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Posted: 3/18/2016 1:16:51 PM EDT
Given:
Ch1na wants us to have crappy weapons, and USA parts are superior, and anyone who knowingly buys overseas gear (excepting all the fine surplus firearms) is not a patriot. The cheap parts will fail and forget mounting a sling or accessories. I have never handled an AR, and I have no idea what I want. I'd hate to spend $260 on a sweet HG that turns out not what I like. Yes I could resell or keep for the inevitable 2nd build, but I found a guard that looks good to me. Someone is putting ch1na parts on their builds. Are the handguards really so bad? A couple of hundred towards ammo would be nice. 
CHAD |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 1:31:50 PM EDT
[#1]
Cheap stuff gets no love around here.
My guess is some of it works well enough. I'm sure some cheap stuff doesn't. It all depends on what you want to do with the gun. If it's a serious gun for home defense, it's probably best to leave the cheap stuff off. But having said that, I'm sure some of that stuff might hold up to some amount of abuse. They guy running battlefield Las Vegas says the railed handgaurds they use that seem to be the most robust are some Korean ones. Which I don't know if he ever said what brand it was. You should buy them and do a torture test and tell us what you find. I think that's part of the problem. Most good stuff gets tested for durability. I think. The cheap knock off stuff, they probably aren't spending money to R and D the stuff as much. So..... clear as mud, eh? If it's a range gun, who cares? If it's for something serious, use reputable products. Or test and evaluate to know what you got. My 2 cents which are worth just that. |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 1:35:44 PM EDT
[#2]
If you could take a good pic of the inner wall of the handguard so that we could clearly see the KeyMod slots, you would most likely see a lack of a crucial cut necessary for KeyMod to work as designed.
I think a good bit of the flack KeyMod gets is from people buying non spec KeyMod products and complaining when their accessories work their way loose. Edit: Even though I run high-end handguards, I have always been a proponent of the UTG Pro brand. I even purchased a few sets to play around with and I couldn't find any major flaws with them. UTG Pro (made in USA) would be about as cheap as I would go. |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 1:49:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you could take a good pic of the inner wall of the handguard so that we could clearly see the KeyMod slots, you would most likely see a lack of a crucial cut necessary for KeyMod to work as designed. I think a good bit of the flack KeyMod gets is from people buying non spec KeyMod products and complaining when their accessories work their way loose. Edit: Even though I run high-end handguards, I have always been a proponent of the UTG Pro brand. I even purchased a few sets to play around with and I couldn't find any major flaws with them. UTG Pro (made in USA) would be about as cheap as I would go. I havent bought yet, but here is the stock pic: 
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Posted: 3/18/2016 2:22:07 PM EDT
[#4]
Exactly what I thought... That is not a Keymod hand guard. I'll post up more info as soon as I locate it. Hang tight...
EDIT: Take a look at this. Notice the cuts missing from every single Keymod slot on the the back side? Those cuts mate with Keymod attachment hardware and lock in the accessory. Those cuts also add a lot of machine time when fabricating the rail. This is why you "buy once cry one". Real Keymod costs more but actually works. What you have there is basically useless for any "real" type of Keymod functionality. Note the sections I marked in red
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Posted: 3/18/2016 2:32:09 PM EDT
[#5]
I've tried a few of them. They were all out of spec in one way or another. Most of the keymod slots are machined incorrectly. Also the 1913 rails are often out of spec, so front sights or bipods don't/won't fit.
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Posted: 3/18/2016 2:39:59 PM EDT
[#6]
Here is a pic of the interior of one of my NSRs. Note the "cuts" in the slots. I have never had an issue with accessories coming loose or detaching from a NSR.
 Note the angled shape of the Keymod attachment nuts. This angle should match the angle on the cuts to the Keymod slots on the interior of the rail.  |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 2:42:44 PM EDT
[#7]
How much can one save in all actuality buying Chinese vs 'Merica parts? Plus when you have to replace the Chinese rail because it breaks or something goes wrong you will be even deeper in the hole Buy once Cry one! With companies like Midwest Industries and discounts on products from misc sites why buy Chinese. I got my 15" MI M-Lok rail well under $200 from optics planet when it was on sale with a 10% off with free shipping.
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Posted: 3/18/2016 2:51:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How much can one save in all actuality buying Chinese vs 'Merica parts? Plus when you have to replace the Chinese rail because it breaks or something goes wrong you will be even deeper in the hole Buy once Cry one! With companies like Midwest Industries and discounts on products from misc sites why buy Chinese. I got my 15" MI M-Lok rail well under $200 from optics planet when it was on sale with a 10% off with free shipping. Even top companies like Geissele and Noveske sell 'em cheap if you keep and eye out. I think someone like Brownells or Midway had the 13.5" NSRs for $175 recently. This might be a decent option: |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 3:25:32 PM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 3/18/2016 4:29:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Given: Ch1na wants us to have crappy weapons, and USA parts are superior, and anyone who knowingly buys overseas gear (excepting all the fine surplus firearms) is not a patriot. The cheap parts will fail and forget mounting a sling or accessories. I have never handled an AR, and I have no idea what I want. I'd hate to spend $260 on a sweet HG that turns out not what I like. Yes I could resell or keep for the inevitable 2nd build, but I found a guard that looks good to me. Someone is putting ch1na parts on their builds. Are the handguards really so bad? A couple of hundred towards ammo would be nice. http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lA8AAOSwuAVWx1iz/s-l1600.jpg CHAD One of the reasons I like building and buying AR-15's is because I can buy "made in the USA" parts without searching high and low. I get a sense of pride and a sense of accomplishment buying and using things made in America. I went to Sears two weeks ago on a whim to buy some tools and left in disgust that even Craftsman is now made in China. If we continue to buy foreign made products we can't be surprised when we can't find a job. |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 5:57:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Given: Ch1na wants us to have crappy weapons, and USA parts are superior, and anyone who knowingly buys overseas gear (excepting all the fine surplus firearms) is not a patriot. The cheap parts will fail and forget mounting a sling or accessories. I have never handled an AR, and I have no idea what I want. I'd hate to spend $260 on a sweet HG that turns out not what I like. Yes I could resell or keep for the inevitable 2nd build, but I found a guard that looks good to me. Someone is putting ch1na parts on their builds. Are the handguards really so bad? A couple of hundred towards ammo would be nice. http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lA8AAOSwuAVWx1iz/s-l1600.jpg CHAD It isn't elitism, it's the truth. Chinese rails use cheap, soft aluminum alloys. The threads tend to gall and/or flatten easily. The rails themselves flex under moderate pressure. You don't have to spend $300 to get a decent foreend, but I doubt seriously you'll get anything worth a damn for $40. |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 6:30:08 PM EDT
[#12]
As always, arfcom is a great resource. I will wait a few more months and save for a better quality HG.
Is it alright to shoot without a handguard? I would use the mag well to support with the other hand. CHAD |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 6:34:33 PM EDT
[#13]
I wouldn't do that. Look up the kaboom threads and see how many people report that they'd be missing fingers had their hands been on the mag well.
Kabooms are rare but they tend to be very destructive around the ejection port of the upper and the mag well area of the lower.  The pressure that causes the upper to bow out, also directs it's force directly down the mag well.  |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 7:38:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Buy American made. ALWAYS. Not just for the superior quality, but to send a clear message to companies that are outsourcing their work taking jobs away from Americans that you won't support them. Nuff said.
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Posted: 3/18/2016 8:04:23 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of the reasons I like building and buying AR-15's is because I can buy "made in the USA" parts without searching high and low. I get a sense of pride and a sense of accomplishment buying and using things made in America. I went to Sears two weeks ago on a whim to buy some tools and left in disgust that even Craftsman is now made in China. If we continue to buy foreign made products we can't be surprised when we can't find a job. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Given: Ch1na wants us to have crappy weapons, and USA parts are superior, and anyone who knowingly buys overseas gear (excepting all the fine surplus firearms) is not a patriot. The cheap parts will fail and forget mounting a sling or accessories. I have never handled an AR, and I have no idea what I want. I'd hate to spend $260 on a sweet HG that turns out not what I like. Yes I could resell or keep for the inevitable 2nd build, but I found a guard that looks good to me. Someone is putting ch1na parts on their builds. Are the handguards really so bad? A couple of hundred towards ammo would be nice. http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lA8AAOSwuAVWx1iz/s-l1600.jpg CHAD One of the reasons I like building and buying AR-15's is because I can buy "made in the USA" parts without searching high and low. I get a sense of pride and a sense of accomplishment buying and using things made in America. I went to Sears two weeks ago on a whim to buy some tools and left in disgust that even Craftsman is now made in China. If we continue to buy foreign made products we can't be surprised when we can't find a job. amen brother.... |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 8:50:35 PM EDT
[#16]
In addition to all the other issues, I didn't see any anti-rotation tabs on the receiver end of that rail to keep it from twisting to the side. Pure junk.
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Posted: 3/18/2016 9:24:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Buy whatever you want, just don't come here and cry when your stuff takes a dump or blows up in your face. Buy quality stuff and you don't have to really worry about that.
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Posted: 3/18/2016 10:47:20 PM EDT
[#18]
I'd look at matrix
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Posted: 3/18/2016 11:29:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd look at matrix EDIT: Posts from page 2 report that Matrix hand guards in fact DO have the proper relief cuts.
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Posted: 3/18/2016 11:40:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct me if I'm wrong but from the only picture I could find, it looks like Matrix's "keymod" is just as bad as the one the OP posted pics of. It does not look like it has the required angled relief cuts for the slots on the interior of the hand guard. https://www.matrix-arms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lavi_feature.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'd look at matrix https://www.matrix-arms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lavi_feature.jpg Mine are cut just fine. Also: https://www.facebook.com/parallaxtactical/ Scroll down to Mar 8th Two Black and One FDE left.
$125 shipped Blems. 
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Posted: 3/18/2016 11:43:47 PM EDT
[#21]
And I thought Women were bad with their cloths!
LMFAO, you guys are funny! 
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Posted: 3/18/2016 11:52:34 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mine are cut just fine. Also: https://www.facebook.com/parallaxtactical/ Scroll down to Mar 8th https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/12801694_10153224444415059_169418187171660356_n.jpg?oh=5bf25bf45ec2f6125f9b4443d0395ced&oe=574C2BF7 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'd look at matrix https://www.matrix-arms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lavi_feature.jpg Mine are cut just fine. Also: https://www.facebook.com/parallaxtactical/ Scroll down to Mar 8th Two Black and One FDE left. $125 shipped Blems. https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/12801694_10153224444415059_169418187171660356_n.jpg?oh=5bf25bf45ec2f6125f9b4443d0395ced&oe=574C2BF7 You posted Parallax Tactical rails. That has nothing to do with Matrix or the brand OP posted. ...or are you just stating that Parallax Tactical's rails are cut correctly (for everyone's knowledge)? |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 11:55:49 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And I thought Women were bad with their cloths! LMFAO, you guys are funny! Ha ha like a clown funny? You don't think the OP's question is relevant and that the information provided in this thread is beneficial to someone on a budget wanting to purchase a hand guard without having his M300 falling off after 100 rounds? |
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Posted: 3/18/2016 11:59:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ha ha like a clown funny? You don't think the OP's question is relevant and that the information provided in this thread is beneficial to someone on a budget wanting to purchase a hand guard without having his M300 falling off after 100 rounds? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And I thought Women were bad with their cloths! LMFAO, you guys are funny! Ha ha like a clown funny? You don't think the OP's question is relevant and that the information provided in this thread is beneficial to someone on a budget wanting to purchase a hand guard without having his M300 falling off after 100 rounds? Oh, don't get me wrong, I think it is very relevant, I just find some of you guy really funny.. I spent 30 years in the Army and have shot and played with more than enough ChiCom items! That AK that shot me, was a real bitch! She has hurt for most of my life now! It is just after my experience, I don't believe they are going to fall off after a hundred rounds, some of the shit they supplied us with was far worse than anything I have ever seen coming out of China! 
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Posted: 3/19/2016 12:19:35 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You posted Parallax Tactical rails. That has nothing to do with Matrix or the brand OP posted. ...or are you just stating that Parallax Tactical's rails are cut correctly (for everyone's knowledge)? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd look at matrix https://www.matrix-arms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lavi_feature.jpg Mine are cut just fine. Also: https://www.facebook.com/parallaxtactical/ Scroll down to Mar 8th Two Black and One FDE left.
$125 shipped Blems. https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/12801694_10153224444415059_169418187171660356_n.jpg?oh=5bf25bf45ec2f6125f9b4443d0395ced&oe=574C2BF7 You posted Parallax Tactical rails. That has nothing to do with Matrix or the brand OP posted. ...or are you just stating that Parallax Tactical's rails are cut correctly (for everyone's knowledge)? Parallax was actually off topic: I wanted to let OP know they have a few blems left for only 125 bucks ... 
I guess I didn't clarify that well enough, sorry about that. I'm aware it had nothing to do with matrix rails. Atleast I think I'm aware |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 6:11:06 AM EDT
[#26]
buy once, cry once - over the years I have learned that lesson the hard way.
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Posted: 3/19/2016 6:36:41 AM EDT
[#27]
Rails are the easiest to find cheap. There is always something on sale. Look at ALG rails. Pretty affordable, very smooth and light, yet stiff. Samson rails have been showing up at heavy discounts not too long ago. They're a bit porky but feel awesome in hand. Probably still lighter than Chinese crap with big ass, unsightly barrel nuts.
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Posted: 3/19/2016 9:19:25 AM EDT
[#28]
I've got a matrix foxtrot 9inch on a pistol. It is absolutely rock solid as far as mounting goes... i was skeptical given its barrel nut so i tried as hard as i could to force it to rotate after instal. The thing did not budge. Not to mention it's the slimmest handguard I've ever seen -- which comes with its costs, my YHM Low-pro gas block wouldn't fit, i had to go for a micro gas block. I have a seekins rail and a BCM hand stop mounted on it, both lock in place perfectly fine, and the top 1913 rail matches perfectly with the YHM upper. I'll be glad to go the Matrix-route again in the future.
inexpensive doesn't always mean cheap. |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 9:32:30 AM EDT
[#29]
It's not a China rail, it's a Chines9e rail, and the 9 is silent.
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Posted: 3/19/2016 9:38:20 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've got a matrix foxtrot 9inch on a pistol. It is absolutely rock solid as far as mounting goes... i was skeptical given its barrel nut so i tried as hard as i could to force it to rotate after instal. The thing did not budge. Not to mention it's the slimmest handguard I've ever seen -- which comes with its costs, my YHM Low-pro gas block wouldn't fit, i had to go for a micro gas block. I have a seekins rail and a BCM hand stop mounted on it, both lock in place perfectly fine, and the top 1913 rail matches perfectly with the YHM upper. I'll be glad to go the Matrix-route again in the future. inexpensive doesn't always mean cheap. It isn't the price, it's where it's made. US companies have something to lose if they make faulty products. Chinese mfg.s not so much. |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 9:41:33 AM EDT
[#31]
I would look into ALG if I were in your boat, OP.
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Posted: 3/19/2016 10:21:28 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct me if I'm wrong but from the only picture I could find, it looks like Matrix's "keymod" is just as bad as the one the OP posted pics of. It does not look like it has the required angled relief cuts for the slots on the interior of the hand guard. https://www.matrix-arms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lavi_feature.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'd look at matrix https://www.matrix-arms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lavi_feature.jpg Mine has them, that pic makes it hard to tell really |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 10:38:57 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct me if I'm wrong but from the only picture I could find, it looks like Matrix's "keymod" is just as bad as the one the OP posted pics of. It does not look like it has the required angled relief cuts for the slots on the interior of the hand guard. https://www.matrix-arms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lavi_feature.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd look at matrix https://www.matrix-arms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lavi_feature.jpg  That picture clearly shows the relief cuts. See how it looks like little peaks? That is because the angle HAS been cut if it had not you would not see what looks like a 'point'In your haste you are spreading bullshit. |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 10:41:10 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mine has them, that pic makes it hard to tell really Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'd look at matrix https://www.matrix-arms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lavi_feature.jpg Mine has them, that pic makes it hard to tell really Thanks for the clarification. |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 10:42:39 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That picture clearly shows the relief cuts. See how it looks like little peaks? That is because the angle HAS been cut if it had not you would not see what looks like a 'point'In your haste you are spreading bullshit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'd look at matrix https://www.matrix-arms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lavi_feature.jpg That picture clearly shows the relief cuts. See how it looks like little peaks? That is because the angle HAS been cut if it had not you would not see what looks like a 'point'In your haste you are spreading bullshit. Did I not say "correct me if I am wrong"? |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 11:08:46 AM EDT
[#36]
Topic Moved
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Posted: 3/19/2016 11:13:33 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct me if I'm wrong but from the only picture I could find, it looks like Matrix's "keymod" is just as bad as the one the OP posted pics of. It does not look like it has the required angled relief cuts for the slots on the interior of the hand guard. EDIT: Posts from page 2 report that Matrix hand guards in fact DO have the proper relief cuts. https://www.matrix-arms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lavi_feature.jpg Am I crazy or just seeing this pic wrong..... But are the keymod slots on that hand guard cut backwards?
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Posted: 3/19/2016 11:39:03 AM EDT
[#38]
I know I'll get flamed for this, but just because it's made in China doesn't make it shit. I'll have to agree a lot of China stuff is junk. I'd hate to piss in everyone's cornflakes, but there are some quality China products.
With that said, the only thing I've ever bought that came from China for my ARs are a VG6 Epsilon Titanium (clone) and it wasn't cheap by any means @ $90. The reason why I didn't buy it here is because it is no longer available and this is the one I needed for my lightweight build I have a normal VG6 Epsilon to compare build/quality and it is literally exactly the same minus a logo. |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 4:57:53 PM EDT
[#39]
FYI For Matrix rails, gas blocks can be an issue. The Nitrided ones from Joebobs/Aim won't fit or have a nice amount of clearance. I was worried about barrel whip tbh, I could only slide a business card through the gap.
But the ones from KAK fit perfectly, and are pretty affordable and low profile. |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 5:28:03 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know I'll get flamed for this, but just because it's made in China doesn't make it shit. I'll have to agree a lot of China stuff is junk. I'd hate to piss in everyone's cornflakes, but there are some quality China products. With that said, the only thing I've ever bought that came from China for my ARs are a VG6 Epsilon Titanium (clone) and it wasn't cheap by any means @ $90. The reason why I didn't buy it here is because it is no longer available and this is the one I needed for my lightweight build I have a normal VG6 Epsilon to compare build/quality and it is literally exactly the same minus a logo. That would be an exception rather than the rule. A general rule for shooters new to the AR is the need to stay far away from the Chinese garbage. The wholesale sites are chock full of Chinese magpul knockoffs, lpks made from God-knows-what, and all other manner of ar parts. |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 5:46:44 PM EDT
[#41]
The matrix arms look pretty nice. Thanks for the heads up about the low profile gas block, because I haven't purchased one yet (don't have a barrel yet either).
Do you buy them from the Matrix arms site? Looks like joebobs (with good pricing) is OOS. In a few pages of Google search I can't find any other resellers of Matrix. CHAD |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 6:19:44 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The matrix arms look pretty nice. Thanks for the heads up about the low profile gas block, because I haven't purchased one yet (don't have a barrel yet either). Do you buy them from the Matrix arms site? Looks like joebobs (with good pricing) is OOS. In a few pages of Google search I can't find any other resellers of Matrix. CHAD http://www.chandlerhardwoods.com/category-s/1837.htm I've made several purchases from them. Buy with confidence if they have what you're looking for. |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 6:47:20 PM EDT
[#43]
I have always loved Midwest Industries rails. Just ordered their G3-SSM. Really can't beat a US made rail for $160 ( 10.5" price). No up charge for FDE either
.
https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=2497 |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 9:16:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.chandlerhardwoods.com/category-s/1837.htm I've made several purchases from them. Buy with confidence if they have what you're looking for. Do you know if their USA gas block will fit under the Matrix? CHAD |
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Posted: 3/19/2016 9:28:02 PM EDT
[#45]
I assume so as they sell assembled uppers, but look them up on Facebook and send them a direct message they are very responsive.
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Posted: 3/19/2016 9:34:52 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I assume so as they sell assembled uppers, but look them up on Facebook and send them a direct message they are very responsive. FB. Great idea. CHAD |
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Posted: 4/9/2016 11:19:02 PM EDT
[#47]
So I did pick up a Matrix Victor from chandlerhardwoods.com, and it arrived today. After contacting Chandler via facebook, their USA made gas block fits under this guard, so I ordered it too (and a gas tube). Next month it's a barrel and muzzle device, then she can shoot:
CHAD |
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Posted: 5/6/2016 1:25:20 PM EDT
[#48]
FWIW, I contacted Matrix today to ask about torque specs for the three hex screws that attach the handguard. The engineer said 'hand tight is fine, but if you need a number, 25 in-lb". They also recommended against Loctite on those screws.
CHAD |
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Posted: 5/6/2016 2:03:24 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FWIW, I contacted Matrix today to ask about torque specs for the three hex screws that attach the handguard. The engineer said 'hand tight is fine, but if you need a number, 25 in-lb". They also recommended against Loctite on those screws. CHAD Hand tight after cleaning and degreasing works fine for the Matrix hand guards. Loctite will result in broken screws or at least did in my case. |
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Posted: 5/6/2016 3:24:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hand tight after cleaning and degreasing works fine for the Matrix hand guards. Loctite will result in broken screws or at least did in my case. Cleaning and degreasing? This thing is dry as a bone. CHAD |
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