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Posted: 5/5/2015 2:26:32 PM EDT
[#1]
In my experience, my groups tighten themselves up the more you shoot.
If you are consistently shooting 1 MOA groups then a good trigger can help. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 2:43:34 PM EDT
[#2]
A nice trigger will make it easier to be consistent. It's not going to magically make you shoot better though.
1 MOA is pretty good, especially with off the shelf ammunition. I think it's more likely your barrel is only going to be good with that ammunition to about 1MOA. Working through a ladder load and getting a nice trigger may help you squeeze it down to .5 or .75MOA. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 3:14:55 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A nice trigger will make it easier to be consistent. It's not going to magically make you shoot better though. 1 MOA is pretty good, especially with off the shelf ammunition. I think it's more likely your barrel is only going to be good with that ammunition to about 1MOA. Working through a ladder load and getting a nice trigger may help you squeeze it down to .5 or .75MOA. This.... Although my SCAR 17 came with a terrible trigger and I could not group for shit with it. It was around 8-9# gritty and did not break cleanly. Replaced it with a Geissele Super Scar now the rifle can shoot as good as I can the trigger was a limiting factor on that rifle I was lucky to get 4-5MOA. Now the rifle is a 1-2MOA rifle depending on ammo. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 3:20:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Unless the trigger you are using is horrid I don't think it's going to make much of a difference in group size from a supported position.
If you need to shoot standing, a good trigger will help.  I'm a fan of the AR Gold trigger. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 3:39:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless the trigger you are using is horrid I don't think it's going to make much of a difference in group size from a supported position. If you need to shoot standing, a good trigger will help. I'm a fan of the AR Gold trigger.
I have to say to see someone on this forum who is a U.S. Marine Corps Distinguished Marksman is really impressive. It takes one heck of a shooter to achieve that level. My cover is off to you. SEMPER FI 
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Posted: 5/5/2015 4:53:00 PM EDT
[#6]
When you say "groups" are you talking three shot groups, five shot groups, or ten shot groups?
And how consistent are the groups? Anyone can sometimes have three shots fall within 1 inch even if the rifle and optic are not up to the task. This gets harder with five shot groups. Then consistency becomes the theme. Can you get those one MOA groups every time, or just some of the time with five shots? Ther true test is consistent ten shot groups. Show us some ten shot targets, say three of them, with that ammo and trigger and let us see how consistent they are. My guess is that the SSA-E will produce far more repeatable, consistently small groups than a milspec trigger. Otherwise, benchrest shooters would not be using triggers down in the single digit ounce range with no creep or over travel. Even if you are at the limits of your rifle, I would think that your consistency would be greatly improved with a lighter trigger with a very precise break. It just takes a lot of the variables in technique out of the equation or greatly reduces them. It's also the same thing with magnification. A high magnification scope with very good glass does not make your rifle more accurate. But, chances are that you will shoot much more consistent, tight groups at bench with a 24x scope with good glass and a thin target type reticle, than with a 4x scope with a thick reticle or with a red dot. The high magnification lets you be far more precise in lining up the shot, and in combination with the reticle can place your crosshairs within individual quadrants or less of the inner most circle of the bullseye of the target, or in individual squares of a scope target where one inch center square is quartered. Precise trigger control with a minimum of pressure and finger movement makes a difference. A one MOA rifle deserves a trigger that will let you use its accuracy consistently and repeatedly. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 5:23:20 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 5/5/2015 5:32:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you say "groups" are you talking three shot groups, five shot groups, or ten shot groups? And how consistent are the groups? Anyone can sometimes have three shots fall within 1 inch even if the rifle and optic are not up to the task. This gets harder with five shot groups. Then consistency becomes the theme. Can you get those one MOA groups every time, or just some of the time with five shots? Ther true test is consistent ten shot groups. Show us some ten shot targets, say three of them, with that ammo and trigger and let us see how consistent they are. My guess is that the SSA-E will produce far more repeatable, consistently small groups than a milspec trigger. Otherwise, benchrest shooters would not be using triggers down in the single digit ounce range with no creep or over travel. Even if you are at the limits of your rifle, I would think that your consistency would be greatly improved with a lighter trigger with a very precise break. It just takes a lot of the variables in technique out of the equation or greatly reduces them. It's also the same thing with magnification. A high magnification scope with very good glass does not make your rifle more accurate. But, chances are that you will shoot much more consistent, tight groups at bench with a 24x scope with good glass and a thin target type reticle, than with a 4x scope with a thick reticle or with a red dot. The high magnification lets you be far more precise in lining up the shot, and in combination with the reticle can place your crosshairs within individual quadrants or less of the inner most circle of the bullseye of the target, or in individual squares of a scope target where one inch center square is quartered. Precise trigger control with a minimum of pressure and finger movement makes a difference. A one MOA rifle deserves a trigger that will let you use its accuracy consistently and repeatedly. Great post and agree with everything you stated. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 6:46:54 PM EDT
[#9]
The only difference I notice between my 3.5lb and 7-8lb triggers is that my index finger gets sore after 40-100 rounds with the heavier triggers (the proper grip helps to reduce this some.) Face it, our best bench rest shooters don't use 2-3lb triggers, they use 2-3oz triggers.
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Posted: 5/5/2015 9:39:49 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A nice trigger will make it easier to be consistent. It's not going to magically make you shoot better though. 1 MOA is pretty good, especially with off the shelf ammunition. I think it's more likely your barrel is only going to be good with that ammunition to about 1MOA. Working through a ladder load and getting a nice trigger may help you squeeze it down to .5 or .75MOA. Agree. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 11:00:37 PM EDT
[#11]
thanks for the replies everybody. So here is my build nothing fancy its a budget/lightweight "SPR" build:
18 inch SPR WOA 1/7 Barrel (its stainless steel but painted it will high temp engine paint  so far its holding up)
Bushmaster Lower/Upper receiver (the fit is very snug, not to much play) Stag LPK TROY alpha rail YMH low profile gas block Phantom Flash suppressor The optic is just a 1-9x bushnell Its a 4 shot group the one on the right is two shots. As mentioned i do have to shoot more groups and ill shoot a ten shot group and see how that does. So with this kind of ammo i thought it would do better. I think my carbine is shooting MOA with standard federal ammo. What MOA are you guys getting with you precision AR's?  </a>" /> t
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Posted: 5/5/2015 11:10:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agree. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A nice trigger will make it easier to be consistent. It's not going to magically make you shoot better though. 1 MOA is pretty good, especially with off the shelf ammunition. I think it's more likely your barrel is only going to be good with that ammunition to about 1MOA. Working through a ladder load and getting a nice trigger may help you squeeze it down to .5 or .75MOA. Agree. Ok i was hoping that barrel would shoot .75 MOA but I'm not to famliar with the standards. I know a douglas barrel compared to a WOA barrel will preform differently. Either way i am saving for a nice trigger. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 11:12:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless the trigger you are using is horrid I don't think it's going to make much of a difference in group size from a supported position. If you need to shoot standing, a good trigger will help. I'm a fan of the AR Gold trigger.
right, I just looked up that trigger. Its really nice and pricey
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Posted: 5/5/2015 11:17:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you say "groups" are you talking three shot groups, five shot groups, or ten shot groups? And how consistent are the groups? Anyone can sometimes have three shots fall within 1 inch even if the rifle and optic are not up to the task. This gets harder with five shot groups. Then consistency becomes the theme. Can you get those one MOA groups every time, or just some of the time with five shots? Ther true test is consistent ten shot groups. Show us some ten shot targets, say three of them, with that ammo and trigger and let us see how consistent they are. My guess is that the SSA-E will produce far more repeatable, consistently small groups than a milspec trigger. Otherwise, benchrest shooters would not be using triggers down in the single digit ounce range with no creep or over travel. Even if you are at the limits of your rifle, I would think that your consistency would be greatly improved with a lighter trigger with a very precise break. It just takes a lot of the variables in technique out of the equation or greatly reduces them. It's also the same thing with magnification. A high magnification scope with very good glass does not make your rifle more accurate. But, chances are that you will shoot much more consistent, tight groups at bench with a 24x scope with good glass and a thin target type reticle, than with a 4x scope with a thick reticle or with a red dot. The high magnification lets you be far more precise in lining up the shot, and in combination with the reticle can place your crosshairs within individual quadrants or less of the inner most circle of the bullseye of the target, or in individual squares of a scope target where one inch center square is quartered. Precise trigger control with a minimum of pressure and finger movement makes a difference. A one MOA rifle deserves a trigger that will let you use its accuracy consistently and repeatedly. Makes much sense, yes these are 4 shot groups. The trigger is not that great, but compared to my Spikes and Palmetto. there is definitely less or not creep. I will try what said with the 10 shot groups. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 12:21:30 AM EDT
[#15]
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time.
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Posted: 5/6/2015 12:29:07 AM EDT
[#16]
Ben, standard federal ammo is like 2 MOA ammo at best. If you are consistently shooting that you are something special.
When I first posted my groups years ago I got slapped down pretty hard. I just didn't understand what a actual group was. To shoot sub MOA groups consistently it takes quite a bit of work. I am quite happy with MOA groups with 223. I finally got to shoot sub MOA when I added a Grendel to the stable. 5 shot groups are the standard minimum that I shoot. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 12:32:37 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg I'm sorry but it is my turn to say I find this very doubtful. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 12:39:09 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sorry but it is my turn to say I find this very doubtful. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg I'm sorry but it is my turn to say I find this very doubtful. Yeah |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:05:39 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
will an after market trigger say like a geisselle trigger (SSA-E) improve the group to maybe 1/2 MOA? I currently have a STAG LPK in the lower. I ve only shot two groups so far with my recently built SPR with a WOA 18" barrel. ( i used CBC OTM 77gr 556) I need to shoot more groups to see if it does better. I shoot four shot groups, 3 are 1/2 MOA but the 4th is always out there. I post pics of a range report and my build later on tonight You've shot two groups of four shots each. That's such a worthless sample size it doesn't indicate anything. Shoot 10 groups of 10 shots. Yes, Geiselle triggers are the bee's knees. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 4:59:25 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg I call BS. Here's mine at 400 yds with a geissele sde and mk262 ammo. 
ETA the target is 12 inches wide. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 9:00:54 AM EDT
[#21]
This is a 100 yard target shot recently for load development. I do use a 6-24x50mm QD mounted target scope for these purposes, so I can see the holes without switching to my spotting scope. It also lets me be very precise in shot placement. The LaRue target squares are 1/2". The first four shots, numbered, were walking the experimental load to the target. After shot four I moved the turrets up one inch and right one inch and fired what I had left. There were 11 rounds in the magazine. The final seven shots were for group. That's all I had loaded. This is a hunting load in development using Barnes TSX 62 grain bullets. They are not target bullets. Ordinary CMMG 16" carbine 1:9 melonite barrel. It is free floated. I did not measure with calipers, but extreme spread is about one inch.
The trigger was a Geissele SSA-E. It helps with consistency. 
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Posted: 5/6/2015 11:17:45 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I call BS. Here's mine at 400 yds with a geissele sde and mk262 ammo. http://i.imgur.com/yopYtxG.jpg ETA the target is 12 inches wide. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg I call BS. Here's mine at 400 yds with a geissele sde and mk262 ammo. http://i.imgur.com/yopYtxG.jpg ETA the target is 12 inches wide.  |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 12:59:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I call BS. Here's mine at 400 yds with a geissele sde and mk262 ammo. http://i.imgur.com/yopYtxG.jpg ETA the target is 12 inches wide. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg I call BS. Here's mine at 400 yds with a geissele sde and mk262 ammo. http://i.imgur.com/yopYtxG.jpg ETA the target is 12 inches wide. You show a picture and I show a picture. The squares in mine are 1 inch. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 1:00:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that's nice shooting, brother! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg I call BS. Here's mine at 400 yds with a geissele sde and mk262 ammo. http://i.imgur.com/yopYtxG.jpg ETA the target is 12 inches wide. Thanks! ;) |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 1:21:42 PM EDT
[#25]
I've installed 9 Geissele SSA-E triggers in my 556 and 308 AR's. As well as 2 super SCAR triggers in my 17S and 16S. In every case it reduced my groups size some quite noticeably. One case I remember vividly which really surprised me was my Ruger SR556. With the factory trigger and tailored hand loads the best I could do shooting 5 shot 100 yard groups was ~1.25 moa. With the SSA-E the groups were reduced to 0.75 moa sometimes better. Before the switch I had just about given up on the SR556.
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Posted: 5/6/2015 1:35:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 1:45:25 PM EDT
[#27]
just my 2 cents.
Despite 3-4lbs not being a really light trigger I don't doubt that they add to consistency. As noted by a gentleman above using a high power scope with fine reticules definitely helps too, it makes it much easier to get consistent shots. One thing that many shooting with scopes overlook is that the reticule and background both have to be in focus to override parallax/distortion. As you start the day your length of pull (LOP) distance may be at one point and then may/will vary which can/will affect the distance of your eye from the eyepiece (eye-relief). Getting a consistent lock on your target with a repeatable eye-relief, and both cross-hairs/dot and target in focus at the same time is a must. Move your eye around the eyepiece because your eye may not be in center where you believe it to be. Zero your rifle with the best sight picture that you can achieve when you're fresh/rested because your zero won't have changed but your mechanics may have. Of course you'll also need a stable platform for repeatability. I use a bi-pod and with the center of gravity/weight of my rifle combined with my LOP I can get very stable sight pictures. The same applies to using iron sights, which can achieve very similar results to scope groups given the proper sight aperture (a smaller sized peep hole clarifies/focuses the image more sharply). The size/distance of the target within sight range makes little difference as long as it's distinguishable from the front sight post 'horizon'; i.e., __o__ is no harder to group on than _O_ with a calibrated/zero'd sight pair and a stable platform. A sight picture of __.__ is still doable whether close up or far away. :)
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:11:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ben, standard federal ammo is like 2 MOA ammo at best. If you are consistently shooting that you are something special. When I first posted my groups years ago I got slapped down pretty hard. I just didn't understand what a actual group was. To shoot sub MOA groups consistently it takes quite a bit of work. I am quite happy with MOA groups with 223. I finally got to shoot sub MOA when I added a Grendel to the stable. 5 shot groups are the standard minimum that I shoot. Yes i was mastaken i looked back and it was 2 MOA! i dont know why i said 1 MOA. Does .308 do better than .223? In other words is it easier to shoot sub MOA with 308 vs .223? There is much confusion on what a group is. At first i kept reading that people are shotting 3 shots. Now ive noticed people are shooting 10. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:19:49 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I call BS. Here's mine at 400 yds with a geissele sde and mk262 ammo. http://i.imgur.com/yopYtxG.jpg ETA the target is 12 inches wide. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg I call BS. Here's mine at 400 yds with a geissele sde and mk262 ammo. http://i.imgur.com/yopYtxG.jpg ETA the target is 12 inches wide. I want to try that, what magnification do you use just curious and what kind of barrel do you have? |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:19:56 PM EDT
[#30]
IMHO, your groups with CBC 77gr is the norm... some in a nice cluster... but always a flier or two.
So I would not base your decision on that specific ammo alone. I suggest you try some other 77gr ammo before you buy a "better" trigger. $ 250 bucks will buy a lot of 77gr ammo to try. And I try to shot 10 round groups... that gives a much better indication of your accuracy. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:27:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg ....ummmm... I only see about 40 rounds on that target. No offense intended, I just don't see 80. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:37:34 PM EDT
[#32]
IMHO....308 has the potential to shoot better groups only based on better BC's.
BUT, That leaves out a ton of variables.... shooter skill, barrel accuracy..etc. I also think in a overly simplistic viewpoint, a lighter trigger means less time to screw up that shot. In other words, it doesn't take as long to consistently pull the trigger... which means less time to wander slightly off target. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:40:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Ben, yes I have found .308 much easier to shoot tight groups with but that is comparing apples to oranges. In otherwords, you can't compare how they shoot.
Where I shoot gets a lot of wind and a gust will move my 52gr match bthp's more than a 168gr bullet of the same design. A good trigger, good barrel, good optics and practice will help get you there. I have also found handloading to make a huge difference in groups. Not all barrels like the same thing. My best AR absolutely loves the Hornady 52gr match for up to 200 yds. My bil's AR shoots 55 better and just scatters the 52's. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:42:28 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
....ummmm... I only see about 40 rounds on that target. No offense intended, I just don't see 80. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg ....ummmm... I only see about 40 rounds on that target. No offense intended, I just don't see 80. I think I counted 37 
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:44:08 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
....ummmm... I only see about 40 rounds on that target. No offense intended, I just don't see 80. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg ....ummmm... I only see about 40 rounds on that target. No offense intended, I just don't see 80. None taken.  I have pics of targets shot with iron sights, 4x, 3-9x, 20x, 24x and 36x scopes at 25, 50 and 100 yards and Colt 16" 1:7 55gr .223, Colt 20" & PSA 16" 1:10 125gr 7.62x39 and Browning 24" .30-06 all with the same/similar results. Have been shooting the MFS .223 stuff pretty well, but also get great results with AE223.
We have a 200 yard setup and 400-600 yard too, but I've only shot the above ranges since I started back. Will be getting a budget AR10 in sometime late next week and will set it out to 200. Last I shot .308 the Federal match 168gr was also excellent. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:44:32 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think I counted 37
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg ....ummmm... I only see about 40 rounds on that target. No offense intended, I just don't see 80. I think I counted 37
...or 38... |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:48:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...or 38... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg ....ummmm... I only see about 40 rounds on that target. No offense intended, I just don't see 80. I think I counted 37
...or 38... I forgot to set up the rolling black screen...
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:49:42 PM EDT
[#38]
CBC 77 ammo is better classified as "match-like" ammo. Better ammo will get you better results.
Try Black Hills, Federal Gold Medal Match or Hornady match to see how they work. I handload and they results are usually half the size of your groups when using my SS match barrels. Without a tape measure in your picture you look closer to 1.25". Surprisingly 52/53 grain Sierra Match Kings give me the best groups at 100 yards, even from 1/7 twist barrels. Try those. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 3:40:01 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that's nice shooting, brother! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg I call BS. Here's mine at 400 yds with a geissele sde and mk262 ammo. http://i.imgur.com/yopYtxG.jpg ETA the target is 12 inches wide. Yeah I think he was talking to me. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 6:14:50 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryC'mon OP, join in the fun here. |
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Posted: 5/7/2015 12:12:00 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
C'mon OP, join in the fun here. Quote HistoryQuoted:
C'mon OP, join in the fun here. Some of those groups are 
That is cool, now that have a semi precision build I'll join in that  probably do it this weekend !
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Posted: 5/9/2015 6:34:14 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg I'm sorry but it is my turn to say I find this very doubtful. Yeah Because of the ammo? I've shot a couple thousand rounds of that stuff. It's remarkably accurate. |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 9:03:01 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
will an after market trigger say like a geisselle trigger (SSA-E) improve the group to maybe 1/2 MOA? I currently have a STAG LPK in the lower. I ve only shot two groups so far with my recently built SPR with a WOA 18" barrel. ( i used CBC OTM 77gr 556) I need to shoot more groups to see if it does better. I shoot four shot groups, 3 are 1/2 MOA but the 4th is always out there. I post pics of a range report and my build later on tonight |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 11:03:44 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you say "groups" are you talking three shot groups, five shot groups, or ten shot groups? And how consistent are the groups? Anyone can sometimes have three shots fall within 1 inch even if the rifle and optic are not up to the task. This gets harder with five shot groups. Then consistency becomes the theme. Can you get those one MOA groups every time, or just some of the time with five shots? Ther true test is consistent ten shot groups. Show us some ten shot targets, say three of them, with that ammo and trigger and let us see how consistent they are. My guess is that the SSA-E will produce far more repeatable, consistently small groups than a milspec trigger. Otherwise, benchrest shooters would not be using triggers down in the single digit ounce range with no creep or over travel. Even if you are at the limits of your rifle, I would think that your consistency would be greatly improved with a lighter trigger with a very precise break. It just takes a lot of the variables in technique out of the equation or greatly reduces them. It's also the same thing with magnification. A high magnification scope with very good glass does not make your rifle more accurate. But, chances are that you will shoot much more consistent, tight groups at bench with a 24x scope with good glass and a thin target type reticle, than with a 4x scope with a thick reticle or with a red dot. The high magnification lets you be far more precise in lining up the shot, and in combination with the reticle can place your crosshairs within individual quadrants or less of the inner most circle of the bullseye of the target, or in individual squares of a scope target where one inch center square is quartered. Precise trigger control with a minimum of pressure and finger movement makes a difference. A one MOA rifle deserves a trigger that will let you use its accuracy consistently and repeatedly. Excellent advice here. |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 11:21:54 AM EDT
[#45]
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Because of the ammo? I've shot a couple thousand rounds of that stuff. It's remarkably accurate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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80 rounds of MFS 55gr FMJ @ 100 yards. No flyers, just sighting in the scope for the first time. https://home.comcast.net/~atlas000/mfs223.jpg I'm sorry but it is my turn to say I find this very doubtful. Yeah Because of the ammo? I've shot a couple thousand rounds of that stuff. It's remarkably accurate. I think it plays a big part. Between rifles I've shot several hundred rounds of it and not one malfunction. It's good to not have to wonder about what's going to happen next when it comes to ammo
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Posted: 5/10/2015 12:05:21 PM EDT
[#46]
You've shot two groups of four shots each. That's such a worthless sample size it doesn't indicate anything. Shoot 10 groups of 10 shots. Yup. "groups" of 3 or 4 are for sighting in, not accuracy claims. 5 shots is the bare minimum, 10 is better. And a "Flier" is not the one hole in each group that sits furthest away; a true flier is a round that was very obviously way outside the norm. If you shoot 9 groups of 10 that are 1.3 MOA average, but the tenth group has a single hole 2" from the rest, that round was a flier. |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 2:13:18 PM EDT
[#47]
I had a DD Mil-Spec trigger and decided to pick up an Geissele SSA to see what all the hype as about. After I installed it, holy crap, I never knew how shitty my Mil-Spec trigger was! The next day I ordered another for my other rifle.
If you haven't tried one yet, I highly recommend a nice trigger like the Geissele SSA. |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 3:35:02 PM EDT
[#48]
I don't think that the RIFLE will inherently become more precise with a better trigger. A SHOOTER will be more accurate as a result of the better trigger. the difference being if you bolted the rifle into a completely immobile vise and lined up the target, loaded and fired 10 rounds slowly using a 12 lb trigger(rifle cant move so doesn't matter), the group would be the best that the rifle would ever produce with that ammo/distance combination. The SHOOTER will be influenced by the trigger and allow the SHOOTER to shoot better the actual bullet going down the barrel likely wont be effected. but the shooter trembling as they squeeze a 12 lb trigger will cause issues.
And dude 4 shot groups.... I've got a buddy who shot a 4 shot group using a mosin and bulk spam can ammo that was 2 inches at 100 yards. It was the ONLY 2 inch group he ever shot, but he did a lot of shooting that day.
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Posted: 5/10/2015 4:09:52 PM EDT
[#49]
10 shot groups have some statistical significance. A series of 10 shot groups starts to show a strong indication.
4 shot groups where you talk about 3 in a "group" and a flyer are a joke. If you fired the other six to make 10, the groups would likely be 2.5 times the size of the four shots. Accuracy with an AR starts somewhere in the vicinity of a Rock River Predator Pursuit off a bipod with a good scope or a Rock River National Match Rifle A4 with the handle removed and a good scope on it using the float tube handguard system. With FederalGMMatch 69 at 100 yards on a low wind day, those combinations will make you sub MOA 10 shot groups. A Remington M700PSS with a good scope will also be at or just under a MOA off a bipod with the FGMM69. Very few other off the shelf rifles will do as well. Your run of the mill for about 10 brands of 55FMJ ammo will make 2-4MOA groups from the same rifles. Both Rocks and the PSS have good triggers. Rocks NM 4.5# and the Remington how you set it. In a plain rifle with FMJ your trigger is the least of your problems. (As a side note, MOA groups centered on the target as various ranges without having to shoot sighters and then reset your sight settings is the second goal. This is done by shooting and knowing your data for (a) or maybe (2) loads at different distances for your rifle.) |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 4:42:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Muscle is the enemy of good marksmanship. The more muscle you have in your position, the harder it is to maintain stability and consistency. That is why rifles are designed to be actuated by the index finger -- you want the least muscle possible to release the hammer, and your index finger contains the muscle that you have the finest control over. A lighter trigger just takes this to even more of an extreme. It obviously doesn't make the rifle any more mechanically accurate, but it certainly helps reduce user error.
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