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Posted: 6/19/2016 4:43:30 PM EDT
[#1]
Mark are your shorter 14.5" pinned Stealth uppers as accurate as your other barrels? Or do you have one barrel length that seems to be "more" or consistently accurate?
And if I recall correctly you don't recommend any break in of your barrels? |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:05:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mark are your shorter 14.5" pinned Stealth uppers as accurate as your other barrels? Or do you have one barrel length that seems to be "more" or consistently accurate? And if I recall correctly you don't recommend any break in of your barrels? On page 1 of this thread, spot # 7, is a 12" shot by Mike_P. And no on favorite length, , good chambers/good rifling produce good results ... the tAR barrels should shoot a little less accurate as they are pencil barrels, but afaik, they are the most accurate pencil barrels made. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:09:30 PM EDT
[#3]
ARs are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the potential in a Krieger or Bartlein barrel.
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:14:19 PM EDT
[#4]
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ARs are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the potential in a Krieger or Bartlein barrel. Take full advantage? Does an AR10 see an advantage with a Krieger bull over say a mega barrel? |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:15:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ARs are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the potential in a Krieger or Bartlein barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
ARs are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the potential in a Krieger or Bartlein barrel. From a couple weeks back ... 
Quoted:
Factoid ... as of today ... Average - Top 5 SPR = 0.4876 Average - Top 5 Bolt / magnified optic = 0.4094 A mere 0.0782 moa separates the shorter barreled gas guns from the longer barreled bolt guns. Let's round it to .08 moa. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:17:41 PM EDT
[#6]
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From a couple weeks back ...
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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ARs are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the potential in a Krieger or Bartlein barrel. From a couple weeks back ...
Quoted:
Factoid ... as of today ... Average - Top 5 SPR = 0.4876 Average - Top 5 Bolt / magnified optic = 0.4094 A mere 0.0782 moa separates the shorter barreled gas guns from the longer barreled bolt guns. Let's round it to .08 moa. Still not that great. .4 MOA is okay, but not the bleeding edge of accuracy. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:19:27 PM EDT
[#7]
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Take full advantage? Does an AR10 see an advantage with a Krieger bull over say a mega barrel? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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ARs are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the potential in a Krieger or Bartlein barrel. Take full advantage? Does an AR10 see an advantage with a Krieger bull over say a mega barrel? There is an advantage, but with Krieger you're talking about a barrel that can, on a properly done rifle, pound out groups under 1/4 MOA with boring regularity. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:26:06 PM EDT
[#8]
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There is an advantage, but with Krieger you're talking about a barrel that can, on a properly done rifle, pound out groups under 1/4 MOA with boring regularity. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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ARs are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the potential in a Krieger or Bartlein barrel. Take full advantage? Does an AR10 see an advantage with a Krieger bull over say a mega barrel? There is an advantage, but with Krieger you're talking about a barrel that can, on a properly done rifle, pound out groups under 1/4 MOA with boring regularity. In a 2 foot long telephone pole barrel resting in a set of rabbit ear bags. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:28:50 PM EDT
[#9]
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In a 2 foot long telephone pole barrel resting in a set of rabbit ear bags. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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ARs are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the potential in a Krieger or Bartlein barrel. Take full advantage? Does an AR10 see an advantage with a Krieger bull over say a mega barrel? There is an advantage, but with Krieger you're talking about a barrel that can, on a properly done rifle, pound out groups under 1/4 MOA with boring regularity. In a 2 foot long telephone pole barrel resting in a set of rabbit ear bags. 2 feet? How bout 20-21"? |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:30:55 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Our guarantee is well known and on our website, but our recipes remain unpublished ... we're not in the business of training our competition.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So a potential customer has the owner of LaRue right here in a thread and I can't get an answer to questions about a product? I checked the website and could not find the info there.  Our guarantee is well known and on our website, but our recipes remain unpublished ... we're not in the business of training our competition. I don't care if Larue barrels were produced from melted tinker bell premium coat hangers and forged by elephants sitting on them begging for peanuts.... What I do care is that I get a quality end product which is exactly what I got that performs way above my wildest expectations. What we do know is the barrels are extremely accurate and are guaranteed. Any issues about Larue barrels I have seen "which is rare" have been taken care of immediately by Larue. Honestly I have not seen a post or article of anyone wearing one out yet....Think about that. You have guys who shoot only every now and then, to accuracy buffs, to guys that like to do mag dumps buying them and I have seen zero issues about the longevity of the barrel. If I was making barrels with such a good reputation I would not want my competitors to get any information either. Would you? I think it has to do more with protecting manufacturing processes due to an extreme outlay of investment that was needed to get barrels like these produced more than anything. Look at all the different barrel manufacturer's out there today. They all produce almost the exact same thing thus the reason we see 5 million questions on who's barrel is the best. When you have the best don't tell the specs to the rest. Just my opinion. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:38:34 PM EDT
[#11]
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2 feet? How bout 20-21"? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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ARs are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the potential in a Krieger or Bartlein barrel. Take full advantage? Does an AR10 see an advantage with a Krieger bull over say a mega barrel? There is an advantage, but with Krieger you're talking about a barrel that can, on a properly done rifle, pound out groups under 1/4 MOA with boring regularity. In a 2 foot long telephone pole barrel resting in a set of rabbit ear bags. 2 feet? How bout 20-21"? The first 3 bolt guns that list a length are a 22" and two 26". I wish listing barrel length had been an Akethan requirement. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:45:41 PM EDT
[#12]
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The first 3 bolt guns that list a length are a 22" and two 26". I wish listing barrel length had been an Akethan requirement. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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2 feet? How bout 20-21"? The first 3 bolt guns that list a length are a 22" and two 26". I wish listing barrel length had been an Akethan requirement. Oh, I'm not talking in the context of the MOA challenge here. It's handicapped in too many ways. I'm talking in absolutes. 17 of the top 20 barrels used at Kelbly's Super Shoot in 2015 were either a Krieger or Bartlein. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:51:19 PM EDT
[#13]
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Still not that great. .4 MOA is okay, but not the bleeding edge of accuracy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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ARs are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the potential in a Krieger or Bartlein barrel. From a couple weeks back ...
Quoted:
Factoid ... as of today ... Average - Top 5 SPR = 0.4876 Average - Top 5 Bolt / magnified optic = 0.4094 A mere 0.0782 moa separates the shorter barreled gas guns from the longer barreled bolt guns. Let's round it to .08 moa. Still not that great. .4 MOA is okay, but not the bleeding edge of accuracy. Well lets see you shoot your Krieger AR-15 5-5shot groups at 100 yards at the 1/4" boringly routine groups you say you get without using a clamped front rest or a weighted eared rear support or bags. Those are the stipulations for the MOA challenge and if you can do it then why haven't you? |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:51:24 PM EDT
[#14]
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Oh, I'm not talking in the context of the MOA challenge here. It's handicapped in too many ways. I'm talking in absolutes. 17 of the top 20 barrels used at Kelbly's Super Shoot in 2015 were either a Krieger or Bartlein. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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2 feet? How bout 20-21"? The first 3 bolt guns that list a length are a 22" and two 26". I wish listing barrel length had been an Akethan requirement. Oh, I'm not talking in the context of the MOA challenge here. It's handicapped in too many ways. I'm talking in absolutes. 17 of the top 20 barrels used at Kelbly's Super Shoot in 2015 were either a Krieger or Bartlein. When I was a kid, the Super Shoot was the Benchrest Nationals ... is that no longer the case ? Also, what was the Super Grand Aggegate Average, if that's what you call the average group size of all official groups. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:51:56 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't care if Larue barrels were produced from melted tinker bell premium coat hangers and forged by elephants sitting on them begging for peanuts.... What I do care is that I get a quality end product which is exactly what I got that performs way above my wildest expectations. What we do know is the barrels are extremely accurate and are guaranteed. Any issues about Larue barrels I have seen "which is rare" have been taken care of immediately by Larue. Honestly I have not seen a post or article of anyone wearing one out yet....Think about that. You have guys who shoot only every now and then, to accuracy buffs, to guys that like to do mag dumps buying them and I have seen zero issues about the longevity of the barrel. If I was making barrels with such a good reputation I would not want my competitors to get any information either. Would you? I think it has to do more with protecting manufacturing processes due to an extreme outlay of investment that was needed to get barrels like these produced more than anything. Look at all the different barrel manufacturer's out there today. They all produce almost the exact same thing thus the reason we see 5 million questions on who's barrel is the best. When you have the best don't tell the specs to the rest. Just my opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So a potential customer has the owner of LaRue right here in a thread and I can't get an answer to questions about a product? I checked the website and could not find the info there. Our guarantee is well known and on our website, but our recipes remain unpublished ... we're not in the business of training our competition. I don't care if Larue barrels were produced from melted tinker bell premium coat hangers and forged by elephants sitting on them begging for peanuts.... What I do care is that I get a quality end product which is exactly what I got that performs way above my wildest expectations. What we do know is the barrels are extremely accurate and are guaranteed. Any issues about Larue barrels I have seen "which is rare" have been taken care of immediately by Larue. Honestly I have not seen a post or article of anyone wearing one out yet....Think about that. You have guys who shoot only every now and then, to accuracy buffs, to guys that like to do mag dumps buying them and I have seen zero issues about the longevity of the barrel. If I was making barrels with such a good reputation I would not want my competitors to get any information either. Would you? I think it has to do more with protecting manufacturing processes due to an extreme outlay of investment that was needed to get barrels like these produced more than anything. Look at all the different barrel manufacturer's out there today. They all produce almost the exact same thing thus the reason we see 5 million questions on who's barrel is the best. When you have the best don't tell the specs to the rest. Just my opinion. How much a barrel weighs is a proprietary secret until I buy one? Come on guys throw me a bone here! Im already going to have to pack more weight from having to shoot heavier weight match bullets..... |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:52:36 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well lets see you shoot your Krieger AR-15 5-5shot groups at 100 yards at the 1/4" boringly routine groups you say you get without using a clamped front rest or a weighted eared rear support or bags. Those are the stipulations for the MOA challenge and if you can do it then why haven't you? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
ARs are not accurate enough to take full advantage of the potential in a Krieger or Bartlein barrel. From a couple weeks back ...
Quoted:
Factoid ... as of today ... Average - Top 5 SPR = 0.4876 Average - Top 5 Bolt / magnified optic = 0.4094 A mere 0.0782 moa separates the shorter barreled gas guns from the longer barreled bolt guns. Let's round it to .08 moa. Still not that great. .4 MOA is okay, but not the bleeding edge of accuracy. Well lets see you shoot your Krieger AR-15 5-5shot groups at 100 yards at the 1/4" boringly routine groups you say you get without using a clamped front rest or a weighted eared rear support or bags. Those are the stipulations for the MOA challenge and if you can do it then why haven't you? Do you know what an ad hominem fallacy is? You're also illustrating further why I, and others, think the MOA challenge is bullshit. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 5:58:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I was a kid, the Super Shoot was the Benchrest Nationals ... is that no longer the case ? Also, what was the Super Grand Aggegate Average, if that's what you call the average group size of all official groups. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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2 feet? How bout 20-21"? The first 3 bolt guns that list a length are a 22" and two 26". I wish listing barrel length had been an Akethan requirement. Oh, I'm not talking in the context of the MOA challenge here. It's handicapped in too many ways. I'm talking in absolutes. 17 of the top 20 barrels used at Kelbly's Super Shoot in 2015 were either a Krieger or Bartlein. When I was a kid, the Super Shoot was the Benchrest Nationals ... is that no longer the case ? Also, what was the Super Grand Aggegate Average, if that's what you call the average group size of all official groups. Those are two separate matches. The Super Shoot is at Kelby's Range and I think the Nationals rotate where they are. It's in Phoenix this year. Super Grand Agg isn't something I've heard of regarding BR. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 6:02:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh, I'm not talking in the context of the MOA challenge here. It's handicapped in too many ways. I'm talking in absolutes. 17 of the top 20 barrels used at Kelbly's Super Shoot in 2015 were either a Krieger or Bartlein. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
2 feet? How bout 20-21"? The first 3 bolt guns that list a length are a 22" and two 26". I wish listing barrel length had been an Akethan requirement. Oh, I'm not talking in the context of the MOA challenge here. It's handicapped in too many ways. I'm talking in absolutes. 17 of the top 20 barrels used at Kelbly's Super Shoot in 2015 were either a Krieger or Bartlein. Two groups from that latest Krieger on the 700 last week measured .193" and .365" center to center with a load I worked up for the other Krieger in 6.5C on the 10, which shoots straighter than I care to post. Both blanks were finished by the same guy. I generally don't have my shit together enough to pull that off, I blew a few groups at the same time chasing the ultimate zero, and this anecdote doesn't fall under the category of absolutes, but the capability is there. The numbers you posted above speak volumes.
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Posted: 6/19/2016 6:04:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Two groups from that latest Krieger on the 700 last week measured .193" and .365" center to center with a load I worked up for the other Krieger in 6.5C on the 10, which shoots straighter than I care to post. Both blanks were finished by the same guy. I generally don't have my shit together enough to pull that off, I blew a few groups at the same time chasing the ultimate zero, and this anecdote doesn't fall under the category of absolutes, but the capability is there. The numbers you posted above speak volumes.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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2 feet? How bout 20-21"? The first 3 bolt guns that list a length are a 22" and two 26". I wish listing barrel length had been an Akethan requirement. Oh, I'm not talking in the context of the MOA challenge here. It's handicapped in too many ways. I'm talking in absolutes. 17 of the top 20 barrels used at Kelbly's Super Shoot in 2015 were either a Krieger or Bartlein. Two groups from that latest Krieger on the 700 last week measured .193" and .365" center to center with a load I worked up for the other Krieger in 6.5C on the 10, which shoots straighter than I care to post. Both blanks were finished by the same guy. I generally don't have my shit together enough to pull that off, I blew a few groups at the same time chasing the ultimate zero, and this anecdote doesn't fall under the category of absolutes, but the capability is there. The numbers you posted above speak volumes.
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Posted: 6/19/2016 6:07:12 PM EDT
[#20]
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I'm talking in absolutes. 17 of the top 20 barrels used at Kelbly's Super Shoot in 2015 were either a Krieger or Bartlein. Can you link to where that info is at? I would like to see it. never mind found it here Pretty damn cool competition. I am interested to see how many shooters decide to use larue barrels at camp perry in three weeks. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 6:09:56 PM EDT
[#21]
As good as it gets, or has ever gotten ...
http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2013/05/benchrest-world-record-jim-carmichel After decades and decades of shooting, somebody finally breaks Jef Fowler's (my neighbor when I was kid) 0.150 record. http://www.6mmbr.com/albums/album_image/1307803/326352.htm One might view it as after decades and a thousands of sanctioned shoots by thousands of benchrest shooters, with massive heavy rifles, with meticulously loaded handloads all, the very best multi-group average ever shot is about .35 MOA better than today's gas guns can run off bipods. ETA - Meh, we're doing pretty good with our short, fairly light, gas-operated, bipod rested, aimed with grapefruit size rear rests rifles shooting factory ammo.
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Posted: 6/19/2016 6:47:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you link to where that info is at? I would like to see it. never mind found it here Pretty damn cool competition. I am interested to see how many shooters decide to use larue barrels at camp perry in three weeks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm talking in absolutes. 17 of the top 20 barrels used at Kelbly's Super Shoot in 2015 were either a Krieger or Bartlein. Can you link to where that info is at? I would like to see it. never mind found it here Pretty damn cool competition. I am interested to see how many shooters decide to use larue barrels at camp perry in three weeks. I'm guessin' Camp Perry shooters haven't heard the LaRue name ... different circles and all that. ETA - Speaking of Camp Perry, I've been told that some top shooters get sent 10 barrels at a whack from Brand X barrel shop, which they then do a shoot off with, keeping and using the top two and selling the other 8. I have no way to confirm it. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 6:48:30 PM EDT
[#23]
ziarifleman said-"Do you know what an ad hominem fallacy is? You're also illustrating further why I, and others, think the MOA challenge is bullshit."
You think the MOA Challenge is BS because you are not allowed to affix your rifle to rests like this picture of the shootout in Kelby- 
This is an AR15 website where questions are being asked on what performs the best in that rifle and you get pissed when those that actually use that rifle and have evidence to support it is Larue and not your beloved Krieger. 
If you like to fix your rifle to a bench and look at wind flags that is fine, but the overwhelming majority here like to learn the rifle and what they are capable of with it in not just a fixed location. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 6:55:19 PM EDT
[#24]
^^^
I didn't see Zia call bs on the 1 MOA ... he's just meandering a little. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 6:55:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Again, a good barrel's a good barrel.
One of the fallacies of the MOA All Day Long Challenge boils down to definition and use and the quality and type of bullet. You can shoot world-class bughole groups at 100 and 200 yards with purpose-built .224- caliber and 6mm rifles "All Day Long," hung over, left handed, some times without your shoulder and cheek on the rifle. The same light, flat-base bullets may not hold a sub-MOA group at 600 (even in no-wind conditions). I'd like to think one of Larue's 20-inch barrels would be pretty competitive at Camp Perry. Again, different circles. A USAMU M16 has to shoot three ten-shot groups sub-minute at 300 Meters (electronically recorded) from a mechanical rest or it doesn't get issued. It has to be sub-MOA at 600 using 80-grain bullets (from a rest and from the shoulder). There are some barrels that can. There are some that can for about 1200 rounds. There are a lot that can't. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 7:00:12 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Again, a good barrel's a good barrel. One of the fallacies of the MOA All Day Long Challenge boils down to definition and use and the quality and type of bullet. You can shoot world-class bughole groups at 100 and 200 yards with purpose-built .224- caliber and 6mm rifles "All Day Long," hung over, left handed, some times without your shoulder and cheek on the rifle. The same light, flat-base bullets may not hold a sub-MOA group at 600 (even in no-wind conditions). I'd like to think one of Larue's 20-inch barrels would be pretty competitive at Camp Perry. Again, different circles. A USAMU M16 has to shoot three ten-shot groups sub-minute at 300 Meters (electronically recorded) from a mechanical rest or it doesn't get issued. It has to be sub-MOA at 600 using 80-grain bullets (from a rest and from the shoulder). There are some barrels that can. There are some that can for about 1200 rounds. There are a lot that can't. What's an AMU M16 that shoots the 80 grainers look like ? |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 7:10:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's an AMU M16 that shoots the 80 grainers look like ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Again, a good barrel's a good barrel. One of the fallacies of the MOA All Day Long Challenge boils down to definition and use and the quality and type of bullet. You can shoot world-class bughole groups at 100 and 200 yards with purpose-built .224- caliber and 6mm rifles "All Day Long," hung over, left handed, some times without your shoulder and cheek on the rifle. The same light, flat-base bullets may not hold a sub-MOA group at 600 (even in no-wind conditions). I'd like to think one of Larue's 20-inch barrels would be pretty competitive at Camp Perry. Again, different circles. A USAMU M16 has to shoot three ten-shot groups sub-minute at 300 Meters (electronically recorded) from a mechanical rest or it doesn't get issued. It has to be sub-MOA at 600 using 80-grain bullets (from a rest and from the shoulder). There are some barrels that can. There are some that can for about 1200 rounds. There are a lot that can't. What's an AMU M16 that shoots the 80 grainers look like ? The only one I have seen in person had a douglas barrel that was 20 inch. It had a semi only two stage trigger from KAC. Couldn't tell you anything about AMU guns today though. I know when I was pondering a national match gun the former AMU and presidents 100 shooter suggested I tried Satern who happened to be just down the road. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 7:40:18 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ziarifleman said-"Do you know what an ad hominem fallacy is? You're also illustrating further why I, and others, think the MOA challenge is bullshit." You think the MOA Challenge is BS because you are not allowed to affix your rifle to rests like this picture of the shootout in Kelby- <a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/marine38/media/IMG_05901.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w165/marine38/IMG_05901.jpg</a> This is an AR15 website where questions are being asked on what performs the best in that rifle and you get pissed when those that actually use that rifle and have evidence to support it is Larue and not your beloved Krieger.
If you like to fix your rifle to a bench and look at wind flags that is fine, but the overwhelming majority here like to learn the rifle and what they are capable of with it in not just a fixed location. If you like to shoot a lot at 100 yards, if you like the MOA All Day thing and/or are limited in the distance you can go by range design, by all means, do that. As for me, once I know for sure what the rifle and ammunition are doing (which necessarily requires eliminating myself as a factor to the greatest extent possible) I'm going to grab a sand sock, load up the bipod and run that out to 800-1000 yards, because I have it on tap. I can plot my hits at distance, see exactly how well I'm operating the equipment, see how that single-digit SD from the chronograph is being reflected and work with wind as I watch the consistency of my elevation come in. Once I have a cold bore shot and zero confirmation I'm not hanging out at 100, burning time and ammunition in an exercise that doesn't further my enjoyment of the rifle's capabilities or teach me to do anything I'm not already doing. Last week I made my second trip to the range with a new rifle after actually having all the adjustments together. After doing a cold bore and splitting hairs with the zero for a while (and ending up where I started) I switched to shooting targets out to 800 for data and practice. At 330 yards I smacked the bolt holding a 3" swinger in place. While my minor wind hold was just a good guess, the elevation spoke for me and the rifle/ammunition. I had a full value R-L wind at 4ish mph on the line and a clear mirage to match it everywhere I looked, which worked perfectly to 600 yards. From there to 800 yards I had the same wind, if a bit stronger, on the line and in the mirage, but after seeing impact at the cross hairs and dust not agreeing with my assessment from 700 on, I was hitting with center holds and holding trailing edge with nicely centered elevation on 9"x11" painted steel. I can't do any of that at 100 yards. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 7:50:00 PM EDT
[#29]
^^^
Some of us are lucky to have unlimited shooting distances to work on, but the 1 MOA Challenge is a down and dirty, do it at your local limited distance shooting club/range, at a distance absolutely everybody has access to. ETA - It's not the end-all be-all, but it damn sure got my attention when I waded into barrel making and I made sure my stuff would hang. 
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Posted: 6/19/2016 7:58:17 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you like to shoot a lot at 100 yards, if you like the MOA All Day thing and/or are limited in the distance you can go by range design, by all means, do that. As for me, once I know for sure what the rifle and ammunition are doing (which necessarily requires eliminating myself as a factor to the greatest extent possible) I'm going to grab a sand sock, load up the bipod and run that out to 800-1000 yards, because I have it on tap. I can plot my hits at distance, see exactly how well I'm operating the equipment, see how that single-digit SD from the chronograph is being reflected and work with wind as I watch the consistency of my elevation come in. Once I have a cold bore shot and zero confirmation I'm not hanging out at 100, burning time and ammunition in an exercise that doesn't further my enjoyment of the rifle's capabilities or teach me to do anything I'm not already doing. Last week I made my second trip to the range with a new rifle after actually having all the adjustments together. After doing a cold bore and splitting hairs with the zero for a while (and ending up where I started) I switched to shooting targets out to 800 for data and practice. At 330 yards I smacked the bolt holding a 3" swinger in place. While my minor wind hold was just a good guess, the elevation spoke for me and the rifle/ammunition. I had a full value R-L wind at 4ish mph on the line and a clear mirage to match it everywhere I looked, which worked perfectly to 600 yards. From there to 800 yards I had the same wind, if a bit stronger, on the line and in the mirage, but after seeing impact at the cross hairs and dust not agreeing with my assessment from 700 on, I was hitting with center holds and holding trailing edge with nicely centered elevation on 9"x11" painted steel. I can't do any of that at 100 yards. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
ziarifleman said-"Do you know what an ad hominem fallacy is? You're also illustrating further why I, and others, think the MOA challenge is bullshit." You think the MOA Challenge is BS because you are not allowed to affix your rifle to rests like this picture of the shootout in Kelby- <a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/marine38/media/IMG_05901.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w165/marine38/IMG_05901.jpg</a> This is an AR15 website where questions are being asked on what performs the best in that rifle and you get pissed when those that actually use that rifle and have evidence to support it is Larue and not your beloved Krieger.
If you like to fix your rifle to a bench and look at wind flags that is fine, but the overwhelming majority here like to learn the rifle and what they are capable of with it in not just a fixed location. If you like to shoot a lot at 100 yards, if you like the MOA All Day thing and/or are limited in the distance you can go by range design, by all means, do that. As for me, once I know for sure what the rifle and ammunition are doing (which necessarily requires eliminating myself as a factor to the greatest extent possible) I'm going to grab a sand sock, load up the bipod and run that out to 800-1000 yards, because I have it on tap. I can plot my hits at distance, see exactly how well I'm operating the equipment, see how that single-digit SD from the chronograph is being reflected and work with wind as I watch the consistency of my elevation come in. Once I have a cold bore shot and zero confirmation I'm not hanging out at 100, burning time and ammunition in an exercise that doesn't further my enjoyment of the rifle's capabilities or teach me to do anything I'm not already doing. Last week I made my second trip to the range with a new rifle after actually having all the adjustments together. After doing a cold bore and splitting hairs with the zero for a while (and ending up where I started) I switched to shooting targets out to 800 for data and practice. At 330 yards I smacked the bolt holding a 3" swinger in place. While my minor wind hold was just a good guess, the elevation spoke for me and the rifle/ammunition. I had a full value R-L wind at 4ish mph on the line and a clear mirage to match it everywhere I looked, which worked perfectly to 600 yards. From there to 800 yards I had the same wind, if a bit stronger, on the line and in the mirage, but after seeing impact at the cross hairs and dust not agreeing with my assessment from 700 on, I was hitting with center holds and holding trailing edge with nicely centered elevation on 9"x11" painted steel. I can't do any of that at 100 yards. The MOA challenge became a dirt shooter comp a while back. on occasion I like to shoot a 5x5 but the idea of dropping 30 bucks in ammo through the creedmoor with a mistake by myself making it no longer contest worthy is silly. I would rather battle Iowa winds and call my shit pulled shots and move on with the loss of a dollar. Im not some sponsored shooter or anyone of importance. I get a known value out of the barrel and do as you mentioned above. I may just plop down a 5x5 on the WOA barrel I got recently just to get a better idea of the accuracy with the cbc 77 grain stuff my noveske likes. I thought about getting a larue barrel when they went on sale but I realized that if for any reason it wasn't a .3 shooter or what ever nonsense we are claiming today it would be completely my fault or that I was biased or something. Very similar to when I bought a PTAC upper just to shoot the piss out of it and was repeatedly called a shill or that it was a lucky specimen and not the rule etc etc etc. At the time though it wasn't larue people were slobbering over it was colt 
Holding up an online unverifiable contest repeatedly as the see it is accurate advertising point seems a bit crazy because it would just take someone seeing mikep at the range and asking him to replicate the results. If he came up even slightly short compared to his results from previous shoots they could scream foul. Kind of like if you repeatedly showed 3 shot groups on separate pieces of paper in the MOA challenge. People would simply not believe that they were shot one after another as it would be too easy to piece them together. Also a bit like having a random poster who has never turned in an MOA submission state what accuracy they got with a few rounds and repeating it as if gospel because no one has ever exaggerated accuracy claims in the past. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 8:12:00 PM EDT
[#31]
I wonder how a LaRue Siete would fare...
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Posted: 6/19/2016 8:15:47 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^ Some of us are lucky to have unlimited shooting distances to work on, but the 1 MOA Challenge is a down and dirty, do it at your local limited distance shooting club/range, at a distance absolutely everybody has access to. ETA - It's not the end-all be-all, but it damn sure got my attention when I waded into barrel making and I made sure my stuff would hang. I cringe for folks not blessed with at least 600 yards to work with. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 8:18:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you like to shoot a lot at 100 yards, if you like the MOA All Day thing and/or are limited in the distance you can go by range design, by all means, do that. As for me, once I know for sure what the rifle and ammunition are doing (which necessarily requires eliminating myself as a factor to the greatest extent possible) I'm going to grab a sand sock, load up the bipod and run that out to 800-1000 yards, because I have it on tap. I can plot my hits at distance, see exactly how well I'm operating the equipment, see how that single-digit SD from the chronograph is being reflected and work with wind as I watch the consistency of my elevation come in. Once I have a cold bore shot and zero confirmation I'm not hanging out at 100, burning time and ammunition in an exercise that doesn't further my enjoyment of the rifle's capabilities or teach me to do anything I'm not already doing. Last week I made my second trip to the range with a new rifle after actually having all the adjustments together. After doing a cold bore and splitting hairs with the zero for a while (and ending up where I started) I switched to shooting targets out to 800 for data and practice. At 330 yards I smacked the bolt holding a 3" swinger in place. While my minor wind hold was just a good guess, the elevation spoke for me and the rifle/ammunition. I had a full value R-L wind at 4ish mph on the line and a clear mirage to match it everywhere I looked, which worked perfectly to 600 yards. From there to 800 yards I had the same wind, if a bit stronger, on the line and in the mirage, but after seeing impact at the cross hairs and dust not agreeing with my assessment from 700 on, I was hitting with center holds and holding trailing edge with nicely centered elevation on 9"x11" painted steel. I can't do any of that at 100 yards. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
ziarifleman said-"Do you know what an ad hominem fallacy is? You're also illustrating further why I, and others, think the MOA challenge is bullshit." You think the MOA Challenge is BS because you are not allowed to affix your rifle to rests like this picture of the shootout in Kelby- <a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/marine38/media/IMG_05901.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w165/marine38/IMG_05901.jpg</a> This is an AR15 website where questions are being asked on what performs the best in that rifle and you get pissed when those that actually use that rifle and have evidence to support it is Larue and not your beloved Krieger.
If you like to fix your rifle to a bench and look at wind flags that is fine, but the overwhelming majority here like to learn the rifle and what they are capable of with it in not just a fixed location. If you like to shoot a lot at 100 yards, if you like the MOA All Day thing and/or are limited in the distance you can go by range design, by all means, do that. As for me, once I know for sure what the rifle and ammunition are doing (which necessarily requires eliminating myself as a factor to the greatest extent possible) I'm going to grab a sand sock, load up the bipod and run that out to 800-1000 yards, because I have it on tap. I can plot my hits at distance, see exactly how well I'm operating the equipment, see how that single-digit SD from the chronograph is being reflected and work with wind as I watch the consistency of my elevation come in. Once I have a cold bore shot and zero confirmation I'm not hanging out at 100, burning time and ammunition in an exercise that doesn't further my enjoyment of the rifle's capabilities or teach me to do anything I'm not already doing. Last week I made my second trip to the range with a new rifle after actually having all the adjustments together. After doing a cold bore and splitting hairs with the zero for a while (and ending up where I started) I switched to shooting targets out to 800 for data and practice. At 330 yards I smacked the bolt holding a 3" swinger in place. While my minor wind hold was just a good guess, the elevation spoke for me and the rifle/ammunition. I had a full value R-L wind at 4ish mph on the line and a clear mirage to match it everywhere I looked, which worked perfectly to 600 yards. From there to 800 yards I had the same wind, if a bit stronger, on the line and in the mirage, but after seeing impact at the cross hairs and dust not agreeing with my assessment from 700 on, I was hitting with center holds and holding trailing edge with nicely centered elevation on 9"x11" painted steel. I can't do any of that at 100 yards. Then you should come to where I live. Even though Colorado is slowing becoming a less firearm friendly state. 
The range I shoot at goes out to around 1600 yards. Many NRA type matches are held here. There is a steel 12" plate at 740 yards that I love shooting with my AR-15's. If I feel I need a change of scenery or want to train in a manner that is not allowed on the range I just head to the hills where I live. Just like you I am lucky to be able to do that. The MOA Challenge is a good gauge on what barrel is capable of extended range shooting. Doing so not being 100% supported tests me, barrel and ammo and I like that. When you get one like the Larue or any other you shoot well that 740 yard plate is easy if you know how to dope wind or adjust your fire. Being a once a Marine always a Marine as far as training will always be me and my rifle and not just relying on something being available to clamp down my weapon. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 8:24:08 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The MOA challenge became a dirt shooter comp a while back. on occasion I like to shoot a 5x5 but the idea of dropping 30 bucks in ammo through the creedmoor with a mistake by myself making it no longer contest worthy is silly. I would rather battle Iowa winds and call my shit pulled shots and move on with the loss of a dollar. Im not some sponsored shooter or anyone of importance. I get a known value out of the barrel and do as you mentioned above. I may just plop down a 5x5 on the WOA barrel I got recently just to get a better idea of the accuracy with the cbc 77 grain stuff my noveske likes. I thought about getting a larue barrel when they went on sale but I realized that if for any reason it wasn't a .3 shooter or what ever nonsense we are claiming today it would be completely my fault or that I was biased or something. Very similar to when I bought a PTAC upper just to shoot the piss out of it and was repeatedly called a shill or that it was a lucky specimen and not the rule etc etc etc. At the time though it wasn't larue people were slobbering over it was colt
Holding up an online unverifiable contest repeatedly as the see it is accurate advertising point seems a bit crazy because it would just take someone seeing mikep at the range and asking him to replicate the results. If he came up even slightly short compared to his results from previous shoots they could scream foul. Kind of like if you repeatedly showed 3 shot groups on separate pieces of paper in the MOA challenge. People would simply not believe that they were shot one after another as it would be too easy to piece them together. Also a bit like having a random poster who has never turned in an MOA submission state what accuracy they got with a few rounds and repeating it as if gospel because no one has ever exaggerated accuracy claims in the past. I definitely hear what you're saying and it it makes certain things less interesting to me. On the clock I'll shoot whatever drill is prescribed, as my ammunition is free and my time is compensated. On my own time and my own dime, I'm going to play the game I like. Having said that, I'll admit that my experience with OBRs and their barrels, which I will only say is significant in scope and sample size, leaves absolutely nothing to be desired in terms of accuracy. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 9:08:56 PM EDT
[#35]
These are older ones set up as an A2. Like NASCAR, it looks GI on the outside.
Latest rifles are set up as "A4s" but with carry handles with irons. This is an older DM, and the latest rifles are very similar. The Marines use Geissele rails (the one shown has a KAC rail over a free-float tube). 
If I was going to set one up with your components I'd use the Larue 12-inch rail. "Big Army Team" rifles have the original Milazzo-Krieger II triggers, Air Force, Navy, and Marines use the Geissele. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 9:20:29 PM EDT
[#36]
H
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder how a LaRue Siete would fare... Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder how a LaRue Siete would fare... Haven't figured out the pics A quiet professional passing through central Texas shot these 5 groups at my request today ... using Siete # S0001 ... 308 ... ABM 175 (same one we had at Shotshow Mil demo day). He was in a rush and shot in one take. Cut !! It's a wrap !! Measured .611" / .578 moa average (with calipers). .6458" / .6168 moa (OnTarget) 100 yards - in our Wormhole. He made the remark that he likely could squeeze a bit more out of it if he had been the one to set it up, i.e., change stock, remount glass, etc. We just finished up last week with customizing a dedicated gun drill for socking the big holes in actions. We're coming along. 
********************************************************************************************************************* ETA - So, taking the quiet rifleman's advice, you know, accuracy and stuff, we changed out the stock. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 9:23:09 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I wonder how a LaRue Siete would fare... A quiet professional passing through central Texas shot these 5 groups at my request today ... using Siete # S0001 ... 308 ... ABM 175 (same one we had at Shotshow Mil demo day). He was in a rush and shot in one take. Cut !! It's a wrap !! Measured .611" / .578 moa average (with calipers). .6458" / .6168 moa (OnTarget) 100 yards - in our Wormhole. He made the remark that he likely could squeeze a bit more out of it if he had been the one to set it up, i.e., change stock, remount glass, etc. We just finished up last week with customizing a dedicated gun drill for socking the big holes in actions. We're coming along. * * ***************************************************************************************************************************************** ETA - So, taking the quiet rifleman's advice, you know, accuracy and stuff, we changed out the stock. You gonna skin that smokewagon or stand there and post about it? |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 11:30:04 PM EDT
[#38]
Another noob question I'm gonna throw out there. If I'm using a Aimpoint T1 and non match ammo does it make sense to go with a Stealth barrel?
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Posted: 6/20/2016 8:30:27 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another noob question I'm gonna throw out there. If I'm using a Aimpoint T1 and non match ammo does it make sense to go with a Stealth barrel? You should shy away from LaRue stuff if you're hellbent on making a bullet-scatterin' gun that you plan on naming ol' lightning, because she never strikes the same place twice.
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Posted: 6/20/2016 9:32:34 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You should shy away from LaRue stuff if you're hellbent on making a bullet-scatterin' gun that you plan on naming ol' lightning, because she never strikes the same place twice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Another noob question I'm gonna throw out there. If I'm using a Aimpoint T1 and non match ammo does it make sense to go with a Stealth barrel? You should shy away from LaRue stuff if you're hellbent on making a bullet-scatterin' gun that you plan on naming ol' lightning, because she never strikes the same place twice. Ole Lightin don't like the sound of gunfire. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 5:41:52 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You should shy away from LaRue stuff if you're hellbent on making a bullet-scatterin' gun that you plan on naming ol' lightning, because she never strikes the same place twice thrice. FIFY |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 7:55:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He knows I espouse 3-shot groups and ship my rifles with 3-shot groups and sees me posting in this thread, hence his 3-shot dig.
For the record, I am privy to stuff, and none, and I do mean none of the long range warfighters I encounter shoot 10-shot groups. To them, it's an exercise in nothing but burning up half a box of cartridges. They want a consistent 2-shot rifle, 1st shot is to get a wind correction, 2nd shot, if needed is to implement the wind correction. ETA - it is nice having Molon back though. He abandoned ARFcom's ship for was it years (?) for one of the high-brow forums for the thinkers , but couldn't take my constant posting of 3-shot groups so, against his principles, came back to defend his 10-shot legacy. Now he's bombarding the board with 10 - 30 shot groups trying to gain back lost legacy ground. It's fun and I'm glad I spooked him out of hiding. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm the last guy Molon should be calling out. I have used my 3 multi-head CNC gundrills to build 10,000+ barrels in-house and at the present own 40% of the Top 40 SPR accuracy spots here on AR15.com. As of yet, I haven't seen any evidence of Molon's barrel making prowess. I shoot 3-shot proof groups on all outgoing rifles. The 3-shot proof is on this board. He didn't call you out. He expressed his preference, with his own data supporting it. I'm fairly sure he's transposed 30 shot composite groups for every barrel he's reviewed. Several have been sub-MOA all day. He knows I espouse 3-shot groups and ship my rifles with 3-shot groups and sees me posting in this thread, hence his 3-shot dig.
For the record, I am privy to stuff, and none, and I do mean none of the long range warfighters I encounter shoot 10-shot groups. To them, it's an exercise in nothing but burning up half a box of cartridges. They want a consistent 2-shot rifle, 1st shot is to get a wind correction, 2nd shot, if needed is to implement the wind correction. ETA - it is nice having Molon back though. He abandoned ARFcom's ship for was it years (?) for one of the high-brow forums for the thinkers , but couldn't take my constant posting of 3-shot groups so, against his principles, came back to defend his 10-shot legacy. Now he's bombarding the board with 10 - 30 shot groups trying to gain back lost legacy ground. It's fun and I'm glad I spooked him out of hiding. Molons post was not a recent thread, its been around for months. He copied and pasted it word for word from a previous thread. He wasn't "calling you or anyone else out". |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 8:57:05 PM EDT
[#43]
^^^
Says you. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 9:09:15 PM EDT
[#44]
105 degrees today and shot again my 20" Stealth barrel.
With the heat waves I was not on my game but the barrel is still a shooter. 
Should have waited on a better day but I like knowing how my rifle and I perform even in extreme conditions. Not an entry in the MOA Challenge. Shot this single target then transitioned to ringing steel at 740 yards before I headed for the truck. If you add this target to my other entry target considering good and bad days it still equals a .585" average shooter. I will keep my "lowly" Larue barrel. It's a shooter even when I am not on my best. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 9:18:40 PM EDT
[#45]
How's that ADI do at 740 yards? What velocity are you getting out of it?
I shot a match recently that required a hit on a sub moa target at 700 yards. I was really impressed with the performance of my 77 TMKs. Held damn near 2" vertical dispersion. There were swirling winds, but I didn't need that much more wind hold than a competitor shooting a 6.5 creedmoor. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 9:33:52 PM EDT
[#46]
I have never run a chronograph while shooting the ADI 69 SMK. Would guess 2700 or less possibly.
Close to 800 yards or a tad more accuracy starts falling off here in Colorado's thinner air. I do know it is easy hitting that plate at 740 yards though. Met a nice fellow vet who observed me doing it today. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 9:37:47 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have never run a chronograph while shooting the ADI 69 SMK. Would guess 2700 or less possibly. Close to 800 yards or a tad more accuracy starts falling off here in Colorado's thinner air. I do know it is easy hitting that plate at 740 yards though. Met a nice fellow vet who observed me doing it today. What is the mil hold on it? |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 9:45:48 PM EDT
[#48]
As far as this thread goes, I don't think anyone is referring to Larue barrels as "lowly".
Mark also never said his barrels are flat out better than Kriegers, just that they can compete, which I think is a fair assessment (again I own and shoot both). Here are some videos of DMR match stages, which in my opinion is the epitome of precision AR use. I doubt anyone will think the [high end] name on the side of their barrel would make any difference in performance. Some of these were with me shooting and some not: A sentry and [slow] k9 pal (300 yards): 
Group of targets [assume planting IED]. Hit the first one and the rest scatter (400 yards).
Targets pop up for 5 seconds then drop. Must identify your color target and engage in 5 seconds. (600 yards, note the wind)
Various targets and distances from various positions up a ridge
When I can shoot the difference between top barrels in these sort of competitions (keep in mind many of these shots were not taken prone), then I will care more about which brand barrel I'm using. Until then, I'm going to take advantage of Larue's sale barrels [after my Krieger is shot out]. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 10:05:22 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is the mil hold on it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have never run a chronograph while shooting the ADI 69 SMK. Would guess 2700 or less possibly. Close to 800 yards or a tad more accuracy starts falling off here in Colorado's thinner air. I do know it is easy hitting that plate at 740 yards though. Met a nice fellow vet who observed me doing it today. What is the mil hold on it? Here is a picture of the hanging plate at 740 yards. Of course camera is zoomed at max. 
If you would like the number to many who see me do it routinely PM me and I will give you there numbers. Better yet come on out and I will do it in front of you... Bring a rifle it may be fun for you as well. I actually used my lower post on my crosshairs today instead of dialing in MOA since I have a Mil/MOA scope. I like knowing where my rifle shoots either dialing in a zero or using the mil dots or lower post as in this case in long range. If shtf you may not have time to dial in a zero before you engage. I would really like the non believers to come to Stengels shooting range here in Colorado. PM me and I will be happy to oblige the negativity. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 10:13:07 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is a picture of the hanging plate at 740 yards. Of course camera is zoomed at max. <a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/marine38/media/003.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w165/marine38/003.jpg</a> <a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/marine38/media/004.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w165/marine38/004.jpg</a> If you would like the number to many who see me do it routinely PM me and I will give you there numbers. Better yet come on out and I will do it in front of you... Bring a rifle it may be fun for you as well. I actually used my lower post on my crosshairs today instead of dialing in MOA since I have a Mil/MOA scope. I like knowing where my rifle shoots either dialing in a zero or using the mil dots or lower post as in this case in long range. If shtf you may not have time to dial in a zero before you engage. I would really like the non believers to come to Stengels shooting range here in Colorado. PM me and I will be happy to oblige the negativity. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have never run a chronograph while shooting the ADI 69 SMK. Would guess 2700 or less possibly. Close to 800 yards or a tad more accuracy starts falling off here in Colorado's thinner air. I do know it is easy hitting that plate at 740 yards though. Met a nice fellow vet who observed me doing it today. What is the mil hold on it? Here is a picture of the hanging plate at 740 yards. Of course camera is zoomed at max. <a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/marine38/media/003.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w165/marine38/003.jpg</a> <a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/marine38/media/004.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w165/marine38/004.jpg</a> If you would like the number to many who see me do it routinely PM me and I will give you there numbers. Better yet come on out and I will do it in front of you... Bring a rifle it may be fun for you as well. I actually used my lower post on my crosshairs today instead of dialing in MOA since I have a Mil/MOA scope. I like knowing where my rifle shoots either dialing in a zero or using the mil dots or lower post as in this case in long range. If shtf you may not have time to dial in a zero before you engage. I would really like the non believers to come to Stengels shooting range here in Colorado. PM me and I will be happy to oblige the negativity. I don't think anyone is disbelieving you? Not sure where you're getting that from. I asked because I was curious as to the performance of the 69SMK at range, wasn't questioning you at all. I haven't shot the 69 grain rounds that much so I was curious. I'm sure the other guy was as well, at least that's how I saw it. In any case, great shooting. |
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