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Posted: 7/1/2009 9:06:25 PM EDT
I'm confused as to whether or not KNS non-rotational pins are compatible with Geissele triggers, specifically the SSA Trigger.
From what I understood, the KNS pins do not work with the Geissele, as the slots on the pins are different. (See here: LINK) So I e-mailed KNS asking if they plan on producing a set of non-rotational pins that are compatible with the Geissele. This was the reply: Ed,
Thank you for your interest in our products. Our current Non Rotate Trigger Hammer Pins fit all but one of the Geissele Trigger Systems. Due to the variety of different trigger systems available, we choose to stay with pins that fit the Mil-Spec receivers and those trigger systems that accept standard Mil-Spec pins. If our current supply demands reduce in the near future, we may explore some different options, but for now our focus is to keep up with the current demand for our existing product and to provide excellent customer service. Thank you again! (Sections of the quote were edited and made bold to show emphasis.) Which Geissele trigger systems work with the KNS pins? Which Geissele trigger systems do not work with the KNS pins? Thank you for your time. 
-Ed |
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Posted: 7/1/2009 10:00:30 PM EDT
[#1]
the kns pins will work with the SSA
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Posted: 7/1/2009 11:01:03 PM EDT
[#2]
Works ok with my Hi-speed as far as I can tell.
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Posted: 7/2/2009 7:41:58 AM EDT
[#3]
Also seconding that it works with my hi speed too.
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Posted: 7/2/2009 7:58:06 AM EDT
[#4]
The Geissele pins are way better than the KNS type. Why not use them?
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Posted: 7/2/2009 9:01:26 AM EDT
[#5]
KNS non-rotational pins and SSA/SSF = GO.
KNS non-rotational pins and Hi-Speed = NO GO. That information is per Bill Geissele, the designer/engineer and manufacturer of the best AR trigger available. |
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Posted: 7/2/2009 12:16:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Thanks for the help. I appreciate it!
-Ed |
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Posted: 7/2/2009 1:54:54 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
KNS non-rotational pins and Hi-Speed = NO GO. It seems to work on at least two people's rifles, including mine. Care to be more specific on how they won't work? |
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Posted: 7/2/2009 1:54:57 PM EDT
[#8]
double
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Posted: 7/2/2009 2:40:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
The Geissele pins are way better than the KNS type. Why not use them? What???????????? I don't see how they can be WAY better. I can't measure ANY runout on a KNS pin with a dial indicator. Please explain! |
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Posted: 7/2/2009 3:43:13 PM EDT
[#10]
From a couple of archived threads:
Once you use kns pins they will stretch the spring that holds the Geissele pin. In other words once you use kns pins you should not go back. Also only the 'oversize kns pins can be considered. Our pins work fine. Bill
William Geissele Geissele Automatics LLC Quoted:
Quoted:
I guess I must be a little thick. What about the KNS pins damages the triggers, and why the high speed and not the SSA? Or do they damage the SSA triggers also? I'm just curious. Are the KNS pins out of round or the wrong size or what? its because the SSA uses a j spring like a stock AR15 trigger, while the hi-speed does not. If you notice on the hi speed the groves are on the right while regular hammer pins have have a grove in the middle Quoted:
On a normal trigger hammer the spring retainer is located in the center of the hammer pin hole. On the Geissele trigger this retainer was relocated farther to the outside edge of the hole, not in the center. Because of this Geissele uses special proprietary pins that have the pin groove cut moved to the outside close to the receiver walls instead of in the center. This way the offset groove in the special pin lines up with the offset retainer in the geissele hammer. Because the KNS pins have the standard center groove cut in the middle and the Geissele hammer has the retainer located on the outer edge of the hammer the retainer doesn't line up into the groove. Because of this the retainer will rub against the ungrooved section of the KNS pin and turn your really nice trigger into a really shitty one. Geissele Hi-Speed pins: 
KNS pins: 
Standard pins: 
Geissele SSA pins: 
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Posted: 7/2/2009 5:11:39 PM EDT
[#11]
I've put less then 100 rounds through my hi-speed with KNS pins. I guess I'll swap them out tomorrow morning for the ones that came with the trigger.
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Posted: 7/2/2009 9:10:43 PM EDT
[#12]
I spoke with Bill two weeks ago and he advised me not to use the KNS pins as they are undersized and not made to the same spec as his pins.
Also, hearing that news above that i may have damaged my J-spring is a little disappointing. My Hammer pin does NOT sit centered in the receiver, ie it protrudes from the left side of the receiver. It hasnt walked out but i also havent run it hard yet. Only about 120 rounds on the trigger so far. |
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Posted: 7/3/2009 12:26:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Ok then, so they are a no-go.
This is why I was confused there for a little while. Conflicting reports. -Ed |
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Posted: 7/3/2009 9:20:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
I've put less then 100 rounds through my hi-speed with KNS pins. I guess I'll swap them out tomorrow morning for the ones that came with the trigger. I guess it's the same treatment for me too then. Oh well, they need to release some hi speed compatible pins dammit. |
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Posted: 7/9/2009 4:03:29 PM EDT
[#15]
I thought about taking a KNS pin and a geiselle pin to a machinist and having him cut the appropriate depth groove in the KNS pin to make sure the pin works properly with the trigger spring without issue.
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Posted: 7/9/2009 5:39:36 PM EDT
[#16]
The old dog bone style work with the high speeds (at least on mine they did), the rest I have no idea. The only reason I used them is because the Geisselle pins were too loose in my old Colt lower and would work their way out sometimes during Service Rifle Matches. That didn't make me a very happy camper when it happened.
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Posted: 7/9/2009 6:04:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Geissele pins are way better than the KNS type. Why not use them? What???????????? I don't see how they can be WAY better. I can't measure ANY runout on a KNS pin with a dial indicator. Please explain! The Geissele trigger and hammer are meant for use with the slightly large Geissele pins. They are hardened steel, ultra smooth, and a true solid pin. They do not allow for any rotation which makes the trigger pull phenomenal. KNS pins are stainless, which gall immediately upon use. The KNS pins also have sharp edges on their ends, which tend to tear up the J pin on the hammer upon insertion. Depending on your Gen of KNS pins, you will have at least one hollow style pin, which is weaker than any solid pin. Some Gens of KNS pins allow for a small amount of pin rotation which can lead to a poor trigger feel. |
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Posted: 7/9/2009 6:14:39 PM EDT
[#18]
I wonder if KNS knows just how much melee they've caused by introducing these useless widgets into the market place?
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Posted: 7/9/2009 8:04:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Geissele pins are way better than the KNS type. Why not use them? What???????????? I don't see how they can be WAY better. I can't measure ANY runout on a KNS pin with a dial indicator. Please explain! KNS pins are stainless, which gall immediately upon use. I guess I better book some time on an Electron Microscope to find the galling that IMMEDIATELY occurs! I have a lower with at least 5,000 rounds usage and when I did a complete tear down to thoroughly clean it the KNS pins looked new. PursuitSS |
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Posted: 7/9/2009 8:34:44 PM EDT
[#20]
ggg
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Posted: 7/9/2009 8:44:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Er, the geisselle pins are supposed to be anti rotation pins?
Mine rotate in my LMT lower...alot. They're working right now wonderfully, put about 200 rounds on them the other day for a total of about 350 now and they havent walked out. Still, the fact that the hammer pin isnt centered still annoys me. |
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Posted: 7/9/2009 9:13:56 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Er, the geisselle pins are supposed to be anti rotation pins? Mine rotate in my LMT lower...alot. They're working right now wonderfully, put about 200 rounds on them the other day for a total of about 350 now and they havent walked out. Still, the fact that the hammer pin isnt centered still annoys me. Get a lower that's in spec and they won't rotate. |
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Posted: 7/10/2009 7:24:29 AM EDT
[#23]
I understand that due to the extremely precise build of the Geissele Hi-speed trigger, it is possible that the hammer pin will offset and "find center" even in a lower within specification. Besides having a proprietary groove configuration Geissele Hi-speed pins are over-sized, and should not be able to enter the receiver holes with finger pressure.
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Posted: 7/10/2009 10:36:01 AM EDT
[#24]
tag to read better later on
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Posted: 7/10/2009 11:14:28 AM EDT
[#25]
How old are your receivers that allowed Geissele pins to roatate? I had a new LWRC receiver and had to tap my pins in to get them to fit. They dont move. They are solid and also dont get in the way of my trigger finger like a KNS pin. Were these receivers already used with large pin holes?
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Posted: 7/10/2009 11:31:29 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
I wonder if KNS knows just how much melee they've caused by introducing these useless widgets into the market place? I know, as I get the stupid questions every day. And I have the extra bushings needed to replace the originals after some idiot put a KNS pin in and smashed the c clip. If you have a Geissele trigger use the pins provided. Geissele trigger pins are not made like standard trigger pins. Throw out the stupid fuckin KNS pins, they have NO place being used with Geissele triggers. Soon Bill will make it policy that if you do something stupid like put the KNS pin in a Hi-Speed and ruin the c-clip, its your loss with no warranty coverage or support. In short, if you own a Geissele trigger and have it held in place with KNS pins, you're a moron. 
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Posted: 7/10/2009 11:55:26 AM EDT
[#27]
KNS..the same co. that makes these stupid things??? cross hair front sights
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Posted: 7/10/2009 12:00:44 PM EDT
[#28]
I used the standard Geissele pins that came with my SSA until I noticed the trigger pin was rotating in my LMT lower. Adding the SSA was the first and only time the pins had been changed. I added the KNS gen 2 mod 2 pins, and have had no problems since. Mark it, Dude- I guess I'm a fucking moron.
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Posted: 7/10/2009 12:14:14 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Mark it, Dude- I guess I'm a fucking moron. I agree. Because the rotating, perfectly round Geissle pin doesnt hurt a thing. Congratulations, you replaced a precision made piece of equipment with an undersized mass produced piece of crap. Instead of having a properly sized pin rotating harmlessly, you now have a pin slamming back in fourth in the hammer/trigger holes. The general ignorance of the common AR15 owner is just sad, but they sure love their add on gadgets to show off in the picture threads. KNS pins and tactical trigger guards for all!
ETA: I never understood the concept of skimping on the quality parts in a $170 trigger to save imaginary wear and tear on a $100-150 lower? |
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Posted: 7/10/2009 12:51:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Mark it, Dude- I guess I'm a fucking moron. I agree. Because the rotating, perfectly round Geissle pin doesnt hurt a thing. Congratulations, you replaced a precision made piece of equipment with an undersized mass produced piece of crap. Instead of having a properly sized pin rotating harmlessly, you now have a pin slamming back in fourth in the hammer/trigger holes. The general ignorance of the common AR15 owner is just sad, but they sure love their add on gadgets to show off in the picture threads. KNS pins and tactical trigger guards for all!
ETA: I never understood the concept of skipming on the quality parts in a $170 trigger to save imaginary wear and tear on a $100-150 lower? I don't know what we'd do without you. Thanks. |
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Posted: 7/10/2009 12:59:09 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Mark it, Dude- I guess I'm a fucking moron. The general ignorance of the common AR15 owner is just sad, but they sure love their add on gadgets to show off in the picture threads. KNS pins and tactical trigger guards for all!
ETA: I never understood the concept of skipming on the quality parts in a $170 trigger to save imaginary wear and tear on a $100-150 lower? I may catch flack but in my opinion and experience I think the pins have a useful place. On my Stag lower (which has a serial number in the low end of 300) the hammer and trigger pins would work loose after a long string of rounds. With the pins installed I don't have to worry about pins walking out on me. I don't care one bit about them rotating or not but the fact that they won't try to take a trip out of my rifle makes them worth the small price to me, The rifle that houses the hi speed has had the correct pins put back in and I'll just place those pair in another rifle. |
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Posted: 7/10/2009 1:03:38 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Mark it, Dude- I guess I'm a fucking moron. The general ignorance of the common AR15 owner is just sad, but they sure love their add on gadgets to show off in the picture threads. KNS pins and tactical trigger guards for all!
ETA: I never understood the concept of skipming on the quality parts in a $170 trigger to save imaginary wear and tear on a $100-150 lower? I may catch flack but in my opinion and experience I think the pins have a useful place. On my Stag lower (which has a serial number in the low end of 300) the hammer and trigger pins would work loose after a long string of rounds. With the pins installed I don't have to worry about pins walking out on me. I don't care one bit about them rotating or not but the fact that they won't try to take a trip out of my rifle makes them worth the small price to me, The rifle that houses the hi speed has had the correct pins put back in and I'll just place those pair in another rifle. Dude, no. You're wrong, don't you get it!? Stop thinking for yourself. You've been told what to think, and do. You are so pitiful, you stupid, stupid, generally ignorant common AR15 owner. ETA:
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Posted: 7/10/2009 1:57:31 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
I know, as I get the stupid questions every day. And I have the extra bushings needed to replace the originals after some idiot put a KNS pin in and smashed the c clip. If you have a Geissele trigger use the pins provided. Geissele trigger pins are not made like standard trigger pins. Throw out the stupid fuckin KNS pins, they have NO place being used with Geissele triggers. Soon Bill will make it policy that if you do something stupid like put the KNS pin in a Hi-Speed and ruin the c-clip, its your loss with no warranty coverage or support. In short, if you own a Geissele trigger and have it held in place with KNS pins, you're a fucking moron.
Some of your wording there was a bit unnecessary, in my humble opinion. I started this thread so that a basic question could be answered (which it was, on page one). I did not start it so that people like yourself could come in here and throw insults. -Ed |
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Posted: 7/10/2009 4:40:52 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
On my Stag lower (which has a serial number in the low end of 300) the hammer and trigger pins would work loose after a long string of rounds. If the pins are coming out, your FCG isn't properly installed. |
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Posted: 7/11/2009 5:26:13 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
On my Stag lower (which has a serial number in the low end of 300) the hammer and trigger pins would work loose after a long string of rounds. If the pins are coming out, your FCG isn't properly installed. I should have elaborated but I figured who would want to argue the point. Yes the hammer and trigger spring were installed correctly. It is entirely possible for problems to just occur in mechanical devices. |
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Posted: 8/4/2009 6:49:17 PM EDT
[#36]
Well I'll gladly take my place in the Adco says I'm a fucking moron hall of shame. I tried a set of KNS pins, for fun (I live life on the wild side and try new things) and I found out that they significantly improve the feel of the trigger and slightly reduced the pull, on every lower I have ever put them in. I'm also a double fucking moron since I have a set of KNS pins in my LMT with an SSA trigger. It's amazing that it made it through a three day 2,000 Magpul clas without exploding. I was going to have Adco shorten a barrel for me be since he thinks I'm a fucking moron I'm sure he doesn't want my business
 .
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Posted: 8/5/2009 12:34:23 PM EDT
[#37]
Yeah, I'll have to agree. ADCO lost some points, there.
-Ed |
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Posted: 8/5/2009 1:47:14 PM EDT
[#38]
I guess I'm a moron also! I use my AR on duty and it MUST work! I have KNS Anti-Walk pins, inexpensive QUALITY insurance.
PursuitSS |
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Posted: 8/5/2009 2:31:15 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
On my Stag lower (which has a serial number in the low end of 300) the hammer and trigger pins would work loose after a long string of rounds. If the pins are coming out, your FCG isn't properly installed. I should have elaborated but I figured who would want to argue the point. Yes the hammer and trigger spring were installed correctly. It is entirely possible for problems to just occur in mechanical devices. If your Geissele pins are coming out, no, you dont have it installed properly. Properly installed parts do not fall out. If you used KNS pins with the Hi Speed trigger you probably ruined the c clip which will both make the trigger feel like crap, and also mean the correct pins will no longer stay in place. If you have any questions or problems with your Geissele let me know. |
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Posted: 8/5/2009 2:44:02 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
I guess I'm a moron also! I use my AR on duty and it MUST work! I have KNS Anti-Walk pins, inexpensive QUALITY insurance. PursuitSS What Dept./Unit are you in that is issuing Geissele triggers? |
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Posted: 8/5/2009 4:26:46 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I guess I'm a moron also! I use my AR on duty and it MUST work! I have KNS Anti-Walk pins, inexpensive QUALITY insurance. PursuitSS What Dept./Unit are you in that is issuing Geissele triggers? I didn't say that I had a Geissele trigger, they aren't suitable for patrol car use! My weapon is not issued, I built it. PursuitSS |
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Posted: 8/5/2009 4:50:21 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I guess I'm a moron also! I use my AR on duty and it MUST work! I have KNS Anti-Walk pins, inexpensive QUALITY insurance. PursuitSS What Dept./Unit are you in that is issuing Geissele triggers? I didn't say that I had a Geissele trigger, they aren't suitable for patrol car use! My weapon is not issued, I built it. PursuitSS I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about KNS pins used with Geissele triggers, your out of context post confused me.
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Posted: 8/5/2009 10:28:26 PM EDT
[#43]
If the trigger pin is walking out, it is telling you that there is something wrong. You can either put the bandaid on it (KNS pins) or you can install the trigger properly.
One of these days I'm going to NP3 coat a mountain of detents and sell them as a 3 dollar upgrade each. There will be a line of people on here singing the praises about the peace of mind insurance they provide.
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Posted: 8/6/2009 6:09:39 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
If the trigger pin is walking out, it is telling you that there is something wrong. You can either put the bandaid on it (KNS pins) or you can install the trigger properly. One of these days I'm going to NP3 coat a mountain of detents and sell them as a 3 dollar upgrade each. There will be a line of people on here singing the praises about the peace of mind insurance they provide.
If they come in FDE, I want 6. |
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Posted: 8/6/2009 7:54:04 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
On my Stag lower (which has a serial number in the low end of 300) the hammer and trigger pins would work loose after a long string of rounds. If the pins are coming out, your FCG isn't properly installed. I should have elaborated but I figured who would want to argue the point. Yes the hammer and trigger spring were installed correctly. It is entirely possible for problems to just occur in mechanical devices. If your Geissele pins are coming out, no, you dont have it installed properly. Properly installed parts do not fall out. If you used KNS pins with the Hi Speed trigger you probably ruined the c clip which will both make the trigger feel like crap, and also mean the correct pins will no longer stay in place. If you have any questions or problems with your Geissele let me know. You misread my post. On my Stag lower the standard pins could walk out on a correctly installed standard hammer and trigger. The kns pins were a remedy. Since it alleviated the problem and I believe in precautionary measures I installed kns pins on all of my builds, including the one with the hi speed trigger. The problem with the Stag probably can be attributed to the pin hole size or the pins supplied in LPK but it wasn't due to improperly installed parts. After learning about the Geissele's c clip I replaced the kns pins with the hi-speeds supplied ones which are a super tight fit and I am confident won't budge. This is also directed at stevenb, there never was a problem with the Geissele or incorrectly installed parts, the problem was with a stag with loose fitting pins. |
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Posted: 8/6/2009 8:30:17 AM EDT
[#46]
I am running KNS pins with a SSA trigger in my preban Bushmaster lower (which is worth substantially more than $100 in a permaban State) put me squarely in the farkin moron section please.
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Posted: 8/24/2009 5:51:02 PM EDT
[#47]
Holy cow, I'm glad I read this. I just installed a DMR trigger on my 6.8 SPC Rifle with KNS pins. Time to go and remove the KNS pins and put in the ones that came with the trigger.
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Posted: 8/24/2009 6:19:21 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Holy cow, I'm glad I read this. I just installed a DMR trigger on my 6.8 SPC Rifle with KNS pins. Time to go and remove the KNS pins and put in the ones that came with the trigger. make sure to look inside the hammer to be sure you didnt destroy the circlip that holds the correct pin in place. |
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Posted: 8/24/2009 6:38:01 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Holy cow, I'm glad I read this. I just installed a DMR trigger on my 6.8 SPC Rifle with KNS pins. Time to go and remove the KNS pins and put in the ones that came with the trigger. make sure to look inside the hammer to be sure you didnt destroy the circlip that holds the correct pin in place. It could really have been destroyed that easily? I literally had just put the Trigger group and KNS pins in, then removed them about an hour later. Didn't go shoot the gun or anything. There seriously should be a giant bold lettered warning about using KNS pins on the package of these triggers. |
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Posted: 8/24/2009 7:11:28 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
It could really have been destroyed that easily? Yes, its just a tiny piece of wire. Look inside, if its still round, and in place you're OK. |
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