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Posted: 1/22/2015 1:42:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Muad]
Saw this while visiting their booth. They are dubbing it the BFS (Binary Firing System). It's currently awaiting BATFE approval. The concept sounds interesting. In the third position, it fires a round when the trigger is pulled, then another when it is released forward to reset. No claimed cyclic rates or anything, and that's all the details I have right now.
What say ye? Update 12/27/2015: BFS FAQ and technical summary: Will the BFS work with 9mm uppers? Yes, though given the amount of mass in the bolt and buffer some tuning to the rifle may be required. But it has been done by at least 1 Arfcommer in this thread. Will the BFS work with my .22 kit/upper? Yes, but it requires permanent modification to your .22 bolt, as it's factory configuration cocks the hammer too far, and actuates the backup disconnector. Why does the rifle need tuning, doesn't the trigger work? Should I wait for bugs to be worked out? There are no bugs in the trigger. The trigger works exactly as advertised. However, because it operates independently of the bolt carrier, your finger and outrun your gun. Our testing so far has shown that a total reciprocating mass of approximately 11 oz allows the rifle to operate at a cyclic rate high enough to prevent out running the gun. Franklin Armory has also suggested opening the gas port as an alternative to using lightweight carriers or buffers. If lighter is better, why not take all the weights out of the buffer? Reducing buffer weight to the extreme allows the bolt carrier to bounce too far when going into battery, resulting in light strikes. What is a backup disconnector? How does it work? Why can't I "ride the reset" and get this thing to work? Watch this for an explanation There are 2 types of malfunctions that can occur when using the trigger. Inadvertent actuation of the backup disconnector is one. That is also the easiest to prevent. You simply need to make sure that on the pull stroke, you pull the trigger past the point of releasing the hammer, and take up all of the over travel. This moves the backup disconnector out of the path of the hammer. The second malfunction is a light primer strike, caused by hammer follow or bolt bounce. This occurs when your rifle is not capable of the same cyclic rate as your finger, or because your carrier bounces too far when going into battery. To speed up your rifle, you have 3 options: enlarge your gas port, reduce the mass of the system with lightweight components, or use a heavier buffer spring, or a combination of all three. Currently it appears 11 oz total mass for BCG and buffer works well with a normal gas configuration. What about the possibility of a 0-45-90 selector? Given the amount of material being removed to house multiple disconnectors, FA has stated this is not possible to do. What lowers will this fit? The trigger housing is machined to a maximum material condition meaning that slight variations in the lower on the small side will cause issues with fit. There are a wild variety of lowers this trigger drops right into, and some it does not, some even from the same manufacturer. I think to say "because it fit mine it will fit yours" is foolhardy. Generally, a minor amount of material removal from either the FCG pocket of your lower or the trigger housing is all that will be required to get fitment. In some cases, shimming of the trigger housing in a loose fitting lower is recommended by FA. The trigger housing is 0.681-0.682 wide. Most lowers have 0.685 wide pockets, however a slight taper to the pocket can cause binding. What do you need to help prevent hammer follow ? In most cases, running a lightweight carrier with carbine buffer and a SpringCo Red or Orange extra power buffer spring will give you a pretty reliable setup. Most have seen great success with this combination. Videos posted from ARFCOMMERS using the BFS: http://youtu.be/1hKUZBd8npo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMp3PC0diwI&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-XbcP6AbD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP-bygySVlY http://vid788.photobucket.com/albums/yy166/jimmys120/FC3EF678-A038-4E4F-AF48-FA3BBEEC31B7_zpsy35lxpie.mp4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQNUGR0QAdU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipiGtsZUxko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQV15-wmrBY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhffGuJ4iY8&feature=youtu.be http://vid261.photobucket.com/albums/ii65/turtlesniper/Mobile%20Uploads/trim.EE85A5F2-4244-4FC1-837D-4D39EE0BD5E3.mp4 http://vid261.photobucket.com/albums/ii65/turtlesniper/Mobile%20Uploads/trim.3D404ABB-7ABA-4AAA-964E-0BD9C72F0BD0.mp4 http://vid261.photobucket.com/albums/ii65/turtlesniper/Mobile%20Uploads/trim.0DDDE443-FABB-4DB9-91F5-4CDA354790E8.mp4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcOciQ9IXvo&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFiD8I3JP_s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu9-U9nVB9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atUxkjoBS5Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVJHVqgXRVI https://youtu.be/h-9VoW7DEYg https://youtu.be/Gftg8t3ltDw https://youtu.be/530rFIAzqP4 https://youtu.be/ONmDCStbgqU https://youtu.be/OAe1dqg1yeg https://youtu.be/t9O5NAHCp7Y http://vid261.photobucket.com/albums/ii65/turtlesniper/Mobile%20Uploads/trim.036F7133-0144-4260-BEDD-DF9748905425.mp4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=3cBkbYdT3og https://youtu.be/NaumdeRsQns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emNr5PmagDc BFS maintenance guide: IF YOU HAVEN'T YET, GREASE THIS CAM FOLLOWER PIN |
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"One is a Colt, the other is not. Colt has always been known for quality where it counts, not for its level of fit and finish. " - Stickman
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Originally Posted By Muad:
Saw this while visiting their booth. They are dubbing it the BFS (Binary Firing System). It's currently awaiting BATFE approval. The concept sounds interesting. In the third position, it fires a round when the trigger is pulled, then another when it is released forward to reset. No claimed cyclic rates or anything, and that's all the details I have right now. http://ar15hunter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Franklin-Armory-BFS-trigger-1.jpg What say ye? View Quote Ye say id like to try one out. I feel like there would be some major getting used to with it firing on pull and release, but should be twice the ROF as semi so i'll give one a whirl if theyre affordable |
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In the absence of a plan, move toward the sound of gunfire and kill everything.
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Cool concept....my prediction...If the second shot is fired by releasing the trigger from the first pull, this will die a quick death at the tech branch.
Wes |
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Originally Posted By Wangstang: Cool concept....my prediction...If the second shot is fired by releasing the trigger from the first pull, this will die a quick death at the tech branch. Wes View Quote This is what I was thinking. However, their engineer said something about another firearm that had a similar design that was approved. Something on a M14 or Mini 14. It was loud, and I didn't hear him clearly, and I am not familiar with what he was referring to.
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"One is a Colt, the other is not. Colt has always been known for quality where it counts, not for its level of fit and finish. " - Stickman
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*fires more than one shot per trigger pull*
"Hurrdurr, isa masheengun!" I doubt it gets approved. |
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"Things that you rely your life & or livelihood on deserve respect. I mean, I wouldn't slam my dick in a door just because I wanted to beat it..." - jmreagan
FNASCAR FNFL |
Originally Posted By Wangstang:
Cool concept....my prediction...If the second shot is fired by releasing the trigger from the first pull, this will die a quick death at the tech branch. Wes View Quote That would be my guess as well. I actually had it happen to me with my SP1 ~35 yrs ago. The gun started shooting "funny." After about the third shot I started holding the trigger back until recoil was all done. BAM!! As I released it. So I tried it a couple more times and the decided I'd better find out what was wrong before I went to jail. It was either the hammer pin or the trigger pin had worked it's way out of the side of the receiver. Pushed it back in and was good to go again. |
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Drugs kicked in now, need sleep, radiation tastes funny at 7 am every day... a bit like victory. - Ginger
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The law states "one shot per function of the trigger", the pull is one function and the release is another function. Most likely this will get approved.
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Originally Posted By coltshorty14:
The law states "one shot per function of the trigger", the pull is one function and the release is another function. Most likely this will get approved. View Quote This, we had a thread about this very trigger (or one very similar to it) a while back. Statutes/Laws were posted as well as previous ATF opinions. This thing will most likely get approved. |
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"Adding a piston to an AR is like nailing more legs to a dog and calling it an octopus." - Chapman
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Training and muscle memory what it is, this sounds dangerous as all h*ll. Releasing a trigger to fire off a round ? What could go wrong ?
If I want a fast trigger I'll get an S3G or similar. |
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I strive to be the man my dog thinks I am.
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It's a joke. It's all a joke. Mother, forgive me.
WA, USA
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The unbannable retread #1 on NorCal_LEOs Most Wanted
Mental gymnastics Gold Medalist right here folks. - mototard Honorary Black Person - conservativeblkfem |
my old paintball gun could do this. With a double trigger, it was pretty fast. this aint gonna pass.
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something like this was posted here a while ago and somebody about trap/skeet guns using this kind of set up iirc
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Duct tape is silver, silence is golden
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Staple in a Mini, wut?
I won't get one, even if it was approved, simply because I can't afford to burn ammo 2x as fast. I can kinda see the appeal, though. |
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View Quote If there is a ruling/approval I'm sure the ATF will get so many follow up letters that they will reverse their ruling just like shouldering the sig brace. BTW, someone should tell the guy in the video it isn't a good idea to record and post any illegal/felonious activity such as shouldering a sig brace. |
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Originally Posted By meijerclassics:
If there is a ruling/approval I'm sure the ATF will get so many follow up letters that they will reverse their ruling just like shouldering the sig brace. BTW, someone should tell the guy in the video it isn't a good idea to record and post any illegal/felonious activity such as shouldering a sig brace. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By meijerclassics:
If there is a ruling/approval I'm sure the ATF will get so many follow up letters that they will reverse their ruling just like shouldering the sig brace. BTW, someone should tell the guy in the video it isn't a good idea to record and post any illegal/felonious activity such as shouldering a sig brace. Video answered my one question about being able to decline the fire on release after pulling the trigger. I'm glad to see that you can. If it's approved I'll buy one. |
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Am who I am. Deal
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: Here is the letter on the mini-14 trigger. I posted up how you could modify a 3rd burst trigger group to do this in the last thread. It looks like they have made some improvements over the basic design I had. View Quote That "opinion" letter really doesn't mean a damn thing though. Look at the SIG Braces. All those letters went out CLEARLY stating that shouldering an AR pistol with a SIG Brace install on it does NOT change the classification of the gun to make it an SBR and that shouldering it would be 100% legal. As soon as I saw those braces and those letters I thought to myself, "yeah this isn't going to last long at all". This is going to be an Akins Accelerator debacle ALL OVER AGAIN! Now to be honest it I had just started to think hmm maybe these will last, the ATF hasn't reserved there decision yet. I was about to build an MK18 using one as a matter of fact. Then SHOTSHOW 2015 rolled around, the ATF knew a bunch of companies were going to market new SIG style Braces, guns that used them etc and BOOM the hammer got dropped. What they approve today will be reversed tomorrow when they "catch on" and everyone starts buying them. I know SIG is currently suing the ATF but seriously, come on, really? How many "YEARS" is that going to take? Point being if the ATF want's something off the market, it will happen no matter how they have to bend the rules to get it done and they have unlimited resources to fit it out in court. If this gets approved it will get reversed down the road. I really just want to see Geissele release a 3 position SSA/S3GD trigger. Something I know the ATF won't come after. |
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At the same time the ATF can't arbitrarily change their opinion as it suits their whims without a logical technical explanation. Their opinions and rulings ultimately need to be upheld by Congress, and historically manufacturers affected have sued in such cases. For the rest of us we just have to watch our own butts.
On the trigger, it's a cool concept, but not a whole lot of an advantage over doing a quick double tap with any decent conventional trigger. |
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Need to see Jerry Miculek do a side by side with normal trigger before I form any hard opinions. If he can make it shoot like an mg42, then I could maybe get M3 (greasegun) like rof. No practical value, could be fun with a .22 upper and tracers
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It's easy to get a trigger that will do this. Just send a good-quality mil-spec trigger to that Springfield guy.
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20 January, 2015
The day we got him back. |
I like the idea and hope it becomes available. I hope the guy in the video has a tax stamp for his Sig brace, or he will be getting some ATF loving.
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Ignorance is not a point of view.
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Amazing trigger. Makes double tap a thing of the past. I too will pick on up if they get approval.
Even though the mini-14 got approved i would think the ATF would consider that multiple rounds being fired with one trigger pull and consider it full auto, i mean its basically a two round burst. |
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Originally Posted By Spartikis: Amazing trigger. Makes double tap a thing of the past. I too will pick on up if they get approval. Even though the mini-14 got approved i would think the ATF would consider that multiple rounds being fired with one trigger pull and consider it full auto, i mean its basically a two round burst. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
It meets the letter of the law as two functions happen per pull. This is especially apparent because you can turn off the second shot at any time with the safety. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By Spartikis:
Amazing trigger. Makes double tap a thing of the past. I too will pick on up if they get approval. Even though the mini-14 got approved i would think the ATF would consider that multiple rounds being fired with one trigger pull and consider it full auto, i mean its basically a two round burst. Fair enough. I wonder how the rate of fire compares to a full auto. Obviously only 2 rounds being fired but i wonder how much time is in between the rounds, seems like it would be a bit slower since their would be some mechanical delay between the trigger being pulled and the trigger being released. |
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What if there were two triggers???????? Writing in my patent book...........BRB.
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Ignorance is not a point of view.
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Originally Posted By Spartikis: Fair enough. I wonder how the rate of fire compares to a full auto. Obviously only 2 rounds being fired but i wonder how much time is in between the rounds, seems like it would be a bit slower since their would be some mechanical delay between the trigger being pulled and the trigger being released. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Spartikis: Originally Posted By jaqufrost: Originally Posted By Spartikis: Amazing trigger. Makes double tap a thing of the past. I too will pick on up if they get approval. Even though the mini-14 got approved i would think the ATF would consider that multiple rounds being fired with one trigger pull and consider it full auto, i mean its basically a two round burst. Fair enough. I wonder how the rate of fire compares to a full auto. Obviously only 2 rounds being fired but i wonder how much time is in between the rounds, seems like it would be a bit slower since their would be some mechanical delay between the trigger being pulled and the trigger being released. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/655109_BumpSAW_Bump_IAR_Picture_Video_and_theoretical_discussion_thread_.html It appears that Franklin Armory has addressed some of the timing control issues. I haven't had one in my hands yet, to give it a good inspection, but if you look at the top they have added a few pieces that look to keep the hammer from being dropped too early. Depending on what type of AR you have will determine your max rate of fire. A traditional M16 will cycle in the 650-700RPM range, that is as fast as the bolt closes and pretty much as early as it can go off. Since the average person can probably pull a traditional trigger at roughly 400rpm, you can expect to effectively double that ~800rpm with the new trigger. This would lead to hammer follow on a traditional M16 but be perfectly fine on an M4 that routinely cycles at 900rpm. Hopefully the timing control implemented by Franklin Armory will keep it from having hammer follow issues. |
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I'm more wondering about that vertical grip...
I know they can be put on if the length is over a certain amount but that sucker looks shorter than the other one's I've seen. |
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Originally Posted By GrantS: I'm more wondering about that vertical grip... I know they can be put on if the length is over a certain amount but that sucker looks shorter than the other one's I've seen. View Quote FWIW: There is a good chance that is a registered MG to cover themselves if ATF decides the FCG is a MG FCG. |
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Not sure if its been posted but there is another company out there making a similar trigger. Not sure if it has a semi and double tap selector, might just be double tap only.
http://shop.libertygunworksinc.com/ Obviously the franklin armory BFS seems a bit nicer but figured i would post the link as if that trigger system was approved by the ATF, along with the letter from the Mini 14 then i would say this will be approved as well. EDIT: This rifle is Safe/Double, no options for a semi auto. |
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It's a joke. It's all a joke. Mother, forgive me.
WA, USA
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
I don't care. He also shouldered it FWIW: There is a good chance that is a registered MG to cover themselves if ATF decides the FCG is a MG FCG. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By GrantS:
I'm more wondering about that vertical grip... I know they can be put on if the length is over a certain amount but that sucker looks shorter than the other one's I've seen. FWIW: There is a good chance that is a registered MG to cover themselves if ATF decides the FCG is a MG FCG. Franklin Armory is an 07/FFL and Class II SOT. per their Facebook Could very well be. |
The unbannable retread #1 on NorCal_LEOs Most Wanted
Mental gymnastics Gold Medalist right here folks. - mototard Honorary Black Person - conservativeblkfem |
Originally Posted By Spartikis: Not sure if its been posted but there is another company out there making a similar trigger. Not sure if it has a semi and double tap selector, might just be double tap only. http://shop.libertygunworksinc.com/ Obviously the franklin armory BFS seems a bit nicer but figured i would post the link as if that trigger system was approved by the ATF, along with the letter from the Mini 14 then i would say this will be approved as well. EDIT: This rifle is Safe/Double, no options for a semi auto. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
No option for safing the second shot, which IMO is a fatal flaw to the liberty gun works rifle. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By Spartikis:
Not sure if its been posted but there is another company out there making a similar trigger. Not sure if it has a semi and double tap selector, might just be double tap only. http://shop.libertygunworksinc.com/ Obviously the franklin armory BFS seems a bit nicer but figured i would post the link as if that trigger system was approved by the ATF, along with the letter from the Mini 14 then i would say this will be approved as well. EDIT: This rifle is Safe/Double, no options for a semi auto. That and their price point is ridiculous, requires you to buy a $800 lower, no thanks! If Franklin Armory can keep their trigger in the $300 range i bet they will sell like hot cakes. I personally will buy one assuming it has a half way decent two stage semi auto trigger. Certainly not going to sell my full auto M16 as a two shot burst doesnt compare to true full auto but for a couple hundred bucks its a reasonably priced way to add higher rate of fire to multiple AR15s in your collection, or for anyone who wants burst fire without having to sell a kidney to afford it. |
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In the absence of a plan, move toward the sound of gunfire and kill everything.
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Originally Posted By MILSPEC556: Originally Posted By ArmedFerret: It's easy to get a trigger that will do this. Just send a good-quality mil-spec trigger to that Springfield guy. Lmao! |
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interesting
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I don't understand why this is considered dangerous by some.
Trap gun release triggers are more dangerous in my opinion. Shooters develop an expectation that the gun will not fire on pulling the trigger because the pull sets the trigger. Then release to fire. I've watched more than one release shooter say, "Oh, sweet shotgun, mind if I try a few birds?" and they promply dust the trap house with a load of #8 shot because they were attempting to set the trigger like they would on their personal shotgun. The only expectation a shooter should develop with a fire on pull fire on release trigger is that bullets might come out of the business end no matter what your trigger finger does. Who in their right mind pulls a trigger, retains the trigger and begins muzzle sweeping prior to release and reset? Anyone who does is a danger to themselves and others regardless of the type of trigger they have. Additionally, this requires zero modification to your normal weapon handling. None. Unlike bump firing. |
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DanTSX - "Acquiring better guns by burying the shitty ones behind you is the path to enlightenment."
LaRue customer for life! Stand with Rand |
View Quote The guy is a felon. He shouldered the brace. |
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Our revolution will have been in vain if a Virginia farmer is held in hock to a New York stock jobber, who is in hock to a London banker. The opportunities for corruption would prove irresistible.
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Originally Posted By GriswoldGuns:
Need to see Jerry Miculek do a side by side with normal trigger before I form any hard opinions. If he can make it shoot like an mg42, then I could maybe get M3 (greasegun) like rof. No practical value, could be fun with a .22 upper and tracers View Quote His limitation is how fast the gun is cycling. |
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"Fuck the world. I've been there, it's stupid."
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I want to see it paired with a bump fire stock!
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: It probably wouldn't work very well because of the timing issues. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By jaqufrost: Originally Posted By rdb2403: I want to see it paired with a bump fire stock! |
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Originally Posted By MINOBARN:
And possibly illegal. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By MINOBARN:
Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By rdb2403:
I want to see it paired with a bump fire stock! As has already been stated, it follows the letter of the law. I bet this thing gets approved. |
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"Adding a piston to an AR is like nailing more legs to a dog and calling it an octopus." - Chapman
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I would definitely consider buying one of these if they are priced reasonably (*cough Tac-Con cough*) and get approved. If anything, just to have fun and send lead down range.
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Filthy sinner saved by grace
"9mm gets the job done!" - Trayvon Martin (GTwannabe) |
Originally Posted By MINOBARN:
And possibly illegal. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By MINOBARN:
Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By rdb2403:
I want to see it paired with a bump fire stock! They're an 02 SOT. They can test what they want. |
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Filthy sinner saved by grace
"9mm gets the job done!" - Trayvon Martin (GTwannabe) |
Wasn't there was a thread in here not too long ago that detailed out how you could make the same basic thing out of a modified M16A2 burst trigger group?
yup, here it is |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
No option for safing the second shot, which IMO is a fatal flaw to the liberty gun works rifle. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By Spartikis:
Not sure if its been posted but there is another company out there making a similar trigger. Not sure if it has a semi and double tap selector, might just be double tap only. http://shop.libertygunworksinc.com/ Obviously the franklin armory BFS seems a bit nicer but figured i would post the link as if that trigger system was approved by the ATF, along with the letter from the Mini 14 then i would say this will be approved as well. EDIT: This rifle is Safe/Double, no options for a semi auto. |
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"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet retired spot and kill him." Mark Twain
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Originally Posted By ROMAD-556:
Wasn't there was a thread in here not too long ago that detailed out how you could make the same basic thing out of a modified M16A2 burst trigger group? yup, here it is View Quote So is Franklin basically just making that trigger described in the link it are they adding extra features? Ie 2 stage semi trigger or other features? If not all you're buying from them is a modded mil spec trigger with a ATF approval letter. |
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