Hey guys,

As I've started researching the AR system, parts and companies over the last six months I have scoured the internet forums, youtube videos, reviews, and relevant websites.  Even then I haven't exhausted all resources, but I've put in at least 600 hours.  When looking at high end AR barrels it came down to three Noveske, Wilson Combat, and LaRue.  After some more research I've narrowed it down to Wilson Combat and LaRue (nothing against Noveske barrels which I'm sure are great).  It's funny, when you ask people what is better on 1911 forums they say WC is better, and yet on LaRue-friendly websites they say LaRue is better (the bias is obvious).  I'm looking for the most unbiased comparison between these two that I can find - I want empirical data or responsible well-sourced testimony.  If you shoot LaRue and love it, that's great, tell me why.  But don't say LaRue is better than Wilson Combat just because you like LaRue even though you've never shot or owned a WC.  Similarly, don't say WC is better simply because you had a friend of a friend of a friend tell you that LaRue was worse.  That is rationally irresponsible and I'm not interested in that.  And if you do tell me that, at least make sure to source it, (i.e. I say LaRue is better, but really that's just because a friend of a friend told me that).

I'm looking for a Stainless Steel 5.56 16" 1:7 twist barrel.  For the purposes of this thread, price is irrelevant.  So any, "LaRue is better because you get the same quality for less the price" is uninteresting to me.


1) Which steel is better quality/more durable?
2) Which is lighter weight? (WC offers fluting, LaRue doesn't seem to)
3) Which has better accuracy (at 100 yards, 200, 300, 500)?
4) Better comparability (which will run better with a wide variety of parts from different companies)

If I've missed some criteria feel free to post it.  I would greatly appreciate and value the input.
Thank you!

Larue barrels dominate the 1 MOA all day challenge.

Not to say the WC barrels are not any less accurate.

Is your shooting ability good enough to tell a difference?  Do you exclusive use match ammo?

Honestly if your looking for the best I would put a Krieger on order.


I have two Larue barrels. The first has performed very well with several different loads. Here is a 10 shot group from 107 yards. It comes down to .66 MOA. ETA this was shot off a GG&G bipod with a small rear bag.







My second barrel hasn't been so hot, but I'm still getting started with it. It's a 12" with much more recoil. If I can't get it sub MOA pretty soon I'll call Larue and get it replaced.


 

Here are some more 5 shot 107 yard groups from my 20" Larue barrel. These are with 77gr SMK and 23.5gr of Varget.

Thanks for the info so far guys.

@ThePitt, again thanks.  Side note though, I'm trying to get as much objective information as possible.  So subjective info like how well I shoot isn't relevant, YET.

I forgot to add that I found this Rainier Arms barrel that seems pretty good and lightweight:

Rainier Arms: https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-selecttm-5-56mm-fluted-barrel-16-ss
Noveske: http://www.noveske.com/collections/barrels/products/diplomat-5-56mm-barrel
Wilson Combat: http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Match-Grade-Barrel-556-NATO-Recon-Tactical-16-1-7-Twist-Stainless-Fluted/productinfo/TR-556RC16F-17/
LaRue: link for Stainless Steel LaRue barrel?

All of Larue's barrels are stainless, they are all coated black before they leave the factory.

Krieger is what you seek, period.

How do you talk about high end barrel and not even mention Krieger.
If I was building an AR with accuracy in mind, it would be a Krieger plain and simple.

Lothar Walther has M4 barrels for $200.  What is not to like?

data or reasons for your opinion please.  Don't just state your opinion because I have no idea who you are or who you came to that conclusion.

As to the LaRue barrels, I must have gotten a lemon as it is at best a 2.5 MOA tube.  12" Stealth.  My BCM ELW barrels have beaten it by being sub MOA FWIW.

 

Haven't tried a WC tube as yet.  But Colt Hbar Elite CR 6724, and a Mega 18" and Rock Creek custom to name a few of the 14 I have personally owned and shot.


Yes, I know what I am capable of and what my rifles are capable of.  The only positive thing I can say for the 12" Stealth lemon is that the displacement when running the AAC SPR-M4 was the least of any barrel I had owned.  Note that this barrel was assembled into 2 different uppers as well as every other trick known to man.

You have spent 600 hours abd still cannot make up your mind; you come here asking for help, and then you criticize somebody (me? not sure) who tries to help with information.  Because it is not satisfactory to your demands?

Welcome to my ignore list.

I would call Larue and ask for a replacement.

 

That's a great attitude for someone looking for help.

Seriously, if you've done that much research and haven't found glowing reviews for Krieger barrels, then you need to go back to the drawing board. Theyre name has been synonymous with very high quality barrels for years.

Another option would be X-Caliber barrels out of Kalispell, MT. I have two and they're sub MOA. They also have a barrel builder on the website to design exactly what you want.

23 hours per week for 26 WEEKS???  The 16ers are giving the 13ers a run for their money.



Had you spent just 30 minutes going through the tacked threads on this website, you'd have found examples of why people in this thread are recommending Krieger barrels.



reposted from reference links



The Essentials of an Accurate AR-15






Without making this overly complicated, you need three basic components for a semi-automatic AR-15 to produce its best mechanical accuracy (technically, precision):  a match-grade barrel, a quality free-float handguard and match-grade ammunition, preferably hand-loads tuned for your barrel.  (The free-float handguard doesn’t add to the accuracy of the barrel per se, it simply prevents any outside influence from detracting from the accuracy of the barrel.)  Anything after that will not immensely improve the mechanical accuracy of the semi-automatic AR-15, but several things can help you, the shooter, shoot to the level of the intrinsic accuracy of your semi-automatic AR-15.









While there are certainly gifted individuals among us that can do amazing things with iron sights, most of us will benefit from using a quality, high-power scope to achieve the highest level of accuracy/precision from an AR-15.  In order to hit the exact same spot on the target every time, you have to be able to see that you are holding on the exact same spot every time.  It’s also important for the scope to be mounted at the proper height and at the correct eye-relief for the particular scope.  One of the most common errors I see with scopes mounted on AR-15s is the scope not being mounted far enough forward for its eye-relief.  

In order to maintain that exact hold on the target throughout the trigger pull, it helps not to be fighting with a heavy, gritty, stock trigger.  There are a variety of aftermarket triggers now on the market for both standard size trigger pins and the larger Colt trigger pins.  Personal preference will definitely play a role in trigger selection.  Among the two-stage triggers, I’ve found the Geissele triggers to be the smoothest, lightest, most consistent and most reliable.  For single-stage triggers, it’s hard to beat the JP Enterprise Fire Control System.  Keep in mind that the JP trigger does require fitting.

Following the scope and trigger selection, some shooters will find that items like aftermarket grips and stocks will help them achieve a better “fit” with their AR-15.  (Shooters don’t all come in the exact same size and shape.)  Once you’ve put your accurate rig together, you have to find a match-grade factory load that your barrel “likes” or better yet, develop a match-grade handload for it.  

A semi-automatic AR-15 is not going to shoot to the same level as a precision bolt-gun, but today’s precision AR-15s are capable of a level of accuracy/precision that is truly outstanding for a semi-automatic rifle.  The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from one of my Krieger barreled semi-automatic AR-15s from a distance of 100 yards.  I used Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings that were hand-loaded on a Dillon XL-650 progressive press.  The group has an extreme spread of 0.474”.















….

16'ers looking for that "eye sniping" accuracy! YOLO

He's exhausted all resources.

@ Casar: I don't know who you are nor do I care.  I'm asking for people to help who want to give objective data or support their testimony with some evidence.  If this criteria bothers you for some strange reason than leave.

Side note, thank you for those who have been helpful and have supplied good evidence!

I thought it obvious molon that given the rounding of numbers such claims aren't meant to be pressed for mathematical precision.

Nevertheless, thank you for the data.  That is helpful

 
Oh you don't care? Why the fuck should any of us help you then?

Are you saying that I need to care who you are in order to give objective data?  Not only is that logically invalid, it speaks really lot of your self-confidence.

EDIT: I'm honestly quite shocked.  I'm new to this forum and you guys are really giving a terrible first impression.  I make a perfectly rational claim with reasonable criteria, and half of you are totally ignoring that opting instead for complaining about how I'm not showing I care for who you are, or how my criteria bothers you or your feelings.  Honestly, can the internet trolls please just go away.

This does not apply jaqufrost, 308Sako, or Molon.  Thank you for your help so far and for not taking everything personally.

 
I'm saying you come here for advice because you can't make up your damn mind then proceed to insult members.


You are the one that has issues my friend

Just go away Mikhail.  If "asking for reasons or evidence for your opinion and not just giving an unsubstantiated opinion" hurts your feelings, than you need to grow thicker skin.  What is the world coming to when asking for objective evidence or support for one's opinions hurts people's feelings? Gah...

 
Oh I really don't give a shit about helping you, you're already beyond help if it takes you 600 hours to make a simple decision, doubt you could even tell the difference shooting wise out of a Kreiger barrel and a DPMS

I shot NRA High Power for about 3 seasons.

I bought a Compass Lake Engineering Service Rifle upper built with a Krieger barrel, SS 1/75.

On a number of occasions I shot, off sand bags, 5 rounds of 75gr Black Hills into .75" @ 100 yards.

My eyes are older now but that barrel was, hands down, the most accurate barrel I have ever owned or ever shot.

That is the reason for my opinion, and I have no idea who you are either ace.

I think people need to relax a little.  I can say that a Krieger barrel is the best thing since sliced bread but with out some clear cut data my claims might be suspect.  

On the other hand OP take these claims from some of the folks here as useful information even without the empirical data you seek.  

If I didn't take the recommendations of Stickman on a Wilson TTU I would have missed out on one of the best single stage drop in triggers ever IMHO.

History of brand.... customer service..... how the company deals with a problem if there potentially is a problem is important as well.  Krieger has a strong history.

Molon has some interesting posts and does a lot of testing.

I would buy a Larue.... Rainier Arms Ultramatch......

I am sure there are some niche companies that you could spend hundreds of dollars for a barrel and get a tack driver.  I haven't researched it myself but what is your goal?

Kreiger, Lilja, Douglas, or the Compass Lake variations will most likely have better accuracy potential than all but a very miniscule fraction of us can actually use.  The limiting factor will almost always be the ammo and the shooter.

No two barrels, even in the same profile from the same company shoot the same.  Small sample comparisons across manufacturers of premium barrels are likely to fall within the margin of error, even if you control for other variables, rendering such side-by-side comparison s statistically invalid.

If OP uses match grade ammo and has the skill, any premium match grade barrel from any of the most respected barrel makers will shoot better than he can.

Thank you very much guys, this is great stuff

Paralysis by analysis ... it can happen.  Good luck with your extensive research.  I'm sure we will all learn something from this thread.

I would be an honor!  And thank you!

You sound like someone I don't like to help. But I did above.



 

Don't look at LaRue unless you want an accurate 1/8.

There a bunch of these threads in archive if you really want to do some research but you have to pony up $24 and become a member.

I'm happy with my Rainier ultramatch. Shot ~.6" 100 yard 6 shot group last weekend, now that I got around to finding a load it likes. I would buy another, but my next will likely be Wilson due to what I want being in stock now and price.

As has been pointed out, a direct comparison with a small sample size will produce statistically insignificant results. A direct comparison between barrel manufactures is nearly impossible.

I can say that Larue would take care of you if there's an issue.

Black Hole is an under-represented company (they actually make barrels for Ranier). 416R steel, polygonal rifling, and BAT extensions. Shot-peened and hot-bath black oxide finish, $355.00.

The polygonal rifling does give a slight velocity boost over traditional rifling, and it reduces projectile deformation (better for extreme range shooting).

On top of that, they have top-notch customer service. Back when I had a very pricey rifle and kit stolen, I was an utter ass to everyone. I was dealing with them on an order, and they put up with me. Even helped me alter the order... and I surely didn't deserve their being nice to me at all. Just genuinely decent people.

BTW, the barrels shoot like lasers, and I've noticed the barrels don't foul anywhere near as much as regular barrels. One ragged hole at 100yrds for a 3 or 5 round group? Pshh, I do that with an entire 10rnd magazine. Extremely consistent.

Sounds like it would make a good entry on the MOA all day challenge: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_17/51___ARFCOM_1_MOA_ALL_DAY_LONG__Challenge_.html



 

Added to The Wall of Claim

So that aside, in my personal experience, my polygonal rifled barrel fouls much faster than either my cut rifled or button rifled traditional rifling barrels, and is also less accurate.  About the only thing I think is consistently better in a polygonal rifled barrel, is a slight velocity edge given the same load/length.

How much velocity gain do you see?



 

I know my larue barrel wouldn't , so far it doesn't like 69 SMK or 75gr Hornadys  guess I'll try 55gr and 77's next

 


And who should I ask for Mark, the tooth fairy...  




However in a serious vein, I really should take your advice :-)




Thank you




Edit: to add that I made the call, which was returned by Dan and LaRue CS is as expected top notch. It will be evaluated and we go forward.




 

There isn't exactly a peer review process in the gun world. First, there are too many variables in the field of ballistics and precision shooting for anything to be reproduceable, and second, because most people don't give a shit whether or not you take their advice. Manufacturers and online reviewers tend to document short, limited tests. People who have put tens of thousands of hours into the various aspects of the hobby (or profession) obviously will not have documented all of it. Nevertheless, anecdotal evidence from an accomplished shooter is generally worth more than "we put 50 rounds of brand X, Y, and Z ammo through barrels A, B, and C. Here are the groups and chrono results."

OP needs to learn JP.

TXL

20-25 fps.  Not enough to really matter, and I have only the one example.

Yeah, I'm totally fine with testimony like that!  But that needs to be drawn out.  What I don't care for is people coming on and saying, "LaRue is the best!  Buy that."  "Umm... oka, why should I trust you (in the 3rd person 'you')?"  You see?  That person may have never even shot a gun in their life for all I know.  If you're going to say LaRue is the best (for example), than state, "I know this because I've shot thousands of rounds through it and it's never let me down." or "I have a buddy of mine who has owned both WC and Rainier and he says _____ is better" or something like that.  I'm not against testimony; testimony is great.  Just tell me WHY your testimony is something I should value so I can categorize it, that's all I'm asking.  And it seems to me that the majority of people commenting on this thread have done great with that, so I'm very grateful.  There were only a few bad apples earlier on hah.

Thanks again!

Haven't  given up on it yet,just surprised how bad it was with those work up loads

 
:-)

I find myself leaning heavily towards this Rainier Arms barrel: https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-selecttm-5-56mm-fluted-barrel-16-ss

Any thoughts?  Unfortunately it's out of stock and I have no idea when/if they will be coming back in stock...