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Posted: 3/9/2017 11:44:39 AM EDT
[#1]
 Tricking your stick with Nate and Trav 1 of 6 The Buttstock |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 11:45:28 AM EDT
[#2]
Be sure to watch the other videos as well.
I learned a lot. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 11:56:22 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Still have a lot of learning to do and I'm trying to figure out how most of you determine your length of pull and stock position. Do you guys go by "what feels right" or measurements from charging handle to nose, etc? I've always had shotguns with fixed stocks growing up, so it's new to me. The most natural position to me is at 6 (all the way extended). It just feels "close" to my body at the shorter positions. I have a DDM4V7 and recently bought a Steiner P4Xi 1-4 scope that I will be mounting on it, so take that into consideration (I'm thinking in terms of eye relief here). If the charging handle hits you in the nose under recoil, it's too short. Other than that, I'd say whatever is comfortable. I usually run all the way out, but sometimes click in a notch depending on what I'm wearing. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 12:16:02 PM EDT
[#4]
Square up to the target, don't blade. Elbows locked down, no chicken wings. Put your nose on the charging handle. Push your optics forward from that position so that you have the proper eye relief, use an extended or SPR type mount if you need to. Your stock should be either fully collapsed or out 1-2 clicks, doesn't matter how long your arms are. When you're shooting from prone should be the only time you'll want the stock out a little further. A more vertical pistol grip like the MagPul K2, B5 Grip 23, or the BCM grips will help a lot.
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Posted: 3/9/2017 12:16:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the charging handle hits you in the nose under recoil, it's too short. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 1:16:56 PM EDT
[#6]
Highly subjective
The old 'inside of elbow to middle finger' guideline is too long for me I like it on the short side Nose to charging handle with about a 1/4inch space The advantage is less swing weight, less fatigue But, if it's to short your right arm muscle isn't at an optimum angle for strength Your strong arm is designed to grab things out a ways.... So it's a ballance to comfort! |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 1:32:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Highly subjective The old 'inside of elbow to middle finger' guideline is too long for me I like it on the short side Nose to charging handle with about a 1/4inch space The advantage is less swing weight, less fatigue But, if it's to short your right arm muscle isn't at an optimum angle for strength Your strong arm is designed to grab things out a ways.... So it's a ballance to comfort! So nose as close to the charging handle as possible with enough clearance for recoil sounds about right. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 3:36:37 PM EDT
[#8]
OP, you're right.
For most people all the way out or close to it is actually the way it should be run, but for some reason once the AR became popular, decades of proper LOP and rifle handling wisdom went out the window as everyone scrunched up into awkward, unnatural positions. It's a rifle. So is a bolt-action gun. The same principles of a relaxed and natural stance apply. I can't stand seeing people who round and raise their shoulders artificially when firing an AR. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NPbpNX406U |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 3:37:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Square up to the target, don't blade. Elbows locked down, no chicken wings. Put your nose on the charging handle. Push your optics forward from that position so that you have the proper eye relief, use an extended or SPR type mount if you need to. Your stock should be either fully collapsed or out 1-2 clicks, doesn't matter how long your arms are. When you're shooting from prone should be the only time you'll want the stock out a little further. A more vertical pistol grip like the MagPul K2, B5 Grip 23, or the BCM grips will help a lot. This is insanity. Seriously. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 3:39:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is insanity. Seriously. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 3:39:32 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is insanity. Seriously. Depends on whether or not you're shooting with armor. Plates and a carrier add quite a bit to your LOP. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 3:39:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you tried it? Yes. And it almost convinced me to dump all my ARs. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 3:42:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why wasn't your nose on the charging handle to begin with? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If the charging handle hits you in the nose under recoil, it's too short. 'Cause I know how to shoot a rifle? I also don't like getting punched in the nose, but to each his own, I reckon. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 3:51:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. And it almost convinced me to dump all my ARs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Have you tried it? Yes. And it almost convinced me to dump all my ARs. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 3:52:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
'Cause I know how to shoot a rifle? I also don't like getting punched in the nose, but to each his own, I reckon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the charging handle hits you in the nose under recoil, it's too short. 'Cause I know how to shoot a rifle? I also don't like getting punched in the nose, but to each his own, I reckon. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 6:19:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Fully collapsed for me.
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Posted: 3/9/2017 6:55:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Whatever feels right. I'm 5'6", #2 position is my all around. #6 for a little more distance.
Don't get overly scientific, imo. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 6:56:58 PM EDT
[#18]
I've got mine at 1-2 clicks out, but I've got short stumpy little arms and I'm not a thin person from front to back
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Posted: 3/9/2017 6:58:39 PM EDT
[#19]
Fully collapsed for CQB. Fully extended for all other shooting.
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Posted: 3/9/2017 7:01:33 PM EDT
[#20]
Almost always one click from being fully collapsed for me, nose just touching the CH. YMMV
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Posted: 3/9/2017 7:29:27 PM EDT
[#21]
I run mine in to + 1 or + 2 for T-shirt. and around +1 with a Plate carrier. I don't run nose to the Charging handle...
Lots of Opinions. Pat McNamara told us at a class once to use as much of the rifle as you can and he runs his stock all the way out. I tried it and it was difficult for me. That's the whole point of an adjustable stock... to suit your shooting style and body. Spend enough time shooting, and you figure it out for yourself... |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 8:38:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why wasn't your nose on the charging handle to begin with? Not everyone uses NTCH. Different strokes, etc. |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 4:00:07 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not everyone uses NTCH. Different strokes, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why wasn't your nose on the charging handle to begin with? Not everyone uses NTCH. Different strokes, etc. Mostly #2 position for me, RDS set up, since it provide the best torque with my support hand on the vertical grip or handstop; I'm 5' 9".On variable scope setup, whichever position provide the correct sight picture in the eyebox usually, #3 or #4, depend on whether I was using cantilever mount or rings. |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 4:45:55 AM EDT
[#24]
Use what feels most comfortable for you OP. For me its a SOPMOD (very long stock) in the fully collapsed position, or a Colt waffle in the first position out on a Colt buffer tube. (Which would be the third position out on a 6 position tube)
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Posted: 3/10/2017 9:25:08 AM EDT
[#25]
Don't obsess. Only you know what feels best. Its adjustable for a reason. Try different positions until you get what works best. It is likely to be different for prone or bench with your scope shooting groups than you might want it for HD or running drills or a course with timer.
My HD carbine with red dot is run nose to charge handle and a standard M4 stock. My scoped precision build is run with a longer length of pull Magpul ACS stock pretty far back when shooting groups with bipod or from front rest and rear bag. There is no "right" answer beyond personal experimentation. I know you want to get eye relief right on your scope and that begins with stock position. If you install your scope correctly in your ADM Recon, you can later loosen the rings and change its position fore or aft without leaving ring marks on the tube. To begin, so you can start shooting, try putting your stock, presumably an M4, in its middle position, set scope eye relief off of that and go from there. It's your rifle. Let it fit you. Adjust as you think best. |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 10:03:49 AM EDT
[#26]
Nose to charging handle is the military's way of training a bunch of people who don't know how to shoot in a hurry.
It is not the best way to do it. Serviceable, but not the best. |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 11:59:49 AM EDT
[#27]
Comfort and balance is how I do it. Also what I am wearing clothing wise has some to do with it. Most time I am on notch 2-3 which gives me the eye rifle on my optic I like and balances the rifle best for what I like.
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Posted: 3/10/2017 12:46:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So nose as close to the charging handle as possible with enough clearance for recoil sounds about right. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Highly subjective The old 'inside of elbow to middle finger' guideline is too long for me I like it on the short side Nose to charging handle with about a 1/4inch space The advantage is less swing weight, less fatigue But, if it's to short your right arm muscle isn't at an optimum angle for strength Your strong arm is designed to grab things out a ways.... So it's a ballance to comfort! So nose as close to the charging handle as possible with enough clearance for recoil sounds about right. Exactly, It's not so close that my right arm feels ackward But it's close enough to that all the mass of the receiver and barrel much closer to me than they would be otherwise It really surprised me how much I loved it, I measured it like 11.3ish inches and it feels fantastic |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 12:49:01 PM EDT
[#29]
I have a 1-6x and keep my stock in the fourth position.
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Posted: 3/10/2017 1:50:09 PM EDT
[#30]
I run 3/4 out. Enough room that I'm not cramped and can pull the rifle nicely into my shoulder close enough on that it's not off balance or front heavy
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Posted: 3/10/2017 3:23:41 PM EDT
[#31]
One out for me on my sopmods, and A1 on my rifle stocks. I regularly shoot with guys who run it all the way in, and all the way out. We don't stand around arguing about it or insulting each other. Just go shoot. You'll figure it out.
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Posted: 3/10/2017 4:01:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One out for me on my sopmods, and A1 on my rifle stocks. I regularly shoot with guys who run it all the way in, and all the way out. We don't stand around arguing about it or insulting each other. Just go shoot. You'll figure it out. Pretty much this. I generally shoot NTCH but a couple of my fixed stock builds bring me out a little further. my SBR stock is really too short but I built it when I lived up north and often shot it with a jacket etc. Whatever is comfortable and effective for you will be fine. |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 5:11:22 PM EDT
[#33]
I measure length of pull by putting a tape on my elbow and measuring to a bent trigger finger. A professional shotgun fitter determined I had a 14" LOP. I usually measure it myself at 13.75." I shoot a carbine AR two notches out.
To expound on what others have said, there are a lot of folks who shoot ARs with much shorter than standards LOPs. I think some of this is due to seeing pictures of people who have to change things up to accommodate and make use of body armor or are forced to deal with their rifle in tight quarters. I prefer shooting an AR like any other rifle. I (fortunately) don't have to wear body armor or get in and out of vehicles with it. The great thing about an adjustable stock is you can try different LOPs. |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 2:33:21 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nose to charging handle is the military's way of training a bunch of people who don't know how to shoot in a hurry. It is not the best way to do it. Serviceable, but not the best. ^^This. It's the military's way of showing new shooters how to keep a consistent cheek weld and sight picture. For experienced shooters or those using an RDS other optic, it's not needed |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 2:43:05 AM EDT
[#35]
In a t-shirt I collapse until the charging handle dinks me on the nose, then I go out one. When I put on armor I shorten it by a notch.
Simple as dat |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 5:36:47 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^This. It's the military's way of showing new shooters how to keep a consistent cheek weld and sight picture. For experienced shooters or those using an RDS other optic, it's not needed Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nose to charging handle is the military's way of training a bunch of people who don't know how to shoot in a hurry. It is not the best way to do it. Serviceable, but not the best. ^^This. It's the military's way of showing new shooters how to keep a consistent cheek weld and sight picture. For experienced shooters or those using an RDS other optic, it's not needed Exactly. |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 9:04:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In a t-shirt I collapse until the charging handle dinks me on the nose, then I go out one. When I put on armor I shorten it by a notch. Simple as dat Same for me. That's 3rd position on my UBR and CTR on my wife's rifle. No armor but #2 during the winter with heavy coat on. |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 9:07:12 PM EDT
[#38]
http://soldiersystems.net/2013/08/24/gunfighter-moment-frank-proctor/
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Posted: 3/11/2017 9:35:01 PM EDT
[#39]
Anything works if you work it...
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Posted: 3/11/2017 9:44:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://soldiersystems.net/2013/08/24/gunfighter-moment-frank-proctor/ I shoot one notch in from fully extended now. I used to shoot one or two clicks out from fully collapsed and it work decent enough for me. I want to say it was around 2008 when I took a class from Jared Reston (Reston Group Training) and he had us shoot with the stock fully extended. It felt awkward at first but, as the days rolled on, it started making sense and I could feel the difference. |
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Posted: 3/12/2017 11:20:44 PM EDT
[#41]
What is done for Service Rifle is setting the scope for a tight slung prone position, which usually has the stock fully extended and the nose to charging handle.
For sitting and [bladed] offhand, bring the stock in if necessary to keep the proper eye relief (even with irons). Those with variable power scopes may go down to reduce their perceived wobble, but also match the natural eye position. With red dots, I guess it's more of a balance/feel thing. If you can reduce wobble without having a weird grip from being too long or too short, go for it. |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 12:00:20 AM EDT
[#42]
Do what is comfortable for you. As long as you are consistent and practice that way, you will shoot better and as you get better your speed increases if that is what you are going for.
When I was in the Marine Corps, we incessantly scrubbed the shit out of our rifles. All of them had the finish worn down to the metal, defeating the purpose of being finished. When I left the Marine Corps, I vowed to never abuse my firearms that way. I now have clean firearms and the finish is still intact. I think some people latch onto the nose to charging handle concept because they were in the Army or heard about it from someone in the Army, and they treat it as gospel and simply won't let it go. Nose to charging handle is not for everyone. Try it and see if it works for you. If not, don't use it. There are a lot of people that shoot well without using NTCH. It is not a necessity. |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 1:12:18 AM EDT
[#43]
I go as SHORT as I comfortably can. For me, that's usually 1/2" between nose to charging handle in my normal (squared up) shooting stance. For me, that's the 3rd position (1st being "closed") or also often referred to as: "two clicks out" from closed.
ETA: but I also exclusively use K2 grips (very vertical), so that plays a big factor in my decision. |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 1:21:18 AM EDT
[#44]
6'3" and shoot with it fully collapsed, unless I'm using LWRCi Ultra Compact System, then I go 1 click out.
Feels perfect. |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 2:39:13 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I go as SHORT as I comfortably can. For me, that's usually 1/2" between nose to charging handle in my normal (squared up) shooting stance. For me, that's the 3rd position (1st being "closed") or also often referred to as: "two clicks out" from closed. ETA: but I also exclusively use K2 grips (very vertical), so that plays a big factor in my decision. Hmmm. Might have to look into that grip. I have a hogue on my 10.5 and the angle is driving my nuts. I'd love a really vertical grip as I try to keep my shockwave as collapsed as possible. |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 10:58:12 AM EDT
[#46]
Consistent stock weld. Gotta have it unless you don't mind group size increases or issues with parallax with a scope.
Nose to the charging handle. Even my .308 GII doesn't hurt my nose, so my ARs are barely noticeable. Don't know what the Drill Sgt's. are made of these days but back in the 70's they'd do a demonstration of holding an M16A1 (with one hand) on their nose/mouth and fire a few shots, to show us recruits that a firmly held M16 with the charging handle to the nose wouldn't hurt us. I set up my scopes so I can keep my nose on the charging handle. Sometimes, depending on the scope I have to buy a different mount or a cantilever and then different mount/rings, but I want that consistency. |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 12:46:23 PM EDT
[#47]
I use an A5 system with the stock completely collapsed. This would be equivalent to 1 notch out on a regular 6 position receiver extension. I shoot nose to charging handle with a squared stance standing. Even prone facing directly at the target it still isn't too short. This also effectively makes the rifle 3" shorter overall and allows me to grip the rifle 3" closer to the muzzle.
Do what feels right to you. |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 2:09:44 PM EDT
[#48]
Despite what some folks have posted, there is NO One Size Fits All when it comes to a shooting position.
It depends on the firearm configuration, the optic or sighting system, and the shooter. Some people like shooting NTCH (Nose To Charging Handle). Others don't. The ARMY taught NTCH because it was the fastest way to ensure at least some kind of consistency among the recruits. Of course, most ARMY trained troops also didn't believe an M16A2 could accurately hit a man sized target beyond 300 yards (despite Marines doing that every year during rifle requalification). You want a shooting position that is comfortable, stable, supportive, and repeatable. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 1:39:22 AM EDT
[#49]
4th for Aimpoint ARs and 5th (A2 length) for scoped. I'm 6'3" and don't ntch.
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Posted: 3/20/2017 11:48:45 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have to do all of it, not just shorten the LOP. If you're bladed with a short LOP it's not going to work very well. It felt unnatural at first, but the timer doesn't lie. It also makes transitions between targets considerably faster. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Have you tried it? Yes. And it almost convinced me to dump all my ARs. |
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