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Posted: 6/29/2015 5:03:18 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: It's amusing to see all the KAC fanboys come out of the woodwork nervously looking and hoping to find validation!  Nervous? Nope. I think it's the opportunity to get some feedback on the E3 system that we'd all like to see put to the test. Regardless of the results it's good information to have. I know my shooting schedule certainly doesn't compare to the OP's so what better opportunity to lay it all out there and see what happens. No agenda here. |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 5:04:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: m411b30]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
No kidding. Nothing has been said that takes anything away from the CHF debate. 15 yard accuracy? Lol. You guys really need to read up on all the LMG testing that was done. CHF was found to be insanely more durable. Not apples to apples comparing LMGs to semi auto ARs, but more durable is more durable. Thing is, I'm tired of getting sucked back into this rehash anyway. Frankly, it is literally the exact same four people who speak out against CHF having any benefits. Every time. Just the same four people. Though droves of people speak out in contrast to that small group of four - that includes engineers and machinists as well. At this point, we should probably just let those four live in their bubble. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
Originally Posted By LeonC:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
This is our first "vacation" (just a quick, two-day drive to the beach) since we opened the range and I promised the wife no business so I'll make it quick with a few points. - we do lose extractors and even lost the extractor on the HK. I don't blame them because we have had extractors break at early round counts and high round counts from the same mfr's. - we've used CHF barrels alongside standard chrome-lined barrels (LMT, J&T, Green Mountain) and though I don't have a true round count, they were put online at about the same time with the same amount of use and one didn't do "better" than the other. Remember, my only concern for accuracy is that it can hit the red center of a target at 15 yards. V/R Ron This is sig line material, at the very minimum just to quick reference everytime the question comes up which is almost daily. I'd like to see data from 50 yards + Kind of hard to judge loss of accuracy from 15 yards. No kidding. Nothing has been said that takes anything away from the CHF debate. 15 yard accuracy? Lol. You guys really need to read up on all the LMG testing that was done. CHF was found to be insanely more durable. Not apples to apples comparing LMGs to semi auto ARs, but more durable is more durable. Thing is, I'm tired of getting sucked back into this rehash anyway. Frankly, it is literally the exact same four people who speak out against CHF having any benefits. Every time. Just the same four people. Though droves of people speak out in contrast to that small group of four - that includes engineers and machinists as well. At this point, we should probably just let those four live in their bubble. +1 - It's getting pretty tiring already, and CHF has more than proven to be more durable.... Originally Posted By RussellAthletic:
Nervous? Nope. I think it's the opportunity to get some feedback on the E3 system that we'd all like to see put to the test. Regardless of the results it's good information to have. I know my shooting schedule certainly doesn't compare to the OP's so what better opportunity to lay it all out there and see what happens. No agenda here. I agree with this also, and I'm by no means a fanboy of KAC. Don't own one piece of gear with that name on it... |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 5:05:32 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks for sharing.
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Posted: 6/29/2015 5:34:44 PM EDT
[#4]
Very cool, OP. I miss running guns into the ground for a living.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/29/2015 7:45:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
No kidding. Nothing has been said that takes anything away from the CHF debate. 15 yard accuracy? Lol. You guys really need to read up on all the LMG testing that was done. CHF was found to be insanely more durable. Not apples to apples comparing LMGs to semi auto ARs, but more durable is more durable. Thing is, I'm tired of getting sucked back into this rehash anyway. Frankly, it is literally the exact same four people who speak out against CHF having any benefits. Every time. Just the same four people. Though droves of people speak out in contrast to that small group of four - that includes engineers and machinists as well. At this point, we should probably just let those four live in their bubble. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
Originally Posted By LeonC:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
This is our first "vacation" (just a quick, two-day drive to the beach) since we opened the range and I promised the wife no business so I'll make it quick with a few points. - we do lose extractors and even lost the extractor on the HK. I don't blame them because we have had extractors break at early round counts and high round counts from the same mfr's. - we've used CHF barrels alongside standard chrome-lined barrels (LMT, J&T, Green Mountain) and though I don't have a true round count, they were put online at about the same time with the same amount of use and one didn't do "better" than the other. Remember, my only concern for accuracy is that it can hit the red center of a target at 15 yards. V/R Ron This is sig line material, at the very minimum just to quick reference everytime the question comes up which is almost daily. I'd like to see data from 50 yards + Kind of hard to judge loss of accuracy from 15 yards. No kidding. Nothing has been said that takes anything away from the CHF debate. 15 yard accuracy? Lol. You guys really need to read up on all the LMG testing that was done. CHF was found to be insanely more durable. Not apples to apples comparing LMGs to semi auto ARs, but more durable is more durable. Thing is, I'm tired of getting sucked back into this rehash anyway. Frankly, it is literally the exact same four people who speak out against CHF having any benefits. Every time. Just the same four people. Though droves of people speak out in contrast to that small group of four - that includes engineers and machinists as well. At this point, we should probably just let those four live in their bubble. I had barrels from before we even opened the range with 1,000's of rounds on them from J&T Distributing (chrome-lined) that didn't keyhole well into the 80,000-100,000 range. Your the one in the bubble, convinced yourself that CHF is better and there is nothing that will prove you wrong. I have an open mind, I just have NOT seen or read actual proof and I will feel the same way until proven other wise. If the op had came and said he noticed a clear differance in CHF life over button rifled barrels I would acknowledge them as better as he appears to have real values with multiple weapons. Snce he did not, your trying to debunk what he is saying. This is real actual data, not computer analysis. He instead stated what i have always felt that there is no noticable differance. I guess the op is just mistaken about these standard barrels lasting 80k rounds... Oh, wait it was only done at 15 yards... If it was done at 50... Well it was only 50, do the test at 100 and so on. |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 7:50:23 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By M4Tank:
Your the one in the bubble, convinced yourself that CHF is better and there is nothing that will prove you wrong. I have an open mind, I just have NOT seen or read actual proof and I will feel the same way until proven other wise. If the op had came and said he noticed a clear differance in CHF life over button rifled barrels I would acknowledge them as better as he appears to have real values with multiple weapons. Snce he did not, your trying to debunk what he is saying. This is real actual data, not computer analysis. He instead stated what i have always felt that there is no noticable differance. I guess the op is just mistaken about these standard barrels lasting 80k rounds... Oh, wait it was only done at 15 yards... If it was done at 50... Well it was only 50, do the test at 100 and so on. Technical Report ARWSE-TR-10006, M4 CARBINE FORGED BARREL STUDY REPORT is pretty interesting study were they tested various manufacturing processes using similar barrel steels. however it contains proprietary information that can access via DTIC with a CAC, but is not releasable. A couple of the take away from the report is with the current barrel steel used by the military, CHF only gives marginal improvements, while other steels they got significantly more improvements. And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd when button rifled really suck |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 7:52:15 PM EDT
[#7]
What are you missing? And how am I debunking anything he said? He admitted his accuracy tests are done at 15 yards. Even a shot out barrel is capable of grouping at 15 yards. Do you really find 15 yards an adequate base for how barrels hold up over time pertaining to accuracy?
As I said, research LMG tests that have been done. CHF barrels have proven to be extremely more durable. This is fact. Go do some research. I'm not gonna do it for you. And by all means, continue to ignore engineers and machinists. They have explained down to even a molecular level why CHF yields a more durable steel. I'm living in a bubble? Lol. I just haven't buried my head in the sand. |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 7:59:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N:
Technical Report ARWSE-TR-10006, M4 CARBINE FORGED BARREL STUDY REPORT is pretty interesting study were they tested various manufacturing processes using similar barrel steels. however it contains proprietary information that can access via DTIC with a CAC, but is not releasable. A couple of the take away from the report is with the current barrel steel used by the military, CHF only gives marginal improvements, while other steels they got significantly more improvements. And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd when button rifled really suck Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By M4Tank:
Your the one in the bubble, convinced yourself that CHF is better and there is nothing that will prove you wrong. I have an open mind, I just have NOT seen or read actual proof and I will feel the same way until proven other wise. If the op had came and said he noticed a clear differance in CHF life over button rifled barrels I would acknowledge them as better as he appears to have real values with multiple weapons. Snce he did not, your trying to debunk what he is saying. This is real actual data, not computer analysis. He instead stated what i have always felt that there is no noticable differance. I guess the op is just mistaken about these standard barrels lasting 80k rounds... Oh, wait it was only done at 15 yards... If it was done at 50... Well it was only 50, do the test at 100 and so on. Technical Report ARWSE-TR-10006, M4 CARBINE FORGED BARREL STUDY REPORT is pretty interesting study were they tested various manufacturing processes using similar barrel steels. however it contains proprietary information that can access via DTIC with a CAC, but is not releasable. A couple of the take away from the report is with the current barrel steel used by the military, CHF only gives marginal improvements, while other steels they got significantly more improvements. And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd when button rifled really suck No surprises there. |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 8:03:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
What are you missing? And how am I debunking anything he said? He admitted his accuracy tests are done at 15 yards. Even a shot out barrel is capable of grouping at 15 yards. Do you really find 15 yards an adequate base for how barrels hold up over time pertaining to accuracy? As I said, research LMG tests that have been done. CHF barrels have proven to be extremely more durable. This is fact. Go do some research. I'm not gonna do it for you. And by all means, continue to ignore engineers and machinists. They have explained down to even a molecular level why CHF yields a more durable steel. I'm living in a bubble? Lol. I just haven't buried my head in the sand. Im with you brother, a handful of us versus the world. If they don't want chf thats fine, but I don't undertstand the smugness and hissy fits people throw because I spent an extra 50 bucks on some of my barrels when ill be spending tens of thousands of dollars on this expensive hobby in my lifetime lol. |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 8:11:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
What are you missing? And how am I debunking anything he said? He admitted his accuracy tests are done at 15 yards. Even a shot out barrel is capable of grouping at 15 yards. Do you really find 15 yards an adequate base for how barrels hold up over time pertaining to accuracy? As I said, research LMG tests that have been done. CHF barrels have proven to be extremely more durable. This is fact. Go do some research. I'm not gonna do it for you. And by all means, continue to ignore engineers and machinists. They have explained down to even a molecular level why CHF yields a more durable steel. I'm living in a bubble? Lol. I just haven't buried my head in the sand. I agree. I look at the CHF process to traditional barrel making as SIMILAR to forged vs. cast lowers. Tighter grain structure makes a difference in how steel behaves. How much that shows up in barrel longevity? It's hard to say unless you took a bunch of each made by the same manufacturers and put them under the same exact stresses. But to say CHF and standard are absolutely no different is not something I would agree with. The hard part is putting "how much more" or "how much longer" into answerable form. But I can say that tighter packed granular structure in steel has an effect on everything from how it welds to impact stresses to malleability and brittleness. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/29/2015 8:13:46 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
No surprises there. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By M4Tank:
Your the one in the bubble, convinced yourself that CHF is better and there is nothing that will prove you wrong. I have an open mind, I just have NOT seen or read actual proof and I will feel the same way until proven other wise. If the op had came and said he noticed a clear differance in CHF life over button rifled barrels I would acknowledge them as better as he appears to have real values with multiple weapons. Snce he did not, your trying to debunk what he is saying. This is real actual data, not computer analysis. He instead stated what i have always felt that there is no noticable differance. I guess the op is just mistaken about these standard barrels lasting 80k rounds... Oh, wait it was only done at 15 yards... If it was done at 50... Well it was only 50, do the test at 100 and so on. Technical Report ARWSE-TR-10006, M4 CARBINE FORGED BARREL STUDY REPORT is pretty interesting study were they tested various manufacturing processes using similar barrel steels. however it contains proprietary information that can access via DTIC with a CAC, but is not releasable. A couple of the take away from the report is with the current barrel steel used by the military, CHF only gives marginal improvements, while other steels they got significantly more improvements. And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd when button rifled really suck No surprises there. I've always felt if you want a better barrel you gotta use different materials. |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 8:19:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MILSPEC556:
I agree. I look at the CHF process to traditional barrel making as SIMILAR to forged vs. cast lowers. Tighter grain structure makes a difference in how steel behaves. How much that shows up in barrel longevity? It's hard to say unless you took a bunch of each made by the same manufacturers and put them under the same exact stresses. But to say CHF and standard are absolutely no different is not something I would agree with. The hard part is putting "how much more" or "how much longer" into answerable form. But I can say that tighter packed granular structure in steel has an effect on everything from how it welds to impact stresses to malleability and brittleness. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
What are you missing? And how am I debunking anything he said? He admitted his accuracy tests are done at 15 yards. Even a shot out barrel is capable of grouping at 15 yards. Do you really find 15 yards an adequate base for how barrels hold up over time pertaining to accuracy? As I said, research LMG tests that have been done. CHF barrels have proven to be extremely more durable. This is fact. Go do some research. I'm not gonna do it for you. And by all means, continue to ignore engineers and machinists. They have explained down to even a molecular level why CHF yields a more durable steel. I'm living in a bubble? Lol. I just haven't buried my head in the sand. I agree. I look at the CHF process to traditional barrel making as SIMILAR to forged vs. cast lowers. Tighter grain structure makes a difference in how steel behaves. How much that shows up in barrel longevity? It's hard to say unless you took a bunch of each made by the same manufacturers and put them under the same exact stresses. But to say CHF and standard are absolutely no different is not something I would agree with. The hard part is putting "how much more" or "how much longer" into answerable form. But I can say that tighter packed granular structure in steel has an effect on everything from how it welds to impact stresses to malleability and brittleness. Don't use too much logic. Some people's heads may explode. And you're a guy who solely uses non CHF Colt barrels as well... |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 8:21:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
Don't use too much logic. Some people's heads may explode. And you're a guy who solely uses non CHF Colt barrels as well... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
What are you missing? And how am I debunking anything he said? He admitted his accuracy tests are done at 15 yards. Even a shot out barrel is capable of grouping at 15 yards. Do you really find 15 yards an adequate base for how barrels hold up over time pertaining to accuracy? As I said, research LMG tests that have been done. CHF barrels have proven to be extremely more durable. This is fact. Go do some research. I'm not gonna do it for you. And by all means, continue to ignore engineers and machinists. They have explained down to even a molecular level why CHF yields a more durable steel. I'm living in a bubble? Lol. I just haven't buried my head in the sand. I agree. I look at the CHF process to traditional barrel making as SIMILAR to forged vs. cast lowers. Tighter grain structure makes a difference in how steel behaves. How much that shows up in barrel longevity? It's hard to say unless you took a bunch of each made by the same manufacturers and put them under the same exact stresses. But to say CHF and standard are absolutely no different is not something I would agree with. The hard part is putting "how much more" or "how much longer" into answerable form. But I can say that tighter packed granular structure in steel has an effect on everything from how it welds to impact stresses to malleability and brittleness. Don't use too much logic. Some people's heads may explode. And you're a guy who solely uses non CHF Colt barrels as well... Correct. I'm just a welder with a decent amount of schooling on the metallurgy of steel and aluminum, although I do not buy CHF barrels because they are not clone correct. 
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Posted: 6/29/2015 10:02:28 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N:
Technical Report ARWSE-TR-10006, M4 CARBINE FORGED BARREL STUDY REPORT is pretty interesting study were they tested various manufacturing processes using similar barrel steels. however it contains proprietary information that can access via DTIC with a CAC, but is not releasable. A couple of the take away from the report is with the current barrel steel used by the military, CHF only gives marginal improvements, while other steels they got significantly more improvements. And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd when button rifled really suck Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By M4Tank:
Your the one in the bubble, convinced yourself that CHF is better and there is nothing that will prove you wrong. I have an open mind, I just have NOT seen or read actual proof and I will feel the same way until proven other wise. If the op had came and said he noticed a clear differance in CHF life over button rifled barrels I would acknowledge them as better as he appears to have real values with multiple weapons. Snce he did not, your trying to debunk what he is saying. This is real actual data, not computer analysis. He instead stated what i have always felt that there is no noticable differance. I guess the op is just mistaken about these standard barrels lasting 80k rounds... Oh, wait it was only done at 15 yards... If it was done at 50... Well it was only 50, do the test at 100 and so on. Technical Report ARWSE-TR-10006, M4 CARBINE FORGED BARREL STUDY REPORT is pretty interesting study were they tested various manufacturing processes using similar barrel steels. however it contains proprietary information that can access via DTIC with a CAC, but is not releasable. A couple of the take away from the report is with the current barrel steel used by the military, CHF only gives marginal improvements, while other steels they got significantly more improvements. And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd when button rifled really suck Why the hell would anybody hammer forge a bore only to button rifle it? |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 10:09:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HeavyMetal]
[#15]
They wouldn't, you have a reading comprehension failure.
He is comparing steels and processes And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd when button rifled really suck It's the first part you are missing. |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 10:14:54 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal:
They wouldn't, you have a reading comprehension failure. He is comparing steels and processes . It's the first part you are missing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal:
They wouldn't, you have a reading comprehension failure. He is comparing steels and processes And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd , when button rifled really suck It's the first part you are missing. Negative |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 10:33:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dieselman:
He stated in his high round count pistol thread the following about Federal and why they use Magtech instead : Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dieselman:
Originally Posted By pezboytate:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By zackmars:
Do you use any BCM's? What ammo do you run? M193? We used Magtech .223 ammo until they got a military contract and couldn't keep up with production. If fairness, they told us 6-8 months in advance that they were pretty sure a contract was coming and that we needed to make sure we had another supplier available in the event they got it. Magtech has been the cleanest of all the ammo we used followed closely by Privi Partizan. I try to avoid Federal and will only use them if no other suppliers are available with the exception of the .50 BMG round. We are currently using Wolf Gold series of brass case ammo. We've gone through over 500,000 rounds with zero issues. It burns clean and pretty damn close to 5.56mm spec's even though it's listed as .223 Remington. V/R Ron Why is this? He stated in his high round count pistol thread the following about Federal and why they use Magtech instead : We use their ammo for several reasons.. honesty, quality and reliability. We've dealt with Federal/ATK over the years and THE MOMENT there is any type of ammo hysteria they will immediately cancel all existing orders and be gracious enough to let us re-order the same ammo at a higher price. Magtech has never pulled that on us and always kept an open order regardless of any sales hype. The ammo has always run clean in our weapons and the ammo has been consistent from lot to lot. Lastly, all of our weapons function on it where others are loaded to light or primers back out and jam the weapons.
The honesty is the biggest concern for me because there's nothing like getting an email from Federal ATK saying that all the ammo that we agreed to sell you two months ago is much more valuable now and we are going back on our word. Well, no more federal for me 
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Posted: 6/29/2015 10:34:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brutus2:
Negative Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brutus2:
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
They wouldn't, you have a reading comprehension failure. He is comparing steels and processes And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd , when button rifled really suck It's the first part you are missing. Negative He's saying that steels known for durability when they are CHFd "really suck" when button rifled. Hence a particular steel is durable when CHFd, but that same steel is not durable when button rifled instead of CHFd. |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 10:38:20 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
He's saying that steels known for durability when they are CHFd "really suck" when button rifled. Hence a particular steel is durable when CHFd, but that same steel is not durable when button rifled instead of CHFd. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
Originally Posted By Brutus2:
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
They wouldn't, you have a reading comprehension failure. He is comparing steels and processes And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd , when button rifled really suck It's the first part you are missing. Negative He's saying that steels known for durability when they are CHFd "really suck" when button rifled. Hence a particular steel is durable when CHFd, but that same steel is not durable when button rifled instead of CHFd. Damn it... Thats what i get for Arfcoming -n-drinking 
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Posted: 6/29/2015 10:41:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By peecmkr45:
When using BCG's manufactured by other than DD or LMT what failures did you see. You have mentioned failures of individual bolt components such as cam pins, bolt lugs etc. Other than the shearing of gas key screws(you mentioned gas tube shearing off) what can fail on the bolt carrier itself? I would think these would last indefinitely. Keep the real world experience coming. It is pretty rare to get this type of info on high round count rifles and parts. There have been instances where changing a bolt wouldn't correct the malfunction issues but swapping out carriers did correct the issue. I don't know what exactly "wears" out but if I didn't personally see it with my eyes I would've doubted it myself. V/R Ron |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 10:45:52 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brutus2:
Negative Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brutus2:
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
They wouldn't, you have a reading comprehension failure. He is comparing steels and processes And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd , when button rifled really suck It's the first part you are missing. Negative He is not saying you button rifle a barrel already CHFged. He is saying that a particular steel or steels that does wonderfully when it gets the CHF treatment, sucks when you use it for button rifling. You are getting hung up on the barrel, he is comparing steels and processes. |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 10:49:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal:
He is not saying you button rifle a barrel already CHFged. He is saying that a particular steel or steels that does wonderfully when it gets the CHF treatment, sucks when you use it for button rifling. You are getting hung up on the barrel, he is comparing steels and processes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Originally Posted By Brutus2:
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
They wouldn't, you have a reading comprehension failure. He is comparing steels and processes And steels that are known for the durability while CHFd , when button rifled really suck It's the first part you are missing. Negative He is not saying you button rifle a barrel already CHFged. He is saying that a particular steel or steels that does wonderfully when it gets the CHF treatment, sucks when you use it for button rifling. You are getting hung up on the barrel, he is comparing steels and processes. Yep, my mistake ( with the help of 3 pottent Tito's vodka greyhounds) |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 10:49:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HendersonDefense:
There have been instances where changing a bolt wouldn't correct the malfunction issues but swapping out carriers did correct the issue. I don't know what exactly "wears" out but if I didn't personally see it with my eyes I would've doubted it myself. V/R Ron Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By peecmkr45:
When using BCG's manufactured by other than DD or LMT what failures did you see. You have mentioned failures of individual bolt components such as cam pins, bolt lugs etc. Other than the shearing of gas key screws(you mentioned gas tube shearing off) what can fail on the bolt carrier itself? I would think these would last indefinitely. Keep the real world experience coming. It is pretty rare to get this type of info on high round count rifles and parts. There have been instances where changing a bolt wouldn't correct the malfunction issues but swapping out carriers did correct the issue. I don't know what exactly "wears" out but if I didn't personally see it with my eyes I would've doubted it myself. V/R Ron Likely something with the Key. |
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Posted: 6/30/2015 9:20:19 AM EDT
[#24]
Anybody have a link to the AK thread?
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Posted: 6/30/2015 12:35:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CWmechanic:
Anybody have a link to the AK thread? Here ya go. Both threads have much good info (Thanks Henderson Defense- will look you up next Vegas trip). Henderson Defense AK thread HTH 
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Posted: 6/30/2015 1:08:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HendersonDefense:
This is our first "vacation" (just a quick, two-day drive to the beach) since we opened the range and I promised the wife no business so I'll make it quick with a few points. - we do lose extractors and even lost the extractor on the HK. I don't blame them because we have had extractors break at early round counts and high round counts from the same mfr's. - we've used CHF barrels alongside standard chrome-lined barrels (LMT, J&T, Green Mountain) and though I don't have a true round count, they were put online at about the same time with the same amount of use and one didn't do "better" than the other. Remember, my only concern for accuracy is that it can hit the red center of a target at 15 yards. V/R Ron I have a question for you, Ron. How is the barrel and parts wear on full size 20" ARs vs. the carbines? Do the full size 20" ARs wear out bolts, extractors, buffer springs, barrels, etc at a slower rate than the carbine guns? If so, how much of a wear difference is there between the two in your experience? What brand of full size 20" ARs do you rent? How often to you replace buffer springs on the carbines / full size 20" AR rifles? Ever consider switching to the chrome silicon SPRINCO springs? I saw in your AK thread some pics of Garands, etc in the repair bin. How well do M1 Garands, M14s, and M1 carbines hold up? Thanks! |
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Posted: 6/30/2015 1:55:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HendersonDefense]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain:
I have a question for you, Ron. How is the barrel and parts wear on full size 20" ARs vs. the carbines? Do the full size 20" ARs wear out bolts, extractors, buffer springs, barrels, etc at a slower rate than the carbine guns? If so, how much of a wear difference is there between the two in your experience? What brand of full size 20" ARs do you rent? How often to you replace buffer springs on the carbines / full size 20" AR rifles? Ever consider switching to the chrome silicon SPRINCO springs? I saw in your AK thread some pics of Garands, etc in the repair bin. How well do M1 Garands, M14s, and M1 carbines hold up? Thanks! The 20" weapons get used daily but only about a fifth of the time as the shorter barreled units. I'll have to check the maintenance logs but I don't believe we've lost any bolts, carriers or any other major components in one of them. ETA: the armorers have a yard stick glued to the table with measurements for each weapon system's minimum recoil spring length. They checked on a regular basis and swapped as needed. As for the vintage rifles, the commercial Springfield Armory op rods have broke several times in the M14's, Garand op rods have worn out and cracked but they were all 40's vintage with who knows how many rounds through them. Lastly, the M2 carbines have lost several Op rods, bolts have cracked as well extractors breaking on a regular basis. V/R Ron |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/30/2015 3:13:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#28]
(ammo; rifle <--- bogus spam link auto-inserted by AR15.com sometimes that appears the first time this word shows up in a post as viewed by a non-Team member, so putting it the words here to get them out of the way)
Three more questions (hope you're enjoying your vacation!): 1. There is some controversy over if the Forward Assist is really needed. It wasn't in Stoner's original design, and reportedly he wasn't a big supporter of it. At your range, do you guys ever find you need to use it? Particularly since your guns see so many rounds fired, maybe the chambers gunk up and it's a good thing to have after all? 2. Supposedly the Steyr AUG's are some very tough guns. Do you have any, and any commentary on how long they last compared to the AR platform? 3. (optional, as you may have reasons to not discuss). With as many rounds fired, do you ever experience Kabooms? And do you know why? Supposedly factory Ammo can have a bad one slip through and kaboom a good gun (if threads here are to be believed). With your round count, I'm guessing for sure you would have seen that by now. Any data and commentary on that? Frequency of occurrence? (And on a final note - thank you yet again for these threads. They are incredibly informative and fun to read too. Should I find myself in Vegas, I now have to stop by and check out your operation! Sometimes some of us AR15.com members get off on tangents and forget the pleasantries with each other in some of the replies here. Happens. But know that your thread is fantastic and much appreciated!) |
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Posted: 6/30/2015 4:28:24 PM EDT
[#29]
Now THIS has been a thread worth reading all six pages!
As a Colt fanboy I'm curious if you've used Colt products and how they've held up. Inferior to the DD and LMT pieces, as they're fanbois claim, or just as good? How do the Colt barrels last compared to the PSA units? Although I realize there is a cost difference here and your decisions are based on those costs. Thanks for the thread. If I'm ever in Vegas I'll have to stop by for some fun and guns!
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OH, USA
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Posted: 6/30/2015 6:01:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Spent_Casing]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricochet7: Here ya go. Both threads have much good info (Thanks Henderson Defense- will look you up next Vegas trip). Henderson Defense AK thread HTH Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricochet7: Originally Posted By CWmechanic: Anybody have a link to the AK thread? Here ya go. Both threads have much good info (Thanks Henderson Defense- will look you up next Vegas trip). Henderson Defense AK thread HTH FYI, He also has a handgun thread in the Handgun GD. Its just as good as these two. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/160140_High_round_count_pistols__100_000___observations.html |
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Posted: 6/30/2015 7:21:01 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer:
(ammo; rifle <--- bogus spam link auto-inserted by AR15.com sometimes that appears the first time this word shows up in a post as viewed by a non-Team member, so putting it the words here to get them out of the way) Three more questions (hope you're enjoying your vacation!): 1. There is some controversy over if the Forward Assist is really needed. It wasn't in Stoner's original design, and reportedly he wasn't a big supporter of it. At your range, do you guys ever find you need to use it? Particularly since your guns see so many rounds fired, maybe the chambers gunk up and it's a good thing to have after all? 2. Supposedly the Steyr AUG's are some very tough guns. Do you have any, and any commentary on how long they last compared to the AR platform? 3. (optional, as you may have reasons to not discuss). With as many rounds fired, do you ever experience Kabooms? And do you know why? Supposedly factory Ammo can have a bad one slip through and kaboom a good gun (if threads here are to be believed). With your round count, I'm guessing for sure you would have seen that by now. Any data and commentary on that? Frequency of occurrence? (And on a final note - thank you yet again for these threads. They are incredibly informative and fun to read too. Should I find myself in Vegas, I now have to stop by and check out your operation! Sometimes some of us AR15.com members get off on tangents and forget the pleasantries with each other in some of the replies here. Happens. But know that your thread is fantastic and much appreciated!) I had my manager send a RSO-wide text and the only time they ever use them is with the CMMG .22 conversion kits. With AUG, I know we've broken at least one bolt, several firing pin springs, at least one extractor and a few firing pins. We've had a few kabooms but only in the AR and AK platforms. The AK's could be contributed both to ammo and high round count. We had a particular AR mfg's barrels kaboom on us. Initially we thought it was a hot round but it happened two more times so we pulled the barrels (Scared the hell out of the customers and I bought each of the dinner at The Palm Resturaunt which they all enjoyed). The hot ammo was from a company that loads rounds with lake city pull-downs and that's all we could source during a ammo sales scare/hype. We sent the other 140,000 rounds back on their dime. I'm not going to say who the barrels were mfg'ed by because it was contained to a certain lot and they got us squared away immediately. We've seen the occasional projectile loaded upside down in Federal ammo when used it but I've seen other companies do that as well. V/R Ron |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 6/30/2015 7:25:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HendersonDefense:
I had my manager send a RSO-wide text and the only time they ever use them is with the CMMG .22 conversion kits. With AUG, I know we've broken at least one bolt, several firing pin springs, at least one extractor and a few firing pins. We've had a few kabooms but only in the AR and AK platforms. The AK's could be contributed both to ammo and high round count. We had a particular AR mfg's barrels kaboom on us. Initially we thought it was a hot round but it happened two more times so we pulled the barrels (Scared the hell out of the customers and I bought each of the dinner at The Palm Resturaunt which they all enjoyed). The hot ammo was from a company that loads rounds with lake city pull-downs and that's all we could source during a ammo sales scare/hype. We sent the other 140,000 rounds back on their dime. I'm not going to say who the barrels were mfg'ed by because it was contained to a certain lot and they got us squared away immediately. We've seen the occasional projectile loaded upside down in Federal ammo when used it but I've seen other companies do that as well. V/R Ron Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
(ammo; rifle <--- bogus spam link auto-inserted by AR15.com sometimes that appears the first time this word shows up in a post as viewed by a non-Team member, so putting it the words here to get them out of the way) Three more questions (hope you're enjoying your vacation!): 1. There is some controversy over if the Forward Assist is really needed. It wasn't in Stoner's original design, and reportedly he wasn't a big supporter of it. At your range, do you guys ever find you need to use it? Particularly since your guns see so many rounds fired, maybe the chambers gunk up and it's a good thing to have after all? 2. Supposedly the Steyr AUG's are some very tough guns. Do you have any, and any commentary on how long they last compared to the AR platform? 3. (optional, as you may have reasons to not discuss). With as many rounds fired, do you ever experience Kabooms? And do you know why? Supposedly factory Ammo can have a bad one slip through and kaboom a good gun (if threads here are to be believed). With your round count, I'm guessing for sure you would have seen that by now. Any data and commentary on that? Frequency of occurrence? (And on a final note - thank you yet again for these threads. They are incredibly informative and fun to read too. Should I find myself in Vegas, I now have to stop by and check out your operation! Sometimes some of us AR15.com members get off on tangents and forget the pleasantries with each other in some of the replies here. Happens. But know that your thread is fantastic and much appreciated!) I had my manager send a RSO-wide text and the only time they ever use them is with the CMMG .22 conversion kits. With AUG, I know we've broken at least one bolt, several firing pin springs, at least one extractor and a few firing pins. We've had a few kabooms but only in the AR and AK platforms. The AK's could be contributed both to ammo and high round count. We had a particular AR mfg's barrels kaboom on us. Initially we thought it was a hot round but it happened two more times so we pulled the barrels (Scared the hell out of the customers and I bought each of the dinner at The Palm Resturaunt which they all enjoyed). The hot ammo was from a company that loads rounds with lake city pull-downs and that's all we could source during a ammo sales scare/hype. We sent the other 140,000 rounds back on their dime. I'm not going to say who the barrels were mfg'ed by because it was contained to a certain lot and they got us squared away immediately. We've seen the occasional projectile loaded upside down in Federal ammo when used it but I've seen other companies do that as well. V/R Ron This thread is wonderful. You are wonderful. Your business is wonderful. Really want to rent some FA guns from you now... |
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Posted: 6/30/2015 8:17:36 PM EDT
[#33]
Sincere thanks for all three threads.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/30/2015 10:05:55 PM EDT
[#34]
This is cool. I am jealous. Have y'all ever used BCM bolts or any other of their components?
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Posted: 6/30/2015 10:51:28 PM EDT
[#35]
This thread needs to be pinned.
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AR, USA
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Posted: 6/30/2015 11:18:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Thank you very much for all this rare information. I'd be really interested how different rifles such as BCM, DD, Colt, Knights, PSA, ect. perform when pushed to high round counts. Will definitely be hitting y'all up when I come to Vegas in November.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 12:45:49 AM EDT
[#37]
Amazing thread!
Ron, just to echo nearly everyone else here, even if you were able to get your hands on just a couple Knights SR16s or even just a few SR15 uppers, the information would be incredibly valuable. Since you mentioned you don't stay on top of what's hot, in short, the KAC system has a redesigned bolt interface where the lugs are rounded instead of all the square edges and a few other upgrades. They claim one has never broken yet IIRC. None of us can really practically put enough rounds at enough rate down to verify the claim, so it's hard to tell. If anything, it'd just be fascinating to hear reports of how they'd perform at your establishment … mostly because if the claims are true, IMO, it's a pretty awesome innovation. Also, I know you already talked about lubrication, but I'd be SUPER curious to know if you've ever tried FIRE Clean. It also doesn't mist and it's been making a huge splash in the consumer industry right now. I personally love the stuff but hearing a report from your place would be really interesting. And I'll also echo everyone else by saying thank you. This is super valuable information!!! |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 1:21:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HendersonDefense]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TinyCrumb:
Amazing thread! Ron, just to echo nearly everyone else here, even if you were able to get your hands on just a couple Knights SR16s or even just a few SR15 uppers, the information would be incredibly valuable. Since you mentioned you don't stay on top of what's hot, in short, the KAC system has a redesigned bolt interface where the lugs are rounded instead of all the square edges and a few other upgrades. They claim one has never broken yet IIRC. None of us can really practically put enough rounds at enough rate down to verify the claim, so it's hard to tell. If anything, it'd just be fascinating to hear reports of how they'd perform at your establishment … mostly because if the claims are true, IMO, it's a pretty awesome innovation. Also, I know you already talked about lubrication, but I'd be SUPER curious to know if you've ever tried FIRE Clean. It also doesn't mist and it's been making a huge splash in the consumer industry right now. I personally love the stuff but hearing a report from your place would be really interesting. And I'll also echo everyone else by saying thank you. This is super valuable information!!! Phewww... I'm home! It took three hours to get from Santa Monica to Ontario (I wanted to head straight back to Vegas from Liguna Niguel) because the daughter wanted to go. She just told me... "Santa Monica really sucked Dad"
OK, we used Fire Clean on our 249's, 240's and some of the M4's on the advice of a friend about two years ago. It was relatively new and right when the range really started picking up. The armorers said that though they were pretty sure the weapons appeared to be "wet" longer, they couldn't justify me spending the money after they saw what my cost was going to be. Also, one of the armorers in particular said that if we had followed the instructions as provided they wouldn't have been that "wet" because they were much more liberal with the application than the directions called for. I am not knocking the product because I am sure it does what it's supposed to but I don't think many weapons get this much abuse on a daily basis. I will purchase a Knight's weapon system because I am sure there is a Modern Warfare, Call of Duty or Battlefield game with one that I can make another package with some new weapons we just recently got it. I know some guys frown on the whole video game thing but those kids are going to be the next generation of gun owners and they know more than most adults. They come in knowing the rate of fire, magazine capacity and caliber like they've slinging them for years. Also, I will definitely purchase a few of the KAC bolts and isolate them to certain M4's that get most of the abuse. I'll probably have one of the guys rebarrel the weapons with new PSA uppers so we zero starting point that shouldn't have any effect on the bolt's performance. V/R Ron |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 1:25:56 AM EDT
[#39]
KAC bolts are proprietary to the KAC proprietary barrel extensions.
You'll have to stick with complete KAC SR-15s or SR-16s to utilize them. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 1:33:50 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IE-EastTexas:
This is cool. I am jealous. Have y'all ever used BCM bolts or any other of their components? We have not used BCM products in our range. It's never been because of an issue of quality but more of convenience. We order direct with Daniel Defense and LMT and since we opened the doors, I haven't had the time to ever open an account with or know if they even offer terms. Loyalty it's HUGE in my book and the guys at Daniel Defense have always managed to get us our product. Just like Magtech, when some ammo/weapons ban hype hits, everybody is somehow "sold out" of everything except Daniel Defense. The manufacturers do it and the distributors do it but that's way it works. Everybody has a method of how to do things but Daniel Defense has never called us to say, "sorry, all the M4's that you ordered last year are now more valuable and we can get X amount more for them so we are going to cancel". Also, when the hype is over they don't try and send a few pallets of M4's (mfr will remain nameless) and say... "oh, those are the units that your ordered 22 months ago" because they are sitting on warehouse of inventory even AFTER they broke their own contract. To me, a deal is a deal and when we meet at SHOT Show and you shake my wife's and my hand agreeing to send product, you don't go back on your word because the market is hot. That's not only happened with the AR platform if you know what I mean 
V/R Ron |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 1:44:08 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bumblebee_Bob:
Now THIS has been a thread worth reading all six pages!
As a Colt fanboy I'm curious if you've used Colt products and how they've held up. Inferior to the DD and LMT pieces, as they're fanbois claim, or just as good? How do the Colt barrels last compared to the PSA units? Although I realize there is a cost difference here and your decisions are based on those costs. Thanks for the thread. If I'm ever in Vegas I'll have to stop by for some fun and guns! I didn't event think about this but we've had three Colt 9mm 10.5" "Commando's" on the line since day one and they see a LOT of action. The only things that those weapons have suffered a few broken/worn disconnectors, a few hammer pins and ONE firing pin... that's it. We are about to put a bunch of the Colt "LE M4" carbines on the line shortly and I am curious to see how well they hold up. V/R Ron |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 1:48:53 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HendersonDefense:
We have not used BCM products in our range. It's never been because of an issue of quality but more of convenience. We order direct with Daniel Defense and LMT and since we opened the doors, I haven't had the time to ever open an account with or know if they even offer terms. Loyalty it's HUGE in my book and the guys at Daniel Defense have always managed to get us our product. Just like Magtech, when some ammo/weapons ban hype hits, everybody is somehow "sold out" of everything except Daniel Defense. The manufacturers do it and the distributors do it but that's way it works. Everybody has a method of how to do things but Daniel Defense has never called us to say, "sorry, all the M4's that you ordered last year are now more valuable and we can get X amount more for them so we are going to cancel". Also, when the hype is over they don't try and send a few pallets of M4's (mfr will remain nameless) and say... "oh, those are the units that your ordered 22 months ago" because they are sitting on warehouse of inventory even AFTER they broke their own contract. To me, a deal is a deal and when we meet at SHOT Show and you shake my wife's and my hand agreeing to send product, you don't go back on your word because the market is hot. That's not only happened with the AR platform if you know what I mean
V/R Ron Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By IE-EastTexas:
This is cool. I am jealous. Have y'all ever used BCM bolts or any other of their components? We have not used BCM products in our range. It's never been because of an issue of quality but more of convenience. We order direct with Daniel Defense and LMT and since we opened the doors, I haven't had the time to ever open an account with or know if they even offer terms. Loyalty it's HUGE in my book and the guys at Daniel Defense have always managed to get us our product. Just like Magtech, when some ammo/weapons ban hype hits, everybody is somehow "sold out" of everything except Daniel Defense. The manufacturers do it and the distributors do it but that's way it works. Everybody has a method of how to do things but Daniel Defense has never called us to say, "sorry, all the M4's that you ordered last year are now more valuable and we can get X amount more for them so we are going to cancel". Also, when the hype is over they don't try and send a few pallets of M4's (mfr will remain nameless) and say... "oh, those are the units that your ordered 22 months ago" because they are sitting on warehouse of inventory even AFTER they broke their own contract. To me, a deal is a deal and when we meet at SHOT Show and you shake my wife's and my hand agreeing to send product, you don't go back on your word because the market is hot. That's not only happened with the AR platform if you know what I mean
V/R Ron Always enjoy hearing industry stories like this. Not only is DD arguably the top true manufacturer of "milspec" ARs, but they are also very arguably the most standup company in the entire industry as well. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 2:42:00 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Phewww... I'm home! It took three hours to get from Santa Monica to Ontario (I wanted to head straight back to Vegas from Liguna Niguel) because the daughter wanted to go. She just told me... "Santa Monica really sucked Dad"
OK, we used Fire Clean on our 249's, 240's and some of the M4's on the advice of a friend about two years ago. It was relatively new and right when the range really started picking up. The armorers said that though they were pretty sure the weapons appeared to be "wet" longer, they couldn't justify me spending the money after they saw what my cost was going to be. Also, one of the armorers in particular said that if we had followed the instructions as provided they wouldn't have been that "wet" because they were much more liberal with the application than the directions called for. I am not knocking the product because I am sure it does what it's supposed to but I don't think many weapons get this much abuse on a daily basis. I will purchase a Knight's weapon system because I am sure there is a Modern Warfare, Call of Duty or Battlefield game with one that I can make another package with some new weapons we just recently got it. I know some guys frown on the whole video game thing but those kids are going to be the next generation of gun owners and they know more than most adults. They come in knowing the rate of fire, magazine capacity and caliber like they've slinging them for years. Also, I will definitely purchase a few of the KAC bolts and isolate them to certain M4's that get most of the abuse. I'll probably have one of the guys rebarrel the weapons with new PSA uppers so we zero starting point that shouldn't have any effect on the bolt's performance. V/R Ron Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By TinyCrumb:
Amazing thread! Ron, just to echo nearly everyone else here, even if you were able to get your hands on just a couple Knights SR16s or even just a few SR15 uppers, the information would be incredibly valuable. Since you mentioned you don't stay on top of what's hot, in short, the KAC system has a redesigned bolt interface where the lugs are rounded instead of all the square edges and a few other upgrades. They claim one has never broken yet IIRC. None of us can really practically put enough rounds at enough rate down to verify the claim, so it's hard to tell. If anything, it'd just be fascinating to hear reports of how they'd perform at your establishment … mostly because if the claims are true, IMO, it's a pretty awesome innovation. Also, I know you already talked about lubrication, but I'd be SUPER curious to know if you've ever tried FIRE Clean. It also doesn't mist and it's been making a huge splash in the consumer industry right now. I personally love the stuff but hearing a report from your place would be really interesting. And I'll also echo everyone else by saying thank you. This is super valuable information!!! Phewww... I'm home! It took three hours to get from Santa Monica to Ontario (I wanted to head straight back to Vegas from Liguna Niguel) because the daughter wanted to go. She just told me... "Santa Monica really sucked Dad"
OK, we used Fire Clean on our 249's, 240's and some of the M4's on the advice of a friend about two years ago. It was relatively new and right when the range really started picking up. The armorers said that though they were pretty sure the weapons appeared to be "wet" longer, they couldn't justify me spending the money after they saw what my cost was going to be. Also, one of the armorers in particular said that if we had followed the instructions as provided they wouldn't have been that "wet" because they were much more liberal with the application than the directions called for. I am not knocking the product because I am sure it does what it's supposed to but I don't think many weapons get this much abuse on a daily basis. I will purchase a Knight's weapon system because I am sure there is a Modern Warfare, Call of Duty or Battlefield game with one that I can make another package with some new weapons we just recently got it. I know some guys frown on the whole video game thing but those kids are going to be the next generation of gun owners and they know more than most adults. They come in knowing the rate of fire, magazine capacity and caliber like they've slinging them for years. Also, I will definitely purchase a few of the KAC bolts and isolate them to certain M4's that get most of the abuse. I'll probably have one of the guys rebarrel the weapons with new PSA uppers so we zero starting point that shouldn't have any effect on the bolt's performance. V/R Ron Thanks for the response! One thing I forgot to mention about the Knights bolt is that it requires a special receiver extension that's mated to it, so they're not interchangeable with standard mil-spec barrels, etc… It really is their own whole proprietary system. That's why you'd have to do at minimum the full upper (since you can't buy their barrels alone) or just a couple full guns (SR-16s). That said, yes, I believe KAC has gotten a lot of coverage within pop culture. The amount of .mil contracts they get alone makes them one of the "cool" companies amongst the kids and even in the airsoft world their models are amongst the most copied. Even a lot of the more modern tricked out ARs in the military these days still sport a lot of KAC gear from rails to sights. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 7:55:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
[#44]
You can use the LMT enhanced bolt's without some proprietary barrel extension.
 Since you already have an account with LMT, should be an easy order to make. You don't need the entire enhanced BCG, just the enhanced bolt, which will drop in a normal carrier and can be used with a normal barrel extension.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 9:25:28 AM EDT
[#45]
Ron, in your experience, what is it that fails or wears out with piston guns? (I'm repeating my earlier question because I think it got lost in the crowd.)
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VA, USA
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Posted: 7/1/2015 9:27:30 AM EDT
[#46]
This thread is awesome.
Is there a thread like this for pistols? I remember asking a rental range in Phoenix, AZ what guns they have that don't break. They told me Glocks didn't break except you had to put on a steel front sight. Everything else broke eventually. This was in the late 80's so things probably are different now. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 9:40:02 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ken_in_Va:
This thread is awesome. Is there a thread like this for pistols? Yep. The link is even on this page
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/1/2015 9:41:22 AM EDT
[#48]
Very interesting. Thanks for the reply!
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Posted: 7/1/2015 9:53:18 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
KAC bolts are proprietary to the KAC proprietary barrel extensions. You'll have to stick with complete KAC SR-15s or SR-16s to utilize them. This is an important note. If you use a KAC round lug bolt in a standard M4 barrel extension you will break it. Complete upper is the only way to go if you want to test this system. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 10:16:41 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: You can use the LMT enhanced bolt's without some proprietary barrel extension. Since you already have an account with LMT, should be an easy order to make. You don't need the entire enhanced BCG, just the enhanced bolt, which will drop in a normal carrier and can be used with a normal barrel extension. I was going to suggest this. I believe they use Aeromet for the steel and they are supposed to be extremely strong. I would love to see some get thrown into the fire on your range. |
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