks much...
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Link Posted: 7/17/2006 3:18:18 PM EST
Redding is offering 6.5 Grendel reloading die sets. Their cartridge code number for the 6.5 Grendel is #478. Their product number for a standard two-die set is #80478.

A good source of Redding dies is here.

John

==========
6.5 Grendel: Hits with Twice the Lead of 5.56; Shoots Flatter Than 7.62
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Link Posted: 7/18/2006 8:08:27 AM EST
From Redding on the Grendel dies - 7/17/06:

The tooling has been ordered for both. I'd estimate it'll still be
10-14
weeks before dies are ready to ship.

Regards,

Patrick T. Ryan

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Link Posted: 7/18/2006 1:22:24 PM EST
Is there something wrong with the Lee dies that AA and CSS sales?
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Link Posted: 7/18/2006 2:03:27 PM EST
There is nothing wrong with the Lee dies, but the Redding dies can be set up to size the case necks less aggressively for longer case life.
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Link Posted: 7/25/2006 1:18:10 PM EST
Tag for when I have time to read this.
Would John Wayne be having this conversation?


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Link Posted: 8/5/2006 11:07:03 AM EST
Like any other conversion, the non standard parts are barrel, bolt and mags correct? I think I'm getting me a 6.5 upper.
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Link Posted: 8/5/2006 11:49:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vinesr6:
Like any other conversion, the non standard parts are barrel, bolt and mags correct? I think I'm getting me a 6.5 upper.


Yep. The barrels for sale come with a proper barrel extension, so that is covered. Per Bill Alex in another thread here, you just want to be sure that your receiver ejection port is at the high end of spec. At the low end, you might have problems, but at the high end, should be a-ok.

Good shooting!!
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Link Posted: 9/16/2006 1:12:34 PM EST
I'm watching with interest what Wolf does. Checking with MidwayUSA and Natchez, it seems that the cost of a 1000 brass casings is about as expensive as buying the upper.(?)

I'm looking for another caliber of AR and am debating between the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC. Neither is going to be cheap to shoot, but currently the 6.8 has a large advantage in available brass/bullets. I reload so it's not a huge deal until you check the prices.

I'm looking for a long range gun, something to shoot for target and maybe take a deer or two with. Not really a blaster, I have a .223 for that. I like the ballistics of this (6.5) round, but the cost is scary!

Is there a cheaper source for components?
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Link Posted: 9/20/2006 7:05:23 AM EST
Arne of Competition Shooting Sports posted on my website about his new 15-round 6.5 Grendel magazines:


These magazines are 1.75 inches shorter than the 26-round magazines so they are perfect for highpower rapid fire and for people who will do shooting off the ground or off a bench that find the maximum capacity magazines too long for practical use.

These are made by Creative Products and are heat treated stainless with the blue anti-tilt followers.


I believe the purpose of these ($26.95 each) is to give a magazine that is no longer than the pistol-grip to aid in shooting prone or off the bench. Give Arne a call and enjoy!

John

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Link Posted: 9/21/2006 12:56:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rcd567:
I'm watching with interest what Wolf does. Checking with MidwayUSA and Natchez, it seems that the cost of a 1000 brass casings is about as expensive as buying the upper.(?)

I'm looking for another caliber of AR and am debating between the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC. Neither is going to be cheap to shoot, but currently the 6.8 has a large advantage in available brass/bullets. I reload so it's not a huge deal until you check the prices.

I'm looking for a long range gun, something to shoot for target and maybe take a deer or two with. Not really a blaster, I have a .223 for that. I like the ballistics of this (6.5) round, but the cost is scary!

Is there a cheaper source for components?
.

I'm a 6.8 SPC guy, if your going for long range 400+ get the Grendel it has way better energy retention at those ranges. Right now the ammo for 6.8 SPC out of a 16" barrel is 2500-2600, lower than what was originally stated as 2700+. I wish they revise the SAAMI specs so it really can shoot 2700+ reliably. But that's for another discussion.
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Link Posted: 9/21/2006 11:38:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By CTT2: If you're going for long range 400+ get the Grendel


True, but don't forget that anything the 6.8 can do at shorter ranges the 6.5G can also do. It's simply ballistics, no magic needed. That way you get everything in one package, both short and long range.

John

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Link Posted: 9/21/2006 4:54:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:

Originally Posted By CTT2: If you're going for long range 400+ get the Grendel


True, but don't forget that anything the 6.8 can do at shorter ranges the 6.5G can also do. It's simply ballistics, no magic needed. That way you get everything in one package, both short and long range.

John

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Yep it was originally designed to surpass 5.56 at close to med range, at 200 yrds it has the muzzle energy of 5.56. At 0-400 I would choose 6.8 over the 6.5. 400+ I'll stick to my Rem 700 in .308 or .300 win mag.
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Link Posted: 10/3/2006 7:19:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By CTT2:

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:

Originally Posted By CTT2: If you're going for long range 400+ get the Grendel


True, but don't forget that anything the 6.8 can do at shorter ranges the 6.5G can also do. It's simply ballistics, no magic needed. That way you get everything in one package, both short and long range.

John

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Yep it was originally designed to surpass 5.56 at close to med range, at 200 yrds it has the muzzle energy of 5.56. At 0-400 I would choose 6.8 over the 6.5. 400+ I'll stick to my Rem 700 in .308 or .300 win mag.


I have a Rem 700 in both .308 & 300WM...

I'll take a 6.5 Grendel over both for specific missions.

An AR15 running the 6.5G offers alot to offer in a Long range package. It holds it's own with the mighty .308 out to 1000 yards, all in a standard AR15, semiauto package. The 6.8 simply isn't in the same class.

Of course I'd choose one of my bolt guns for certain tasks...

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Link Posted: 10/10/2006 3:02:53 PM EST
I am having a very hard time finding factory ammunition for the 6.5 Grendel. Everyone I can get in touch wiht is waiting for the ammunition to arrive. I would specifically like to have a case of 120 grain Nosler. When I ordered my first lot from Midway, I had to settle for the 123 grain. Does anyone know if there is a shipment of ammunition coming? Every time I check, the order has been bumped back another week or two.
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Link Posted: 10/10/2006 6:58:00 PM EST
So is the 19.2" barrel the closest to 20's you get?


Im basically after a 20" govt profile like my .223 to make a hunting/general purpose upper.

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Link Posted: 10/14/2006 3:55:39 PM EST
TX65,

Clarify something. You said the bore was .2638" and the land diameter was .256" It's my understanding when a barrel is made a hole is drilled, then reamed, and sometimes honed and that is the "bore". Then the rifling is put in by various methods such as cutting, button rifling, broached, and hammer forged. The rifling cuts diameter is then known as the "groove" diameter. The part of the bore that is left after the rifling is put in thus becomes the "land" tops. So wouldn't, in you measurements, .2638 be the groove diameter and the .256 be the land diameter?

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Link Posted: 10/18/2006 11:49:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By IchWarrior:
So is the 19.2" barrel the closest to 20's you get?


Im basically after a 20" govt profile like my .223 to make a hunting/general purpose upper.



I'm glad to see somebody else sharing my preferences on the Grendel boards every so often.
I'm waiting for a complete 18" or a 20" Grendel rifle or upper in a military style myself....just like their current 14.5" or 16" upper offerings. My thinking is that the Grendel deserves a longer barrel then 16" to fully utilize it's superior balistics. Their current bald barrel upper offerings look like a circumsized post ban '94 Colt sporting AR15 .....Not my idea of an assault rifle. And who wants to gamble by paying top dollar for some gunsmith to maybe be able to transform one into the rifle you want? Not me.

I'm patient......got my cash in hand, and I'll just keep waiting. I already bought a lower just in case the wait is all the way up into the next ban.
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Link Posted: 10/20/2006 1:35:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2006 1:37:43 PM EST by Grendelizor]
Note that I've added a brief photo essay to my main FAQ post (the third on the first page) regarding the upcoming Wolf 6.5 Grendel ammo.

John

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Link Posted: 10/21/2006 8:25:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2006 8:27:26 AM EST by M9Powell]

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
Note that I've added a brief photo essay to my main FAQ post (the third on the first page) regarding the upcoming Wolf 6.5 Grendel ammo.

John

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Nice pics Grendelizor, In your summary, you state that the ammo caused excess copper fouling & that a cleaner burning powder was requested. A cleaner burning powder won't correct excess copper fouling. You or they 1 have a mixup. A cleaner burning powder will help with powder fouling residue. If the problem really is copper fouling ( which I doubt due to the grendels low velocity & the smoothness of Lothar Walther barrels) It'll take either a different jacket for the bullet, a smoother bore, or a reduction in velocity too cure it. You might want to check on this obivious error & correct your post.

Also you have the best photo I've seen yet of a loaded Grendel mag. Congradulations on your photography skills. It is very clear to a skilled eye, that that mag is from a 5.56 stamp. That is to be expected. The stamps to build these mags are very expensive & an application such as this would not have enough volume to repay the cost of a new stamp. I'd expect problems with battered bullet noses, though I'd wager a guess that it feeds well due to the thinner guage metal & what appears to be reduced depth of the alignment & stacking grooves. Will a GI speedloader fit the back groove? Alas no one is building a true 6.5 Grendel mag yet. Pity. Overall a very nice update thanks. Just a couple of minor points. M9
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Link Posted: 10/21/2006 9:25:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By M9Powell: A cleaner burning powder won't correct excess copper fouling. You or they have a mixup. . . . You might want to check on this obivious error & correct your post.


I'm sure the mix-up is mine. I do know it had something to do with the powder, but I will check on it.


It is very clear to a skilled eye, that that mag is from a 5.56 stamp. . . . I'd expect problems with battered bullet noses. . . . Alas no one is building a true 6.5 Grendel mag yet. Pity.


Sigh. M9, you are incorrect. The geometry on these magazines has been changed to be Grendell-specific. I don't suppose you'll take my word for it. I guess you could call Barry at CProducts and discuss the technical aspects of it with him, but I don't suppose you'd take his word for it because, of course, you have "skilled eyes."

So, yet again, you've managed a snarky little cheap shot at the Grendel project concealed in an "objective" review, and no one can tell you different. It was for this kind of behavior that I banned you from my site.

John

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Link Posted: 10/21/2006 11:11:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By M9Powell:

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
Note that I've added a brief photo essay to my main FAQ post (the third on the first page) regarding the upcoming Wolf 6.5 Grendel ammo.

John

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Nice pics Grendelizor, In your summary, you state that the ammo caused excess copper fouling & that a cleaner burning powder was requested. A cleaner burning powder won't correct excess copper fouling. You or they 1 have a mixup. A cleaner burning powder will help with powder fouling residue. If the problem really is copper fouling ( which I doubt due to the grendels low velocity & the smoothness of Lothar Walther barrels) It'll take either a different jacket for the bullet, a smoother bore, or a reduction in velocity too cure it. You might want to check on this obivious error & correct your post.

M9


I think you need to study a little more and post a little less. You quote with absolute conviction that powder cannot contribute to copper fouling but I doubt, that as with many aspects of weapon design, you grasp little more than that confered on you by the internet.

Please be advised that the formulation of a powder can have a major bearing upon the amount of jacket material fouling from any given projectile. I do not have either the time or patience to educate you in this matter and very much doubt that you have the skill or interest to believe anything you are shown, but for those who are reading this thread it is a common practice to adjust the flame temperature of the powder via the geometry and also to use addative chemicals to mitigate copper fouling in modern rifle barrels. A good example of such work is Alliant 10x.

What we found in testing the Wolf ammunition was that the Wolf projectiles did not foul when used with common powders such as those given in our reloading tables. Equally projectiles such as the 120 Sierra would foul excessively if loaded on the ball propellant from Wolf. In the light of this we are changing the powder formulation.

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Link Posted: 10/21/2006 11:53:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2006 11:53:58 AM EST by OverBored]
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Link Posted: 10/22/2006 11:25:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By VaniB:

Originally Posted By IchWarrior:
So is the 19.2" barrel the closest to 20's you get?


Im basically after a 20" govt profile like my .223 to make a hunting/general purpose upper.



I'm glad to see somebody else sharing my preferences on the Grendel boards every so often.
I'm waiting for a complete 18" or a 20" Grendel rifle or upper in a military style myself....just like their current 14.5" or 16" upper offerings. My thinking is that the Grendel deserves a longer barrel then 16" to fully utilize it's superior balistics. Their current bald barrel upper offerings look like a circumsized post ban '94 Colt sporting AR15 .....Not my idea of an assault rifle. And who wants to gamble by paying top dollar for some gunsmith to maybe be able to transform one into the rifle you want? Not me.

I'm patient......got my cash in hand, and I'll just keep waiting. I already bought a lower just in case the wait is all the way up into the next ban.


When you find such a treat, IM me ASAP! I'd probably free float mine for a little better accuracy, but I like how my .223 Govt profile is for weight and accuracy. I could probably even do without free floating for some time.
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Link Posted: 10/23/2006 12:02:40 AM EST
IchWarrior,

A lot of folks have a short memory about the 10 year period between 1994 and 2004.
Collapsable stocks and pistol grips were replaced with thumb hole stocks. Flash supressors were replaced with bald barrels, and bayo lugs were shaved off of the bottom of every FSB.

Why should I do that to myself when the government will soon enough do it to me again.
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Link Posted: 10/23/2006 12:17:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2006 12:51:03 AM EST by VaniB]
IchWarrior,

BTW,
I've seen plenty of 5.56 and 6.8 SPC Model 1 uppers exactly the way I would want one. But, a Grendel 6.5???....I'll just say to be patient.

You want to hear an amusing story about being patient and how it can pay off?......

In the mid 1970's I visited a gentleman by the name of Earl Keller in Evansville Indiana who manufactured a brass frame Century 45-70 Revolver. It was one of those limited custom made guns that was on the cover of Guns & Ammo Magazine. Mr. Keller told me that he gave the actual Guns& Ammo Cover Gun to none other then gun guru himself, Mr. "Heck I Was There" Elmer Keith. (Elmer Keith was on the Guns & Ammo staff at the time.) Mr. Keller was the nicest gentleman, inviting us to his home, and taking the time to show my wife and I the town of Evansville Indiana. Well, he put me on his waiting list to receive one of his revolvers, and then bid us a safe 700 mile drive back home. I contacted him about every 6 months to remind him that I was still waiting, and to ask the status of my gun and how production was coming along. I waited years in hopes of receiving that note from Mr. Keller and Century Arms to inform me that my gun was at last ready. Instead, you know what I finally got in the mail 7 years later?....I got a mass mailed form letter to tell me that Keller had croaked!!....and that the company now had a different name, and that I was welcome to send the new owner a deposit and continue to wait for the gun. To this day I still have the 30 year old Poloroid shot of my then 20 year old wife holding that 45-70 revolver in Mr. Keller's den. I haven't heard from the new owner of the Century 45-70 revolver in about 23 years now...

...but heck.....

I'm patient.

Oh....the moral of the story is that sometimes patience DOESN'T ALWAYS PAY OFF because death and old age can come faster then the gun you always wanted.

....I'll let you know if I hear anything about new production 18" or 20" Grendels being ready for us.


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