What's the deal with budget AR's? - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What's the deal with budget AR's?

Posted: 8/17/2017 8:42:59 AM EDT

This is kind of a N00B question, I'm not a super noob, but noob enough to ask a question like this I suppose. What's the deal with budget ARs (almost) always having the front sight tower/gas block? Is it THAT much cheaper than doing a low profile block with a little picatinny on it? Or offering some crazy cheap railed handguard? It seems like, at least in the bubble I operate in, that it's the #1 regret new AR owners experience after buying one of the popular budget guns. They get it, and the first question is, crap... Can I put an optic on this thing with that tower out there? Clearly the answer is yes, but then they want a full length handguard which now becomes a challenge. Now you're at the point where you think, should I spend the money for a low profile gas block, then spend the money on a full length handguard or do I just buy a new upper? Or, get one of those handguards that have a hole for the site tower? At what point should I just leave my budget gun as-is and piece something new together from PSA?

So, I guess my question is... What is the benefit to having a front sight tower and why are they so common on budget guns?

Thanks,
Brian

Posted: 8/17/2017 8:53:54 AM EDT

[#1]

Front sight has block combo has worked for years. Use a rail made for it or chop front sight and install rail of choice. Bought several CHE 10.5 uppers and chopped gas block. Time proven design has been replaced by cool looking rails that use low profile gas block. Buy what you can afford, get proficient with it. Upgrade later. Don't be scared of learning to remove FSB and modifying rifle in the future.

Posted: 8/17/2017 9:11:02 AM EDT

[#2]

Bayonets. Fix 'em.

Posted: 8/17/2017 9:12:26 AM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:
Front sight has block combo has worked for years. Use a rail made for it or chop front sight and install rail of choice. Bought several CHE 10.5 uppers and chopped gas block. Time proven design has been replaced by cool looking rails that use low profile gas block. Buy what you can afford, get proficient with it. Upgrade later. Don't be scared of learning to remove FSB and modifying rifle in the future.

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Thanks. That's where I'm at now and I'm starting to figure out what I want and I'm actually OK with the tower and the rail designed for it. As I'm helping my friends and family select their first AR that sight tower is always a concern.

Posted: 8/17/2017 9:13:07 AM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
Bayonets. Fix 'em.

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Posted: 8/17/2017 9:15:30 AM EDT

[#5]

A2 fsb is rock solid. Not only is it a sight that is near impossible to fuck up, but it is a gas block that is double pinned and will not move.

Cutting/shaving a fsb in order to free float later is a 20 minute job and you do not have to invest in another gas block.

ARs/barrels are offered in both configurations, so buy the option you like.

Posted: 8/17/2017 9:31:26 AM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
Bayonets. Fix 'em.

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That's why I prefer an A2 sight base and mid-length gas system on my 16" AR's. What's the point of having a bayonet lug if you can't easily use it?

Posted: 8/17/2017 9:31:39 AM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:
A2 fsb is rock solid. Not only is it a sight that is near impossible to fuck up, but it is a gas block that is double pinned and will not move.

.

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This seems like the reason more than anything. Thanks!

Posted: 8/17/2017 9:49:23 AM EDT

[#8]

The goal, at least for major manufacturers and those smaller ones looking to survive, isn't just to crank out a budget AR. It's to crank out budget ARs that are cheap to produce but will be reliable. Sticking with an A2, no frills, no adjustment gas block is one of the cheapest ways to contribute to that goal and do it at the least cost. As Tig said, a dual pinned A2 block with just do it's job and not be a nuisance. A good BCG with properly staked gas key, the gas block, and in spec small components is the start of the recipe. You have more room for wiggle with barrel finish, stock choice, etc. to get to the desired price point.

Posted: 8/17/2017 9:52:26 AM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
That's why I prefer an A2 sight base and mid-length gas system on my 16" AR's. What's the point of having a bayonet lug if you can't easily use it?

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Bayonets. Fix 'em.

That's why I prefer an A2 sight base and mid-length gas system on my 16" AR's. What's the point of having a bayonet lug if you can't easily use it?

I've never installed a bayonet.

Posted: 8/17/2017 10:08:12 AM EDT

[#10]

I just cut them off and give them a blast with black grill paint.

Attached File

Posted: 8/17/2017 10:15:32 AM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted: I've never installed a bayonet.

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Nazis and communists HATE bayonets. That's why bayonet lugs were banned during the AWB. Make a liberal cry today. Fix a bayonet, take a picture, and post on your social media. Learn who the communists and nazis are.

Posted: 8/17/2017 10:21:46 AM EDT

[#12]

Front sight towers aren't exclusive to cheap uppers. Infact cheap uppers typically have a picatinny rail on a gas block. Yuck.

Personally I prefer the fixed front site, as you pointed out it doesn't interfere with magnified optics.

Once you purchase a set of nice flip ups your budget Upper just went up by $150.

Posted: 8/17/2017 11:21:17 AM EDT

[#13]

Attached File

the barrel and fsb is part of a standard assembly that is jig built in bulk

notice how F) is referenced, the fsb and the barrel nut are not individual parts

Attached File

Posted: 8/17/2017 11:48:45 AM EDT

[#14]

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Quoted:

I've never installed a bayonet.

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Posted: 8/17/2017 2:40:57 PM EDT

[#15]

All of my SHTF rifles have an FSB.

Posted: 8/17/2017 3:03:54 PM EDT

[#16]

You're looking in the wrong places.
https://www.centerfiresystems.com/p-42-radical-firearms-ar-15-223556-with-12-handguard.aspx

About half of these have rails or railed gas blocks.
https://www.classicfirearms.com/long-guns/?cat=52&dir=asc&order=price

Posted: 8/17/2017 3:06:22 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
You're looking in the wrong places.
https://www.centerfiresystems.com/p-42-radical-firearms-ar-15-223556-with-12-handguard.aspx

About half of these have rails or railed gas blocks.
https://www.classicfirearms.com/long-guns/?cat=52&dir=asc&order=price

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Hmmm I WILL have to look here. Thanks!
Brian

Posted: 8/17/2017 3:06:53 PM EDT

[#18]

Most of my serious ARs have FSBs.

Robust, solid, inexpensive, reliable.

Posted: 8/17/2017 3:08:31 PM EDT

[#19]

I am a fan of the FSB, I have several of them around here to install on new builds in the future, done correctly, you can't really do much to mess them up and they are accurate when you get sighted in.

Posted: 8/17/2017 3:39:33 PM EDT

[#20]

Man that Del Ton is cheap, wish I did not have more rifles than I can use or I would be buying right now.

Posted: 8/17/2017 4:37:55 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
What's the deal with budget ARs (almost) always having the front sight tower/gas block? Is it THAT much cheaper than doing a low profile block with a little picatinny on it? Or offering some crazy cheap railed handguard?

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It's not a question of cost.

It is a question of market position.

S&W, for example, will sell you an "entry level" AR with a front sight and round handguards for an attractive price. But, if you want to be more "sophisticated" and have fancy handguards or your mind can't wrap itself around the concept of co-witness, then they will be happy to sell you an "advanced" model with a railed gas block, floating barrel and Magpul furniture - for a price.

At what point should I just leave my budget gun as-is and piece something new together from PSA?

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If they wanted a mid-length gas system, free floating barrel and MagPul furniture, why didn't they just buy a gun with all that on it to begin with? It makes me think they didn't make a mistake as much as they bought what they wanted because it then gave them an excuse to play around with modifying it. Whichever is correct, the guys who bought the "entry level" ARs and set out to modify them have Magpul, PSA and other vendors are laughing all the way to the bank.

...What is the benefit to having a front sight tower

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For the manufacturer

* It clearly marks the gun as part of it's "entry level" lineup.* It saves them the cost of putting on a pop-up front sight.

For the user:

* It is more robust than a pop-up front sight bolted onto a railed gas block* It doesn't interfere with properly installed optics* If you add the bolt-on carrying handle, it makes the gun look "right"

Posted: 8/17/2017 4:48:54 PM EDT

[#22]

IMO seems like FSB ARs are becoming rarer, atleast regarding budget ARs.
I believe PSA/Delton/Andro Corp/DSA only have them for a lower price now.

It technically is cheaper/less time consuming to just install a barrel nut, low profile set screw block, gas tube, and a free float handguard.

A2 ARs need to have the barrel nut, delta ring, retainer cap, etc installed. Also the A2 FSB has to have taper pin holes drilled, and pins installed.

Some companies don't want to bother with the tooling or installation of A2 Blocks. (Ghost, Mas Defense, lolRadical Firearms, Etc)

The A2 is rock solid though, and nothing is wrong with it. Plus it saves you money on a front sight

Posted: 8/17/2017 6:32:07 PM EDT

[#23]

They are so common because they work very well. They are solid and rarely if ever cause problems.

If the FSB really bothers you when using a scope cut off the top part and you'll have a lowpro gas block that will stay put forever.

Posted: 8/17/2017 6:39:59 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
All of my SHTF rifles have an FSB.

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Same here. I have NOT bought several nice barrels because they don't have the A2 FSB on them. I am primarily an "irons" shooter, so that's what I like. However, my eyesight is waning, so I will soon be starting to use the RDS that I bought. And even with that, the A2 base isn't in the way.

Posted: 8/17/2017 7:26:27 PM EDT

[#25]

I think this thought process is common with those that are entering the AR world. When I was shopping for mine, I couldn't understand why I would want a FSB and ended up getting a Optics Ready AR. That was going to be so cool because I could install a long rail on it and attach stuff. After a year or so, I realized that the OR was not what I should have got. Next purchase was a CHF middie with FSB. It all comes full circle. If you have an AR with FSB, I say keep it. If you want something railed with flip up BUIS, buy another upper. With prices where they are today, you can't go wrong. Then, in a couple of years, you'll be glad you kept your upper with the FSB.

Posted: 8/17/2017 8:17:15 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:

Nazis and communists HATE bayonets. That's why bayonet lugs were banned during the AWB. Make a liberal cry today. Fix a bayonet, take a picture, and post on your social media. Learn who the communists and nazis are.

View Quote

Interesting, California hasn't banned bayonet lugs.

Posted: 8/18/2017 5:55:18 AM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
I think this thought process is common with those that are entering the AR world. When I was shopping for mine, I couldn't understand why I would want a FSB and ended up getting a Optics Ready AR. That was going to be so cool because I could install a long rail on it and attach stuff. After a year or so, I realized that the OR was not what I should have got. Next purchase was a CHF middie with FSB. It all comes full circle. If you have an AR with FSB, I say keep it. If you want something railed with flip up BUIS, buy another upper. With prices where they are today, you can't go wrong. Then, in a couple of years, you'll be glad you kept your upper with the FSB.

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Love this. I think you are right.

Brian

Posted: 8/18/2017 6:06:32 AM EDT

[#28]

Thank you everyone. Great responses. What I hear you saying is (I have good listening skills), the A2 front sight is used in budget guns because it's cheap and reliable. Cheap likely comes from the fact that it's been around for decades and supply and tooling is very economical at this point. It's reliable due to the dual pinning and the fact that the simple design has been refined over decades of hard use. That in mind, popularity of low profile gas blocks that more easily support longer rails and accessories are starting to creep into the budget gun world. As to the benefits, it largely comes down to personal preference.

Also, while modifying an A2 (with a hacksaw) is quick/simple and cheap. If you have the means, buying a railed upper would likely be a better option because then you have the flexibility to go back to the A2 if you want it.

I think I get it and will not crinkle my face up when I see a budget gun with an A2.

Thanks everyone

Brian

Posted: 8/18/2017 8:45:57 AM EDT

[#29]

OP, A2 fsp is not an indicator of a budget AR. While the total cost will be lower than a quality free floated rig, the cost is not the determining factor in quality. The configurations are driven by specific applications. Both are designed to serve the same purpose, tailored to the end user's preference.

Look at it this way. Shop new 4x4 trucks, do you want an auto transmission or a rock solid manual?
Again, the intended role will be the determining factor, but both are built for the same intended purpose.

(Unfortunately around these parts, that role is transportation for soccer moms, sadly). Never seen so many tiny women driving Duramax pickups as I have here lately.

Posted: 8/18/2017 3:34:05 PM EDT

[#30]

I've bought a few budget/entry level PSA & RF uppers in various calibers and they've all come with keymod or mlok rails. When I bought my first ARs a good rail was expensive but there's some good cheap options available.

For any rifle that might see 'serious' use, I like the super simple FSB with a red dot optic and rear flip up. But new buyers can just about pick & choose what setup they want in a budget setup. And it's easy to cut an FSB down if you want to add a rail later so it's probably got wider appeal.

Posted: 8/18/2017 9:24:45 PM EDT

[#31]

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Quoted:

(Unfortunately around these parts, that role is transportation for soccer moms, sadly). Never seen so many tiny women driving Duramax pickups as I have here lately.

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Meh....par for the course down here in Texas. The rest of your post is spot on.