I've been seeing a lot of posts with "80% lower for $x," etc, and they all seem to be pointing to Rockethub projects.  I thought I would take a minute and list all of them I have found.  Perhaps as new ones come up they can be added.
***********************************************************************************************************************************************
POLL: A lot of people seem to be commenting on the general idea, not on specific offers.  While that was not the intent of this thread, it's as good a place as any.  But in order to save bandwidth I made a poll with the responses I've seen most.  YOU CAN PICK MULTIPLES.  Have fun.

***********************************************************************************************************************************************
Update 05/02/2013: Added 2 more
Update 05/09/2013: Added 3 more, comments on crowdfunding and risk
Update 05/16/2013: Added 1 more, Comments on Coalbank, changed listing order
Update 05/23/2013: Added 1 more, Moved Coalbank to bottom (their listing is gone from Rockethub)
Update 06/03/2013: Added 2 more, changed status on completed offers, changed order
Update 06/13/2013: Added 4 more, changed status on completed orders, changed order
Update 06/21/2013: Added 2 more, changed status on completed orders, grouped lowers by status
Update 06/28/2013: Added 3 more, flagged 3 offers
Update 07/08/2013: No additions, changed status on completed offers, 2 offers disappeared
Update 07/19/2013: Added 4 more, flagged 2, changed status on completed offers, 1 offer disappeared
Update 07/26/2013: No new projects, changed some descriptions, rearranged the order to reflect the Rockethub search, 1 offer disappeared
Update 08/07/2013: Added 2 more (both flagged), changed status on completed offers
Update 08/23/2013: Added 4 more, changed status on completed offers, 1 offer disappeared, rearranged the order to reflect the Rockethub search
Update 09/03/2013: Added 2 more, rearranged the order to reflect the Rockethub search
Update 09/12/2013: No new projects, changed status on 1 completed offer, rearranged the order to reflect the Rockethub search
Update 09/30/2013: Added 1 more, changed status on 4 completed offers, rearranged the order to reflect the Rockethub search
***********************************************************************************************************************************************

OPEN
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AR15 AR10 80 LOWER 80% LOWERS 1911 10/22 1022 AND AR10 JIG AR15 JIGS
Sponsor: Precision Arms MFG
Cost: $45 (Unfinished)
Note: Billet, 6061, non-standard trigger guard.  This is a third  go-round with this company.

AR15 80% Lower
Sponsor: Combat Machine
Cost: $25, no other info
Note: Billet

Battle Born Tactics
Sponsor: Battle Born Tactics
Cost: $35, in the white
Note: Billet, 7075

Help support Tactical Edge Arms in preserving our 2nd amendment rights
Sponsor: Tactical Edge Arms
Cost: $70, Anodized
Note: Billet, non standard trigger guard

***********************************************************************************************************************************************

CLOSED
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Support Open Source Rapid Prototyping of 80% Lowers
Sponsor: 2ND AM ARMS
Cost: $50
Note: Closed, here for record purposes and possible feedback

Forged or Billet 80% Lower Receivers AR10/AR15 & Jigs
Sponsor: 2nd AM Arms
Cost: $50
Note: Forged, 2nd go round

AR-15 80% lower
Sponsor: The Gun Vault LLC
Cost: $35, 7075 in the white
Note: Billet, non standard trigger guard

Fund the purchase of a mill to allow people to mill their own 80% lower! Get Your 80% lower
Sponsor:Civilian Defense Systems
Cost: $75 7075 in the white
Note: "We plan providing our customers with the equipment they need to finish milling there very own 80% AR15 lower."

Support AR15 80% lower
Sponsor: Sierra Nevada Arms
Cost: $35 (Jig for $30)
Note: Closed, here for record purposes and possible feedback


AR-15 and m590/500 80% lowers
Sponsor: Adapting Arms
Cost: $35 , 7076
Note: Appears to be a re-list of a closed, suspect offer.  Also offerring 1911 and shotgun (?!?!) frames.

AR15 Upper Receivers & 80% Lower Receivers & 3D Printed Jigs
Sponsor: Red One Armory, Inc.
Cost: $50 $55 in the white
Note: Also has uppers. Added jigs 06/28/2013 Closed 07/12/2013 with only 3 funders

80% Billet Lower Receiver by Custom Built Arms ~WHOLESALE FOR A CAUSE~
Sponsor: Custom Built Arms
Cost: $125 (Finished)
Note: Closed, here for record purposes and possible feedback

A.D Tactical - Precision milled billet AR15 Lower Receiver
Sponsor: A.D. Tactical
Cost: $65, 7075 in the white
Note: Billet, non standard trigger guard. 09/12/2013: Closed with 1 pledge

80% Lowers- Dunn Family Arms
Sponsor: Dunn Family Arms
Cost: $35 , 7075 forged, in the white
Note: "Family business expanding into the growing demand of AR15's..."

80% Lower Receiver AR15 / AR10 / RUDIUS 1911
Sponsor: Pebble Peak
Cost: $3025 (comes with jig and anodized in the white)
Note: Closed, here for record purposes and possible feedback

AR15 Upper Receivers, .308 AR Uppers & 80% 308 AR Lowers by NW Precision
Sponsor: Northwest Precision
Cost: $35 Stripped Upper in the white, $35 AR15 Lower Jig
Note: Jigs, AR15 Uppers, 308 Uppers, and 80% 308 Lowers

80% Ruger 10/22 & AR15 BILLET LOWER RECEIVERS Support the 2nd Ammendment - SECOND OFFERING
Sponsor: Precision Arms MFG
Cost: $25 (Unfinished)
Note: Billet, 6061, non-standard trigger guard.  This is a second go-round with this company. 07/26/2013 - added DPMS pattern AR10 stuff

AR-10 80% Billet lower receiver
Sponsor: Keith Matthews
Cost: $45 Stripped lower with grip, in the white
Note: AR10, not AR15. Same as Matthews Carbine Company above

AR15 Upper Receivers & 80% Lower Jigs by NorthWest Precision
Sponsor: Northwest Precision
Cost: $35 Stripped Upper in the white, $35 AR15 Lower Jig
Note: Makes jugs and uppers, not lowers  Closed 07/13/2013

AR Lower 80% manufacturing
Sponsor: Andres Olivares A&A Guns
Cost: $35
Note: Also offers stainless (?). Looks the same as above.  Changed name by 06/2102013.

80% Ruger 10/22 & AR15 BILLET LOWER RECEIVERS Support the 2nd Ammendment
Sponsor: Precision Arms MFG
Cost: $25 (Unfinished)
Note: Closed, here for record purposes and possible feedback

AR 80% Lowers
Sponsor: Adapting Arms (Andres Olivares)
Cost: $35
Note: Identical listing as before, just under a different category.

AR Lower 80% manufacturing and several other 80% production
Sponsor: A&A Guns
Cost: $37
Note: Relist of a closed suspect listing.  Also had 1911 and blueprints (?!?!)


ar15 and 1911 80% recievers
Sponsor: Adapting Arms
Cost: $35
Note: Appears to be a re-list of a closed, suspect offer.  Also offering 1911 frames.


AR 80% Lowers
Sponsor: Adapting Arms (Andres Olivares)
Cost: $35
Note: Very light on details, also offering 1911 frames and AR15 jigs.

Support The Lion's Armory & Veterans By Preserving Our 2nd Amendment Rights
Sponsor: The Lion's Armory
Cost: $55 in the white
Note: 6061

Support Affordable Firearms Parts With 80% AK-47 Receivers (80% Lowers)
Sponsor: Resistance Arms LLC
Cost: $15
Note: AK Receiver Flats - came and went very quickly

Support Black Rifle Industries in preserving YOUR 2A rights!
Sponsor: Blackrifle Industries
Cost: $65 (Unfinished)
Note: 6061 Closed, here for record purposes and possible feedback

Help support Fealty Arms in preserving our 2nd amendment rights
Sponsor: Fealty Arms
Cost: $65
Note: Plain Jane Closed, here for record purposes and possible feedback

Support Brooklyn Tactical Industries and protect your constitutional rights
Sponsor: Brooklyn Tactical Industries
Cost: $65 (Choice of anodized or in the white?)
Note: 7075 CNC

Supporting U.S. 2nd Amendments Rights to bear arms
Sponsor: Customgunwerks
Cost: $95 $50 7075 Billet, in the white
Note: Non standard (trigger guard), looks like an individual

Rolling Freedom
Sponsor: "Rolling Freedom"
Cost: $40 with CNC setup
Note: CNC machine on a trailer. "Just press the button" setup, cash only "flash build" parties.  
***********************************************************************************************************************************************

"SPECIAL"
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AR15 Upper Receivers, AR308 Uppers & 80% 308 AR Lowers by NW Precision
Sponsor: Northwest Precision
Cost: $40 Stripped Upper in the white
Note: Jigs, AR15 Uppers, 308 Uppers, and 80% 308 Lowers

***********************************************************************************************************************************************

WITHDRAWN
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Support the Manufacture and Sales of AR Lowers
Sponsor: Coalbank Metal Works
Cost: $59 (Finished)
Note: Listing pulled before completion (see comments below)

Manufacturing and Promoting Sales of 80% Lowers
Sponsor: Upstate Tactical
Cost: $100 6061 in the white
Note: Startup 07/08/2013 Project disappeared from Rockethub

Custom AR-15 start up
Sponsor: "Tactical Advantage"
Cost: $50 ("80% milled lower")
Note: Startup 07/08/2013 Project disappeared from Rockethub

Billet AR15 80% Lower Receiver
Sponsor: Matthews Carbine Company
Cost: $115
Note: Non standard trigger guard, in the white.  07/19/2013 Project disappeared from Rockethub

Support A start up Free American Arms We defend the 2nd amendment
Sponsor: Free American Arms (William Trueblood)
Cost: $90, cast aluminum
Note: Casting and milling in house, looks like an individual. 07/26/2013 Project disappeared from Rockethub

80% Lower receiver Manufacturing AR&1911
Sponsor: A&A Guns
Cost: $30
Note: Relist of a closed suspect listing.  10/22 receivers 08/23/2013 Project disappeared from Rockethub
***********************************************************************************************************************************************

A NOTE ABOUT CROWD FUNDING:
From Wikipedia:


From the Rockethub Press Kit:


Crowdfunding sites like Rockethub exist to foster charitable funds and startup investments.  These investments, BY THEIR NATURE, are risky.  The site is NOT a storefront; neither the site, nor the project sponsors, are subject to the Uniform Commercial Code.  You are making an investment, and the potential payback on that investment is an 80% lower.  Note "potential" payback.  It is the same as if you invested $1000 in Pets.com stock expecting to get $2000 back.  Pets.come investors lost their investment and didn't have anything to show for it, and that is ENTIRELY possible here as well.  Please keep that in mind.

I would like to keep this thread focused on the individual offers and their backers; this is for investment research, like the posts on Coalbanks.  Generalized comments on the crowdfunding model aren't really that useful.


***********************************************************************************************************************************************
Coalbanks Metal Works: Long "explanation" on RH page.  Says that, due to an NDA with his current business partners he could not give detailed information., as well as some other stuff.  Per the post: "Everyone will get their money back from Rocket Hub. "  There are no details on how that will occur, but the following is Rockethub's contact information:




***********************************************************************************************************************************************
06/28/2013: Andres Olivares has 3 projects up, 2 are duplicate but listed in separate categories, 1 *was* a duplicate but was modified and the name changed.  I normally just put down the listing information, but this seems shady enough to call out individually.  They are listed in red.  As always, CAVEAT EMPTOR.

07/19/2013: Andres Olivares posted 2 more, including name change.  Listed in red.

Any feedback on these? Inquiring minds want to know.

I ponied up for the Pebble Peak $30 special. It sounded too good to be true, but it was cheap enough that the risk was acceptable. I'll post back when it comes in. If ever.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I've participated in the sierra nevada arms and Fealty Arms offers.  No idea if they'll come through, but figured it was worth the risk.  I'll probably get an 80% AR10 style lower from pebble peak as well.
 

What is the difference between 6061 and  7075 T6 aluminum?  The first one makes 6061 lowers.  Is the Pebblecreek price worth the jig that comes with it should the 6061 aluminum not be up to task?

Mil spec is 7075 and it is stronger than 6061.  Most billet lowers are 6061 and most rails are 6061 (Daniel Defense, Centurion, etc.).  I wouldn't have a problem using a 6061 lower.  As long as it is machined correctly there shouldn't be any problems.

Actually, the first one (Pebble Peak) is using 7075, not 6061. Their jig though will be made out of plastic. I threw $85 at them to get all three with jigs, but I can't see how they can supply them at that cost. I'm assuming the jigs might be one-time use.

A jig made of plastic?  A jig to make a real jig from?  A little disappointing.

I'm guessing price point and one time use. Probably better to call it a pattern rather than a jig. But I didn't see mention of the jig material on the site.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

From the Conversations tab...

So what's everyone's gt feeling on these? Who do you think the best choice would be? I'm leaning toward Sierra Nevada for the price point and fact I can finish it how I want.

Tag for that pebble peak. I'll be backing these guys when I get home.

How is it that you only have to drill out 9 holes? I thought the FCG pocket had to be left unmilled for it to be an 80% lower?

That 9 holes comment was in reference to their 1911 frame, not an AR lower.

Earlier today I  went to the site and talked to the folks at Rocketweb about the validity of the projects offered there.  I had contributed money to one project and was trying to find out what would happen if the project went south.  At my request they refunded my money. The rocketweb folks seem to be a straight up bunch of guys, but some of the proposals are a little to "iffy" to suit me.  When a facebook page is created and gone in a couple of days it' s a red flag to me.  Here is the link, I chime in near the bottom of page 2.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/610933_Chance_to_get__35_80__lowers____.html&page=1

Caveat Emptor.

The Pebble Peak $30 Early Bird special is no longer available.  The next cheapest is the Sierra Nevada.

I threw down for the Sierra Nevada 2 pack.

I think its worth the risk at that price point. I spend more than that at the bar on a weekend, so I'll just stay in for a change.

I went with the Pebble Peak $25 in the raw with jig. I am just going to forget I ordered it and be like xmas in July. I will also post my thoughts when it arrives.

Is it me or has that thread disappeared?

The Mods probably deleted it due to it being a duplicate thread.  My advice still stands.  Contribute what you are willing to risk.  The Rocketbub folks told me that me that if the project leader doesn't follow through on the promises, there is no recourse through them.  I did contribute to another project, but I only contributed what I felt I could live with if I never got anything from the project leader.

as to RH projects not delivering...


If their goal is a quick rip off  of 30k, then the money could very well be gone.  

But if the goal is to start legitimate production of 80% lowers, then I have to believe that they will do everything in their power to meet the commitment of the project.  For them, it would be fantastic if the kickstart project could 1) better outfit their shop, 2) lower the cost of supplies through economies of scale and 3) create a name for themselves (good or bad, depending how the project goes). If they are legit, this could be their big break, and they won't squander it.


Personally, I plan to order a lower from every one of these places.  If some come through, great. I honestly think it would be a great thing to put some smaller shops into production. The more the better.  It further entrenches the AR and makes it more difficult to control/ban/create shortages.

Now if we could just get some shop to start cranking out bolts & barrel extensions, we'd be in business.

In on the pebble cause its cheap. One thing that concerns me is the $25 contribution says ar10 in main description but ar15 in the fund page. Either way awesome deal but I really want an ar10.

Pebble Creek is offering both and AR10 and an AR15. Make sure you contributed to the right one. They are also offering a 1911 80% frame.

In for two of the ar10s the goods shows the pic of the ar10 and says ar10 but the goods description says ar15. So I'm going with they forgot to change the number after a copy and paste.

tag for updates

Ordered a few AR15/AR10 lowers from Pebble Creek. At the price point it worth giving it a shot. Rockethub is pretty good about refunds if necessary.

I have been working on validating the Coal Banks metal works offering. So far it's looking like your garden variety scam.  They refuse to post contact information and they did give a physical address which turned out to be a mail forwarding service.  They do not have a business license or  phone number in the town they are claiming they are in. They keep tap dancing around the requests for proof that the company exists outside of Rockethub and Facebook.  They have had two sockpuppets come on and say what swell guys they are while  declining to answer questions. They are now getting nasty about people asking questions which is par for the course when you expose a fraud.   It is my opinion, that Coal Banks Metal Works is a fraudulent listing on Rockethub, and you will see nothing from them.  Rockethub will refund your money but if the offering closes or doesn't meet it's goal, then there is no recourse to get your money back.

Careful with the accusations.   It might be difficult to distinguish between a scam and a poorly thought out business plan.

I've pledged to both Coalbank and Pebble Peak. Will let everyone know how things go, though, I might be on the trailing end of production so you may all receive word from those early birds.

Long story short I my wife knows one of the guys from Sierra Nevada arms and he is supposed to be a good dude who knows what he is doing.  They are local to the Reno area for anyone who lives around here.  Their price gets cheaper with volume up to the point of 4 lowers for $100.  They said if you wait till next week a new offer will be made that will include a Jig but they didn't mention if the new offer will go up in price or not.  Can't beat $25 each so I am down for 4.

BTW, I have pledged to Pebble Peak.    In a nutshell, I think it will take more time than they are planning, and that they will make next to nothing.  If they succeed, they will come out of this with a good name/rep.

At first, I thought that there is no way that they can do this for $25 or $30.  But then someone in the PP project posted a link that shows that 7075 AR15 forgings can be had for $20.  I suspect that the price is even lower when you are purchasing thousands. Still, it means they are making practically nothing on the $25/30 receivers, and not that much on the others.    

And it is going to be a heck of a job, too.  Yesterday, I computed that they had sold upwards of 1125 receivers.  Today, they added a hundred more.   I don't know how many folks are in their shop, but I have to wonder if they can really churn out one or two thousand  receivers in just a few weeks.

If they pull this off and the receivers are within spec,  I'll be happy (even if it takes an extra month to get them out!).

Hi guys. 1st post here on the forum. Glad to be here. I saw these offers on instagram and got in for 2 Fealty arms units. Never had an AR in my life, but figured it would be a fun project for my father and I. Expected delivery was early July so I'm just sitting tight for now. Will get some pics when/if they come.

After asking  repeatedly for contact information (phone number, business location) and so on, they have failed to respond.  After the address that they claimed for their office, turned out be a mail forwarding business they basically clammed up.   A call to their  city office found that there wasn't any business license issued for Coal Banks Metal Works and a review of the city yellow and blue pages does not show a listing for that office.  Remember these are the folks who stated that they are an existing business who are looking to expand.  There is no evidence outside of Rockethub and a facebook page that the business exists at all.   When I talked to the CEO of Rockethub, he told me it was up to the investor to  check and evaluate each offering. Rockethub does not guarantee they are not a scam. Once the project is closed the money goes to the project leader and it is up to the investor to either get the promised product or their money back. It is my opinion, based on what I have seen so far that Coal Banks Metal Works is a scam. I have been on the board of directors of our local credit union for years and our credit union sees new scams coming out almost daily that affect our members.  The Coal Banks offering has all the hallmarks of a scam as I see it.

Ask yourself this, if someone showed up at your door and asked you for money to help them out, and promised to return that money at a later date, but declined to give you their phone number, or address where they could be  reached how willing would you be to give them money?. This situation is no different, it's called doing "due diligence", it's nothing more than any financial agency would do if you wanted money from them. Just because they are offering AR-15 products is no reason to suspend critical thinking and judgement.

Tag for the upcoming disappointment.

Per the offering

They are doing billet receivers, so the material prices are substantially lower.  Not defending them per se, just want clarify.

Entirely possible.   I suspect that these first few crowdfunding experiments will test whether they will fly.  All of these could be scams!  I figure I could risk up the the purchase price of one brand new lower at todays price.

Frankly, if *anything* workable to build a gun arrives at my door, I won't be disappointed.  I am not sure all who are funding a project are thinking like this. If not, there WILL be disappointment and knashing of teeth!

I will admit, I thought about the possibility of it being "crap" construction. Never even passed through my mind about a scam until reading in here. I did some reading and looking at fealty arms (who I ordered from) and pretty much decided to jump on merely because they seemed honest. I know that's not the best decision I have made, but I'm not too worried though as like prev stated I will not be out by much. The price of one man. lower. Hopefully for everyone involved these companies will get their product and they will be of good quality. All I can do is cross my fingers, say a prayer, and wait.

I got in on the Sierra Nevada Arms 4 pack offer on the second day I think. Was number 64 in line for the 4-pack, and 120ish overall. Eh, it was a 100 dollar gamble.

I just had a lengthy conversation with Jed Cohen, Founder & COO of rockethub. He assured me that they did due diligence on the identity of T.E. Brown (Of the Coalbank Metal Works RH project) and verified that the company was properly incorporated. He stated that he had spoken with him and ensured everything was correct before allowing the project to go public. However, they didn't verify any presence of machine shop, or any physical presence, only T.E. Brown's identity and the incorporation of his company.

Jed informed me that the machine shop time was being "borrowed" and they don't actually own a machine shop, but there was some sort of agreement in place, out of the scope of rocket hub, and that's how the items were being manufactured. He gladly refunded my contribution after our discussion.


Hope this info helps everyone.

I have funded a couple of different 80% projects. However it is a real gamble and do not gamble more than you are willing to lose. If a product shows up then you won. Hopefully it is of good quality than you hit the jackpot.

Where's the beef??  Show me the lowers not vaporware.

This in from Pebble Peak in response to my questions.

Hello Julie & Mark,


I don't know if you would call us a 100% established business. We started doing receivers around 8 months ago as a hobby out of garage and started selling them at street fairs, we gained a bit of momentum so we later decided to try our luck and sell them online and we have been selling them at pebblepeak.com ever since. We are located in Imperial, California and we have an ein to pay our 2 less than part time employees, they mostly do it to help out and build a bigger brand along with me. We are extremely happy with our success and seems we will be doing this as a full time business after the campaign is over.


Thanks for your support,
Art

At least the guy had the courtesy to respond rather promptly to me.  I will give him that. That's better than Coal Banks ever did.

I appreciate you posting this. What it means is that all Rockethub verified is that T.E. Brown exists and that his company was incorporated (through an address located in a mail forwarding business).  No real shop as he had described.  I hope you post this on the Coal Banks page to make other investors aware.

I see train wreck ahead!!!  This is not the way legitimate businesses operate.

Anyone know what state Coal Bank Metal Works is from? They purposefully conceal all information.

Taken from the conversations section of his offering.

"Yes we used Wyoming EZ Corp for doing our paperwork, and yes they are forwarding our mail. Considering we have repeatedly said we are keeping our business address private, do you think it would make sense for us to put that address on public record?"

Also read the posting above where the Rockethub CEO states Coal Banks is  "borrowing machine time". I.E. they don't have a shop, but in their project description they state they are an established shop.

What you have is an offering where there isn't a shop, the project leader is using a mail forwarding service for his address, and once he gets the money from Rockethub, it is his, and the investors have to deal with the project leader to get their money back.   T.E. Brown wants your money, but refuses to give any one his business address or contact information, and is using an account in a mail forwarding service that can be closed at any time.

When someone is asking you for money and is purposely refusing to provide legitimate contact information such as phone numbers and addresses and has lied in their project description, only a fool would think it might be a legitimate offering.

I gave Pebble Peak a chance.

Precision Arms MFG and Pebble Peak have a few bucks from me. I'll be happy if either one comes through.

I took a risk on the Sierra Nevada Arms one.  Will just have to see how this comes out.

http://www.rockethub.com/projects/25415-80-ruger-10-22-ar15-billet-lower-receivers-support-the-2nd-ammendment#description-tab

 

Leaning that way myself.  After reading the FAQ, really not a big fan of the concept.  

FAQ

There is absolutely no protection for the people who donate, yet the project starter can keep the money.   Of course RocketHub gets there 4 to 8% commission and 4% CC fees.