Knight's Armament ("KAC") SR-15 - NOT Compatible with XM193 (Federal/Lake City)!!!!

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Knight's Armament ("KAC") SR-15 - NOT Compatible with XM193 (Federal/Lake City)!!!! (Page 1 of 10)

Posted: 6/5/2017 6:47:39 PM EDT

THREAD SUMMARY (All of this is actually in the thread and probably what you came for):

1) KAC made and sold a defective rifle (and admitted they did so, in this thread, eventually on page 8). I had at least 7 malfunctions in less than 900 rounds.
2) When I initially called KAC to report the problems, KAC's rep ("Bill") claimed the malfunctions were due to XM193 ammo.
3) KAC's rep (Bill) did NOT offer to bring in the rifle for review/repair.
4) I began this thread.
5) KAC eventually weighs in (after many, many views) saying their rep provided bad information to me (I'm still not convinced and think he may have actually been 100% honest), and at long last offers to bring rifle in for repair. They only made this offer after I began this thread.
6) KAC also admits that 10% of their products that come back in for repair are due to Manufacturer's defect (aka not due to user error, gunsmithing or magazines).
7) KAC doubles down on the fact that they do not recommend shooting XM193 out of their KACs as it is prone to causing malfunctions in their rifles. So keep that in mind when you're buying a KAC rifle.
8) I sent the defective upper back to KAC.
9) KAC receives the rifle, inspects it, and determines that they did, in fact make and sell a defective rifle. But, they did not phone me or send me an email with this information.
10) KAC starts digging into my personal life via Linkedin (and perhaps other avenues) without discussing with me.
11) KAC refuses to return upper to me directly to me and insists on going through Vendor, even though I sent upper directly to KAC. They told my retailer that "they were upset about [this thread]" so they refused to send it back to me directly.
12) Even though KAC has by now determined that it was their own defective rifle, KAC's Adam Pini returns to the thread and suggests that the problem with the upper was a "purchased part." Apparently, by purchased he meant "produced by a Knights contractor that was purchased by Knights and sold as part of the "Knights Armament" product.
12) KAC's Jack_L follows up by saying it was a problem with the Bolt Carrier/Gas Key that was manufactured by a Knights Armament contractor for Knights, but for which they do not have adequate quality control processes in place.
13) KAC is now documented as having manufactured, sold and shipped a defective upper receiver. Further, they also have gone on record that if you want to use a Knights rifle, you shouldn't expect it to shoot XM193 reliably.
14) All of this could have been handled without a single forum post, but for KAC's continued spreading of misinformation and mismanagement of issues.

Original Post.
I recently purchased a KAC SR-15 E3 Mod 2 AR-15. After a quick familiarization (250-400 rounds) and cleaning, I took it to a training course this weekend. We shot between 750-900 rounds (for the whole class. I shot about 480-500 with the KAC). During those 500 rounds, I had about 7 double feeds. I was exclusively using XM193 ammo (Federal/Lake City). I called Knights this morning to get their take on the malfunctions. Imagine my surprise when they said that the firearm does not work with XM193, and they strongly recommend against it. Let me say that I was pleased that a) I was able to speak with someone quickly at Knight's, and b), he was cordial, especially as I expressed my disbelief and asked him to repeat things just so I could make sure I understood him correctly.

I mean, seriously? The Knight's rep recommended using PMC Bronze (which is lower pressure) out of the SR-15 (which was apparently designed with the M855/M855A1 ammo in mind). He reiterated that the Knight's rifles are designed for military purposes and then what's left over is for the rest of us. What I do not understand is why Knight's doesn't emblazon their website (at least the civilian portion) with info that says: NOT COMPATIBLE WITH XM193!!!!. I thought the point of buying a KAC was to have the ultimate in reliability (in addition to the design benefits/quality). I like most of the design benefits. However, I can't (and you shouldn't) trust this rifle. I don't know anyone that exclusively stocks PMC Bronze for their AR-15s.

And Knight's needs to make it plain that their rifles are as sensitive as snowflakes about the ammo that they can shoot.
In other news, if anyone wants a KAC 14.5" upper that may get you killed, let me know. I have one for sale.

Posted: 6/5/2017 7:00:34 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
I recently purchased a KAC SR-15 E3 Mod 2 AR-15. After a quick familiarization (250-400 rounds) and cleaning, I took it to a training course this weekend. We shot between 750-900 rounds. During that time, I had about 7 double feeds. I was exclusively using XM193 ammo (Federal/Lake City). I called Knights this morning to get their take on the malfunctions. Imagine my surprise when they said that the firearm does not work with XM193, and they strongly recommend against it. Before I start deriding the rifle, let me say that I was pleased that a) I was able to speak with someone quickly at Knight's, and b), he was cordial, especially as I expressed my disbelief and asked him to repeat things just so I could make sure I understood him correctly. Now, onto the derision. . . .

I mean, seriously? The Knight's rep recommended using PMC Bronze (which is lower pressure) out of the SR-15 (which was apparently designed with the M855/M855A1 ammo in mind). He reiterated that the Knight's rifles are designed for military purposes and then what's left over is for the rest of us. What I do not understand is why Knight's doesn't emblazon their website (at least the civilian portion) with info that says: NOT COMPATIBLE WITH XM193!!!!. I thought the point of buying a KAC was to have the ultimate in reliability (in addition to the design benefits/quality). I like most of the design benefits. However, I can't (and you shouldn't) trust this rifle. I don't know anyone that exclusively stocks PMC Bronze for their AR-15s.

And Knight's needs to make it plain that their rifles are as sensitive as snowflakes about the ammo that they can shoot.
In other news, if anyone wants a KAC 14.5" upper that may get you killed, let me know. I have one for sale.

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Damn man, that just sucks, someone will come up with a fix for it I am sure.

Posted: 6/5/2017 7:34:23 PM EDT

[#2]

Will it shoot M193?

Posted: 6/5/2017 7:41:28 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
I recently purchased a KAC SR-15 E3 Mod 2 AR-15. After a quick familiarization (250-400 rounds) and cleaning, I took it to a training course this weekend. We shot between 750-900 rounds. During that time, I had about 7 double feeds. I was exclusively using XM193 ammo (Federal/Lake City). I called Knights this morning to get their take on the malfunctions. Imagine my surprise when they said that the firearm does not work with XM193, and they strongly recommend against it. Before I start deriding the rifle, let me say that I was pleased that a) I was able to speak with someone quickly at Knight's, and b), he was cordial, especially as I expressed my disbelief and asked him to repeat things just so I could make sure I understood him correctly. Now, onto the derision. . . .

I mean, seriously? The Knight's rep recommended using PMC Bronze (which is lower pressure) out of the SR-15 (which was apparently designed with the M855/M855A1 ammo in mind). He reiterated that the Knight's rifles are designed for military purposes and then what's left over is for the rest of us. What I do not understand is why Knight's doesn't emblazon their website (at least the civilian portion) with info that says: NOT COMPATIBLE WITH XM193!!!!. I thought the point of buying a KAC was to have the ultimate in reliability (in addition to the design benefits/quality). I like most of the design benefits. However, I can't (and you shouldn't) trust this rifle. I don't know anyone that exclusively stocks PMC Bronze for their AR-15s.

And Knight's needs to make it plain that their rifles are as sensitive as snowflakes about the ammo that they can shoot.
In other news, if anyone wants a KAC 14.5" upper that may get you killed, let me know. I have one for sale.

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Sucks. If the barrel is .223 wylde or 5.56 I don't see why it wouldn't run. Maybe the feed ramps just need a polish. Fresh feed ramps sometimes gouge the casings.... I see more often than not, people paying for the big name parts in the AR world, turn to bite them in the butt. In another recent thread, someone bought a $300 basic forged receiver set from, Wilson combat, that was out of tolerance. It shouldn't happen at all with the big time companies, but you'd be amazed how much of their parts arent made in house. Most of it just gets their stamp and a major upcharge.

Posted: 6/5/2017 7:48:58 PM EDT

[#4]

That's bizarre.

I've shot 10K of M193 between 3 SR15s with zero issues.

Posted: 6/5/2017 7:55:09 PM EDT

[#5]

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Sucks. If the barrel is .223 wylde or 5.56 I don't see why it wouldn't run. Maybe the feed ramps just need a polish. Fresh feed ramps sometimes gouge the casings.... I see more often than not, people paying for the big name parts in the AR world, turn to bite them in the butt. In another recent thread, someone bought a $300 basic forged receiver set from, Wilson combat, that was out of tolerance. It shouldn't happen at all with the big time companies, but you'd be amazed how much of their parts arent made in house. Most of it just gets their stamp and a major upcharge.

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Maybe I'm not fully understanding what you're saying, but would "rough" (for lack of a better term) feed ramps cause double feeds? I think it's an extraction/gas problem, but I'm VERY open to other ideas . . .

As far as in-house mfg. . . I have no idea with Knights. There's enough "uniqueness" to the lower and the gas system that makes it less likely (in my mind) that they fully subcontract that out, but I actually think that makes it worse. There's no one else to blame it on if they're doing the production (side note - I also (but was not the poster you referenced) had a "matched" Wilson forged upper/lower that was out of spec. It hardly "matched" because the upper was not right. . . glad to know I wasn't the only one . . . I'm with you on that one, I don't think that's an in-house WC manufactured product).

Posted: 6/5/2017 8:00:26 PM EDT

[#6]

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Quoted:
That's bizarre.

I've shot 10K of M193 between 3 SR15s with zero issues.

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I thought so, too - a $2K gun that can't digest reasonable quality ammo. I thought Knight's response was more bizarre, though. Poor guy must of thought I had a hearing problem the way I kept on rephrasing my question in the hopes that he would somehow give me a different answer than, "Our rifles are temperamental, sensitive, moody snowflakes. . . .but if you just don't tell them anything they don't want to hear (PMC Bronze), you'll be o.k." He even said that though they were designed for m855, they don't recommend it for the rifle. Awesome.

Posted: 6/5/2017 8:06:26 PM EDT

[#7]

I would think doublefeeds would be a magazine issue, not ammo related.

Posted: 6/5/2017 8:23:12 PM EDT

[#8]

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I would think doublefeeds would be a magazine issue, not ammo related.

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This.

That being said, the rep was full of crap. If it's designed for military ammo, that would be XM193 pressure, not PMC Bronze. I would call again and demand to speak to another rep.

Posted: 6/5/2017 8:25:47 PM EDT

[#9]

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I would think doublefeeds would be a magazine issue, not ammo related.

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I did, too (My initial post had more details, but I was limited to 2K characters, so I had to delete). Because I had so much (misplaced) confidence in the KAC, I actually destroyed the first magazine that gave me trouble (a Magpul P-Mag . . . in almost new condition, labeled "DRS-4"). I don't take chances and I destroy bad magazines so I don't ever accidentally use them if and when it would really count, so one of my classmates put a nice 22 caliber hole through the magazine that actually pushed and cut the spring through the same hole . . . I wonder what the chances of that happening again are). After double feeds 2 and 3, though, I started to think it was other things. The instructor thought it was a weak extractor (not knowing it was basically a new rifle). . . and cursed the proprietary nature of the KAC extractor when he found out we couldn't replace the springs with standard springs.

The Knight's representative was immediate with his assertion that it was the XM193 - it was the first question he asked and he jumped on it right away when I told him the ammo I was shooting. One of the puzzling things he said was that it was "commonly known" that KAC and XM193 don't function together. I looked and didn't see a lot of info on that. I also asked why their website didn't indicate the same. He said that he would send a note to their web developers with a request to update the site. Great for future customers, bad for people like me with a $2,000 paper-weight.

Do we think the "SR" "SR-15" stands for "Semi-Reliable" or "Speculatively-Risky"?

Posted: 6/5/2017 8:30:33 PM EDT

[#10]

Tag to hear what the KAC squads got to say.

Posted: 6/5/2017 8:32:44 PM EDT

[#11]

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Quoted:

Maybe I'm not fully understanding what you're saying, but would "rough" (for lack of a better term) feed ramps cause double feeds? I think it's an extraction/gas problem, but I'm VERY open to other ideas . . .

As far as in-house mfg. . . I have no idea with Knights. There's enough "uniqueness" to the lower and the gas system that makes it less likely (in my mind) that they fully subcontract that out, but I actually think that makes it worse. There's no one else to blame it on if they're doing the production (side note - I also (but was not the poster you referenced) had a "matched" Wilson forged upper/lower that was out of spec. It hardly "matched" because the upper was not right. . . glad to know I wasn't the only one . . . I'm with you on that one, I don't think that's an in-house WC manufactured product).

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Shit, disregard. Didn't read the "double" lol. In that case, it seems more of a mag issue, but I don't see why KAC only recommended PMC bronze to fix that issue. Check the tension of the mag feed lips. Fill up a mag and shake it to see if and carriages fall out with ease. The best way I can suggest to see if it's gas/extraction issue, is to insert one round in the chamber. If it extracts and locks the bolt back, then it should be good. Try it like 10 times.

forged receivers are from another company, which work exclusively in casting/forging etc. It's usually a $50 receiver that gets sold to all these other branded companies to put their stamp and get $100 added to the price. Who knows how much QC is done. billets parts are usually made in-house. Im sure thier proprietary parts are made in-house as well...But let's stay on topic with the KAC feed issue.

Posted: 6/5/2017 8:40:14 PM EDT

[#12]

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$2,000 paper-weight.

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One reason i take time to build my own. I know these guys have a name, but duds do trickle through. I like to be my own QC.

What sucks is there's people with $400 Andersons that I'm sure can run that ammo. It's bs and that reps gave you a b.s. answer.

Posted: 6/5/2017 8:43:44 PM EDT

[#13]

that's total bullshit, its so bullshit its even hard to believe.

Posted: 6/5/2017 8:49:29 PM EDT

[#14]

Ship it in OP, I have shot thousands upon thousands of rounds of m193 through multiple SR15's with zero issues. Did you try any other mags except for pmags? Sounds like a mag issue.

Posted: 6/5/2017 9:07:56 PM EDT

[#15]

Is this a factory 14.5 SBR or an upper you dropped on another lower?

Posted: 6/5/2017 9:10:09 PM EDT

[#16]

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Will it shoot M193?

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The thread is literally titled "SR-15 not compatible with M193" and then you ask if it works with M193. Really?!

Posted: 6/5/2017 9:13:23 PM EDT

[#17]

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Is this a factory 14.5 SBR or an upper you dropped on another lower?

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It's a full KAC rifle. I may have confused you by saying my "upper was for sale". I said that because I still like the lower (and am assuming it has nothing to do with the malfunctions), and would hang onto that.

Posted: 6/5/2017 9:16:04 PM EDT

[#18]

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The thread is literally titled "SR-15 not compatible with M193" and then you ask if it works with M193. Really?!

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Are you reading the thread? he stated it shot 900 rounds of M193 with a handful of double feeds. Whether its the ammo, the extractor or the magazines has yet to be determined.

Posted: 6/5/2017 9:19:26 PM EDT

[#19]

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It's a full KAC rifle. I may have confused you by saying my "upper was for sale". I said that because I still like the lower (and am assuming it has nothing to do with the malfunctions), and would hang onto that.

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Just making sure you're running the 14.5" buffer and not the 16" buffer.

Posted: 6/5/2017 9:27:13 PM EDT

[#20]

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Just making sure you're running the 14.5" buffer and not the 16" buffer.

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Roger that. The firearm does have a KAC marked buffer, and I only used that buffer.

Posted: 6/5/2017 9:41:10 PM EDT

[#21]

@KAC_Sales
@Jack_L

ETA: Being honest, OP, this entire thing smells like BS. M193 is 5.56 pressure just like M855. A gun "designed" to run M855 should run M193 just the same. I have heard of KAC rifles having issues with weak ammo like PMC Bronze, but I've never heard anyone reccomend using weaker ammo as a fix to malfunctions with a KAC rifle. Something smells funky with this story, just not sure which part.

Posted: 6/5/2017 9:58:31 PM EDT

[#22]

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Roger that. The firearm does have a KAC marked buffer, and I only used that buffer.

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Pic

Posted: 6/5/2017 10:39:11 PM EDT

[#23]

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Quoted:
@KAC_Sales

ETA: Being honest, OP, this entire thing smells like BS. M193 is 5.56 pressure just like M855. A gun "designed" to run M855 should run M193 just the same. I have heard of KAC rifles having issues with weak ammo like PMC Bronze, but I've never heard anyone reccomend using weaker ammo as a fix to malfunctions with a KAC rifle. Something smells funky with this story, just not sure which part.

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Long Range Precision is what I really enjoy, so I'm familiar enough with pressures to know that they can be affected by many things: powder, powder temp, powder charge weight, barrel temp, barrel length, barrel lubricity, projectile weight, etc., etc. But, since I don't shoot it, I also know mostly nothing (except steel core, 62 gr) about M855. So when the rep said that the M855 was what the SR-15 was supposed to use, I had to say I was surprised, but also not equipped to do much more than ask for further explanation.

Im hoping KAC will weigh in here if they have some additional useful info. I'd be interested to see if they themselves say that their rep was full of it. All I can say at this point is that I'm down one PMAG, got my butt whooped in the final "fun" competition during the course since I had to clear double feed #7, and what the rep told me this morning.

Edit: and if they do say their rep was full of it, there will be an accounting to be had since I've spent a considerable amount of time on this now.

Posted: 6/5/2017 11:05:35 PM EDT

[#24]

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that's total bullshit, its so bullshit its even hard to believe.

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This.

Posted: 6/5/2017 11:12:59 PM EDT

[#25]

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Quoted:

Long Range Precision is what I really enjoy, so I'm familiar enough with pressures to know that they can be affected by many things: powder, powder temp, powder charge weight, barrel temp, barrel length, barrel lubricity, projectile weight, etc., etc. But, since I don't shoot it, I also know mostly nothing (except steel core, 62 gr) about M855. So when the rep said that the M855 was what the SR-15 was supposed to use, I had to say I was surprised, but also not equipped to do much more than ask for further explanation.

Im hoping KAC will weigh in here if they have some additional useful info. I'd be interested to see if they themselves say that their rep was full of it. All I can say at this point is that I'm down one PMAG, got my butt whooped in the final "fun" competition during the course since I had to clear double feed #7, and what the rep told me this morning.

Edit: and if they do say their rep was full of it, there will be an accounting to be had since I've spent a considerable amount of time on this now.

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Yes, lots of variables can effect pressures, but nothing is going to effect M193 so much that it won't reliably cycle a gun when M855 would (barring something crazy going on).

If the gun is specifically designed to run 5.56 pressure ammo, M193 is going to be a hell of a lot closer in similarity to M855 than PMC Bronze is going to be (it's regarded as one of the weakest brass cased .223 loads available for purchase).

Either you got bad info or something else is going on. Would you happen to know who you spoke to in CS over there?

ETA: I sent you a PM.

Posted: 6/5/2017 11:13:37 PM EDT

[#26]

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This.

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Wait....you're not questioning my honesty, I hope. Maybe I missed your original intent - that the explanation the rep gave was ridiculous. When I reread, it seems like you may be questioning my honesty. I hope not.

Posted: 6/5/2017 11:18:03 PM EDT

[#27]

I don't remember his name. I spoke with a lady first and wasn't able to get my full story out before she stopped me and then transferred my call.

We also discussed the PVS-30 refurb program they have going on right now. He confirmed and even added a good bit of useful info on that subject. The guy seemed credible.

Posted: 6/5/2017 11:38:24 PM EDT

[#28]

@Jack_L

Posted: 6/6/2017 1:39:26 AM EDT

[#29]

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Quoted:
Wait....you're not questioning my honesty, I hope. Maybe I missed your original intent - that the explanation the rep gave was ridiculous. When I reread, it seems like you may be questioning my honesty. I hope not.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
This.

Wait....you're not questioning my honesty, I hope. Maybe I missed your original intent - that the explanation the rep gave was ridiculous. When I reread, it seems like you may be questioning my honesty. I hope not.

I'm just agreeing with the depiction of what was shoveled your direction.

Posted: 6/6/2017 1:44:51 AM EDT

[#30]

but my Roomates 159$ PTAC upper cycles it all...

My 3k$ rifle is SUPERIOR!!! but...it only shoots certain ammo

Not an advocate for PTAC but seriously, a very pricey rifle should cycle it all.

Posted: 6/6/2017 1:55:08 AM EDT

[#31]

Are you sure you called the right company?

I don't own a KAC, but have used several different ones and they've all run various flavors of M193 flawlessly.

Posted: 6/6/2017 2:31:42 AM EDT

[#32]

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but my Roomates 159$ PTAC upper cycles it all...

My 3k$ rifle is SUPERIOR!!! but...it only shoots certain ammo

Not an advocate for PTAC but seriously, a very pricey rifle should cycle it all.

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OMG, someone reported that one rifle made by a certain company is having malfunction issues! They all must be crap!

Seriously, this is so far outside the norm for KAC that it's nearly unbelievable. You'd have picked up on that if you bothered to read any of the rest of the replies in this thread. If it's even an issue with the rifle, I'm positive they'll get it fixed.

Posted: 6/6/2017 2:43:37 AM EDT

[#33]

Both of my SR-15s run great with M193.

Posted: 6/6/2017 9:23:54 AM EDT

[#34]

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[b]...... If it's even an issue with the rifle, I'm positive they'll get it fixed.

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To paraphrase Top Gun (Maverick talking to Charlie when she says that the Pentagon sees to it that she knows more than he does):

"well, ma'am, it doesn't seem so in this case, now does it?"

I'm not a bridge burner, but I shouldn't have to call more than once to get an issue resolved. As I sit here, the score is: I have an expensive but unreliable rifle. I called KAC and they (promptly and cordially) diagnosed it as an ammo issue. Most of you all are reacting EXACTLY as I did: disbelief (see my notes about making him repeating things because I was sure I wasn't hearing him correctly. Y'all didn't have the benefit of being a party to that conversation.

I still have an unreliable rifle.

Posted: 6/6/2017 9:27:15 AM EDT

[#35]

Posted: 6/6/2017 9:51:38 AM EDT

[#36]

Can you better describe your double feed?

Two fresh rounds, both partially inserted into the chamber with the fired case ejected?

Fired case still in the chamber fresh round jammed into the back of it?

Fired case extracted and above partially fed fresh round?

Fired case stove piped out the side?

Posted: 6/6/2017 10:20:25 AM EDT

[#37]

So I will touch on a few points here.

1. Can KAC rifles handle Mil-Standard Ammo
Yes 100% absolutely they can

2. Do we recommend XM193/M193
Generally we don't. There are no current Mil contracts for "XM193/M193" ammunition. At this point its simply a "product name" that companies use to sell lower cost ammunition. QC on most XM193/M193 has been thrown out the window. This leads to over pressured ammunition, popped primers, brass deformations, and lowered accuracy standards.

3. We do test all SR-15's with PMC Bronze
The reason for this is two fold. First is the consistently round to round, case to case, and lot to lot is exceptional. Its that happy middle ground in terms of velocity & pressure. Secondly is the availability of PMC in the commercial market place.

Hope this helps. Please let me know if you need us to bring your upper in for inspection. Ill get you an RMA and a Call Tag, if you want.

Posted: 6/6/2017 10:30:59 AM EDT

[#38]

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2. Do we recommend XM193
Generally we don't. There are no current Mil contracts for "M193" ammunition. At this point its simply a "product name" that companies use to sell lower cost ammunition. QC on most XM193 has been thrown out the window. This leads to over pressured ammunition, popped primers, brass deformations, and lowered accuracy standards.

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This makes sense.

There are known consistency issues with XM193. It doesn't mean that SR15s don't run XM193.

Posted: 6/6/2017 10:44:21 AM EDT

[#39]

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This makes sense.

There are known consistency issues with XM193. It doesn't mean that SR15s don't run XM193.

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Except mine, obviously.

Posted: 6/6/2017 10:47:45 AM EDT

[#40]

7 double feeds - COMPLETELY WRITE OFF RIFLE
_{(ignore ammo and magazines - the most common issue)}

Posted: 6/6/2017 10:51:02 AM EDT

[#41]

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Except mine, obviously.

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You're running cheap ammo with known QC issues. 7 double feeds in 900 rounds isn't the end of the world. If you need more reliability than that then buy a higher quality ammo.

Posted: 6/6/2017 10:54:08 AM EDT

[#42]

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Quoted:
This makes sense.

There are known consistency issues with XM193. It doesn't mean that SR15s don't run XM193.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
2. Do we recommend XM193
Generally we don't. There are no current Mil contracts for "M193" ammunition. At this point its simply a "product name" that companies use to sell lower cost ammunition. QC on most XM193 has been thrown out the window. This leads to over pressured ammunition, popped primers, brass deformations, and lowered accuracy standards.

This makes sense.

There are known consistency issues with XM193. It doesn't mean that SR15s don't run XM193.

Damn. I think they really need to update their site and spread it to their distributors to do the same.

OP you may have to stick with low power .223... but at the end of the day, you paid $2100 cause the rifle was supposed to be "the Shit." I would expect it to run multiple types of ammo as well.

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:00:54 AM EDT

[#43]

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Damn. I think they really need to update their site and spread it to their distributors to do the same.

OP you may have to stick with low power .223... but at the end of the day, you paid $2100 cause the rifle was supposed to be "the Shit." I would expect it to run multiple types of ammo as well.

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Owning a $2100 rifle doesn't magically eliminate ammunition issues. Any rifle with a bad batch of XM193 will suffer.

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:04:49 AM EDT

[#44]

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Damn. I think they really need to update their site and spread it to their distributors to do the same.

OP you may have to stick with low power .223... but at the end of the day, you paid $2100 cause the rifle was supposed to be "the Shit." I would expect it to run multiple types of ammo as well.

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Exactly! This was the whole point of my posting. What's surprising is that what I'm running and what KAC knows/knew I am running is Lake City/Federal. I could see KAC's point if I said, "I'm running XM193 manufactured by Bob's Backyard Ammo Factory", but I specifically told them it was Lake City/Federal.

So, what KAC is actually said and is saying is that the SR-15 doesn't even handle Federal/Lake City XM193.

Buyer Beware.

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:06:08 AM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:

So, what KAC is actually said and is saying is that the SR-15 doesn't even handle Federal/Lake City XM193.

View Quote

Two questions:

1) What other ammo have you tried in this rifle, and what were the results?

2) What other guns have you tried this ammo in, and what were the results?

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:12:04 AM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:
Can you better describe your double feed?

Two fresh rounds, both partially inserted into the chamber with the fired case ejected?

Fired case still in the chamber fresh round jammed into the back of it?

Fired case extracted and above partially fed fresh round?

Fired case stove piped out the side?

View Quote

This^

Are these actual double feeds or are you mis-describing a failure to extract or eject?

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:14:43 AM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:
So I will touch on a few points here.

1. Can KAC rifles handle Mil-Standard Ammo
Yes 100% absolutely they can

2. Do we recommend XM193/M193
Generally we don't. There are no current Mil contracts for "XM193/M193" ammunition. At this point its simply a "product name" that companies use to sell lower cost ammunition. QC on most XM193/M193 has been thrown out the window. This leads to over pressured ammunition, popped primers, brass deformations, and lowered accuracy standards.

3. We do test all SR-15's with PMC Bronze
The reason for this is two fold. First is the consistently round to round, case to case, and lot to lot is exceptional. Its that happy middle ground in terms of velocity & pressure. Secondly is the availability of PMC in the commercial market place.

Hope this helps. Please let me know if you need us to bring your upper in for inspection. Ill get you an RMA and a Call Tag, if you want.

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I have no dog in this fight, but why isn't this made known before sale? Since XM193 is so prevalent why not be upfront about it? Finding out the hard way that your very expensive rifle is a stick, with the most readily available ammunition, doesn't seem right.

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:16:07 AM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:

So, what KAC is actually said and is saying is that the SR-15 doesn't even handle Federal/Lake City XM193.

View Quote

I think you're getting a little tunnel vision here. KAC is saying that SR-15 can handle XM193 just fine.

However, XM193 is not consistent enough from batch to batch to guarantee operation. Any rifle with out of spec XM193 would malfunction. I've experience dozens of popped primers years ago. I didn't blame Noveske.

Also, all XM193 is Federal/Lake City.

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:18:57 AM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:

You're running cheap ammo with known QC issues. 7 double feeds in 900 rounds isn't the end of the world. If you need more reliability than that then buy a higher quality ammo.

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. . . . or I could by a higher quality rifle, right?

(In this case, by higher quality, I mean something that handles this this ammo better). I actually already have them. In fact, I have a couple of LWRCs (Adam at KAC's former employer, I believe) that have never, ever had a double feed, a FTE, or a FTex. One is a full 16" A5, and the other is the PDW. I obviously wanted this KAC rifle to fill a different need than the LWRCs - specifically, the "do all, take across state lines without the blessing of the Feds" utility rifle. I also used to have an LMT CQB MRP that is now owned by my brother that never had any issues.

During the class (after double feed #5), I switched to my CZ Bren SBR. Although I do not enjoy shooting that rifle, the only malfunction it had was when my sling got caught on the reciprocating charging handle during alternative-positional shooting (user error).

So, sure, I could buy a crap ton of PMC Bronze and keep it specifically for the KAC, and shoot the Federal/Lake City stuff out of the other 5.56 options, but that goes against the whole point of the what KAC is supposed to be able to do. It's not supposed to be a temperamental snowflake of a rifle that needs to be coddled with only PMC Bronze ammo. It should be more versatile in my mind. Maybe I misunderstood KAC. But it seems I'm not the only one.

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:25:46 AM EDT

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:

Two questions:

1) What other ammo have you tried in this rifle, and what were the results?

2) What other guns have you tried this ammo in, and what were the results?

View Quote

See my post above, please. I have not tried alternative ammo with the KAC, but have shot at least three other rifles with that same ammo without malfunction.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Knight's Armament ("KAC") SR-15 - NOT Compatible with XM193 (Federal/Lake City)!!!! (Page 1 of 10)

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