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Posted: 3/28/2015 3:08:54 PM EDT
Just wondering why it isn't more prevalent for 14.5" barrels to have some of the more popular muzzle devices pinned/welded to get it to over 16".
For example... a KAC 5.56 MAMS is $300... getting it pinned and welded to a 14.5" barrel is only $100 + gunsmithing fees extra.
Seems like a win/win for me... am I overlooking something? I don't even imagine resale value would be hurt.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 3:12:02 PM EDT
[#1]
For me I have no interest in a pin weld.  I'dd do an SBR for the extra $200 even for a 14.5"  I want the ability to easily take my gun apart.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 3:21:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Some of us have no choice but to have a muzzle device perm attached to our barrels.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 4:30:24 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
For me I have no interest in a pin weld.  I'dd do an SBR for the extra $200 even for a 14.5"  I want the ability to easily take my gun apart.
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Does a pinned/welded muzzle device make it harder to clean your gun? I rarely have to take off mine on my rifles to get a cleaning done unless it's a precision rifle.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 4:34:41 PM EDT
[#4]
If you can't SBR, and really want a 14.5" barrel, you have to go pin/weld.  I live in Texas and we don't have stupid "no NFA" laws like that.  So screw the "you can't have that scary thing" idiots.  I'm SBRd.

Honestly, I'd rather go to the expense and trouble of making a registered SBR than pin/weld, but I have options...
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 5:01:21 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:


Does a pinned/welded muzzle device make it harder to clean your gun? I rarely have to take off mine on my rifles to get a cleaning done unless it's a precision rifle.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
For me I have no interest in a pin weld.  I'dd do an SBR for the extra $200 even for a 14.5"  I want the ability to easily take my gun apart.


Does a pinned/welded muzzle device make it harder to clean your gun? I rarely have to take off mine on my rifles to get a cleaning done unless it's a precision rifle.


He's talking about being able to take it apart to be able to remove the gas block and barrel nut. So he's not limited to one setup. The same would probably apply to most who are against it.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 6:07:44 PM EDT
[#6]

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He's talking about being able to take it apart to be able to remove the gas block and barrel nut. So he's not limited to one setup. The same would probably apply to most who are against it.
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Quoted:


Quoted:

For me I have no interest in a pin weld.  I'dd do an SBR for the extra $200 even for a 14.5"  I want the ability to easily take my gun apart.




Does a pinned/welded muzzle device make it harder to clean your gun? I rarely have to take off mine on my rifles to get a cleaning done unless it's a precision rifle.




He's talking about being able to take it apart to be able to remove the gas block and barrel nut. So he's not limited to one setup. The same would probably apply to most who are against it.




 
Yep.  For the most part you are stuck with that configuration.  That is not something I am a fan of personally.  A lot of people it doesn't bother.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 6:40:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Why would I want to be married to my barrel nut / gas block / flash hider?  Screw that (no pun intended), I'll take my barrel threads.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 6:54:22 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
Some of us have no choice but to have a muzzle device perm attached to our barrels.
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This. I have a few 14.5s and as long as you choose the right muzzle device for you I don't see a big issue.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 7:00:10 PM EDT
[#9]
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Why would I want to be married to my barrel nut / gas block / flash hider?  Screw that (no pun intended), I'll take my barrel threads.
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You're lucky.  In ban states like mine threads are illegal regardless of barrel length.  So it's either non-threaded or pinned and welded.  

OP, once you weld it you're pretty much stuck with whatever rail system you chose.  Your barrel nut won't slide over your gas block. So if you choose that route, think carefully.  


Link Posted: 3/28/2015 7:01:25 PM EDT
[#10]
Most people don't want to get tied down to one particular setup. Same with the crowd who say they'll never get married because they don't want to be tied down, ya?

Frankly, the $40(It's nowhere near a Benjamin if you're close to a competent 'smith. Closer to $60 if you have to ship your upper to said competent 'smith) is worth not having the headache associated with going through the NFA BS for a 14.5" barrel. If I'm going to SBR something, it will be for a shorter barrel, not because I specifically want that 14.5.

It's also an increase in cost for no real gain. Lopping off an inch and a half doesn't change the balance of a rifle too much,(Though it is noticeable) nor does it truly enhance the reliability of a carbine-length gas system. Honestly, going with the 14.5" is more for aesthetics and personal preference than anything else.("Second type of cool," as it were) If the M4 carbine didn't have a 14.5" barrel, it wouldn't be as popular as it is right now.

Personally, I don't mind a pinned M/D because I know that I'm not going to be changing my muzzle device after I've set everything up. Also, I don't pin M/D's that cost more than $80. Less disconcerting if I have to dremel the weld and remove it later on for whatever reason.

Pro tip; before you pin any kind of muzzle device, test said M/D on a longer barrel to find out how bad the concussion and flash are. This will, quite literally, save you some headaches if you get something you don't like.

ETA: Why does everyone act like a pinned M/D is irreversible? It aren't that hard to remove. We master engrish speaky-thing, tool are easy.

...And now I feel dirty. Like I just got out of 4Chan.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 7:09:48 PM EDT
[#11]
This is just a thought, but if a manufacture made a muzzle device that was just under 0.750" in diameter, the gas block, and barrel nut would slide off after a pin and weld.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 7:11:34 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
This is just a thought, but if a manufacture made a muzzle device that was just under 0.750" in diameter, the gas block, and barrel nut would slide off after a pin and weld.
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There is such a beast, I forget the name of the manufacturer.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 7:31:16 PM EDT
[#13]
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There is such a beast, I forget the name of the manufacturer.
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This is just a thought, but if a manufacture made a muzzle device that was just under 0.750" in diameter, the gas block, and barrel nut would slide off after a pin and weld.


There is such a beast, I forget the name of the manufacturer.


Voodoo Innovations, their Manimal Flash Hider will permit a .750" gas block to fit over.  They even sell a 14.5 barrel with the flash hider already pinned and welded.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 9:15:51 PM EDT
[#14]
As others have said, they don't want to be stuck to the one setup and may want to change things out.

I have a stamped lower so its a non issue for me but I still have a couple of pin and welded ones in my parts bin due to not liking the muzzle devices on them or the gas block/fsb.

Link Posted: 3/28/2015 10:20:44 PM EDT
[#15]
You don't have to weld fully around the comp.  Where I am from the law states that you just have to make it not easily removable.  A single spot weld on the bottom making it to where you can't just take a wrench and unthread it.  This way if you need to you can simply file the weld off and change it out.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 10:39:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Because a tax stamp is only a little more expensive and exponentially more useful.
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 10:43:49 PM EDT
[#17]
It's nice to have the option to change muzzle devices......
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 12:06:44 AM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:


He's talking about being able to take it apart to be able to remove the gas block and barrel nut. So he's not limited to one setup. The same would probably apply to most who are against it.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
For me I have no interest in a pin weld.  I'dd do an SBR for the extra $200 even for a 14.5"  I want the ability to easily take my gun apart.


Does a pinned/welded muzzle device make it harder to clean your gun? I rarely have to take off mine on my rifles to get a cleaning done unless it's a precision rifle.


He's talking about being able to take it apart to be able to remove the gas block and barrel nut. So he's not limited to one setup. The same would probably apply to most who are against it.


Yeah, your pretty much stuck with the FSB being on the barrel unless its a set screw or clamp type. But you certainly can remove the barrel on the upper with a standard (half circle 3 prong) armorers wrench with perm pinned muzzle devices. I've done it 10 times for me, friends, family, etc... I like KISS set ups for 90% of my rifles so a standard pinned FSB is my drug of choice on barrels and it's never a problem. Once I decide on a muzzle device it stays on the barrel for the life of it so thats not a problem for me either. I like Vortex and Phantom flash hiders the best...

OP, all but one of my rifles are 14.5 inches with perm attached muzzle devices save a Recce style rifle. I don't want to have to register anything, ever! So perm pinned short barrels are more popular than you originally thought...
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 12:32:06 AM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:
You don't have to weld fully around the comp.  Where I am from the law states that you just have to make it not easily removable.  A single spot weld on the bottom making it to where you can't just take a wrench and unthread it.  This way if you need to you can simply file the weld off and change it out.
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Um... no.  Thank you for coming into this thread Mr. ATF man.

Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over.

https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf


On topic though, it is probably added expense that most people won't bother with.  A lot of shops do have a custom option to do it, but as a standard thing I can't see it taking off as a big thing.  

Me personally, on my 14.5" builds, I've just decided to build with a standard barrel nut and low profile gas block.  That way I still have a wide choice in rails.  I'll eventually get around to making a SBR though.
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 12:37:59 AM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:
You don't have to weld fully around the comp.  Where I am from the law states that you just have to make it not easily removable.  A single spot weld on the bottom making it to where you can't just take a wrench and unthread it.  This way if you need to you can simply file the weld off and change it out.
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Where you are from?


READ UP
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 8:10:03 AM EDT
[#21]
Not everybody sees a 14.5" pinned and welded as any advantage. The ballistics are incrementally affected and a 16" with flash hider is only 1 1/2" longer. No extra expense at all.

If someone wants short it can be done a lot less expensively with a 10.5" AR pistol, no stamps and fees. It can be far less restricted than an SBR. Review your specific situation, in can vary state by state.  In MO pistols are a better solution than an SBR and considerably cheaper with no tax, trust, fees, permits to transport across state lines, etc. A pistol can be used in more hunting seasons than a rifle, transported loaded, and FWIW, even Open Carried. I wouldn't, but a SBR might be even less welcome once the legal fog clears up.

Same answers, a 14.5 pinned doesn't offer much for a lot of expense and hassle, a SBR isn't always a better solution and it will cost more money. Blanket answers can't be made for everyone, state and local laws have a lot of impact.
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 8:36:47 AM EDT
[#22]
Well, I am going to add my two cents worth.

Whenever I make a decision to build and AR and use a 14.5" barrel, I pre-determine which muzzle device I am going to have pinned/welded. The AR I build with this barrel is a dedicated build and there will be no need to remove the muzzle device. My theory is to build it once. My very personally owned first AR (2004) was modified a few times before I finally had it where I wanted it. Since then, I have learned. I carefully plan every AR build I do. I determine the purpose and direction I want to go before I make any purchases. It is all about planning. If you are uncertain about what you want, then hold off until you are certain. If you are looking at buying a barrel that has a fixed FSB and a 14.5" barrel with a pinned/welded muzzle device, you need to determine if that is the configuration you are going to stay with. If not, do not buy it. For a manufacturer or retailer to sell barrels that have muzzle devices that are pre-pinned/welded, they are making a bold decision. You have to remember, a 14.5" barrel without a muzzle device is subject to NFA regulations. This is why a few will sell these barrels with a pinned/welded muzzle device attached. It is no longer a NFA subjected item. All of this said, I have several ARs with 14.5" barrel with pinned/welded muzzle devices and they stay exactly that way. For those who SBR for a 14.5" barrel w/o a pinned/welded muzzle device, more power to you. Having a trust and the money to do it is great.
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 9:01:34 AM EDT
[#23]
Folks, you do all realize that with ONE registered SBR lower, you can have as many different uppers on that lower as you want.  You do all realize that, right?  So ONE stamp gets me a 10.5" 9mm gun, an 8" gun in 300 Blackout, and oh by the way my (semiauto) M4.  There's nothing keeping you from changing the lower's configuration, either; this stock, that stock, different triggers, etc.  The options are almost endless.
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 9:24:35 AM EDT
[#24]
I do pin and welds for some customers. I make it very clear that changing ones mind about handguards,  wanting a new Cerakote job, etc etc, means most likely losing the muzzle device, and paying someone to redo it or do a new one, to save an inch.
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 9:28:26 AM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:
You don't have to weld fully around the comp.  Where I am from the law states that you just have to make it not easily removable.  A single spot weld on the bottom making it to where you can't just take a wrench and unthread it.  This way if you need to you can simply file the weld off and change it out.
View Quote

Sorry, you live in the US,  so that's a no go.
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 10:12:38 AM EDT
[#26]
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Voodoo Innovations, their Manimal Flash Hider will permit a .750" gas block to fit over.  They even sell a 14.5 barrel with the flash hider already pinned and welded.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This is just a thought, but if a manufacture made a muzzle device that was just under 0.750" in diameter, the gas block, and barrel nut would slide off after a pin and weld.


There is such a beast, I forget the name of the manufacturer.


Voodoo Innovations, their Manimal Flash Hider will permit a .750" gas block to fit over.  They even sell a 14.5 barrel with the flash hider already pinned and welded.


Yup, they do indeed make a barrel with it already installed, just built one myself and am helping a buddy build his with it too...MSRP is $325, but found it here for $190.

It may be nice to be able to switch muzzle devices, but I'd rather just use a Manimal than do NFA paperwork (and pay a fee), and do more paperwork if I want to take it out of state.
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 11:09:58 AM EDT
[#27]
Zero interest in any pin/weld here.  Never had one, never will.  16" or SBR.
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 11:24:03 AM EDT
[#28]
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Folks, you do all realize that with ONE registered SBR lower, you can have as many different uppers on that lower as you want.  You do all realize that, right?  So ONE stamp gets me a 10.5" 9mm gun, an 8" gun in 300 Blackout, and oh by the way my (semiauto) M4.  There's nothing keeping you from changing the lower's configuration, either; this stock, that stock, different triggers, etc.  The options are almost endless.
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Getting a tax stamp in ban states is often impossible since many CLEO's are gun grabbers and won't sign off.
The trust route is the only method, and even that's under attack now.



Link Posted: 3/29/2015 12:15:49 PM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:


Getting a tax stamp in ban states is often impossible since many CLEO's are gun grabbers and won't sign off.
The trust route is the only method, and even that's under attack now.



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Quoted:
Quoted:
Folks, you do all realize that with ONE registered SBR lower, you can have as many different uppers on that lower as you want.  You do all realize that, right?  So ONE stamp gets me a 10.5" 9mm gun, an 8" gun in 300 Blackout, and oh by the way my (semiauto) M4.  There's nothing keeping you from changing the lower's configuration, either; this stock, that stock, different triggers, etc.  The options are almost endless.


Getting a tax stamp in ban states is often impossible since many CLEO's are gun grabbers and won't sign off.
The trust route is the only method, and even that's under attack now.




Yes, certainly.  But there are lots of folks chiming in on this thread from non-ban states.  

And the trust thing isn't as much "under attack" as heading toward being more formal; unlike a corporation with publicly named principles, there's almost zero accountability in trusts.  Having one person identified as the primary contact ain't that bad a thing.  The only snag is how they word the CLEO bit.  With a C&R FFL application you just "notify" the CLEO by sending a copy to their office, and I think this is far more in keeping with the original intent of the law - and the wording of both the form and the regulation implementing it.
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