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Sometimes the first shot might have a different POI. Cycling action by hand is different than cycling during firing. At least that COULD be an explanation. You should be able to tell if that really is the case if you look through a spotting scope at your shots. To see which hits where. But that requires you to take your face off the gun obviously.
Looks like good shooting and I bet you had a good time. I definitely would not be dissatisfied with that shooting at 100 with irons. |
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Lake City/Federal XM193 55gr. 5.56 I'll get a nice tight group. But there's always one that lands out to the right of the group. Why does this happen? View Quote ill give you one guess |
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Lake City/Federal XM193 55gr. 5.56 I'll get a nice tight group. But there's always one that lands out to the right of the group. Why does this happen? ill give you one guess TaylorWSO was basically saying that it's the ammo that's causing your rifle to group like that. Bulk 55gr FMJ ammo, from my personal experience with all the Noveske's I've owned over the years, is 2-3 MOA ammo on average (10 shot groups). There are times where you can possibly get 1.5" or better but, that doesn't seem to be the norm. If someone tells you that XM193 FMJ Bulk ammo is sub-MOA ammo, I would personally be a little skeptical of their claims. This is just my personal experience shooting XM193 or similar ammo over the past 11 years. If you want tiny groups, you should try shooting match ammo and see what your particular rifles likes best. |
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I don't know about the fliers, but that is one sexy rifle OP.
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Keep on practicing, and you'll only get better. As said above, bulk ammo isn't match ammo, and is usually rated for 3-5 moa. Which is all you need out of military ammo. Get some good match stuff, I like black hills heavy options, and practice the fundamentals. Here are some shots from my 11.5" noveske at 100 yards, they make fantastic barrels. 6 shots on the bottom, and 3 shots on the top. http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/cfaulkner0006/IMAG0924.jpg Rifle http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/cfaulkner0006/SAM_0325.jpg View Quote Sick groups Brother!! What ammo and if handloaded, what are the specs? That's some great shooting for sure... |
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Definitely an ammo problem. Try something heavier and higher quality.
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TaylorWSO was basically saying that it's the ammo that's causing your rifle to group like that. Bulk 55gr FMJ ammo, from my personal experience with all the Noveske's I've owned over the years, is 2-3 MOA ammo on average (10 shot groups). There are times where you can possibly get 1.5" or better but, that doesn't seem to be the norm. If someone tells you that XM193 FMJ Bulk ammo is sub-MOA ammo, I would personally be a little skeptical of their claims. This is just my personal experience shooting XM193 or similar ammo over the past 11 years. If you want tiny groups, you should try shooting match ammo and see what your particular rifles likes best. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Lake City/Federal XM193 55gr. 5.56 I'll get a nice tight group. But there's always one that lands out to the right of the group. Why does this happen? ill give you one guess TaylorWSO was basically saying that it's the ammo that's causing your rifle to group like that. Bulk 55gr FMJ ammo, from my personal experience with all the Noveske's I've owned over the years, is 2-3 MOA ammo on average (10 shot groups). There are times where you can possibly get 1.5" or better but, that doesn't seem to be the norm. If someone tells you that XM193 FMJ Bulk ammo is sub-MOA ammo, I would personally be a little skeptical of their claims. This is just my personal experience shooting XM193 or similar ammo over the past 11 years. If you want tiny groups, you should try shooting match ammo and see what your particular rifles likes best. Yup, I do have some better ammo (Black Hills 77gr. OTM and Hornady 75gr. Superformance Match). But I'm waiting to get more trigger time with the bulk stuff before I start blasting through the more expensive ammo. But what's puzzling me is, is it common for bulk ammo to consistently yield a fairly tight group, except for one "flyer" off to the same POI each time? |
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Great shooting OP!
That's about 2MOA at 50yards, which is very good grouping using M193. I personally would be very happy with that result. |
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But what's puzzling me is, is it common for bulk ammo to consistently yield a fairly tight group, except for one "flyer" off to the same POI each time? View Quote its bulk ammo, not match ammo. Your making conclusions from a very tiny sample size. with the ammo your shooting you cannot make any conclusions about what you're seeing except its inconsistent, which is what you see. Its not match ammo, if you want to get rid of flyers, get better ammo, and stop obsessing over KNOWN surplus inconsistencies |
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Sick groups Brother!! What ammo and if handloaded, what are the specs? That's some great shooting for sure... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Keep on practicing, and you'll only get better. As said above, bulk ammo isn't match ammo, and is usually rated for 3-5 moa. Which is all you need out of military ammo. Get some good match stuff, I like black hills heavy options, and practice the fundamentals. Here are some shots from my 11.5" noveske at 100 yards, they make fantastic barrels. 6 shots on the bottom, and 3 shots on the top. http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/cfaulkner0006/IMAG0924.jpg Rifle http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/cfaulkner0006/SAM_0325.jpg Sick groups Brother!! What ammo and if handloaded, what are the specs? That's some great shooting for sure... That's the black hills 75grain heavy match hollow point. I handload as well, but this has been accurate enough for me to usually turn to instead of my own reloads. |
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Your groups are fine. I'd say minute-of-bad guy. You and your rifle are ready to put meat on the ground.
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That's the black hills 75grain heavy match hollow point. I handload as well, but this has been accurate enough for me to usually turn to instead of my own reloads. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Keep on practicing, and you'll only get better. As said above, bulk ammo isn't match ammo, and is usually rated for 3-5 moa. Which is all you need out of military ammo. Get some good match stuff, I like black hills heavy options, and practice the fundamentals. Here are some shots from my 11.5" noveske at 100 yards, they make fantastic barrels. 6 shots on the bottom, and 3 shots on the top. http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/cfaulkner0006/IMAG0924.jpg Rifle http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/cfaulkner0006/SAM_0325.jpg Sick groups Brother!! What ammo and if handloaded, what are the specs? That's some great shooting for sure... That's the black hills 75grain heavy match hollow point. I handload as well, but this has been accurate enough for me to usually turn to instead of my own reloads. Thanks, I might have to try some of the stuff in my Noveske SPR. I've had great results with Hornady TAP 75gr 5.56 and BH Mk262 but, only on a few separate occasions have I ever printed a group as good as yours. |
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Thanks, I might have to try some of the stuff in my Noveske SPR. I've had great results with Hornady TAP 75gr 5.56 and BH Mk262 but, only on a few separate occasions have I ever printed a group as good as yours. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Keep on practicing, and you'll only get better. As said above, bulk ammo isn't match ammo, and is usually rated for 3-5 moa. Which is all you need out of military ammo. Get some good match stuff, I like black hills heavy options, and practice the fundamentals. Here are some shots from my 11.5" noveske at 100 yards, they make fantastic barrels. 6 shots on the bottom, and 3 shots on the top. http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/cfaulkner0006/IMAG0924.jpg Rifle http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/cfaulkner0006/SAM_0325.jpg Sick groups Brother!! What ammo and if handloaded, what are the specs? That's some great shooting for sure... That's the black hills 75grain heavy match hollow point. I handload as well, but this has been accurate enough for me to usually turn to instead of my own reloads. Thanks, I might have to try some of the stuff in my Noveske SPR. I've had great results with Hornady TAP 75gr 5.56 and BH Mk262 but, only on a few separate occasions have I ever printed a group as good as yours. I'll be the first to credit most of my good shooting to my trigger. I use geissele SDE in that rifle, and in all of my precision setups. a good trigger really makes all the difference in the world for accuracy in an AR. |
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Yup, I do have some better ammo (Black Hills 77gr. OTM and Hornady 75gr. Superformance Match). But I'm waiting to get more trigger time with the bulk stuff before I start blasting through the more expensive ammo. But what's puzzling me is, is it common for bulk ammo to consistently yield a fairly tight group, except for one "flyer" off to the same POI each time? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Lake City/Federal XM193 55gr. 5.56 I'll get a nice tight group. But there's always one that lands out to the right of the group. Why does this happen? ill give you one guess TaylorWSO was basically saying that it's the ammo that's causing your rifle to group like that. Bulk 55gr FMJ ammo, from my personal experience with all the Noveske's I've owned over the years, is 2-3 MOA ammo on average (10 shot groups). There are times where you can possibly get 1.5" or better but, that doesn't seem to be the norm. If someone tells you that XM193 FMJ Bulk ammo is sub-MOA ammo, I would personally be a little skeptical of their claims. This is just my personal experience shooting XM193 or similar ammo over the past 11 years. If you want tiny groups, you should try shooting match ammo and see what your particular rifles likes best. Yup, I do have some better ammo (Black Hills 77gr. OTM and Hornady 75gr. Superformance Match). But I'm waiting to get more trigger time with the bulk stuff before I start blasting through the more expensive ammo. But what's puzzling me is, is it common for bulk ammo to consistently yield a fairly tight group, except for one "flyer" off to the same POI each time? OP, I doubt you will get better results using that Hornady Superformance ammo. It is called Match and may use match components, but shoots poorly compared to most real match ammo. It is hot and performs well, but it is usually 3-4 MOA ammo- altho some guns shoot it better (1.5-2moa more likely), AND it is designed for rifle length gas or bolt guns. This ammo is designed more for long-range shooting, not so much shorter range. In my experience, when I had horizontal stringing, was due to something loose (mount or optics). Better triggers do help my shooting overall, but to consistently get good groups requires everything to be right and tight. IF YOU DO SHOOT that Superformance ammo, watch closely for pressure signs- it is hot ammo. Your odds are better with the Black Hills or Hornady match (not Superformance), try some 68-69gr stuff when you get a chance also. And practice- you'll get there. HTH |
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OP, I doubt you will get better results using that Hornady Superformance ammo. It is called Match and may use match components, but shoots poorly compared to most real match ammo. It is hot and performs well, but it is usually 3-4 MOA ammo- altho some guns shoot it better (1.5-2moa more likely), AND it is designed for rifle length gas or bolt guns. This ammo is designed more for long-range shooting, not so much shorter range. In my experience, when I had horizontal stringing, was due to something loose (mount or optics). Better triggers do help my shooting overall, but to consistently get good groups requires everything to be right and tight. IF YOU DO SHOOT that Superformance ammo, watch closely for pressure signs- it is hot ammo. Your odds are better with the Black Hills or Hornady match (not Superformance), try some 68-69gr stuff when you get a chance also. And practice- you'll get there. HTH View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Lake City/Federal XM193 55gr. 5.56 I'll get a nice tight group. But there's always one that lands out to the right of the group. Why does this happen? ill give you one guess TaylorWSO was basically saying that it's the ammo that's causing your rifle to group like that. Bulk 55gr FMJ ammo, from my personal experience with all the Noveske's I've owned over the years, is 2-3 MOA ammo on average (10 shot groups). There are times where you can possibly get 1.5" or better but, that doesn't seem to be the norm. If someone tells you that XM193 FMJ Bulk ammo is sub-MOA ammo, I would personally be a little skeptical of their claims. This is just my personal experience shooting XM193 or similar ammo over the past 11 years. If you want tiny groups, you should try shooting match ammo and see what your particular rifles likes best. Yup, I do have some better ammo (Black Hills 77gr. OTM and Hornady 75gr. Superformance Match). But I'm waiting to get more trigger time with the bulk stuff before I start blasting through the more expensive ammo. But what's puzzling me is, is it common for bulk ammo to consistently yield a fairly tight group, except for one "flyer" off to the same POI each time? OP, I doubt you will get better results using that Hornady Superformance ammo. It is called Match and may use match components, but shoots poorly compared to most real match ammo. It is hot and performs well, but it is usually 3-4 MOA ammo- altho some guns shoot it better (1.5-2moa more likely), AND it is designed for rifle length gas or bolt guns. This ammo is designed more for long-range shooting, not so much shorter range. In my experience, when I had horizontal stringing, was due to something loose (mount or optics). Better triggers do help my shooting overall, but to consistently get good groups requires everything to be right and tight. IF YOU DO SHOOT that Superformance ammo, watch closely for pressure signs- it is hot ammo. Your odds are better with the Black Hills or Hornady match (not Superformance), try some 68-69gr stuff when you get a chance also. And practice- you'll get there. HTH Hmm, I got the Hornady because a few other people recommended it. Same thing with the Black Hills. It was all, "best ammo ever!!!" and now I got a few people telling me it's "ok" at best. And now that I've done some more digging, I do see the overpressure issue with the Hornady. The dealer I got the Black Hills from said it is much higher pressure ammo as well. I might just have to sell the Hornady and get something else then. Can you recommend some good "match" ammo for me to try in a 16", 1:7 barrel? And not something vague like "try 62gr ammo." I mean like a specific brand and type of ammo that I can try. I read that going super light, like 50 grain, might actually be better for tight groups at 100 yards. Any truth to this? My gun is not a match gun, though. It has a CHF, chrome-lined barrel and ALG Defense ACT trigger. So not exactly set up for competition match grade tight group shooting. I do have plans to go with a better trigger at least. Thinking about the Wilson Combat TTU. Maybe down the line I might upgrade to a better barrel as well. But not until I shoot the shit out of this one first. |
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Must be a slow night. ;) Looking at these two groups, they are identical. Except in slightly different locations. But each one is pretty tight except for that one shot off to the right side. I'm not sure if the "flyers" are the first shot or not. I didn't have a spotter to tell me. But if it's the first shot, my best guess is I'm flinching? Or after the first shot, I "settle" into the cheek weld/grip/shoulder weld? Or it's a random coincidence? Or cold barrel or something? I have no clue. http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/328/1/9/group_3_by_haftelm-d87iw3b.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Lake City/Federal XM193 55gr. 5.56 I'll get a nice tight group. But there's always one that lands out to the right of the group. Why does this happen? ill give you one guess Must be a slow night. ;) Looking at these two groups, they are identical. Except in slightly different locations. But each one is pretty tight except for that one shot off to the right side. I'm not sure if the "flyers" are the first shot or not. I didn't have a spotter to tell me. But if it's the first shot, my best guess is I'm flinching? Or after the first shot, I "settle" into the cheek weld/grip/shoulder weld? Or it's a random coincidence? Or cold barrel or something? I have no clue. http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/328/1/9/group_3_by_haftelm-d87iw3b.jpg OP, I'll offer a little different take. If those two five shots groups are shot at the same point of aim around the same time, think of it as one ten shot group. That's really what it is after all. As a ten shot group, it looks more ordinary. You're shooting well. The only suggestion I have is shoot groups of at least five shots. Three shots don't tell you much about yourself or your ammo. |
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OP, I'll offer a little different take. If those two five shots groups are shot at the same point of aim around the same time, think of it as one ten shot group. That's really what it is after all. As a ten shot group, it looks more ordinary. You're shooting well. The only suggestion I have is shoot groups of at least five shots. Three shots don't tell you much about yourself or your ammo. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Lake City/Federal XM193 55gr. 5.56 I'll get a nice tight group. But there's always one that lands out to the right of the group. Why does this happen? ill give you one guess Must be a slow night. ;) Looking at these two groups, they are identical. Except in slightly different locations. But each one is pretty tight except for that one shot off to the right side. I'm not sure if the "flyers" are the first shot or not. I didn't have a spotter to tell me. But if it's the first shot, my best guess is I'm flinching? Or after the first shot, I "settle" into the cheek weld/grip/shoulder weld? Or it's a random coincidence? Or cold barrel or something? I have no clue. http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/328/1/9/group_3_by_haftelm-d87iw3b.jpg OP, I'll offer a little different take. If those two five shots groups are shot at the same point of aim around the same time, think of it as one ten shot group. That's really what it is after all. As a ten shot group, it looks more ordinary. You're shooting well. The only suggestion I have is shoot groups of at least five shots. Three shots don't tell you much about yourself or your ammo. Well it's not like the gun was locked down in a vice or something. Variations in my hold or my aim come into account, no? How can I know it's the exact same POI if I'm using iron sights, hand-held (well braced against some pieces of wood)? Those groups were shot back-to-back though. But I put the rifle down, took a look through the spotting scope. Stood up, stretched. Maybe scratched my balls or something. Then sat back down at the bench, picked up the rifle and tried to aim at the bullseye as best I could. So not exactly the "same" POI lol. |
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I read a lot of conflicting information on the forums concerning ammo. I got the Hornady because a few other people recommended it. And now a few other people are poo-pooing it. Same thing with the Black Hills. It was all, "best ammo ever guys!!!" and now I got a few people telling me it's "ok" at best. What's the deal? The dealer I got the Black Hills from said it is much higher pressure ammo as well. I will be shooting the Hornady though. This is the first I've heard of it being overly hot. What sort of "signs" should I be watching out for? Can you recommend some good "match" ammo for me to try in a 1:7 barrel? And not something vague like "try 62gr ammo." I mean like a specific brand and type of ammo that I can try. I read that going super light, like 50 grain, might actually be better for tight groups at 100 yards. Any truth to this? My gun is not a match gun, though. It has a CHF, chrome-lined barrel and ALG Defense ACT trigger. So not exactly set up for competition match grade tight group shooting. I do have plans to go with a better trigger at least. Thinking about the Wilson Combat TTU. Maybe down the line I might upgrade to a better barrel as well. But not until I shoot the shit out of this one first. View Quote I figure that Black Hills 77gr will should do you fine, but as some others said, it'll excel for long range. Hornady makes some great shooting ammo also, but Superformance stuff is niche ammo. I bought several cases of it in .223 and 5.56, shot probably half so far, and handed some out to others at the range. Pressure signs can range from extractor swipe to cratered primers (some have even blown primers)- none in my experience (but all guns are different). I'll look for a Hornady SF link and add it shortly, it is hot ammo that most many do not like. I've never found it to excel in anything but velocity, but the bullet performs pretty well on game, and it's accuracy is fine for hog hunting where I hunt. As far as recommending any ammo, follow what others have said here. Each gun has it's own likes, yours will too. It looks plenty capable of good accuracy, just play with any Match (except the SF) and you should hit what works best in yours. Your shooting is fine, practice (and good, tight equipment) will take you there. Use a good rest and practice breathing/trigger control, it'll come with practice. Shoot that bitch and enjoy Hornady Superformance link SF ammo page And lastly, my reloads rarely beat many Black Hills loads for accuracy in most of my rifles, but it's possible to tweak loads to specific rifles. BH does good in their offerings. Good luck. Edit to add- Read that page, it'll explain the strange pressure curve due to the powder they used (to get higher velocity). You'll know pretty quickly if your gun likes it or not, and look at the brass. I've shot it in mostly rifle gas, a couple middies did ok but shows extractor swipes. Re-edit to add- Look at this page, will show 2 different 75 gr Hornady Match loads (8026 & 80261) Check this page |
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I figure that Black Hills will do you fine, but as some others said, it'll excel for long range. Hornady makes some great shooting ammo also, but Superformance stuff is niche ammo. I bought several cases of it in .223 and 5.56, shot probably half so far, and handed some out to others at the range. Pressure signs can range from extractor swipe to cratered primers (some have even blown primers)- none in my experience (but all guns are different). I'll look for a Hornady SF link and add it shortly, it is hot ammo that most many do not like. I've never found it to excel in anything but velocity, but the bullet performs pretty well on game, and it's accuracy is fine for hog hunting where I hunt. As far as recommending any ammo, follow what others have said here. Each gun has it's own likes, yours will too. It looks plenty capable of good accuracy, just play with any Match (except the SF) and you should hit what works best in yours. Your shooting is fine, practice (and good, tight equipment) will take you there. Use a good rest and practice breathing/trigger control, it'll come with practice. Shoot that bitch and enjoy Hornady Superformance link (soon) And lastly, my reloads rarely beat many Black Hills loads for accuracy in most of my rifles, but it's possible to tweak loads to specific rifles. BH does good in their offerings. Good luck. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I read a lot of conflicting information on the forums concerning ammo. I got the Hornady because a few other people recommended it. And now a few other people are poo-pooing it. Same thing with the Black Hills. It was all, "best ammo ever guys!!!" and now I got a few people telling me it's "ok" at best. What's the deal? The dealer I got the Black Hills from said it is much higher pressure ammo as well. I will be shooting the Hornady though. This is the first I've heard of it being overly hot. What sort of "signs" should I be watching out for? Can you recommend some good "match" ammo for me to try in a 1:7 barrel? And not something vague like "try 62gr ammo." I mean like a specific brand and type of ammo that I can try. I read that going super light, like 50 grain, might actually be better for tight groups at 100 yards. Any truth to this? My gun is not a match gun, though. It has a CHF, chrome-lined barrel and ALG Defense ACT trigger. So not exactly set up for competition match grade tight group shooting. I do have plans to go with a better trigger at least. Thinking about the Wilson Combat TTU. Maybe down the line I might upgrade to a better barrel as well. But not until I shoot the shit out of this one first. I figure that Black Hills will do you fine, but as some others said, it'll excel for long range. Hornady makes some great shooting ammo also, but Superformance stuff is niche ammo. I bought several cases of it in .223 and 5.56, shot probably half so far, and handed some out to others at the range. Pressure signs can range from extractor swipe to cratered primers (some have even blown primers)- none in my experience (but all guns are different). I'll look for a Hornady SF link and add it shortly, it is hot ammo that most many do not like. I've never found it to excel in anything but velocity, but the bullet performs pretty well on game, and it's accuracy is fine for hog hunting where I hunt. As far as recommending any ammo, follow what others have said here. Each gun has it's own likes, yours will too. It looks plenty capable of good accuracy, just play with any Match (except the SF) and you should hit what works best in yours. Your shooting is fine, practice (and good, tight equipment) will take you there. Use a good rest and practice breathing/trigger control, it'll come with practice. Shoot that bitch and enjoy Hornady Superformance link (soon) And lastly, my reloads rarely beat many Black Hills loads for accuracy in most of my rifles, but it's possible to tweak loads to specific rifles. BH does good in their offerings. Good luck. Cool, thanks. :) I'll probably hold off on using that Superformance stuff then. Might just sell it to someone and look for something else. Also, I'm not seeing any regular Hornady "match" ammo that isn't Superformance. For 5.56 they only have two rounds: Superformance 75gr and 55gr. GMX Superformance. Oh, wait... they have the BTHP Match 75gr. in 223. Is that what you're talking about? |
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