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Posted: 5/11/2015 2:27:36 AM EDT
[#1]
EXTENSIVE EDIT TO THE OP TO CLARIFY AND ADD VISUAL AIDS - PLEASE GO BACK AND RE-READ
~Augee |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2015 3:19:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: FAB-10_Guy]
[#2]
Quote HistoryWell done!!! That is particularly nice shooting at 100yds, especially in that wind. A few questions though: 1. I didn't see a barrier that you were shooting from. Was it just not showing up on the video (and there was a stake in the ground marking it that didn't show up on the video)? 2. How many times are we supposed to shoot from the prone position? If I read the instructions correctly, the first shots must be prone, and the final ones prone. How about the others? Kneeling from the barricade is OK, but is it required? 3. Minimum number of shots from each position? What's to prevent someone from shooting 3 from prone at 100yd, then 1 shot from all the rest of the bounding positions until they get to 5yd, then do a mag dump? 4. When you go prone the first time at 100yd, does that give you 5sec of DT before the ET starts to kick in (assuming you don't start shooting before then)? The instructions seem to make it out that you have 7 seconds at the first engagement to go prone, make your shots AND get to the next shooting position. Thanks for the replies. There is still more of this thread to read at the time of this response, so maybe some of my questions have already been answered. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/11/2015 6:05:46 AM EDT
[#3]
One point on scoring - technically, the rules do not prohibit the shooter from unloading several mags from his pistol one yard away from the target, yes? If so, that may need to be addressed.
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Posted: 5/11/2015 10:00:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: thornejc]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Krater:
One point on scoring - technically, the rules do not prohibit the shooter from unloading several mags from his pistol one yard away from the target, yes? If so, that may need to be addressed. Agreed... not much is stopping me from putting a 33rnd mag in my Glock and unloading into the target from 1 foot away... which would 1) be pretty lame and 2) make the target basically unreadable when it comes to counting hits. Also, do we have to drop into the prone once we get past that 25 yard mark or can we shoot as we move toward the target, hit the 5 yard mark, and turn and run back to the 100y line? |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 11:38:11 AM EDT
[#5]
Reload BEFORE you leave "cover."
Reloading while you are bounding to another piece of cover is bad juju. Resist the urge to save time and do the right thing. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 1:02:07 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Krater: One point on scoring - technically, the rules do not prohibit the shooter from unloading several mags from his pistol one yard away from the target, yes? If so, that may need to be addressed. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 2:10:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shade_1313:
Unless I have a stoppage, going to a pistol is dumb, so if I even make the run with one, it stays holstered barring any problems with the long gun. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shade_1313:
Originally Posted By Krater:
One point on scoring - technically, the rules do not prohibit the shooter from unloading several mags from his pistol one yard away from the target, yes? If so, that may need to be addressed. That's the issue... you can pretty quickly and easily get -15pts for something that is kinda dumb. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 3:15:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: EVR]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Augee:
I am working on re-vamping the original post to make things a little bit clearer. I assure you - I had no idea the OP was going to end up being as long as it was until I finished writing it. 
To clarify, though, since it's come up a couple of times - This is not a clone exclusive event any longer - the thread was inspired by military clones, and initially geared towards it - but ANYONE can participate. There will be two major categories - Military Rifles and Replicas (clones), and Unlimited (any build you want to use). Military Rifles and Replicas can be ANY military rifle from any era used by any country. ~Augee Bravo to Augee for setting up a Challenge!! Concept is GREAT. Now he gets to learn a few things about setting up shooting Challenges on ARFCOM!!! HAHA! Yeah, it is way more difficult to do than it sounds and always there is creative and constructive criticism that follows...and some totally worthless smack... Augee, I think you will get lots of "I'm in" and "Tagged for later" stuff like that but don't take it personally if the posters never return. Some will. I still don't get all the rules, but do think a pistol should be eliminated, or the scoring for it revamped as per the recommendations of the others. Good input there. Also, if you can make things simple, you will get more involvement. The rules might be a little complicated. I still can't figure them out as the discussion of tactical doctrine sort of overshadowed the actual rules of the Challenge at least for my numbnuts mental capacity. The tactical stuff is great but is sort of offtopic for the forum section and might get in the way of spelling out the actual rules which need to be clear for all. You've got the basics down and it looks like you'll have the thing lined out pretty quick. "KISS" applies. Do what you can to lay it all out and I think some guys will get on board. The videos will be interesting. Some questions; 1} Can one camera be set up at the 100 yard line and just turned on and left? Or is some other more sophisticated setup required? 2} If this thing is scored, shouldn't firing points be set up so a specific number of shots are fired at each range thus standardizing the COF some? Or did I miss that somehow? 3} What is the target size? Is there any specific aiming point you want to use and score or are you only interested in "hits"? 4} You say the cof is not limited to AR's. How will that sit with the AR section site Moderators? What if, say, I want to shoot it wih a Mosin-Nagant and a whole bunch of clips or whatever, will they allow posting of that and discussion, too? I set my SHTF Challenge in the AR section and then moved it to GD in order to allow other rifles. PS; Special thanks to wormy for his excellent video. Hollywood awaits you man! Nice job and a good kickoff. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 5:26:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Augee;
An idea. How about shooting it yourself and posting a video of how it is supposed to be done? |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2015 5:40:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Looks like a good drill that reinforces some valuable skills. It is similar to Defoor's carbine drill, which I sometimes run, but is more of an ass kicker! I will try it out next time I'm on a range where the situation allows it.
I organize a Run 'n Gun competition, and have had some "bounding" type stages in it before. This gives me some ideas for a possible future stage. www.okrunngun.com |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2015 5:48:33 PM EDT
[#11]
If you still need a shirt for the prize pool let me know.
Also I'd like to take part but I've got to go to my nearest BLM to take part - maybe in a few days. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2015 5:52:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AR-4C]
[#12]
I'm also interested in this, but have some questions and inputs. For the sake of realism, what about individuals within the "virtual squad" that are injured (but not wounded) when fire is taken? This is what I have to work with. I shattered my left knee last August due to a bone disease; 5 screws in my left knee and the femur was rodded.
What I thought, when the person bounds to the target from the starting point; after touching the target, they rebound 25 yards, take cover behind simulated barrier, load weapon, and return fire. Then get up, rebound another 3-5 seconds, and go prone. Continue this progression until they reach the starting point. Making sure to engage target at least once within 100-75 yard zone, 75-50 yard zone, 50-25 yard zone, and 25-0 yard zone. Once reaching the starting point, go prone, return fire, then bound back towards the target for 3-5 seconds to begin repelling the threat, and go prone. Bound another 3-5 seconds, and go prone. Bound another 3-5 seconds, and go prone. Continue this progression until reaching simulated barrier, take cover, and return fire. Bound another 3-5 seconds and go prone or reach 5 yards from target. Making sure to engage target at least once within 100-75 yard zone, 75-50 yard zone, 50-25 yard zone, and 25-0 yard zone. Time stops once reaching 5 yards from target when bounding back to repel threat. 
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Posted: 5/11/2015 10:35:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Augee;
Why not standardize it and make it simple and scoreable? If all you want is "hits", use an 8 1/2 inch sheet of copy paper for a target. Say, start with three magazines loaded with 5, 10 and 15 shots. Set up barrier at 25. Start at target; Run to 100 go prone/shoot 8 shots Run to 75 go prone/shoot 7 shots Run to 50 standing/shoot 7 shots Run to 25 kneeling behind barrier/shoot 8 shots {Must shoot from side of barrier}. Requirement to count shots adds a stress factor. Score for time and hits. Video from target or from 100 yard shooting position. Simple. Thoughts? |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 10:44:56 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EVR: Augee; Why not standardize it and make it simple and scoreable? If all you want is "hits", use an 8 1/2 inch sheet of copy paper for a target. Say, start with three magazines loaded with 5, 10 and 15 shots. Set up barrier at 25. Start at target; Run to 100 go prone/shoot 8 shots Run to 75 go prone/shoot 7 shots Run to 50 standing/shoot 7 shots Run to 25 kneeling behind barrier/shoot 8 shots {Must shoot from side of barrier}. Requirement to count shots adds a stress factor. Score for time and hits. Video from target or from 100 yard shooting position. Simple. Thoughts? |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 10:55:25 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shade_1313:
Part of what Augee wants to specifically do is incorporate that you only have a small window of time to make those bounding moves, the "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down" mnemonic representing how long you've got before the defender zeros in on you as you move and lights you up. Sure, some folks might be able to jump up, cover 25 yards, and hit the deck again in 3-5 seconds time, but for (probably) most, you'd be exposing yourself for a likely fatal amount of time as you cover that 25 yards. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shade_1313:
Originally Posted By EVR:
Augee; Why not standardize it and make it simple and scoreable? If all you want is "hits", use an 8 1/2 inch sheet of copy paper for a target. Say, start with three magazines loaded with 5, 10 and 15 shots. Set up barrier at 25. Start at target; Run to 100 go prone/shoot 8 shots Run to 75 go prone/shoot 7 shots Run to 50 standing/shoot 7 shots Run to 25 kneeling behind barrier/shoot 8 shots {Must shoot from side of barrier}. Requirement to count shots adds a stress factor. Score for time and hits. Video from target or from 100 yard shooting position. Simple. Thoughts? So how is he going to make it a cof that is even remotely comparable between shooters on a forum who are using different range setups and then trying to score it? What he is trying to do is fine, but there are limitations to what guys can {read, WILL} do to post, or...prediction...this thing will go absolutely nowhere. Make it simple and you'll get some interesting videos. Fill it up with tactical discussion and you'll get..............tactical discussion. And arguments over what was done or not done right. And bitching. And arguments... I'm on your and his side, I'm just trying to be practical and realistic, having set one of these crazy things up myself, one that was even simpler and STILL got a ton of rule challenges and BS tossed at me thru the process. Watch the MOA Challenge and you see it there, too. Unless Augee is willing to travel around the country setting guys' ranges up and videoing them, he's best off makin' it simple. Real simple. No, it won't be EXACTLY what he wants, but this is...........ARFCOM. Let's not forget that. 
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Posted: 5/11/2015 11:04:20 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EVR: So how is he going to make it a cof that is even remotely comparable between shooters on a forum who are using different range setups and then trying to score it? What he is trying to do is fine, but there are limitations to what guys can {read, WILL} do to post, or...prediction...this thing will go absolutely nowhere. Make it simple and you'll get some interesting videos. Fill it up with tactical discussion and you'll get..............tactical discussion. And arguments over what was done or not done right. And bitching. And arguments... I'm on your and his side, I'm just trying to be practical and realistic, having set one of these crazy things up myself, one that was even simpler and STILL got a ton of rule challenges and BS tossed at me thru the process. Watch the MOA Challenge and you see it there, too. Unless Augee is willing to travel around the country setting guys' ranges up and videoing them, he's best off makin' it simple. Real simple. No, it won't be EXACTLY what he wants, but this is...........ARFCOM. Let's not forget that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EVR: Originally Posted By shade_1313: Part of what Augee wants to specifically do is incorporate that you only have a small window of time to make those bounding moves, the "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down" mnemonic representing how long you've got before the defender zeros in on you as you move and lights you up. Sure, some folks might be able to jump up, cover 25 yards, and hit the deck again in 3-5 seconds time, but for (probably) most, you'd be exposing yourself for a likely fatal amount of time as you cover that 25 yards. So how is he going to make it a cof that is even remotely comparable between shooters on a forum who are using different range setups and then trying to score it? What he is trying to do is fine, but there are limitations to what guys can {read, WILL} do to post, or...prediction...this thing will go absolutely nowhere. Make it simple and you'll get some interesting videos. Fill it up with tactical discussion and you'll get..............tactical discussion. And arguments over what was done or not done right. And bitching. And arguments... I'm on your and his side, I'm just trying to be practical and realistic, having set one of these crazy things up myself, one that was even simpler and STILL got a ton of rule challenges and BS tossed at me thru the process. Watch the MOA Challenge and you see it there, too. Unless Augee is willing to travel around the country setting guys' ranges up and videoing them, he's best off makin' it simple. Real simple. No, it won't be EXACTLY what he wants, but this is...........ARFCOM. Let's not forget that. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 11:09:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: EVR]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shade_1313:
Well, since there's no way in hell I'll come close to "winning", and I'll be doing it for giggles and to see if I can (provided I can find somewhere to do the blamed thing), I'll do it the hard way, aka, Augee's way.
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shade_1313:
Originally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By shade_1313:
Part of what Augee wants to specifically do is incorporate that you only have a small window of time to make those bounding moves, the "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down" mnemonic representing how long you've got before the defender zeros in on you as you move and lights you up. Sure, some folks might be able to jump up, cover 25 yards, and hit the deck again in 3-5 seconds time, but for (probably) most, you'd be exposing yourself for a likely fatal amount of time as you cover that 25 yards. So how is he going to make it a cof that is even remotely comparable between shooters on a forum who are using different range setups and then trying to score it? What he is trying to do is fine, but there are limitations to what guys can {read, WILL} do to post, or...prediction...this thing will go absolutely nowhere. Make it simple and you'll get some interesting videos. Fill it up with tactical discussion and you'll get..............tactical discussion. And arguments over what was done or not done right. And bitching. And arguments... I'm on your and his side, I'm just trying to be practical and realistic, having set one of these crazy things up myself, one that was even simpler and STILL got a ton of rule challenges and BS tossed at me thru the process. Watch the MOA Challenge and you see it there, too. Unless Augee is willing to travel around the country setting guys' ranges up and videoing them, he's best off makin' it simple. Real simple. No, it won't be EXACTLY what he wants, but this is...........ARFCOM. Let's not forget that.
How is what he is suggesting "harder"? Actually, what I suggested is harder, I think {smaller target} tho the target or the details are unimportant. What is important is that the number of shots fired at each station are the same so the target is engaged at each range identically for all. Basically, I'm suggesting he simply uses a standardized number of shooting positions, period. So everybody does it the same, instead of guys doeing it this way or that. The running and distances and all could be identical to what his setup is. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 11:11:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: shade_1313]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EVR: How is what he is suggesting "harder"? Basically, I'm suggesting he simply uses a standardized number of shooting positions, period. So everybody does it the same, instead of guys doeing it this way or that. The running and distances and all could be identical to what his setup is. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EVR: Originally Posted By shade_1313: Originally Posted By EVR: Originally Posted By shade_1313: Part of what Augee wants to specifically do is incorporate that you only have a small window of time to make those bounding moves, the "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down" mnemonic representing how long you've got before the defender zeros in on you as you move and lights you up. Sure, some folks might be able to jump up, cover 25 yards, and hit the deck again in 3-5 seconds time, but for (probably) most, you'd be exposing yourself for a likely fatal amount of time as you cover that 25 yards. So how is he going to make it a cof that is even remotely comparable between shooters on a forum who are using different range setups and then trying to score it? What he is trying to do is fine, but there are limitations to what guys can {read, WILL} do to post, or...prediction...this thing will go absolutely nowhere. Make it simple and you'll get some interesting videos. Fill it up with tactical discussion and you'll get..............tactical discussion. And arguments over what was done or not done right. And bitching. And arguments... I'm on your and his side, I'm just trying to be practical and realistic, having set one of these crazy things up myself, one that was even simpler and STILL got a ton of rule challenges and BS tossed at me thru the process. Watch the MOA Challenge and you see it there, too. Unless Augee is willing to travel around the country setting guys' ranges up and videoing them, he's best off makin' it simple. Real simple. No, it won't be EXACTLY what he wants, but this is...........ARFCOM. Let's not forget that. How is what he is suggesting "harder"? Basically, I'm suggesting he simply uses a standardized number of shooting positions, period. So everybody does it the same, instead of guys doeing it this way or that. The running and distances and all could be identical to what his setup is. I get what you're saying, but to a certain extent, that's just making it a variation on one of Kyle Defoor's tests. ETA: you edited. With Augee's setup, you also end up playing a mental game where you have to juggle how many rounds to shoot, and where. You HAVE to shoot a minimum at each "increment", plus at the end...but you end up with 10 extra rounds to fit in somewhere, so you have to figure out where you want to shoot those extra, while not overdoing it and coming up short at the end, and also not sticking yourself with an excessive number of exhausted shots to take at 100, AND you have to manage magazines loaded with numbers of rounds that don't necessarily break down easily. Mental game + the exhaustion of sprinting and burpeeing your way down the field seems harder to me. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 11:14:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thornejc]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EVR:
So how is he going to make it a cof that is even remotely comparable between shooters on a forum who are using different range setups and then trying to score it? What he is trying to do is fine, but there are limitations to what guys can {read, WILL} do to post, or...prediction...this thing will go absolutely nowhere. Make it simple and you'll get some interesting videos. Fill it up with tactical discussion and you'll get..............tactical discussion. And arguments over what was done or not done right. And bitching. And arguments... I'm on your and his side, I'm just trying to be practical and realistic, having set one of these crazy things up myself, one that was even simpler and STILL got a ton of rule challenges and BS tossed at me thru the process. Watch the MOA Challenge and you see it there, too. Unless Augee is willing to travel around the country setting guys' ranges up and videoing them, he's best off makin' it simple. Real simple. No, it won't be EXACTLY what he wants, but this is...........ARFCOM. Let's not forget that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By shade_1313:
Originally Posted By EVR:
Augee; Why not standardize it and make it simple and scoreable? If all you want is "hits", use an 8 1/2 inch sheet of copy paper for a target. Say, start with three magazines loaded with 5, 10 and 15 shots. Set up barrier at 25. Start at target; Run to 100 go prone/shoot 8 shots Run to 75 go prone/shoot 7 shots Run to 50 standing/shoot 7 shots Run to 25 kneeling behind barrier/shoot 8 shots {Must shoot from side of barrier}. Requirement to count shots adds a stress factor. Score for time and hits. Video from target or from 100 yard shooting position. Simple. Thoughts? So how is he going to make it a cof that is even remotely comparable between shooters on a forum who are using different range setups and then trying to score it? What he is trying to do is fine, but there are limitations to what guys can {read, WILL} do to post, or...prediction...this thing will go absolutely nowhere. Make it simple and you'll get some interesting videos. Fill it up with tactical discussion and you'll get..............tactical discussion. And arguments over what was done or not done right. And bitching. And arguments... I'm on your and his side, I'm just trying to be practical and realistic, having set one of these crazy things up myself, one that was even simpler and STILL got a ton of rule challenges and BS tossed at me thru the process. Watch the MOA Challenge and you see it there, too. Unless Augee is willing to travel around the country setting guys' ranges up and videoing them, he's best off makin' it simple. Real simple. No, it won't be EXACTLY what he wants, but this is...........ARFCOM. Let's not forget that. I actually like the fact that you have some flexibility when it comes to how you run the course. Making it so standardized is kinda boring. I like how it is structured already other than the pistol free for all that has the potential to get out of control IMO but i really don't care bc it is just intended to be fun anyways so the scoring is really secondary so if you get a lower score because YOU chose to run the course in a more difficult manner, that is on you.. Lets not dumb it down for people who can't count shots, judge time and distance, or figure out a half way decent strategy to but 30 rounds on a target. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 11:15:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: America]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shade_1313:
A lot more up and down. Simple, but true...and exhausting...especially if I do it all geared up. I get what you're saying, but to a certain extent, that's just making it a variation on one of Kyle Defoor's tests. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shade_1313:
Originally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By shade_1313:
Originally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By shade_1313:
Part of what Augee wants to specifically do is incorporate that you only have a small window of time to make those bounding moves, the "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down" mnemonic representing how long you've got before the defender zeros in on you as you move and lights you up. Sure, some folks might be able to jump up, cover 25 yards, and hit the deck again in 3-5 seconds time, but for (probably) most, you'd be exposing yourself for a likely fatal amount of time as you cover that 25 yards. So how is he going to make it a cof that is even remotely comparable between shooters on a forum who are using different range setups and then trying to score it? What he is trying to do is fine, but there are limitations to what guys can {read, WILL} do to post, or...prediction...this thing will go absolutely nowhere. Make it simple and you'll get some interesting videos. Fill it up with tactical discussion and you'll get..............tactical discussion. And arguments over what was done or not done right. And bitching. And arguments... I'm on your and his side, I'm just trying to be practical and realistic, having set one of these crazy things up myself, one that was even simpler and STILL got a ton of rule challenges and BS tossed at me thru the process. Watch the MOA Challenge and you see it there, too. Unless Augee is willing to travel around the country setting guys' ranges up and videoing them, he's best off makin' it simple. Real simple. No, it won't be EXACTLY what he wants, but this is...........ARFCOM. Let's not forget that.
How is what he is suggesting "harder"? Basically, I'm suggesting he simply uses a standardized number of shooting positions, period. So everybody does it the same, instead of guys doeing it this way or that. The running and distances and all could be identical to what his setup is. I get what you're saying, but to a certain extent, that's just making it a variation on one of Kyle Defoor's tests. Defoors drill requires much longer shooting times. 
here for example when he reaches 100 yards it takes 14 seconds from him appearing to have lined his rifle up on the target until the second shot is fired. Then he ends up not passing the drill anyway. Myself I agree with EVR that what he is proposing will be much simpler. I will try and run it tomorrow. My legs are feeling pretty sore tonight so this should be really fun. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 11:17:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: EVR]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shade_1313:
A lot more up and down. Simple, but true...and exhausting...especially if I do it all geared up. I get what you're saying, but to a certain extent, that's just making it a variation on one of Kyle Defoor's tests. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shade_1313:
Originally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By shade_1313:
Originally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By shade_1313:
Part of what Augee wants to specifically do is incorporate that you only have a small window of time to make those bounding moves, the "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down" mnemonic representing how long you've got before the defender zeros in on you as you move and lights you up. Sure, some folks might be able to jump up, cover 25 yards, and hit the deck again in 3-5 seconds time, but for (probably) most, you'd be exposing yourself for a likely fatal amount of time as you cover that 25 yards. So how is he going to make it a cof that is even remotely comparable between shooters on a forum who are using different range setups and then trying to score it? What he is trying to do is fine, but there are limitations to what guys can {read, WILL} do to post, or...prediction...this thing will go absolutely nowhere. Make it simple and you'll get some interesting videos. Fill it up with tactical discussion and you'll get..............tactical discussion. And arguments over what was done or not done right. And bitching. And arguments... I'm on your and his side, I'm just trying to be practical and realistic, having set one of these crazy things up myself, one that was even simpler and STILL got a ton of rule challenges and BS tossed at me thru the process. Watch the MOA Challenge and you see it there, too. Unless Augee is willing to travel around the country setting guys' ranges up and videoing them, he's best off makin' it simple. Real simple. No, it won't be EXACTLY what he wants, but this is...........ARFCOM. Let's not forget that.
How is what he is suggesting "harder"? Basically, I'm suggesting he simply uses a standardized number of shooting positions, period. So everybody does it the same, instead of guys doeing it this way or that. The running and distances and all could be identical to what his setup is. I get what you're saying, but to a certain extent, that's just making it a variation on one of Kyle Defoor's tests. There is no way you can have a meaningful scoring if he allows a wide spread in up/down. Set it up with ten pushups between shot strings if you want or whatever else, but standardize it or you might as well just scrap the scoring end. Even without scoring it would be interesting, but w/ a standardized scoring may uncover some interesting nuances in rifle types, setups and sights, etc. Which in a tech forum would seem to have some value, I think. {?} Or maybe Augee can shoot it and video himself and then everybody else can pattern off that. Heck, I'll shoot anything. I was one of the maybe 5 or six {or fewer???} that shot Molon's grapefruit!
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MT, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2015 1:58:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: FAB-10_Guy]
[#22]
I don't know, man. I understand what Augee is trying to do here (at least I think I do). You have to use your good judgment balancing shooting and time exposed. Although I've never been on a two-way range, I can imagine it is pretty fluid, and you have to make split-second decisions. It is not "STANDARDIZED". And here lies the rub. How do you standardize something that is fluid and unpredictable? To make it even close to fair, the scoring ends up being pretty complex. Apart from the pistol mag dump at 5yd, I think he has done a reasonable job allowing for variability in the approach the this COF.
Personally, I would add minimum round requirements at each engagement point (2 or 3 rounds from each position, minimum--more is OK as long as you keep enough rounds to complete the COF). I would limit pistol to only if your mag runs dry during an engagement point, and still penalize for pistol misses, as they are still lead going down range that doesn't find its intended target and has the potential for collateral damage. Pistol points would still be worth only half of rifle points. Again, this is for fun (and bragging rights  ). So what does it really matter if you don't get it right, or do it a bit differently? If the score matters to you, then follow the rules laid out. I think Augee did a pretty good job of justifying his rationale behind why he made them the way he did. I'm certainly looking forward to giving it a try when I get some time off.
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Posted: 5/12/2015 2:19:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Augee]
[#23]
Been out and about all day, and didn't get to check back on ARFCOM until late tonight, and I got diverted a couple more times before getting to tackling all the realistic concerns raised by the posts here!
First of all - I think by now, I've more or less firmly concluded that when this challenge is "finalized" - I will start a new thread that's the actual challenge. Any videos posted while we're still in the "discussion" and "refinement" stage (as we are in now) will be imported as needed into the new thread to further clarify things. This is officially the "discussion" thread. Simplest thing first - I think my access to the property that I thought I was going to be able to shoot on this week is not going to come through - so even I will not be able to do a "true" demonstration run this week... unless someone in the CHAS area wants to volunteer...
However - I do have access to a range that has about 80 yards that I should be able to pull something that's at least suitable for demonstration purposes. But I DO plan to have a good video demonstration before the challenge officially goes "live." |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 2:46:10 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thornejc:
Agreed... not much is stopping me from putting a 33rnd mag in my Glock and unloading into the target from 1 foot away... which would 1) be pretty lame and 2) make the target basically unreadable when it comes to counting hits. Also, do we have to drop into the prone once we get past that 25 yard mark or can we shoot as we move toward the target, hit the 5 yard mark, and turn and run back to the 100y line? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thornejc:
Originally Posted By Krater:
One point on scoring - technically, the rules do not prohibit the shooter from unloading several mags from his pistol one yard away from the target, yes? If so, that may need to be addressed. Agreed... not much is stopping me from putting a 33rnd mag in my Glock and unloading into the target from 1 foot away... which would 1) be pretty lame and 2) make the target basically unreadable when it comes to counting hits. Also, do we have to drop into the prone once we get past that 25 yard mark or can we shoot as we move toward the target, hit the 5 yard mark, and turn and run back to the 100y line? This is a very good point, and luckily, I think it's an easy fix. To answer thornejc first - You never "need" to drop into the prone - but you are risking very heavy Exposure Time penalties for going over the allotted 7 seconds. It is on you to decide whether you can cover 20 yards while moving and engaging the target and scoring good hits (remember, misses are stiff penalties as well) in 7 seconds, after sprinting 200 yards, and doing 3-5 second bounds for 75 yards. To answer Krater and the general issue that was raised - I did some reviewing of my own split times and some videos - BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front) - a simple adjustment to the timing rules is all that will be needed. Previously, I said Exposure Time stops as soon as you hit 5 yards. The timing will be adjusted so that your Exposure Time does not stop until you turn around and begin sprinting back to the Starting Line. Moreover, you may not terminate your final bound past 5 yards, nor may you bound again beyond 5 yards - though you may expose yourself and close with the target within 5 yards. Reviewing a couple of YouTube videos - Jerry Miculek was able to put 26 rounds on steel from about 7 yards with a 2011 double stack Race Gun from a single magazine. This took him 3.7 seconds. Which means he would have earned 13 points for his shooting score. Another video of... not Jerry Miculek had a guy "rapid firing" a Glock 19 with a 30 round magazine at a target at about 10 yards. This took him over 10 seconds. "Rounding" to 3 rounds per second, as far as his video indicated - he did not put all the rounds within the target size for this challenge - but even if he had - he would have earned 15 points for his shooting score. Remember - pistol hits are worth only 1/2 point. So - assuming you "game" the rules as best you can, and wait for the last possible second/distance and choose to get right to the 5 yard line and engage with your pistol, without engaging with your rifle at all (a poor decision, IMHO, because pistol hits only earn 1/2 point, while rifle rounds earn a full point) - and that your Exposure Time is ADDED to your total elapsed time for your final time total. If you shoot like Jerry Miculek... well damn. Take your 3.7 seconds of exposure time, and earn your 13 points. You deserve them... for being Jerry Miculek. If you shoot like Glock 19 guy - you stand up at 5 yards with your 3 round magazine - and you unleash 3 rounds per second into the target, holding them all within the target, before turning to run back to the Starting Line for the counter-attack, ending your Exposure Time. You earned 15 points for hitting the target - but it took you 10 seconds and ate up your Exposure Time - and you went 3 seconds over - meaning you incurred a 30 second penalty for exposure time, doubling your loss of anything you gained by shooting your pistol. Now - more "reasonably" - say you're using a standard pistol magazine of 15 rounds, shooting at the same speed - and put 15 rounds in 5 seconds on the target - you earned 7.5 points - but you also cost yourself 5 seconds, nearly cancelling out anything you gained by engaging with the pistol. Start missing, and while you're not losing points, per se - you're losing Exposure Time for no gain at all. Plus, you're taking a huge risk that, once again - after sprinting 200 yards, and doing 3-5 second bounds for 95 yards - that you're not going to over 7 seconds before turning around - after which you incur a 1 second penalty per 1/10th of a second. Again - it's a thinking and planning exercise - is the time risk worth the comparatively paltry gains for shooting the pistol. If you can shoot like Jerry after all that - it probably is, and you probably deserve the extra edge. If not... I would guess it's probably not. ~Augee |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 3:02:21 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-4C:
I'm also interested in this, but have some questions and inputs. For the sake of realism, what about individuals within the "virtual squad" that are injured (but not wounded) when fire is taken? This is what I have to work with. I shattered my left knee last August due to a bone disease; 5 screws in my left knee and the femur was rodded. What I thought, when the person bounds to the target from the starting point; after touching the target, they rebound 25 yards, take cover behind simulated barrier, load weapon, and return fire. Then get up, rebound another 3-5 seconds, and go prone. Continue this progression until they reach the starting point. Making sure to engage target at least once within 100-75 yard zone, 75-50 yard zone, 50-25 yard zone, and 25-0 yard zone. Once reaching the starting point, go prone, return fire, then bound back towards the target for 3-5 seconds to begin repelling the threat, and go prone. Bound another 3-5 seconds, and go prone. Bound another 3-5 seconds, and go prone. Continue this progression until reaching simulated barrier, take cover, and return fire. Bound another 3-5 seconds and go prone or reach 5 yards from target. Making sure to engage target at least once within 100-75 yard zone, 75-50 yard zone, 50-25 yard zone, and 25-0 yard zone. Time stops once reaching 5 yards from target when bounding back to repel threat. http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/AVIDavid1982/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zps60a1e2d4.jpg I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're saying, but it sounds like you want to double the duration of the challenge, but not sprint?
Definitely understand physical injury, I've got seven screws and a plate in my arm as well! I'm not sure what you mean by injured but not wounded - but in the simplest sense, at least in a linear "fight" like this - if you're injured/wounded on contact, you support as best you're able - but for all intents and purposes - everyone else continues the assault, and you get attended to after the enemy is destroyed and the area secured. Certainly, I want as many people to participate in this as possible - so I will say this - If you're physically unable to sprint - you can still jog, or even walk back and forth from the target as needed. Your time may, in fact, be non-competitive - but it would still be a worthwhile (I think) exercise to run - the point is that you're moving as fast as you can move. If that happens to be a slow range walk - you're still stressing yourself and meeting the intent within your physical limitations - possibly more than a young buck with all his/her parts intact who is running. The sprinting portions are non-Exposure Time, so not scored against. That being said - to cover ground using 3-5 second rushes - you are, without a doubt, sprinting for short durations from position to position - if you're not - it's going to be one long movement down range, because you're only going to cover a couple of yards each bound - remember, getting down and getting up take a lot of energy, too - and the more times you have to do it, the more tired you're going to get - the running is the easy part of this challenge. ~Augee |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2015 3:09:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: FAB-10_Guy]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Augee:
This is a very good point, and luckily, I think it's an easy fix. To answer thornejc first - You never "need" to drop into the prone - but you are risking very heavy Exposure Time penalties for going over the allotted 7 seconds. It is on you to decide whether you can cover 20 yards while moving and engaging the target and scoring good hits (remember, misses are stiff penalties as well) in 7 seconds, after sprinting 200 yards, and doing 3-5 second bounds for 75 yards. To answer Krater and the general issue that was raised - I did some reviewing of my own split times and some videos - BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front) - a simple adjustment to the timing rules is all that will be needed. Previously, I said Exposure Time stops as soon as you hit 5 yards. The timing will be adjusted so that your Exposure Time does not stop until you turn around and begin sprinting back to the Starting Line. Moreover, you may not terminate your final bound past 5 yards, nor may you bound again beyond 5 yards - though you may expose yourself and close with the target within 5 yards. Reviewing a couple of YouTube videos - Jerry Miculek was able to put 26 rounds on steel from about 7 yards with a 2011 double stack Race Gun from a single magazine. This took him 3.7 seconds. Which means he would have earned 13 points for his shooting score. Another video of... not Jerry Miculek had a guy "rapid firing" a Glock 19 with a 30 round magazine at a target at about 10 yards. This took him over 10 seconds. "Rounding" to 3 rounds per second, as far as his video indicated - he did not put all the rounds within the target size for this challenge - but even if he had - he would have earned 15 points for his shooting score. Remember - pistol hits are worth only 1/2 point. So - assuming you "game" the rules as best you can, and wait for the last possible second/distance and choose to get right to the 5 yard line and engage with your pistol, without engaging with your rifle at all (a poor decision, IMHO, because pistol hits only earn 1/2 point, while rifle rounds earn a full point) - and that your Exposure Time is ADDED to your total elapsed time for your final time total. If you shoot like Jerry Miculek... well damn. Take your 3.7 seconds of exposure time, and earn your 13 points. You deserve them... for being Jerry Miculek. If you shoot like Glock 19 guy - you stand up at 5 yards with your 3 round magazine - and you unleash 3 rounds per second into the target, holding them all within the target, before turning to run back to the Starting Line for the counter-attack, ending your Exposure Time. You earned 15 points for hitting the target - but it took you 10 seconds and ate up your Exposure Time - and you went 3 seconds over - meaning you incurred a 30 second penalty for exposure time, doubling your loss of anything you gained by shooting your pistol. Now - more "reasonably" - say you're using a standard pistol magazine of 15 rounds, shooting at the same speed - and put 15 rounds in 5 seconds on the target - you earned 7.5 points - but you also cost yourself 5 seconds, nearly cancelling out anything you gained by engaging with the pistol. Start missing, and while you're not losing points, per se - you're losing Exposure Time for no gain at all. Plus, you're taking a huge risk that, once again - after sprinting 200 yards, and doing 3-5 second bounds for 95 yards - that you're not going to over 7 seconds before turning around - after which you incur a 1 second penalty per 1/10th of a second. Again - it's a thinking and planning exercise - is the time risk worth the comparatively paltry gains for shooting the pistol. If you can shoot like Jerry after all that - it probably is, and you probably deserve the extra edge. If not... I would guess it's probably not. ~Augee Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By thornejc:
Originally Posted By Krater:
One point on scoring - technically, the rules do not prohibit the shooter from unloading several mags from his pistol one yard away from the target, yes? If so, that may need to be addressed. Agreed... not much is stopping me from putting a 33rnd mag in my Glock and unloading into the target from 1 foot away... which would 1) be pretty lame and 2) make the target basically unreadable when it comes to counting hits. Also, do we have to drop into the prone once we get past that 25 yard mark or can we shoot as we move toward the target, hit the 5 yard mark, and turn and run back to the 100y line? This is a very good point, and luckily, I think it's an easy fix. To answer thornejc first - You never "need" to drop into the prone - but you are risking very heavy Exposure Time penalties for going over the allotted 7 seconds. It is on you to decide whether you can cover 20 yards while moving and engaging the target and scoring good hits (remember, misses are stiff penalties as well) in 7 seconds, after sprinting 200 yards, and doing 3-5 second bounds for 75 yards. To answer Krater and the general issue that was raised - I did some reviewing of my own split times and some videos - BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front) - a simple adjustment to the timing rules is all that will be needed. Previously, I said Exposure Time stops as soon as you hit 5 yards. The timing will be adjusted so that your Exposure Time does not stop until you turn around and begin sprinting back to the Starting Line. Moreover, you may not terminate your final bound past 5 yards, nor may you bound again beyond 5 yards - though you may expose yourself and close with the target within 5 yards. Reviewing a couple of YouTube videos - Jerry Miculek was able to put 26 rounds on steel from about 7 yards with a 2011 double stack Race Gun from a single magazine. This took him 3.7 seconds. Which means he would have earned 13 points for his shooting score. Another video of... not Jerry Miculek had a guy "rapid firing" a Glock 19 with a 30 round magazine at a target at about 10 yards. This took him over 10 seconds. "Rounding" to 3 rounds per second, as far as his video indicated - he did not put all the rounds within the target size for this challenge - but even if he had - he would have earned 15 points for his shooting score. Remember - pistol hits are worth only 1/2 point. So - assuming you "game" the rules as best you can, and wait for the last possible second/distance and choose to get right to the 5 yard line and engage with your pistol, without engaging with your rifle at all (a poor decision, IMHO, because pistol hits only earn 1/2 point, while rifle rounds earn a full point) - and that your Exposure Time is ADDED to your total elapsed time for your final time total. If you shoot like Jerry Miculek... well damn. Take your 3.7 seconds of exposure time, and earn your 13 points. You deserve them... for being Jerry Miculek. If you shoot like Glock 19 guy - you stand up at 5 yards with your 3 round magazine - and you unleash 3 rounds per second into the target, holding them all within the target, before turning to run back to the Starting Line for the counter-attack, ending your Exposure Time. You earned 15 points for hitting the target - but it took you 10 seconds and ate up your Exposure Time - and you went 3 seconds over - meaning you incurred a 30 second penalty for exposure time, doubling your loss of anything you gained by shooting your pistol. Now - more "reasonably" - say you're using a standard pistol magazine of 15 rounds, shooting at the same speed - and put 15 rounds in 5 seconds on the target - you earned 7.5 points - but you also cost yourself 5 seconds, nearly cancelling out anything you gained by engaging with the pistol. Start missing, and while you're not losing points, per se - you're losing Exposure Time for no gain at all. Plus, you're taking a huge risk that, once again - after sprinting 200 yards, and doing 3-5 second bounds for 95 yards - that you're not going to over 7 seconds before turning around - after which you incur a 1 second penalty per 1/10th of a second. Again - it's a thinking and planning exercise - is the time risk worth the comparatively paltry gains for shooting the pistol. If you can shoot like Jerry after all that - it probably is, and you probably deserve the extra edge. If not... I would guess it's probably not. ~Augee The way you describe it, sounds like the pistol is not the best option, and won't gain you much. But what about the guy who only shoots one rifle shot from each bounding position, only to come up to the 5yd line and dump his mag with rapid fire there? If you are only doing 2 shots/second, which is more than doable at that range, especially with ammo like PMC gold, you could "use up" your 7 seconds of exposure time and score 14 hits, quite easily, I would think. What say you, Augee? |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 3:28:41 AM EDT
[#27]
shade_1313 has a pretty good understanding of my intent - thanks for responding and keeping it active!
EVR - I guess part of the issue is that the specific intent of this challenge is exactly all that "tactical discussion." I've edited it around a bunch - but this challenge was largely inspired by the "Clone" threads which people tend to either love or hate here - which involve a lot of discussion about how rifles look and what parts they use - but not how they are used - a U.S. military carbine is set up specifically for an individual to use to support a larger mission - the priorities and hows and whys of how they're put together do not necessarily always line up with people's individual weapon choices for "HD/SHTF/etc." While this challenge does not get anywhere near capturing all of that - the basic infantry individual movement technique of the 3-5 second bound is the most basic building block of all other things - if only because it puts into your mind the idea of "keep your head down so you don't get shot" and "close with and destroy the enemy." Obviously, when working in larger and larger "teams" (units and echelons), then into the combined arms world, Joint, SOF, etc. etc. things get a little bit more complex - this challenge is, for all intents and purposes "basic training shit." The thing about it is, in training - it seems like really mean physical hazing designed to get you to reconsider whether you even made a good decision being there in the first place - but it really is the building block of movement - "don't get shot - while moving towards the people who are shooting at you." Where I'm going with all of this - is that the "tactical discussion" is an integral part of the challenge, and to whit, the point of it. You're totally correct that simpler is going to be easier to understand, cause less friction, and have more participants - to which end, I've trying, and, with everyone's input, am trying to make it as simple as possible while still meeting the intent. However, I'd rather have fewer participants, and some good discussion about better or worse movement techniques under fire - than to simplify it down to a point where it becomes stiff, and by rote. The point of the exercise is to recognize that in a "real" gun fight, and specifically in this context, a military gun fight - there's a lot more to gun fighting than just shooting. The shooting is the easy part. The physical training, the sweating and running - that's also "easy." What's hard is the thinking - "How far can I actually get in 3 seconds? I'm super tired." "What patch of ground do I want to land on?" "What route will I run to get there?" "How am I going to come down? Am I going to land on my stock? My hands? Drop to my knees first, and drop my torso?" "How many rounds should I shoot this time so I don't run out, but I still keep the enemy's head down?" "When am I going to change magazines - and should I even bother at this point - or should I just get down now - or should I pull out my pistol?" "Should I risk being exposed longer to shoot more? Or should I shoot less, and get closer?" These are things that a "simpler" and more rigid rule structure would not force you to think about. The point is, this is not a "shooting" challenge. The challenge tests if you can shoot adequately. Beyond that, nothing is required - which is why, as you suggested - the target is a simple sheet of copy paper. Nothing more. Now, the challenge does penalize you for shooting sub-adequately, but it doesn't reward you for shooting above-adequately. There are already hundreds, if not thousands of drills geared towards that goal. What this challenge tests is your ability to think and to move - while shooting adequately. If the challenge has to be made simple to the point where those elements are eliminated - there's no reason for the challenge to exist at all. I can just post a video of Defoor's drill, and say - hey, let's all shoot that and exchange scores. ~Augee |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2015 3:37:51 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Augee:
I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're saying, but it sounds like you want to double the duration of the challenge, but not sprint?
Definitely understand physical injury, I've got seven screws and a plate in my arm as well! I'm not sure what you mean by injured but not wounded - but in the simplest sense, at least in a linear "fight" like this - if you're injured/wounded on contact, you support as best you're able - but for all intents and purposes - everyone else continues the assault, and you get attended to after the enemy is destroyed and the area secured. Certainly, I want as many people to participate in this as possible - so I will say this - If you're physically unable to sprint - you can still jog, or even walk back and forth from the target as needed. Your time may, in fact, be non-competitive - but it would still be a worthwhile (I think) exercise to run - the point is that you're moving as fast as you can move. If that happens to be a slow range walk - you're still stressing yourself and meeting the intent within your physical limitations - possibly more than a young buck with all his/her parts intact who is running. The sprinting portions are non-Exposure Time, so not scored against. That being said - to cover ground using 3-5 second rushes - you are, without a doubt, sprinting for short durations from position to position - if you're not - it's going to be one long movement down range, because you're only going to cover a couple of yards each bound - remember, getting down and getting up take a lot of energy, too - and the more times you have to do it, the more tired you're going to get - the running is the easy part of this challenge. ~Augee Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By AR-4C:
I'm also interested in this, but have some questions and inputs. For the sake of realism, what about individuals within the "virtual squad" that are injured (but not wounded) when fire is taken? This is what I have to work with. I shattered my left knee last August due to a bone disease; 5 screws in my left knee and the femur was rodded. What I thought, when the person bounds to the target from the starting point; after touching the target, they rebound 25 yards, take cover behind simulated barrier, load weapon, and return fire. Then get up, rebound another 3-5 seconds, and go prone. Continue this progression until they reach the starting point. Making sure to engage target at least once within 100-75 yard zone, 75-50 yard zone, 50-25 yard zone, and 25-0 yard zone. Once reaching the starting point, go prone, return fire, then bound back towards the target for 3-5 seconds to begin repelling the threat, and go prone. Bound another 3-5 seconds, and go prone. Bound another 3-5 seconds, and go prone. Continue this progression until reaching simulated barrier, take cover, and return fire. Bound another 3-5 seconds and go prone or reach 5 yards from target. Making sure to engage target at least once within 100-75 yard zone, 75-50 yard zone, 50-25 yard zone, and 25-0 yard zone. Time stops once reaching 5 yards from target when bounding back to repel threat. http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/AVIDavid1982/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zps60a1e2d4.jpg I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're saying, but it sounds like you want to double the duration of the challenge, but not sprint?
Definitely understand physical injury, I've got seven screws and a plate in my arm as well! I'm not sure what you mean by injured but not wounded - but in the simplest sense, at least in a linear "fight" like this - if you're injured/wounded on contact, you support as best you're able - but for all intents and purposes - everyone else continues the assault, and you get attended to after the enemy is destroyed and the area secured. Certainly, I want as many people to participate in this as possible - so I will say this - If you're physically unable to sprint - you can still jog, or even walk back and forth from the target as needed. Your time may, in fact, be non-competitive - but it would still be a worthwhile (I think) exercise to run - the point is that you're moving as fast as you can move. If that happens to be a slow range walk - you're still stressing yourself and meeting the intent within your physical limitations - possibly more than a young buck with all his/her parts intact who is running. The sprinting portions are non-Exposure Time, so not scored against. That being said - to cover ground using 3-5 second rushes - you are, without a doubt, sprinting for short durations from position to position - if you're not - it's going to be one long movement down range, because you're only going to cover a couple of yards each bound - remember, getting down and getting up take a lot of energy, too - and the more times you have to do it, the more tired you're going to get - the running is the easy part of this challenge. ~Augee The initial 200 yards is what was my concern. Moving 200 yards may seem to be the easy part for you, but imagine if you were born with a bone disease where you've had around 100-120 fractures by the time you were 15 y/o. consisting of your skull, spine, pelvis (multiple times), femurs (multiple times), shins, ankles, rib cage, shoulder blade, collar bone, wrist, knees, etc... Plus, bone deformities, bowed shins, etc..etc.. You are pretty fucked up beyond repair. But, it's not making me not want to give it a try. What I was getting at is after the 100 yard bound, being able to rebound 25 yards to behind simulated cover is a period of rest. Then, 3-5 seconds another rest period, and so forth and so forth. Another thing I was thinking is you bound the 100 yards, touch target, say this is the point attack commences. Running back 100 yards with your back to the enemy, I'd figure rebounding roughly 25 yards at a time and returning fire. You are trying to deny the enemy from moving as you work back the 100 yards. Upon reaching 100 yards, you have ground to begin pushing the threat back. This is my input for your simulation; which inevitably it will be your say how the simulation is run. |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 3:47:57 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FAB-10_Guy:
The way you describe it, sounds like the pistol is not the best option, and won't gain you much. But what about the guy who only shoots one rifle shot from each bounding position, only to come up to the 5yd line and dump his mag with rapid fire there? If you are only doing 2 shots/second, which is more than doable at that range, especially with ammo like PMC gold, you could "use up" your 7 seconds of exposure time and score 14 hits, quite easily, I would think. What say you, Augee? First of all - thanks for all the "gaming" questions! These are the things that I need, people trying to figure out how to "cheat," so I can tighten it up!
I'm serious about that - One thing to clarify - by the current rules the shooter needs to fire at least one 3 shot Engagement between each of the zones. That doesn't mean you can't do one bound, fire an Engagement (3 rounds), and go to your next position and fire 1 - but at some point, you need to have fired 3 shots at once. Regarding standing up and unloading at 5 yards... by the current rules, it wouldn't be prohibited, but my inclination is to say that 2 rounds per second on a piece of copy paper - after running the whole course of fire is going to be more difficult than it sounds. Remember, you score 1 point for a hit - but 10 seconds for going over time, 3 points for missing, and 2 points for not firing. You could "plan" to unload at 5 yards, thinking you'll be able to pull off 14 shots and hit the paper in 7 seconds, and end up taking 8 seconds to fire 10 shots, and miss 2. You will have "gained" -8 for your hits, but you will "lost" +10 seconds, and +6 points for missing - plus, if you'd planned your round count around shooting 14, you're now stuck with 4 extra rounds which you have to either accept a +2 point penalty for not firing, or take extra time at 100 yards to fire, after having sprinted that 100 yards. Nevertheless, I suspect that will be some people's "plan" at first, only to find that it doesn't work as well as they'd hoped, and abandoned after a learning curve for a better distributed approach. Of course - anyone willing to run a trial run so we can see how well it works out would be VERY welcome, and it would be very helpful! ~Augee |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 4:15:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Augee]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EVR:
So how is he going to make it a cof that is even remotely comparable between shooters on a forum who are using different range setups and then trying to score it? The point is that the COF is different between every shooter - they simply need to stay within very simple guidelines. Everything else is up to the shooter themselves to plan and determine - that thinking and planning is the challenge. There are two reasons for doing the scoring the way I've set it up currently - 1) Because, as I said, this is, in part, not just a shooting challenge, but an experiment in a method of doing an "online shooting match" of the type that in the past could only be done in an in-person competition event, which excludes a lot of people based on scheduling, travel funds, etc. With the widespread advent of smart-phones, taking acceptable quality video that's easily linked to the internet opens up a whole new media of interactive remote competition that was nearly impossible only five years ago. Internet competitions are all over the place that involve still images - and there are plenty of run and gun shooting competitions all over the country with COFs as complex, if not more than this one - but what I haven't really seen is a run-and-gun, "thinking man's," tactical - not marksmanship, based, internet video based, competition. 2) Posting the video - my hope is, at least - is an attempt to avoid the "scoring BS." The shooter self-scores their own target, but also posts a picture of it. The time, however, is up to judges, myself to start with - who already know the rules, and will review the video footage, and declare a score. When multiple judges are included - the level of transparency is that the rules are clearly posted for all to read - the shooter posts their video, and 3 judges in different places from within the community will each independently publish their score based on their understanding of the rules. The final score will be the mean score of the 3 judges. Any rule arguing should only go on between the 3 of them - as far as the shooters are concerned - like judges in any other game - are the arbiters and interpreters. If you don't clearly understand the rules and do it wrong - your score will reflect that - and a panel of 3 judges will have independently verified that, and you can argue and cry and take your ball home - or you can ask - "why is my score so low," and it can be explained to you - and you can try again - because of point 1, a competitor is not limited to "only one shot" at it, you can do it as many times as you want over whatever period of time you want. The part of the score that the shooter is responsible for - I think, at least - is very simple. Literally count holes on a piece of paper. Big holes = pistol. Small holes = rifle. Add and subtract. "Standardization" is exactly what I don't want for this challenge, and if it has to be standardized, and no longer meets the intent, then there's no point in doing it. The point is - this whole format is experimental - and while we all want our experiments to succeed - the fact of life is that most experiments fail. You attempt them, you learn from them, and then you revise your experiment, and try again. 
P.S. In favor of simplicity - I'm also considering removing the barrier component of the COF. Long story short, the barrier is an artifact from an earlier, more complex version of the COF that I had already simplified down by the time I posted the COF publicly, which had to do with planning a covered and concealed route to the objective. More fun, IMHO - and more "thinking and planning" intensive - but ultimately, too complicated for a "first go" at this exercise, though it may re-appear if this is successful enough for a second iteration. Right now, the barrier still fulfills the "thinking and planning" component in a somewhat reduced capacity - and it serves to break up the course of fire and provide a little bit of a break from having to go to the prone on every bound, but it also represents a mid-course rule change that might complicate things and not be worth the confusion? Or, I could simply not change the Defilade Time allotment, and let the barrier just be another bounding position that you can kneel at, rather than having to go prone. Thoughts? ~Augee |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:29:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: EVR]
[#31]
Thanks for all the explanations. They sum up your intent and the goals well. I am still fuzzy on the rules but I'll just sit back and see how they unfold since it looks like there will be lots of revision before the final draft comes out anyhow.
Your method sounds really interesting and I hope it works out. I think you will get folks videoing themselves and loving that part of it but knowing ARFCOM as I do, without hard and fast rules, that will be the end of it. Maybe you'll get a few vids that actually meet your goals. But I am laying my cash on lots of argumentation, discussion and no way to score what you think you will be able to score. Maybe the scoring is of no account. Which to be honest, I think will be more appealing to many here who would rather have it all personalized and want an excuse not to be scored or compared to anyone else anyhow. I am also curious as to how this is even allowed on the AR technical side since it is, as you have stated, clearly an exercise in tactical discussion and will not in any way really be a technical AR discussion as is normally defined in discussion about guns that drift off to somewhat related but not clearly technical AR issues. I have personally had a number of my threads on use of the rifle or otherwise related {but not "technical"} moved to GD. Which was fine as I get that now. So I was merely trying to help you there to prevent a lot of work on your part and then having the thing shut down or moved to GD which maybe you should put it in the first place? Having said that, with your standing on the forum maybe the mods will grant you license to do what you want where they might shut down the rest of us. You might twist some arms there and see what you can get. If so, that will take care of that problem and you'll be able to proceed.
I posted a number of questions back a ways. Here they are again. 1} Can one camera be set up at the 100 yard line and just turned on and left? Or is some other more sophisticated setup required? {I don't have a go-pro and frankly, don't really have a great video setup. So if this requires sophistication on the video end, it is going to be one more difficulty added to making it available to as many as possible}. 2} If this thing is scored, shouldn't firing points be set up so a specific number of shots are fired at each range thus standardizing the COF some? Or did I miss that somehow? {I think you answered that one. Standardized scoring unimportant.} 3} What is the target size? Is there any specific aiming point you want to use and score or are you only interested in "hits"? {I think you answered that one. But is there a target size? If so I missed it. Pun intended. LOL} 4} You say the cof is not limited to AR's. How will that sit with the AR section site Moderators? What if, say, I want to shoot it with a Mosin-Nagant and a whole bunch of clips or whatever, will they allow posting of that and discussion, too? I set my SHTF Challenge in the AR section and then moved it to GD in order to allow other rifles. {Again, see my concerns about topic issues and moderating above. Personally I'd like to see this thing expanded beyond the AR rifle itself to include other rifles, actually, whatever anyone wants to use, tho I don't think you'll get many to do it.} I hope you don't see my posts as critical or down on your goals and whatnot. I think your idea is GREAT. I would like to see your thing go well but 1} I don't know if I and maybe many others can meet the video requirement...I'm talking to my wife about her android and 2} I think you'll get lots of background noise with little productive results if the thing is complicated and not pretty strongly standardized, UNLESS you ditch the scoring end of it and just let guys bang away and show off their new rifle and go-pro which I could visualize being popular on this site. The video requirement is GREAT by the way as I am certain you are right about the BS element in some of the shooting Challenges. I'm pretty sure I've seen some powder burns on some of the targets before... To possibly connect in some way to your goals, I see it like this. The ultimate scoring is survival in the context of a real life scenario you describe. Scoring itself and competition and comparisons/contrasts between members adds a dimension of stress that I believe most members on this forum won't want {from looking at how hard it is just to get people to shoot the various shooting challenges}. THAT is all the more reason to set it up so some form of direct and comparable scoring IS required. IMHO. Cheers and good luck. I hope this thing pans out well. |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 1:49:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: America]
[#32]
I continue to say that down time needs to be time shot. It should not be included in your up time. You are mis-using this in my opinion. This will breed bad habits like reloading on the move. Few people can take a shot then reload and have time to move from the prone in the time allotment you have.
I don't understand why you have set it like this. You shouldn't reload for this unless you are dry as you have a base number of rounds given. You shouldn't move while you are in your 'engagement' time because you should be moving then. You are simulating the bounding process of two teams moving. The team that is down is shooting while the other team is moving. You don't reload when you are moving and you don't shoot when you are moving. You are closing with the enemy. I have decided to not shoot this at this time because I don't feel like wasting the ammo or my time during finals. I think this can be fixed but the timing isn't something I wish to be the test case for and is starting to seem a lot more like make pretend than I care to deal with. |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 2:20:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EVR:
I posted a number of questions back a ways. Here they are again. 1} Can one camera be set up at the 100 yard line and just turned on and left? Or is some other more sophisticated setup required? {I don't have a go-pro and frankly, don't really have a great video setup. So if this requires sophistication on the video end, it is going to be one more difficulty added to making it available to as many as possible}. As long as the video meets the requirements - i.e. it shows you bounding in a way that a reviewer can take accurate time measurements - they would really only be looking for gross movements - when do you get up - how long does it take you to move - when do you get down, then it is fine. This can be done with someone following you with a smartphone - or, as long as the video shows what it needs to, from a stationary tripod mounted camera. My recommendation would be to do a "test" video with a stationary camera to make sure you can see everything, including getting up and getting down, before going full steam. Things like noise for shot counts, and exactly measuring distance "zones" for engagements is dictated, but partially based on the honor system... like everything online. As of right now, a rail cover and a t-shirt are all that's on the line for "winning," so it's mostly about participation and the experience and getting feedback. Essentially, the stakes are not that serious. 2} If this thing is scored, shouldn't firing points be set up so a specific number of shots are fired at each range thus standardizing the COF some? Or did I miss that somehow? {I think you answered that one. Standardized scoring unimportant.} Nope. Would defeat the point of the exercise. Points scoring is just to determine whether you shoot adequately. The COF is the bounding movements, not the shooting. That is scored based on timing. The points score for shooting is basically set up to punish you for going out and shooting like a maniac, or being trigger shy, and not shooting enough to keep the enemy's head down, not to reward you for shooting particularly well. 3} What is the target size? Is there any specific aiming point you want to use and score or are you only interested in "hits"? {I think you answered that one. But is there a target size? If so I missed it. Pun intended. LOL} Target size is in the description and the first range setup graphic (I know there's a lot to comb through that needs to be cleaned up )
It's a single, white, 8.5x11" sheet of printer paper, oriented vertically, with no addition aim-points, references, or bullseyes on it. 4} You say the cof is not limited to AR's. How will that sit with the AR section site Moderators? What if, say, I want to shoot it with a Mosin-Nagant and a whole bunch of clips or whatever, will they allow posting of that and discussion, too? I set my SHTF Challenge in the AR section and then moved it to GD in order to allow other rifles. {Again, see my concerns about topic issues and moderating above. Personally I'd like to see this thing expanded beyond the AR rifle itself to include other rifles, actually, whatever anyone wants to use, tho I don't think you'll get many to do it.} The original post has been modified to expand the purview of the challenge - originally it directed specifically at the clone threads. I've not heard any feedback thus far from Moderation or Staff, but have no desire whatsoever to be a "more special animal" on the farm, however, I would point out, that on such an expansive site about AR15s, there is very little in terms of a venue for discussion of actual tactics and employment. The closest is "training," but that's mostly geared towards courses and instruction and manipulation and marksmanship training. A large part of this, I suspect is issues with too publicly discussing current TTPs without a more extensive vetting process on the open source internet, and the high potential for butt-hurt when it comes to "you're doing it wrong" "no I'm not" pissing matches, but it is what it is. I would point out, however, two things - 1) we tend to refer to this section as "AR Tech," but it's actual heading is "AR Discussion," a point that's been brought up in the "should we move the picture threads" discussion 2) also, semantically, even if we accept the fact, as most do, that this is the "AR Tech" forum, "Technical" can have be defined as "technical specifications," but it can also deal with "technique" in the vein of "tactics, techniques, and procedures." ~Augee |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 2:28:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Augee:
~Augee Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By EVR:
I posted a number of questions back a ways. Here they are again. 1} Can one camera be set up at the 100 yard line and just turned on and left? Or is some other more sophisticated setup required? {I don't have a go-pro and frankly, don't really have a great video setup. So if this requires sophistication on the video end, it is going to be one more difficulty added to making it available to as many as possible}. As long as the video meets the requirements - i.e. it shows you bounding in a way that a reviewer can take accurate time measurements - they would really only be looking for gross movements - when do you get up - how long does it take you to move - when do you get down, then it is fine. This can be done with someone following you with a smartphone - or, as long as the video shows what it needs to, from a stationary tripod mounted camera. My recommendation would be to do a "test" video with a stationary camera to make sure you can see everything, including getting up and getting down, before going full steam. Things like noise for shot counts, and exactly measuring distance "zones" for engagements is dictated, but partially based on the honor system... like everything online. As of right now, a rail cover and a t-shirt are all that's on the line for "winning," so it's mostly about participation and the experience and getting feedback. Essentially, the stakes are not that serious. 2} If this thing is scored, shouldn't firing points be set up so a specific number of shots are fired at each range thus standardizing the COF some? Or did I miss that somehow? {I think you answered that one. Standardized scoring unimportant.} Nope. Would defeat the point of the exercise. Points scoring is just to determine whether you shoot adequately. The COF is the bounding movements, not the shooting. That is scored based on timing. The points score for shooting is basically set up to punish you for going out and shooting like a maniac, or being trigger shy, and not shooting enough to keep the enemy's head down, not to reward you for shooting particularly well. 3} What is the target size? Is there any specific aiming point you want to use and score or are you only interested in "hits"? {I think you answered that one. But is there a target size? If so I missed it. Pun intended. LOL} Target size is in the description and the first range setup graphic (I know there's a lot to comb through that needs to be cleaned up )
It's a single, white, 8.5x11" sheet of printer paper, oriented vertically, with no addition aim-points, references, or bullseyes on it. 4} You say the cof is not limited to AR's. How will that sit with the AR section site Moderators? What if, say, I want to shoot it with a Mosin-Nagant and a whole bunch of clips or whatever, will they allow posting of that and discussion, too? I set my SHTF Challenge in the AR section and then moved it to GD in order to allow other rifles. {Again, see my concerns about topic issues and moderating above. Personally I'd like to see this thing expanded beyond the AR rifle itself to include other rifles, actually, whatever anyone wants to use, tho I don't think you'll get many to do it.} The original post has been modified to expand the purview of the challenge - originally it directed specifically at the clone threads. I've not heard any feedback thus far from Moderation or Staff, but have no desire whatsoever to be a "more special animal" on the farm, however, I would point out, that on such an expansive site about AR15s, there is very little in terms of a venue for discussion of actual tactics and employment. The closest is "training," but that's mostly geared towards courses and instruction and manipulation and marksmanship training. A large part of this, I suspect is issues with too publicly discussing current TTPs without a more extensive vetting process on the open source internet, and the high potential for butt-hurt when it comes to "you're doing it wrong" "no I'm not" pissing matches, but it is what it is. I would point out, however, two things - 1) we tend to refer to this section as "AR Tech," but it's actual heading is "AR Discussion," a point that's been brought up in the "should we move the picture threads" discussion 2) also, semantically, even if we accept the fact, as most do, that this is the "AR Tech" forum, "Technical" can have be defined as "technical specifications," but it can also deal with "technique" in the vein of "tactics, techniques, and procedures." ~Augee Thanks Augee! |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 2:28:59 PM EDT
[#35]
I'm still having trouble understanding all of the rules exactly, since I'm more of a "watch it happen then repeat with your own skill" type learner.
But what Nick is saying makes sense to me. Reloading on the move would be bad for business with no cover and enemy within 100, and another team down laying out rounds for you to advance to next cover ASAFP(alive) Laying down fire would slow you down as well, which leaves more time for the team laying down fire to go dry. If I'm understanding the rules semi-correctly as well as Nicks points, it sounds like you would be getting rewarded for putting yourself and your whole team in danger, in a situation that would get you killed IRL. For competitions sake, no biggie. But realism sake, sounds dangerous lol |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 2:35:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney:
I continue to say that down time needs to be time shot. It should not be included in your up time. You are mis-using this in my opinion. I can totally accept this comment, and I don't disagree either, and once again, I totally welcome your input, particularly as you seem to have a good handle on my intent. As I've mentioned before - this is a modified COF based on some drills I already do on my own, but that have never had as rigid of a scoring system, since I was only "competing" against myself. The time scoring method has been, by far, the single most difficult thing for me to try to develop, and went through multiple revisions and attempts at developing before I even posted this thread.
The scoring method and refining it was also one of the reasons that this is a "discussion" thread, and I didn't just go "live" with the challenge. What I could use from you - again, since you seem to fully understand my intent and desired endstate, is some hard suggestions for how to make the scoring rules more reflective of that intent, without sacrificing simplicity, practicality, and straying too far into "make pretend." That goes for everyone, by the way. I'm also more than happy to go back to the drawing board with the time rubric - again - so long as it meets the intent of the exercise. And, I fully understand not wanting to waste time and ammunition being the "test case," but one of the reasons that I needed to post this for input was that I'm limited in my own test runs by the fact that I already know my intent - and even if I tried to, it would be difficult to intentionally violate it. What I need to see is if it makes sense for people who are not me, or my friends, who I've had a chance to talk to in person, extensively, demonstrate for, in person, and continually OC. Making the COF and scoring rules realistic enough, but simple enough to understand, score, and execute has certainly been a big hurdle. I will say that the "Defilade Time/Exposure Time" is a gross perversion and re-appropriation of terms/concepts from mounted gunnery, not leg-stuff, but, obviously, I'm lacking things like berm drills, and turret top defilade, automated and timed targetry, etc. that make mounted gunnery work. Thanks, ~Augee |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 2:43:10 PM EDT
[#37]
nickforney, et al. -
Do you think it might be simpler/more representative to just have fixed DT - 5 seconds for DT to shoot with (while your buddy moves), and 5 seconds ET to do your own 3-5 second bound? It eliminates some of the pre-planning and choice of when to fire/how fast to fire requirements about when you start your exposure time - but it also probably makes the scoring system much simpler and easier to understand, and better reflects the scenario. Maybe ET starts when you get up, not when you fire. Will require a look back at ways that it could be "cheated" or "gamed," and how it will effect that, but I think it might be the right direction to go. Thoughts? ~Augee |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 2:43:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thornejc]
[#38]
nevermind was accidentally reading page 1 instead of 4
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USA
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Posted: 5/12/2015 2:44:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Krater]
[#39]
Just as my personal feedback - what makes it interesting to me are the requirements that add more "tactical" flavor vs being simply "shooting exercise". So even though sprinting there/back and all the going into prone/out of prone will kick my ass from here to Kirkuk, I think it makes it more fun. And heck...if if takes me 5 minutes to finish it with score of 320, then that's what the reality of my situation is. Hopefully next time I do it, I can reduce it to 310. :)
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Posted: 5/12/2015 2:50:41 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Augee:
nickforney, et al. - Do you think it might be simpler/more representative to just have fixed DT - 5 seconds for DT to shoot with (while your buddy moves), and 5 seconds ET to do your own 3-5 second bound? It eliminates some of the pre-planning and choice of when to fire/how fast to fire requirements about when you start your exposure time - but it also probably makes the scoring system much simpler and easier to understand, and better reflects the scenario. Maybe ET starts when you get up, not when you fire. Will require a look back at ways that it could be "cheated" or "gamed," and how it will effect that, but I think it might be the right direction to go. Thoughts? ~Augee It takes a little of the flex out of it, but I think you're on the right track with that change. If its a little more rigid, it will help the majority understand the COF and rules and ACTUALLY do it. |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 5:56:11 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DontBuryMe:
It takes a little of the flex out of it, but I think you're on the right track with that change. If its a little more rigid, it will help the majority understand the COF and rules and ACTUALLY do it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DontBuryMe:
Originally Posted By Augee:
nickforney, et al. - Do you think it might be simpler/more representative to just have fixed DT - 5 seconds for DT to shoot with (while your buddy moves), and 5 seconds ET to do your own 3-5 second bound? It eliminates some of the pre-planning and choice of when to fire/how fast to fire requirements about when you start your exposure time - but it also probably makes the scoring system much simpler and easier to understand, and better reflects the scenario. Maybe ET starts when you get up, not when you fire. Will require a look back at ways that it could be "cheated" or "gamed," and how it will effect that, but I think it might be the right direction to go. Thoughts? ~Augee It takes a little of the flex out of it, but I think you're on the right track with that change. If its a little more rigid, it will help the majority understand the COF and rules and ACTUALLY do it. Yep it is more simplistic and more representative of IMT which was the goal. |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:05:21 PM EDT
[#42]
Working on a re-draft with some adjustments made.
Assuming fixed 5 seconds DT and 5 seconds ET (no more first shot ET start) - Barrier or no barrier? I think it's still worthwhile in and that you get one "rest" break, and you need to wargame when the best time to take it would be - and place it based on your own discretion. No other changes to the rules or scoring. ~Augee |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:09:00 PM EDT
[#43]
no barrier. Im gonna see if I can do it tomorrow. My time is limited right now so hopefully I can get to the range.
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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:12:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thornejc]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Augee:
Working on a re-draft with some adjustments made. Assuming fixed 5 seconds DT and 5 seconds ET (no more first shot ET start) - Barrier or no barrier? I think it's still worthwhile in and that you get one "rest" break, and you need to wargame when the best time to take it would be - and place it based on your own discretion. No other changes to the rules or scoring. ~Augee I kinda like the barrier... it is just one thing that kinda breaks up the monotony of running up for 5 sec, going prone/shooting, and repeating. Even if you don't get unlimited DT behind it... it just adds something different to the course |
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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:16:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheGunslinger]
[#45]
My suggestion, shooter placed barrier not required, but use of available barriers and microterrain is necessary.
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Posted: 5/12/2015 9:21:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thornejc]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheGunslinger:
My suggestion, shooter placed barrier not required, but use of available barriers and microterrain is necessary. I wouldn't mind it being optional and even if it isn't the whole unlimited DT deal. It can still be used for a standard 5 second DT (the unlimited DT def doesn't upset tho) but you are just at a barrier/cover instead of laying on the ground proned out. I'll do it whatever way augee sees fit but I think using some type of cover would make things a little more interesting for the shooter and the people watching the videos. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 5/13/2015 2:16:52 AM EDT
[#47]
I like the idea of using barriers
I like the concept of using whatever barriers/obstacles are present in your current environment. I like more rigid/simple DT/ET like you mentioned. I like keeping ET going @ 5yd line until you turn around and start running back 5 sec of DT get burned up REALLY fast when going prone. I find it can easily take me 5 seconds to go from standing to prone and acquire target just for 1 shot. Gonna take a lot longer for multiple shots. Not sure if you want to extend DT to 10 sec, or if that would defeat the purpose of the exercise. I haven't tried it yet from running to prone. Have you figured out how to merge the two scores (points and time) into one final meaningful score yet? Or will the final score be reflected as a two-part score like 36/2:56 or something like that. Which is more important--points or time? From reading your posts, I'm thinking time, but not sure. Is there a way to translate points into time bonuses or penalties too? I guess you could just start by counting points as seconds and adding it to the total time score and see how that works as a starting point. Otherwise you may need to consider conversion factors or other such instruments to give the points score the appropriate weight you desire for this exercise. |
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Posted: 5/13/2015 2:49:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Augee]
[#48]
Okay - Revised OP with adjustments and feedback to try to make everything a little bit simpler, but still meet the intent, and utilizing the "Spoiler" tags to make the whole thing less unwieldy to read. Clicking on the "Spoiler" tag will expand each section for more detail, while clicking on it again will collapse the section back down.
"I'm Up. He Sees Me. I'm Down." Individual Movement and Combat Shooting Virtual Challenge The intent of this challenge is two-fold. 1) To challenge shooters to practice the Individual Movement Technique (IMT) of the "3-5 Second Bound." The 3-5 Second Bound is the basic building block and foundation of tactical movement, and is focused on advancing towards the enemy, while limiting exposure to incoming fire, in order to close with, and destroy the enemy. 2) To create a challenge that takes advantage of technology and media to create a virtual version of a "run and gun" competition that almost anyone can easily execute on their own, and on their own schedule by replicating the course of fire, using minimal assets - but receive feedback, and an opportunity to be competitively scored against other shooters all over the country, and potentially the world. While assets requirements are minimal, there are, however, some prerequisites that participants must have access to in order to take part in this challenge: PREREQUISITES (click on "Spoiler" tag to expand): Click To View Spoiler In addition to these prerequisites - the challenge requires the following equipment (click on "Spoiler" tag to expand): EQUIPMENT LIST: Click To View Spoiler SCENARIO (click on "Spoiler" tag to expand): Click To View Spoiler ENTRY REQUIREMENTS: In order to enter the challenge, each shooter will submit to the forum - 1) A video recording from the 3rd person of the shooter executing the course of fire - if no assistant is available - shooters may film themselves, as long as the video adheres to the following requirements The video can be static or moving, as long as it clearly shows the shooter executing the bounding movements and closing with the target. The video must begin before the starting signal, and end after the counter-attack. The video will be uploaded to YouTube and/or embedded into the shooter's post on the forum. 2) Additionally, the shooter will submit a clear photograph of their target after scoring - the shooter will self-score their own target based on the rubric provided below, and write their own round additions and subtractions on the paper. 3) The shooter will also submit a photograph of their rifle that they fired the course of fire with, as well as their pistol, if applicable - with a parts list. RANGE SETUP AND COURSE OF FIRE: 
Range Setup: A single target composed of a single, clean sheet of white, 8.5x11" printer paper, oriented vertically (shorter face at the top and bottom, taller than it is wide) with no aiming points, bullseyes, or other points of reference on it placed at 100 yards. Optionally, the shooter may choose to place one (1) simulated barrier, anywhere on the course between 100 yards and 15 yards from the target. Course of Fire: 1) The shooter will begin at the starting line with all their equipment on their person, prepared to execute the course of fire, to include their rifle, magazines, and sidearm (optional). The shooter's sidearm may be loaded, with a round chambered, only if carried in a holster. The shooter's rifle will be in a "GREEN" status: Weapon on "SAFE," no rounds chambered, no magazine loaded. 2) The course of fire will be initiated by some audible or visible signal - to include, but not limited to, a whistle, a flare, someone shouting "ASSAULT, ASSAULT, ASSAULT," a shot-timer buzzer, a starter's pistol or blank round, etc. 3) The shooter will then run from the starting line to the target, and physically touch the target, before running back to the starting line, where the shooter will load and make ready their weapon. 4) Once the shooter has loaded their weapon, they will have up to five (5) seconds to take up a prone position and fire one (1) engagement (a minimum of three (3) rounds) at the target. 5) The shooter then gets up, and moves down range for 3-5 seconds before dropping down again, into a prone position. Once in the prone, the shooter has up to five (5) seconds to fire on the target. 6) The shooter repeats this as many times as necessary until reaching the 15 yard line, firing at least one engagement (at least 3 rounds) between 100-75 yards, 75-50 yards, 50-25 yard, and 25-0 yards. 7) Once the shooter reaches the 15 yard line, the shooter will advance on the target, closing to within at least 5 yards of the target, turn around, run back to the starting line, take up a prone position, and fire one engagement (at least 3 rounds) at the target. The course of fire ends when the shooter indicates that their final engagement is over by rising from the prone position. ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONS: The shooter must fire a minimum of six (6) engagements of three (3) rounds each - 1. 100 yards 2. Between 100-75 yards 3. Between 75-50 yards 4. Between 50-25 yards 5. Between 25-0 yards 6. 100 yards ...accounting for eighteen (18) total rounds fired out of thirty (30). The shooter will be responsible for budgeting the remaining twelve (12) rounds, and determining where and when and how to shoot them, or they may elect to accept a point penalty for unfired rounds after the conclusion of the course of fire. However, the shooter must ALSO fire their weapon at the target on EVERY bound, each time they return to the prone position or they will receive a time penalty. If the shooter runs out of ammunition before completing the course of fire, they will be disqualified, however, if they are carrying the optional sidearm, they may choose to complete the course of fire with their sidearm. If the shooter chooses to emplace the optional barrier - the shooter is permitted to fire from a kneeling position, rather than taking up a prone position AT THAT LOCATION ONLY. The barrier MUST already be in place before the shooter begins the course of fire, and be visible on the shooter's video. The shooter may not bound to closer than 15 yards from the target, however, they must continue to advance forward on foot towards the target to within at least 5 yards SCORING: Scoring will be accomplished by a combined "Points" and "Time" score. Shooters will be responsible for calculating their own "Points" and submitting this time, along with a photograph of their scored target, to be submitted in a forum post along with their video, and photograph of the weapon(s) used. Time will be scored BY PRE-SELECTED JUDGES who will review each shooter's video and calculate the Time Score based on the following guidelines - THE SHOOTER IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR KEEPING TRACK OF THEIR OWN TIME SCORE - JUST SUBMIT THE VIDEO Once the Points and Time scores are calculated - they will be added together to produce a combined score. The goal is the lowest possible combined score. POINTS: Each participant will calculate their "Points" score individually and submit a photograph of their scored target - SEE EXAMPLE The "Points" represent the shooting component of the exercise - and is based on the number of holes on the paper, the number of rounds left in your magazine, and the number of misses.
Explanation (click on "Spoiler" tag to expand): Click To View Spoiler TIME: Time will be scored BY PRE-SELECTED JUDGES who will review each shooter's video and calculate the Time Score based on the following guidelines - THE SHOOTER IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR KEEPING TRACK OF THEIR OWN TIME SCORE - JUST SUBMIT THE VIDEO Shooters will be scored on a combined "Exposure Time" and "Elapsed Time" scoring method. Once the signal to start has been given, the shooter's Elapsed Time begins. The shooter may take up to five (5) seconds each time they take a prone position (or kneeling position at the optional barricade) of Defilade Time to fire on the target, reload, clear stoppages, etc. After five (5) seconds of Defilade Time, the shooter has five (5) seconds to execute their next bound, and move to their next position. As this time represents the time during which the shooter is exposed to enemy fire, it is considered Exposure Time. Exposure Time stops being counted once the shooter has closed within at least 5 yards of the target and has turned around and has begun moving back to the starting line to react to the counter-attack. The final time score total will be calculated as the overall time elapsed PLUS Exposure Time. TIME PENALTIES (click on "Spoiler" tag to expand): Click To View Spoiler DIVISIONS: There will be six (6) total Divisions, subdivided based on the following categories (click on "Spoiler" tag to expand): 1) Military/Subcompact/Slick 2) Military/Subcompact/Full Kit 3) Military/Long Gun/Slick 4) Military/Long Gun/Full Kit 5) Unlimited/Slick 6) Unlimited/Full Kit Click To View Spoiler OKAY, SO WHAT DO I GET FOR WINNING?: At least one (1) KAC Black, 11-Rib RAS Rail Cover per Division. Additional prizes TBA. ~Augee ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Earlier draft version of the challenge (disregard): Click To View Spoiler |
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Posted: 5/13/2015 3:19:36 AM EDT
[#49]
Alright -
I've edited the OP to be identical to the post above. Give me your thoughts. I've tried to simplify the COF based on the input y'all have given me, some of which inspired other ideas. However, this will probably end up being a draft version of the post that I will use when the challenge goes "live," which I will start another thread for. I need some fresh eyes to look over the revisions in general - but also to determine if all the needed information is in the first post, not the several subsequent pages of discussion. Once the COF has been finalized, the only things left will be to do a "demo video" of myself running the COF and demonstrating the finalized version - then to get two volunteers to help judge time. ~Augee |
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Posted: 5/13/2015 9:38:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: EVR]
[#50]
Augee;
What you have here is a good training cof but the scoring is going to be more or less irrelevant from shooter to shooter, relevant only for the shooter to gauge his own performance against himself due to the variables incorporated in your rules. That is, each guy will set up his own mutually-exclusive range and then his own way of doing it, and can then try to improve without regard to standings among other shooters. If that is the goal and guys want to use your plan as a foundation for training, then it looks good. If the goal is to be able to make some comparison between oneself and others, it is unworkable. What you have is a good training program, but not a basis for what you might call a "qualification" cof whereby over time a standard is set, a bar, and shooters attempt to meet a performance goal or are compared between themselves as are the other challenges here on arfcom. You plan does not lend itself to making scorable comparisons between shooters. If you take some time to study the various approved and proposed cof's on for example the DTIC website, you will see what I have been very ineffectively and poorly trying to explain. All the concepts and principles have been worked out by Uncle over the years, and there are some very interesting doctrines drawn from tons of experience over the decades developing cof's IF setting standards of performance and making comparisons between shooters is a goal. In essence, what you have put together is a great training program for individuals which could then be proven by a good qualification cof. The latter will embody some simplification and standardization not present in the training plan and it will also incorporate a scoring model that will make comparisons between shooters relevant and legitimate which under the current plan they are not. |
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