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Basic
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Posted: 1/30/2011 7:05:51 PM EST
Scrolled through the "Trigger comparison " thread but didn't really find an answer to this question......Who makes the best "combat" trigger for a semi-auto AR?
It would seem a clean breaking trigger with a very short reset for quick follow-up shots (i.e. double or triple taps) as offered by the ATC Gold would be optimum, but the drop-in units from Wilson, Timney, and others hold promise.

I'm interested in your opinions. What would your requirements be for a trigger group to suit this purpose? Single or double stage, pull wght, letoff, etc?

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Link Posted: 1/30/2011 7:29:29 PM EST
fighting trigger should be milspec weight and such.. IMO.

I think the Spikes Battle trigger is hard to beat in that respect.

But i have heard good things about the new wilson one.
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Link Posted: 1/30/2011 7:44:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By durabo:
fighting trigger should be milspec weight and such.. IMO.

I think the Spikes Battle trigger is hard to beat in that respect.

But i have heard good things about the new wilson one.
Concur, the Spikes trigger is consistent and simple.

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Link Posted: 1/30/2011 9:07:56 PM EST
Don't fight the trigger.
Get a SSA
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Link Posted: 1/31/2011 3:11:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 3:13:24 AM EST by YaNi05]
Originally Posted By durabo:
fighting trigger should be milspec weight and such.. IMO.


The Magpul Dynamics instructors run milspec trigger groups in their carbines. You can shoot damn fast with a parts kit FCG. I'd spend the money on more ammo and training.
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Link Posted: 1/31/2011 8:26:50 AM EST
Wilson Combat TTU. You won't be sorry.
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Link Posted: 1/31/2011 8:44:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By YaNi05:
Originally Posted By durabo:
fighting trigger should be milspec weight and such.. IMO.


The Magpul Dynamics instructors run milspec trigger groups in their carbines. You can shoot damn fast with a parts kit FCG. I'd spend the money on more ammo and training.
Skill > Gear


Fisher had an S3G at the last class I took with them.

If you want reliability, stick with mil-spec or a variant of it such as the spikes coated trigger, or pick up something from Geiselle.

How many failures have you heard reported about geiselle? I've heard one, that was due to a known metallurgical problem that geiselle put an announcement out about. Thats it. I've heard of failures of virtually every other trigger out there, more than once.
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Link Posted: 1/31/2011 9:05:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 9:06:37 AM EST by Lakemoor]
Anybody have experience with this one:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XMTT801B&name=Mega+Arms+Tactical+Trigger&groupid=103

I would think this one would be nice, but I haven't heard anything about it and I don't want to be Mr. Guinea Pig.

edit: Most reliable would be a stock mil spec trigger/hammer but jeez that combo is the sux
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Link Posted: 1/31/2011 10:26:10 AM EST
I'm perfectly fine with plain jain stock triggers. They work well for me.
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Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:48:46 PM EST
FYI Both the Geissele SSF and SSA triggers have received the Crane NSWC Safety Certification.
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Link Posted: 1/31/2011 2:01:30 PM EST
OK. This is what I understand form reading various posts and comments here.

geiselle... great trigger

Timney... great trigger

Wilson TTU great trigger.

On Rainier arms there is a video of the Mega trigger... looks like it works well.

Spikes Enhanced Trigger ... works wonders.

It al depends what you want to pay.

I am going to buy a TTU .... for one Ar... A spikes for another and a Mega for another ... and see
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Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:08:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By Striker071:
OK. This is what I understand form reading various posts and comments here.

geiselle... great trigger

Timney... great trigger

Wilson TTU great trigger.

On Rainier arms there is a video of the Mega trigger... looks like it works well.

Spikes Enhanced Trigger ... works wonders.

It al depends what you want to pay.

I am going to buy a TTU .... for one Ar... A spikes for another and a Mega for another ... and see


Aside from the Mega which I've seen nothing about, the only triggers up there that I haven't seen posts of failures are the geiselle's and the spikes.

IMHO, those are the only "great" triggers that I will consider. Every other one up there has had reports of issues (again aside from the mega, which I'm unfamiliar with).
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Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:43:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Originally Posted By Striker071:
OK. This is what I understand form reading various posts and comments here.

geiselle... great trigger

Timney... great trigger

Wilson TTU great trigger.

On Rainier arms there is a video of the Mega trigger... looks like it works well.

Spikes Enhanced Trigger ... works wonders.

It al depends what you want to pay.

I am going to buy a TTU .... for one Ar... A spikes for another and a Mega for another ... and see


Aside from the Mega which I've seen nothing about, the only triggers up there that I haven't seen posts of failures are the geiselle's and the spikes.

IMHO, those are the only "great" triggers that I will consider. Every other one up there has had reports of issues (again aside from the mega, which I'm unfamiliar with).


In the interest of full disclosure, recently a member here received a spikes battle trigger set, and it was all chunked up and started doubling on him. Then it was replaced with one from spikes that "looked" chunked up too, but he had no problems with... spikes gave him a full refund after a bit of a long period of time (although SHOT was going on and i don't think the member was actually CALLING or emailing anyone frequently about the issues, just posting here)

Seemed to be a QC issue mostly, a couple bad ones slipped out.

That is the ONLY time ive heard anything bad about them, I own one myself and would trust my life to it.
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Link Posted: 1/31/2011 5:33:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By durabo:
Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Originally Posted By Striker071:
OK. This is what I understand form reading various posts and comments here.

geiselle... great trigger

Timney... great trigger

Wilson TTU great trigger.

On Rainier arms there is a video of the Mega trigger... looks like it works well.

Spikes Enhanced Trigger ... works wonders.

It al depends what you want to pay.

I am going to buy a TTU .... for one Ar... A spikes for another and a Mega for another ... and see


Aside from the Mega which I've seen nothing about, the only triggers up there that I haven't seen posts of failures are the geiselle's and the spikes.

IMHO, those are the only "great" triggers that I will consider. Every other one up there has had reports of issues (again aside from the mega, which I'm unfamiliar with).


In the interest of full disclosure, recently a member here received a spikes battle trigger set, and it was all chunked up and started doubling on him. Then it was replaced with one from spikes that "looked" chunked up too, but he had no problems with... spikes gave him a full refund after a bit of a long period of time (although SHOT was going on and i don't think the member was actually CALLING or emailing anyone frequently about the issues, just posting here)

Seemed to be a QC issue mostly, a couple bad ones slipped out.

That is the ONLY time ive heard anything bad about them, I own one myself and would trust my life to it.


I'll stick with SSA on this type of weapon
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Link Posted: 2/25/2011 9:34:01 PM EST
Please forgive me for taking so long to get back to this thread, I was researching triggers. Thanks for all the replies.
If one is to believe the marketing on the "drop-in cartridge type" trigger groups ( Wilson, ATC, Timney, et al) one of their big advantages is the ability to retain proper geometry and parts relationship even if your lower is out of spec. This would seem an important feature, at first blush, but if your trigger and hammer pin holes are far enough off to affect operation how would you ever be able to line up the pins to fit through the cartridge trigger?
How often is a quality lower out of spec? Anyone ever have this problem? Severe enough to cause malfunction or doubling?

I ask because the feedback to my original post favors the Spikes or Geiselle SSA component trigger groups, which would be susceptible to this misalignment (if it exists). No mention is made of the ATC Gold (maybe it's too new) and the Wilson and Timney are referred to as having suffered failures.
Some suggest staying with mil-spec components, but I'm dubious. I've clamped down on what seems like a hundred "krunchenticker" mil-spec atrocities and remain un-enthused over their contribution to precision rifle work. Is the Spikes' dramatically better/smoother? I realize that price and reliability are the other two legs of the equation but what are the choices offered there.....spend $300 on a piece of fragile clockwork, or get a "reliable" trigger that feels like one of those springy things for building grip strength. Is there a smooth AR trigger out there that works like a tuned 1911 trigger? That is, consistent, with a super-short reset so, as the sights come back on target, the smallest movement throws another stone?

I'm sorry this missive has become so wordy, but I really think these manufacturers do us a disservice when they market their "greater" product to us without objectively telling us what makes it greater!

So how 'bout it, what does the Spikes do?
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Link Posted: 2/26/2011 5:24:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By 2tonic:

So how 'bout it, what does the Spikes do?
All I can speak to is my personal experience with it. The Spikes unit was purchased to meet a very specific goal, in that I was building a simple 16" piston fighting carbine, concentrating on combat reliability. With that criteria in mind I know I wanted a "stone-age simple", single stage trigger that provided smooth consistent pull around 5-6 pounds and reliable ignition with surplus ammo. The Spikes does that perfectly, the boron nickle coating on mine provides that smoothness I need, there is no grittiness, almost no creep, and the reset is short. So far I the round count is only about 1K, but the characteristics have remained consistent.

I don't know if this is helpful. This really is my only non-tweaked or match trigger in any of my builds, but if I was looking to build a "fighting" rifle vice a "match" rifle, this trigger would be my first choice.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2011 9:08:14 AM EST
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Link Posted: 2/26/2011 6:27:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2011 6:35:37 PM EST by Mccray]
I asked the same question a week ago and was told the Geiselle S3G(Super 3 Gun) fits all of my criteria(the same as yours). From what I gather It's a non-adjustable hybrid single stage/2stage semi -auto version of their FA combat trigger. They claim it has a short smooth pull and ultra fast reset for follow ups.

"A description of the S3G pull:
1. The shooter starts pulling the trigger as his sights become aligned on target.
2. At about 3.5 lbs., the trigger starts to move back smoothly, like it’s on ball bearings.
3. After the trigger moves a short distance, the weapon discharges. Nothing precedes the discharge: no second stage stop, no grittiness, no stacking of the trigger pull weight as the hammer is cammed down like on a stock AR15 trigger. The trigger finger feels a sensation of walking along a perfectly flat, glassy-smooth plateau that suddenly drops away.
4. After a short overtravel, the trigger is quickly reset when the shooter slightly relaxes his trigger finger and the next shot is ready to be fired without having to go back to the beginning of the trigger pull cycle. "

Just thought I would share these quotes from some reviews I've read.

"Super 3 Gun trigger has a super short trigger pull and a short reset so that rounds can be sent downrange as quickly as possible while still maintaining superb accuracy"

field tests have shown that the S3G can routinely and accurately deliver up to twelve shots on target in an amazing 1.6-1.9 seconds.


I would look into it if I were you... I'm gonna get one.
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Link Posted: 2/26/2011 7:36:23 PM EST
ar gold?
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Link Posted: 2/27/2011 4:43:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2011 4:43:44 AM EST by Mccray]
Originally Posted By VictorUnit:
ar gold?


yeah but do the have one that isn't "gold"?
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Link Posted: 3/1/2011 4:41:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mccray:
I asked the same question a week ago and was told the Geiselle S3G(Super 3 Gun) fits all of my criteria(the same as yours). From what I gather It's a non-adjustable hybrid single stage/2stage semi -auto version of their FA combat trigger. They claim it has a short smooth pull and ultra fast reset for follow ups.

"A description of the S3G pull:
1. The shooter starts pulling the trigger as his sights become aligned on target.
2. At about 3.5 lbs., the trigger starts to move back smoothly, like it’s on ball bearings.
3. After the trigger moves a short distance, the weapon discharges. Nothing precedes the discharge: no second stage stop, no grittiness, no stacking of the trigger pull weight as the hammer is cammed down like on a stock AR15 trigger. The trigger finger feels a sensation of walking along a perfectly flat, glassy-smooth plateau that suddenly drops away.
4. After a short overtravel, the trigger is quickly reset when the shooter slightly relaxes his trigger finger and the next shot is ready to be fired without having to go back to the beginning of the trigger pull cycle. "

Just thought I would share these quotes from some reviews I've read.

"Super 3 Gun trigger has a super short trigger pull and a short reset so that rounds can be sent downrange as quickly as possible while still maintaining superb accuracy"

field tests have shown that the S3G can routinely and accurately deliver up to twelve shots on target in an amazing 1.6-1.9 seconds.


I would look into it if I were you... I'm gonna get one.
I have one of these and its great took it to the my local gun shop and every one who worked there couldn't believe how sweet the pull was. Some of them say its one of the best AR triggers they have felt. Mine broke at 3#. I would try one of these and if you don't like I'm sure you can sell it.

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Link Posted: 3/1/2011 12:24:08 PM EST
Does Geiselle make a non adjustable single stage? I have no use for 2 stages or any type of adjustment in a trigger.
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Link Posted: 3/1/2011 3:06:47 PM EST
read up..the one that was just mentioned, the S3G is non adjustable and doesnt have a second stage "stop"
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Link Posted: 3/1/2011 3:14:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mccray:
read up..the one that was just mentioned, the S3G is non adjustable and doesnt have a second stage "stop"


Is a trigger designed for game gunning suitable for a fighting gun?
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Link Posted: 3/1/2011 3:29:34 PM EST
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Link Posted: 3/1/2011 3:53:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By Stickman:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By Mccray:
read up..the one that was just mentioned, the S3G is non adjustable and doesnt have a second stage "stop"


Is a trigger designed for game gunning suitable for a fighting gun?


It depends on who you ask, and what your preferences are.


You've been having good luck with the Wilson TTU, right?
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Link Posted: 3/1/2011 4:50:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/1/2011 4:50:36 PM EST by 3-gun]
"Fight" with what ya want, I'll fight with a Geissele DMR.
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Link Posted: 3/1/2011 5:44:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By 3-gun:
"Fight" with what ya want, I'll fight with a Geissele DMR.


It's an amazing trigger ain't it? I love mine.
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Link Posted: 3/1/2011 5:51:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By 3-gun:
"Fight" with what ya want, I'll fight with a Geissele DMR.


It's an amazing trigger ain't it? I love mine.


I'm about to pony up for my 2nd.
I never thought I would pay $300.00 for a trigger.
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Link Posted: 3/1/2011 7:56:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By 3-gun:
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By 3-gun:
"Fight" with what ya want, I'll fight with a Geissele DMR.


It's an amazing trigger ain't it? I love mine.



I never thought I would pay $300.00 for a trigger.


I thought the same. But now we both have one.
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Link Posted: 3/2/2011 5:38:04 PM EST
They aren't kidding about the fast reset on the S3G trigger. If you want to run this one as a working trigger, you better have very good trigger discipline. I wouldn't recommend it to someone with out them trying it first. For the newbies I think the SSA trigger is a better choice in a working trigger and the one I'd recommend without hesitation to anyone.
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Link Posted: 3/2/2011 10:24:15 PM EST
The S3G/SSA sound very interesting, I'll have to check my range or shops to see if someone has one I can try. What about the install? This was the other part of my question; Do the "cartridge" type triggers have an advantage over units with discreet parts. The claim is that the geometry is already perfected and set, so regardless of whose lower you throw it into the parts maintain the proper relationship for safe and consistent operation. How involved is the install of the Geiselle or Spikes? Does it require stoning or tweaking?
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Link Posted: 3/3/2011 6:22:21 AM EST
No stoning on the Geisselles. Just drop in and insert pins.
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Link Posted: 3/3/2011 9:24:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mute:
No stoning on the Geisselles. Just drop in and insert pins.

You might need to stone or file your safety with a GA trigger. Talking about the width of the the safety notch not the height.
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Link Posted: 3/3/2011 12:26:34 PM EST
Funny... We have been "fighting" with the stock GI trigger for well over 40+ years... and graveyards are full of dead bad guys who can attest to the lethality of the stock trigger, in the hands of some one who has the skill and the willingness to press it....

If you asking the question.... your don't have the one and are not ready to do the other...

It's not the equipment you should focus on....And you wouldn't be the first...
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Link Posted: 3/4/2011 3:33:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By Harv24:
It's not the equipment you should focus on....And you wouldn't be the first...


Actually I feel it's as important to focus on equipment as it is training so as to increase your effectiveness, efficiency, and lethality. The mentality of equipment is as important as training seems to also be catching on in the military from what I've seen. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure my rifle is better than the other guys and if that means my trigger allows me to shoot faster and longer well.....

It's like saying we shouldn't have made tanks in ww1 because we could have dug tunnels to the enemies trench's. (Which they were doing till the tank came along.)

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Link Posted: 3/4/2011 11:50:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By Harv24:
It's not the equipment you should focus on....And you wouldn't be the first...


Actually I feel it's as important to focus on equipment as it is training so as to increase your effectiveness, efficiency, and lethality. The mentality of equipment is as important as training seems to also be catching on in the military from what I've seen. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure my rifle is better than the other guys and if that means my trigger allows me to shoot faster and longer well.....

It's like saying we shouldn't have made tanks in ww1 because we could have dug tunnels to the enemies trench's. (Which they were doing till the tank came along.)



Well of course you do.....And you wouldn't be the first one to focus on the wrong thing.... Just the fact that you stated that equipment is just as important as training indicates your focus.

And yet I watch guys like you fumble fuck on a line and can't run a simple drill without going into epileptic seizures and break down into a quivering mass that then stop and just give up without finishing the drill, because they, like you , thought there equipment was going to do the brunt of the work for them.

When you can shoot like Hailey or Costa, on a pretty consistent basis, then maybe you can think about trying some higher end equipment...


Skill will always triumph over gear.... History has proven you wrong for millennium.
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Link Posted: 3/4/2011 1:13:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By Harv24:
It's not the equipment you should focus on....And you wouldn't be the first...


Actually I feel it's as important to focus on equipment as it is training so as to increase your effectiveness, efficiency, and lethality. The mentality of equipment is as important as training seems to also be catching on in the military from what I've seen. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure my rifle is better than the other guys and if that means my trigger allows me to shoot faster and longer well.....

It's like saying we shouldn't have made tanks in ww1 because we could have dug tunnels to the enemies trench's. (Which they were doing till the tank came along.)



Well of course you do.....And you wouldn't be the first one to focus on the wrong thing.... Just the fact that you stated that equipment is just as important as training indicates your focus. Obviously you read what I said but it went in one ear and out the other. My "focus" as you call it is both not one. I believe being equipped and trained in the best possible manner for the task I am doing. The basics are important and should always be practiced and improved but when it comes down to it you give an experienced shooter better an equipment he will perform even better. Maybe you need to consider being open minded instead of so narrow minded.

And yet I watch guys like you fumble fuck on a line and can't run a simple drill without going into epileptic seizures and break down into a quivering mass that then stop and just give up without finishing the drill, because they, like you , thought there equipment was going to do the brunt of the work for them. Huh? I never in a million years ever even implied that I believe my equipment could do the brunt of work. Now suddenly when someone has a gear malfunction all thought process stops and they become incapable of performing a simple task? All I can say is that's a real dumb ass thing to say because it's wrong. Some people might but most individuals I know would not react in the way you described.

When you can shoot like Hailey or Costa, on a pretty consistent basis, then maybe you can think about trying some higher end equipment...
So let me get this straight; unless I'm a tier one operator or whatever fancy bullshit you want to insert I'm not allowed to run anything but the basics or what you tell me to? Are you implying that you perform at this level? If so cool. Then you have the experience to determine what works for you as a shooter. What works for you might not work for me or the guy next to me.


Skill will always triumph over gear.... History has proven you wrong for millennium.
Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you there too. In many cases where the technological gap is such to where everyone is using similar stuff skill would play a big part. So if (lets make a hypothetical situation here) I gave you a gun stuck you in a forest and said kill me and I had access to IR goggles and aerial reconnaissance that used various IR equipment to scan for targets along with a rifle of my choosing and all you had was a rifle and some form of camouflage I would not have a clear advantage? What are you on crack?


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Link Posted: 3/4/2011 1:57:05 PM EST
I can see where both of you are coming from on this issue. Harv is basically trying to say that you can't buy skill you have to build it. If you are already on a higher skill level, then moving to the next step in gear my help you. If you have minimal training and minimal rounds downrange, buying a higher speed trigger is the not the answer to your problems. Obviously neither one of us know you personally so I have no idea where your proficiency level is and can not make any further statements regarding such.


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Link Posted: 3/4/2011 5:01:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By Harv24:
It's not the equipment you should focus on....And you wouldn't be the first...


Actually I feel it's as important to focus on equipment as it is training so as to increase your effectiveness, efficiency, and lethality. The mentality of equipment is as important as training seems to also be catching on in the military from what I've seen. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure my rifle is better than the other guys and if that means my trigger allows me to shoot faster and longer well.....

It's like saying we shouldn't have made tanks in ww1 because we could have dug tunnels to the enemies trench's. (Which they were doing till the tank came along.)


Your feeling has been found, Lacking.
Without BMI you would have problems mastering the basics.

Adding technology, equipment and unneeded parts without skill, will further complicate the process.

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Link Posted: 3/4/2011 6:02:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/4/2011 8:24:27 PM EST by Mccray]
Everyone has to start somewhere. If he wants to try out or attempt to master a 2 stage combat trigger he's not gonna do it by shooting with a stock trigger for 25 years. What do you need? An instructor to give you a double black belt in shitty stock trigger skillz b4 you can advance? It's a free country I say get the Geiselle or whatever and shoot the shit out of it. I wish I could afford a S3G
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Link Posted: 3/4/2011 7:04:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By 458winmag:
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By Harv24:
It's not the equipment you should focus on....And you wouldn't be the first...


Actually I feel it's as important to focus on equipment as it is training so as to increase your effectiveness, efficiency, and lethality. The mentality of equipment is as important as training seems to also be catching on in the military from what I've seen. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure my rifle is better than the other guys and if that means my trigger allows me to shoot faster and longer well.....

It's like saying we shouldn't have made tanks in ww1 because we could have dug tunnels to the enemies trench's. (Which they were doing till the tank came along.)


Your feeling has been found, Lacking.
Without BMI you would have problems mastering the basics.

Adding technology, equipment and unneeded parts without skill, will further complicate the process.

When I started shooting High Power I was using a rack grade M1 Garand. It didn't take me long to move up to a National Match built M1 Garand. I wanted my misses to be me not the rifle. A Master Blaster can make inferior equipment look better than it is.

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Link Posted: 3/5/2011 6:11:01 AM EST
I'm not advocating that one should not buy good equipment, but way too many folks want to buy there skill vs. earn it..I rarely run into folks who are actually good shooters... What I do run into are a lot of shooters who buy a shit load of aftermarket doodads to trick out there gun, and they have the skill set of a bag of Doritos...

I have rarely fired a gun that I was able to out shoot....most shooters fall in that category.... If you have the cash and the first think you want to do is drop $200 on a trigger vs. go hit the range and actually work on consistently applying the basic fundamentals.. knock yourselves out.... at the end of the day, it's your money ... your choice...

All I know is when someone starts asking .. What's the best combat >insert part here< There focusing on the wrong thing...

You asked for opinions...... there's one...
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Link Posted: 3/5/2011 2:26:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/5/2011 2:31:14 PM EST by Marksman14]
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By Harv24:
It's not the equipment you should focus on....And you wouldn't be the first...


Actually I feel it's as important to focus on equipment as it is training so as to increase your effectiveness, efficiency, and lethality. The mentality of equipment is as important as training seems to also be catching on in the military from what I've seen. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure my rifle is better than the other guys and if that means my trigger allows me to shoot faster and longer well.....

It's like saying we shouldn't have made tanks in ww1 because we could have dug tunnels to the enemies trench's. (Which they were doing till the tank came along.)



Well of course you do.....And you wouldn't be the first one to focus on the wrong thing.... Just the fact that you stated that equipment is just as important as training indicates your focus. Obviously you read what I said but it went in one ear and out the other. My "focus" as you call it is both not one. I believe being equipped and trained in the best possible manner for the task I am doing. The basics are important and should always be practiced and improved but when it comes down to it you give an experienced shooter better an equipment he will perform even better. Maybe you need to consider being open minded instead of so narrow minded.

And yet I watch guys like you fumble fuck on a line and can't run a simple drill without going into epileptic seizures and break down into a quivering mass that then stop and just give up without finishing the drill, because they, like you , thought there equipment was going to do the brunt of the work for them. Huh? I never in a million years ever even implied that I believe my equipment could do the brunt of work. Now suddenly when someone has a gear malfunction all thought process stops and they become incapable of performing a simple task? All I can say is that's a real dumb ass thing to say because it's wrong. Some people might but most individuals I know would not react in the way you described.

When you can shoot like Hailey or Costa, on a pretty consistent basis, then maybe you can think about trying some higher end equipment...
So let me get this straight; unless I'm a tier one operator or whatever fancy bullshit you want to insert I'm not allowed to run anything but the basics or what you tell me to? Are you implying that you perform at this level? If so cool. Then you have the experience to determine what works for you as a shooter. What works for you might not work for me or the guy next to me.


Skill will always triumph over gear.... History has proven you wrong for millennium.
Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you there too. In many cases where the technological gap is such to where everyone is using similar stuff skill would play a big part. So if (lets make a hypothetical situation here) I gave you a gun stuck you in a forest and said kill me and I had access to IR goggles and aerial reconnaissance that used various IR equipment to scan for targets along with a rifle of my choosing and all you had was a rifle and some form of camouflage I would not have a clear advantage? What are you on crack?




The last part you posted in red.

Can we start screening new members please?

For the record, Harv24 is right. Lots of people like to talk the talk, and yet when push comes to shove...they can't shoot for shit. I always get a chuckle out of the guys who show up wearing 1000 dollars worth of cool guy gear with a 3500 dollar rifle who get outshot by a fat kid with a DPMS and irons...because the kid goes out there and trains.

A good class WILL do you more good than any trigger out there. That being said, if you want to train with a nicer trigger, just make sure you aren't sacrificing the durability and reliabily of your combat weapon....and then go out there and TRAIN with it.

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Link Posted: 3/5/2011 4:27:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/5/2011 5:09:55 PM EST by 3-gun]
Originally Posted By Harv24:
I'm not advocating that one should not buy good equipment, but way too many folks want to buy there skill vs. earn it..I rarely run into folks who are actually good shooters... What I do run into are a lot of shooters who buy a shit load of aftermarket doodads to trick out there gun, and they have the skill set of a bag of Doritos...

You asked for opinions...... there's one...


snip
Sounds like you should hang out at a better range


Not saying you can buy skill but a good rifle with a good trigger and sights will help almost everyone shoot better.

(edit to add almost )
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Link Posted: 3/6/2011 5:19:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2011 5:19:56 AM EST by Lakemoor]
Originally Posted By Harv24:
I'm not advocating that one should not buy good equipment, but way too many folks want to buy there skill vs. earn it..I rarely run into folks who are actually good shooters... What I do run into are a lot of shooters who buy a shit load of aftermarket doodads to trick out there gun, and they have the skill set of a bag of Doritos...

You asked for opinions...... there's one...


Going to agree with Harv as well. When doing drills most of the time it's pretty close 50 yd or less. Most folks who do drills copy Magpul type or Kyle Lamb stuff, at least my little group does. Don't need super trick triggers to do that.

That being most of my small group that I shot with have trick triggers but then again we've been to multiple courses and we are the sickos that hang out in single digit temps and shoot drills while our buggies are frozen solid on our faces.

For most folks that surf Arfcom a case of ammo probally lasts them forever. Problem for lot of folks is finding decent ranges, time, money (going to a training class and ammo) and finally somebody to mentor them.
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Link Posted: 3/6/2011 10:31:01 PM EST
I appreciate the wide range of feedback this thread has generated, but before things get too acrimonious, I feel the need to refer back to the intent of my original question i.e. what qualities make a good fighting trigger.

Harv24, I'm not trying to buy skill, I'm looking for info that will help me purchase a FCG that is consistent and safe, so I can work to acquire the skill you refer to, without the unnecessary encumbrance of a lousy trigger. Of particular concern to me is tolerance stacking. Since no semi-auto lower is actually Mil-spec, components that work perfectly in one brand of lower may be mistimed or even double in another. I only have experience with the few brands that I own, so I was reaching out to a wider sampling for opinions. That is also why I asked about the advantages of the "cartridge" type FCGs, which guarantee (their word) proper operation with only basic install ability required.

You make a valid point about skill outweighing equipment, but the "stock military trigger" in use for forty years was designed to be safe for a conscript army that would not see much training more advanced than that received in basic. It also had to control a fully automatic or burst-capable weapon. Individual riflemen may have honed their technique in combat, but I think you would agree that, for most, what you learn in training is what shows up under stress. I'm simply looking to flatten the learning curve a little bit, and since I'm building these AR's I can put in whatever seems sensible.

As far as tricking them out with gizmo's, not so much. Per your example, the cemeteries are also full of people killed with spears, swords, and trapdoor Springfields, but anyone armed with one of these devices would be at a serious disadvantage to a state-of-the-art combat sniper rifle being operated by one of our well-trained scout sniper teams at 700 yards distance. Sometimes technology is a boon.
My point is the skill set remains the same, but improvements assist the desired outcome. Consider reading a book....it's always required the same ability, but it's much easier to do from an E-reader than from stone tablets.
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Link Posted: 3/7/2011 6:10:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By 2tonic:
I appreciate the wide range of feedback this thread has generated, but before things get too acrimonious, I feel the need to refer back to the intent of my original question i.e. what qualities make a good fighting trigger.

Harv24, I'm not trying to buy skill, I'm looking for info that will help me purchase a FCG that is consistent and safe, so I can work to acquire the skill you refer to, without the unnecessary encumbrance of a lousy trigger. Of particular concern to me is tolerance stacking. Since no semi-auto lower is actually Mil-spec, components that work perfectly in one brand of lower may be mistimed or even double in another. I only have experience with the few brands that I own, so I was reaching out to a wider sampling for opinions. That is also why I asked about the advantages of the "cartridge" type FCGs, which guarantee (their word) proper operation with only basic install ability required.

You make a valid point about skill outweighing equipment, but the "stock military trigger" in use for forty years was designed to be safe for a conscript army that would not see much training more advanced than that received in basic. It also had to control a fully automatic or burst-capable weapon. Individual riflemen may have honed their technique in combat, but I think you would agree that, for most, what you learn in training is what shows up under stress. I'm simply looking to flatten the learning curve a little bit, and since I'm building these AR's I can put in whatever seems sensible.

As far as tricking them out with gizmo's, not so much. Per your example, the cemeteries are also full of people killed with spears, swords, and trapdoor Springfields, but anyone armed with one of these devices would be at a serious disadvantage to a state-of-the-art combat sniper rifle being operated by one of our well-trained scout sniper teams at 700 yards distance. Sometimes technology is a boon.
My point is the skill set remains the same, but improvements assist the desired outcome. Consider reading a book....it's always required the same ability, but it's much easier to do from an E-reader than from stone tablets.


Geiselle.

Seriously, they've got the AR15 trigger thing down. There is a reason you only see praise for them and virtually ZERO criticism. I'd recommend the flat bowed triggers that midway is selling, their "dynamic" lineup. The Super Dynamic 3 gun trigger is probably the greatest trigger for the AR I've ever felt.
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Link Posted: 3/7/2011 6:49:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By 2tonic:
I appreciate the wide range of feedback this thread has generated, but before things get too acrimonious, I feel the need to refer back to the intent of my original question i.e. what qualities make a good fighting trigger.

Harv24, I'm not trying to buy skill, I'm looking for info that will help me purchase a FCG that is consistent and safe, so I can work to acquire the skill you refer to, without the unnecessary encumbrance of a lousy trigger. Of particular concern to me is tolerance stacking. Since no semi-auto lower is actually Mil-spec, components that work perfectly in one brand of lower may be mistimed or even double in another. I only have experience with the few brands that I own, so I was reaching out to a wider sampling for opinions. That is also why I asked about the advantages of the "cartridge" type FCGs, which guarantee (their word) proper operation with only basic install ability required.

You make a valid point about skill outweighing equipment, but the "stock military trigger" in use for forty years was designed to be safe for a conscript army that would not see much training more advanced than that received in basic. It also had to control a fully automatic or burst-capable weapon. Individual riflemen may have honed their technique in combat, but I think you would agree that, for most, what you learn in training is what shows up under stress. I'm simply looking to flatten the learning curve a little bit, and since I'm building these AR's I can put in whatever seems sensible.

As far as tricking them out with gizmo's, not so much. Per your example, the cemeteries are also full of people killed with spears, swords, and trapdoor Springfields, but anyone armed with one of these devices would be at a serious disadvantage to a state-of-the-art combat sniper rifle being operated by one of our well-trained scout sniper teams at 700 yards distance. Sometimes technology is a boon.
My point is the skill set remains the same, but improvements assist the desired outcome. Consider reading a book....it's always required the same ability, but it's much easier to do from an E-reader than from stone tablets.


I'm glad to see my message got across and was understood as well as harvs. I believe they are both as important. As said before equipment does not equal skill but superior equipment + superior skill = superior results.
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Link Posted: 3/7/2011 1:11:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2011 5:59:51 PM EST by Harv24]
Originally Posted By 2tonic:
I appreciate the wide range of feedback this thread has generated, but before things get too acrimonious, I feel the need to refer back to the intent of my original question i.e. what qualities make a good fighting trigger.

Harv24, I'm not trying to buy skill, I'm looking for info that will help me purchase a FCG that is consistent and safe, so I can work to acquire the skill you refer to, without the unnecessary encumbrance of a lousy trigger. Of particular concern to me is tolerance stacking. Since no semi-auto lower is actually Mil-spec, components that work perfectly in one brand of lower may be mistimed or even double in another. I only have experience with the few brands that I own, so I was reaching out to a wider sampling for opinions. That is also why I asked about the advantages of the "cartridge" type FCGs, which guarantee (their word) proper operation with only basic install ability required.

You make a valid point about skill outweighing equipment, but the "stock military trigger" in use for forty years was designed to be safe for a conscript army that would not see much training more advanced than that received in basic. It also had to control a fully automatic or burst-capable weapon. Individual riflemen may have honed their technique in combat, but I think you would agree that, for most, what you learn in training is what shows up under stress. I'm simply looking to flatten the learning curve a little bit, and since I'm building these AR's I can put in whatever seems sensible.

As far as tricking them out with gizmo's, not so much. Per your example, the cemeteries are also full of people killed with spears, swords, and trapdoor Springfields, but anyone armed with one of these devices would be at a serious disadvantage to a state-of-the-art combat sniper rifle being operated by one of our well-trained scout sniper teams at 700 yards distance. Sometimes technology is a boon.
My point is the skill set remains the same, but improvements assist the desired outcome. Consider reading a book....it's always required the same ability, but it's much easier to do from an E-reader than from stone tablets.




We have not had a conscript Army since the early 70's... and the triggers was not designed for that purpose.....

And the U.S. Marine Corp has had quite exceptional results teaching marksmanship with that "Stock military trigger"..

So let me ask you... What formal training have you taken to acquire this skill you seek so quickly?? I would think if your so intent on reaching such a high pinnacle of marksmanship, that part of you plan, besides buying expensive triggers, is to seek out some exceptional training..
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Link Posted: 3/7/2011 4:09:59 PM EST
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