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Posted: 10/7/2015 1:56:36 PM EDT
[#1]
No.
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Posted: 10/7/2015 2:29:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
To get my gas tube to align I had to torque the barrel nut to 85 LBS. Will going over 5 or so LBS cause an issue? Thanks... ft-lbs? |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 2:34:10 PM EDT
[#3]
Won't cause an issue... don't over think it
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Posted: 10/7/2015 2:56:44 PM EDT
[#4]
I think you can go as high as 135 Ft Lbs. not sure. I season the threads of the upper/barrel nut, and on my last twist I torque it to 60FtLbs on all my rifles. None of my rifles have rails that require me to align the gas tube.
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Posted: 10/7/2015 3:10:03 PM EDT
[#5]
I took apart a BCM that required over 150 fl/lbs to break, so I think you're ok...
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Posted: 10/7/2015 3:16:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I took apart a BCM that required over 150 fl/lbs to break, so I think you're ok... It also takes the hammer of Thor to remove the FSB. |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 3:51:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I took apart a BCM that required over 150 fl/lbs to break, so I think you're ok... Geez, I thought my EA was bad at approx. 100. ETA: to put the barrel on. |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 4:04:10 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
To get my gas tube to align I had to torque the barrel nut to 85 LBS. Will going over 5 or so LBS cause an issue? Thanks... Why did you have to go that high? What type of barrel nut are you using? |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 4:32:49 PM EDT
[#9]
Midwest Industries Gen 2 SS onto a PSA upper. The torque wrench is a Harbor Freight special so not sure how accurate it is.
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Posted: 10/7/2015 4:55:44 PM EDT
[#10]
No problem.
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Posted: 10/7/2015 4:57:39 PM EDT
[#11]
M16A2 technical manual says to tighten the barrel nut to 31-35 ft-pounds.
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Posted: 10/7/2015 5:09:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It also takes the hammer of Thor to remove the FSB. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I took apart a BCM that required over 150 fl/lbs to break, so I think you're ok... It also takes the hammer of Thor to remove the FSB. That along with their red Lock Tite gas blocks and mediocre barrels and lowers and I just don't even like most of their stuff.... |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 5:48:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That along with their red Lock Tite gas blocks and mediocre barrels and lowers and I just don't even like most of their stuff.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I took apart a BCM that required over 150 fl/lbs to break, so I think you're ok... It also takes the hammer of Thor to remove the FSB. That along with their red Lock Tite gas blocks and mediocre barrels and lowers and I just don't even like most of their stuff.... Is that the rustle of pitchforks and torches I hear? 
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Posted: 10/7/2015 5:54:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Geez, I thought my EA was bad at approx. 100. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I took apart a BCM that required over 150 fl/lbs to break, so I think you're ok... Geez, I thought my EA was bad at approx. 100. 
1. Torque to loosen a fastener is not equal to what was originally used to torque it 2. NEVER use a torque wrench to loosen a fastener, especially something with relatively high torque such as the barrel nut. Quoted:
Midwest Industries Gen 2 SS onto a PSA upper. The torque wrench is a Harbor Freight special so not sure how accurate it is. You'll be fine. I had to torque the shit out of the MI SS barrel nut on one of my uppers too. If you're uncomfortable with it, you can pull it off and order some shims to see if you can get it to line up with less torque. Also - you'd be surprised how accurate the HF torque wrenches are. When maintained correctly, they're right up there with the big names. |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 6:35:11 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That along with their red Lock Tite gas blocks and mediocre barrels and lowers and I just don't even like most of their stuff.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I took apart a BCM that required over 150 fl/lbs to break, so I think you're ok... It also takes the hammer of Thor to remove the FSB. That along with their red Lock Tite gas blocks and mediocre barrels and lowers and I just don't even like most of their stuff....  
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Posted: 10/7/2015 6:58:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1. Torque to loosen a fastener is not equal to what was originally used to torque it 2. NEVER use a torque wrench to loosen a fastener, especially something with relatively high torque such as the barrel nut. I didn't use a torque wrench to remove it. I had a 1' handle on the wrench and I had my feet off the floor bouncing on the wrench to break the nut. Torquing bolts is kinda my 'thing' in the Petrochem industry. |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 7:18:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Midwest Industries Gen 2 SS onto a PSA upper. The torque wrench is a Harbor Freight special so not sure how accurate it is. In independent testing the HF wrenches have been found to be very accurate. (I was shocked too) Did you burnish the threads by progressively tightening and loosening until you reached final torque/allignment, or did you tighten it down in a single go? If you 'work up to it' in multiple tighten/loosen/tighten steps you may be able to reach alignment with a lower torque. |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 7:51:50 PM EDT
[#18]
Yeah did that. Tightened, loosened, tightened, loosened. Still had to torque it up to 85 ft lbs. 60 ft lbs was close to alignment but not quite there. Bringing it to 85 and back down then back to 85 several times got it to align. Nothing broke. Maybe a shim or two would have got it to align with a little less torque. All said and done it looks great. I'm guessing since nothing broke all is good.
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Posted: 10/7/2015 8:08:12 PM EDT
[#19]
Did you use grease? What grease? It makes a difference. One purpose of the "torque thee times" technique is to distribute grease through the threads on both the upper and the barrel nut, which often scales down the torque needed by quite a bit. While you can open a can of worms by suggesting exactly which grease works (
 ) using a quality, white lithium-based grease with molybdenum disulfide (the MIL-G spec calls for 5%) is best. You can get "good stuff" in small quantities for just a little bit of cash, too.
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Posted: 10/7/2015 9:03:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah did that. Tightened, loosened, tightened, loosened. Still had to torque it up to 85 ft lbs. 60 ft lbs was close to alignment but not quite there. Bringing it to 85 and back down then back to 85 several times got it to align. Nothing broke. Maybe a shim or two would have got it to align with a little less torque. All said and done it looks great. I'm guessing since nothing broke all is good. You are fine, I used two of those recently for builds, one went on at 40 ft lbs, the other at 65 (40 was soooo close, but not quite). |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 9:35:09 PM EDT
[#21]
The first barrel swap I ever did took 95lbs to get everything lined up and I haven't had any issues in the 1200rds I've put through it.
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Posted: 10/8/2015 6:35:05 PM EDT
[#22]
May have ruined the upper. Looks like a few very small cracks showed up under the ejection port. Not sure looks like scratches almost. Hard to tell but I don't think scratched it. I don't have the ability to upload pictures to show what it looks like. I ordered a new stripped upper AND a shim kit just in case. Guess this is how you learn.
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Posted: 10/9/2015 7:55:38 AM EDT
[#23]
There is no way you cracked the upper under the ejection port at 85 ft/lbs following any of the usual installation procedures.
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Posted: 10/9/2015 8:19:24 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is no way you cracked the upper under the ejection port at 85 ft/lbs following any of the usual installation procedures. This. What vise block were you using? |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 8:34:08 AM EDT
[#25]
this took 85 ft lbs
don't over think it |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 8:37:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Midwest Industries Gen 2 SS onto a PSA upper. The torque wrench is a Harbor Freight special so not sure how accurate it is. That's what I use and I was thinking to myself "85, 80, who knows...close enough" I did buy a HF Digital Torque Adapter as a cheap double check. For all those Pros out there....yes I understand HF is not sufficient to build a space shuttle or nuclear power plant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjEP1KMBbAY |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 4:28:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M16A2 technical manual says to tighten the barrel nut to 31-35 ft-pounds. This is the minimum required so it won't loosen. More torque is need 90% of the time to achieve gas tube alignment. |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 5:17:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the minimum required so it won't loosen. More torque is need 90% of the time to achieve gas tube alignment. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
M16A2 technical manual says to tighten the barrel nut to 31-35 ft-pounds. This is the minimum required so it won't loosen. More torque is need 90% of the time to achieve gas tube alignment. Actually, the TM still says 30-80ft/lb, like it always has. Read the whole procedure and you'll see this. Sometimes 35 ft/lb is just not going to happen. But 80 ft/lb is pretty stiff when you're talking about a barrel nut. And the procedure depends on using a quality grease to get the expected torque reading - the grease allows the nut to move more smoothly on the upper. 30 foot pounds of torque is not the minimum "so it won't loosen." It is the minimum called for to solidly secure the barrel in the upper. That gas tube won't let the nut move more than a fraction of a degree, so loosening isn't really going to happen. Getting at least 30 ft/lb will ensure that the barrel is held by the tension of the nut pressing the barrel's flange against the front of the upper. |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 5:34:55 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't use a torque wrench to remove it. I had a 1' handle on the wrench and I had my feet off the floor bouncing on the wrench to break the nut. Torquing bolts is kinda my 'thing' in the Petrochem industry. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
1. Torque to loosen a fastener is not equal to what was originally used to torque it 2. NEVER use a torque wrench to loosen a fastener, especially something with relatively high torque such as the barrel nut. I didn't use a torque wrench to remove it. I had a 1' handle on the wrench and I had my feet off the floor bouncing on the wrench to break the nut. Torquing bolts is kinda my 'thing' in the Petrochem industry. So how can you claim that it took 150 ft/lbs to break like its a scientific fact?
I've had plenty of barrel nuts, lug nuts, oil pan drain plugs, etc that I've torqued to the exact specs and then took an act of God to remove. |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 5:54:15 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 10/9/2015 8:48:27 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So how can you claim that it took 150 ft/lbs to break like its a scientific fact?
I've had plenty of barrel nuts, lug nuts, oil pan drain plugs, etc that I've torqued to the exact specs and then took an act of God to remove. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. Torque to loosen a fastener is not equal to what was originally used to torque it 2. NEVER use a torque wrench to loosen a fastener, especially something with relatively high torque such as the barrel nut. I didn't use a torque wrench to remove it. I had a 1' handle on the wrench and I had my feet off the floor bouncing on the wrench to break the nut. Torquing bolts is kinda my 'thing' in the Petrochem industry. So how can you claim that it took 150 ft/lbs to break like its a scientific fact?
I've had plenty of barrel nuts, lug nuts, oil pan drain plugs, etc that I've torqued to the exact specs and then took an act of God to remove. It is also a scientific fact that torque applied for removal of a fastener is frequently nowhere near what was applied to assemble that fastener, which makes the application of that much force irrelevant. With an AR, the amount of effort needed to start a barrel nut loosening appears to go up with time, rounds fired, rate of fire, and probably a number of other factors. Some people think a lot of manufacturers use LocTite on barrel nuts just because it becomes freaking hard to remove their barrel nuts. Maybe some builders do, but that's not what most people are experiencing. *Highlighted to identify sarcasm. Not meant to be offensive. YMMV. Void where prohibited. If you haven't figured out by now that I was trying to be funny there, I can't help you any further. |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 9:06:09 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So how can you claim that it took 150 ft/lbs to break like its a scientific fact?
I've had plenty of barrel nuts, lug nuts, oil pan drain plugs, etc that I've torqued to the exact specs and then took an act of God to remove. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. Torque to loosen a fastener is not equal to what was originally used to torque it 2. NEVER use a torque wrench to loosen a fastener, especially something with relatively high torque such as the barrel nut. I didn't use a torque wrench to remove it. I had a 1' handle on the wrench and I had my feet off the floor bouncing on the wrench to break the nut. Torquing bolts is kinda my 'thing' in the Petrochem industry. So how can you claim that it took 150 ft/lbs to break like its a scientific fact?
I've had plenty of barrel nuts, lug nuts, oil pan drain plugs, etc that I've torqued to the exact specs and then took an act of God to remove. You actually were able to get God to intervene on loosening barrel nuts, lug nuts, oil pan drain plugs, etc??? You have some really good connections my friend! The irony here, considering your handle!! |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 11:59:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I took apart a BCM that required over 150 fl/lbs to break, so I think you're ok... That doesn't mean it was torqued at 150 ft/lbs. Breakaway torque is always greater than the amount of torque to achieve clamping force. |
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Posted: 10/10/2015 7:29:45 AM EDT
[#34]
85 ft lbs? Did you grease that thing with Aeroshell first?
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Posted: 10/10/2015 7:57:12 AM EDT
[#35]
I used Tetra gun grease. Put it on the threads not the flange. Was the grease the problem or not putting it on the flange or both? Want to learn from this so I don't screw up another upper.
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Posted: 10/10/2015 8:09:24 AM EDT
[#36]
Now for a stupid question. I'm just learning here, this is my first build. I'm going to replace the upper receiver I don't trust it. Pretty sure there are a few small cracks in it. Here's the question. I've staked the gas block. Can I remove the gas tube by only knocking out the pin when I disassemble the upper or can that only be done removing the gas block. Thanks.
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Posted: 10/10/2015 8:12:12 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
this took 85 ft lbs <a href="http://s995.photobucket.com/user/jmosulli7/media/20150920_100455_zpsgwobd6pf.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af75/jmosulli7/20150920_100455_zpsgwobd6pf.jpg</a> don't over think it Sweet Rifle! |
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Posted: 10/10/2015 9:36:07 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now for a stupid question. I'm just learning here, this is my first build. I'm going to replace the upper receiver I don't trust it. Pretty sure there are a few small cracks in it. Here's the question. I've staked the gas block. Can I remove the gas tube by only knocking out the pin when I disassemble the upper or can that only be done removing the gas block. Thanks. |
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Posted: 10/10/2015 10:20:59 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sweet Rifle! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
this took 85 ft lbs <a href="http://s995.photobucket.com/user/jmosulli7/media/20150920_100455_zpsgwobd6pf.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af75/jmosulli7/20150920_100455_zpsgwobd6pf.jpg</a> don't over think it Sweet Rifle! Thanks! |
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Posted: 10/10/2015 10:45:54 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Midwest Industries Gen 2 SS onto a PSA upper. The torque wrench is a Harbor Freight special so not sure how accurate it is. I've got a MI Gen 1 aluminum quad on my Recce. It took about 55lbs to install the supplied barrel nut. My torque wrench is HF too and it's pretty accurate in reading torque as it's as close as the one I have from Napa. |
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Posted: 10/10/2015 11:00:53 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I used Tetra gun grease. Put it on the threads not the flange. Was the grease the problem or not putting it on the flange or both? Want to learn from this so I don't screw up another upper. I would guess Tetra should work although it may have thrown the effective torque off some. I use a grease that meets the mil-spec and put it anywhere metal touches metal. In a properly secured upper you are not going to crack the upper at 85 ft/lbs. I have heard of people tweaking their uppers, but not cracking them under the ejc port. If you cracked the upper you did something outside of the procedures known to work. |
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Posted: 10/10/2015 11:12:41 AM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 10/10/2015 11:21:35 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryLooks like marks from receiver clamp. |
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Posted: 10/10/2015 11:33:32 AM EDT
[#44]
To get the upper to crack you would have to twist it so hard it would also yield and stay bent in a slightly corkscrew shape. Some have done that. Bending is much more likely because it's forged, not cast. The grain of the metal flows with the part and that is what gives it more strength and resilience to bending. Exactly why racing pistons are forgerd, not cast - cast pistons fracture when hammered by knock, forged pistols are actually more elastic and bend further allowing them to absorb the energy without cracking.
If it won't line up at 85 then square the nose or use shims. Doesn't hurt either way and helps to sleep at night. Regardless, AR uppers are extremely difficult to crack - as the Henderson Defense thread on shooting them 200,000 rounds full auto points out. Plus in the service when a 165 pound soldier with 85 pounds of gear falls on one, the buffer tube is more likely to fail than the upper or lower. Mortaring it for a stuck round, same thing - protect the stock and buffer tube. Teams lift fully loaded soldiers into high ground story windows by having them stand on the side of the weapon, hoisting him up from both ends. I don't see it cracking just torqueing down the nut. Check it for square on a flat surface with a flashlight and see if one end or the other is lifted. |
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Posted: 10/10/2015 12:47:14 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryThat is normal. My factory BCM upper has marks like that. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 8:51:07 AM EDT
[#46]
Neither of my BCM uppers looks like that.
It is hard to tell from the pic, but I can’t tell that those are cracks. When installing did you clamp the barrel or the upper? If the upper how did you clamp it? |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 9:17:21 AM EDT
[#47]
i have never exceeded 60 pounds torque installing a barrel nut you either lap and square it or shim it.those alum uppers dont like that kind of stress theres a lot of bad info here.
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Posted: 10/12/2015 4:17:24 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i have never exceeded 60 pounds torque installing a barrel nut you either lap and square it or shim it.those alum uppers dont like that kind of stress theres a lot of bad info here. So the 30-80 ft lbs rating in the TM and other manufacturers armorers manuals is wrong? |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 5:18:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So the 30-80 ft lbs rating in the TM and other manufacturers armorers manuals is wrong? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
i have never exceeded 60 pounds torque installing a barrel nut you either lap and square it or shim it.those alum uppers dont like that kind of stress theres a lot of bad info here. So the 30-80 ft lbs rating in the TM and other manufacturers armorers manuals is wrong? He said he had never exceeded 60, not that the manuals are wrong. You can do a lot of things, like lapping or shimming, to make the barrel nut fit with less than 80 ft-lb of torque. 80 foot pounds of torque is the maximum allowed in the TM because beyond that bad things can happen, like making it even harder to change out the barrel, and potentially damaging the upper with the excessive stress applied to its threads. On the other hand, with an in-spec upper, an in-spec barrel, and an in-spec barrel nut, it's out of the ordinary to get to 80 ft-lb if you follow the TM procedure properly, including using an appropriate grease on the threads. The TM's "torque three times" procedure helps distribute the grease on the upper's and nut's threads, while smoothing over any potentially rough spots on the threads. You can demonstrate to yourself how this process lowers the final torque by seeing how far around the barrel nut goes each successive time you torque to 30 - it will be farther around, sometimes by a couple of notches, each time you get to 30 ft-lb. If you can't get a notch to line up by the time you get to 80 ft-lb, "use a different barrel nut" is the TM's fix. Or, you can look into the problem and maybe find some irregularity on the face of the upper which you can remove by lapping it. Or, it's a unique type of nut and you're stuck with shimming to get things to line up. ALL OF THESE are valid assembly methods, though only the first is allowable for a military armorer. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 5:27:03 PM EDT
[#50]
Get a piece of glass like a welding mask shield, put some fine grit sand paper on it,
sand down the face of the upper, but don't go through the park. Should reduce the torque needed to align the gas to 10 or 20 ft-lbs. If you're worried about it. I'd bet 85 is fine. I had one that took a LOT more than 85, and the above is what I did. |
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