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Posted: 11/25/2014 1:45:06 AM EDT
[#1]
I've had one come out of adjustment. Never had one that didn't need to be rezeroed every six months, either.
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Posted: 11/25/2014 1:55:48 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys and your silly 1/9 fascination. Gimme 1/7 and my 77 grain OTM rounds. 1/12 or 1/14 and 55 gr M193.....Charlie HATED that 
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Posted: 11/25/2014 9:38:34 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once this rifle is done, its going to be ridiculous. Its not done.   Adding the ejection port door didn't make it "done"? |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 10:26:19 AM EDT
[#4]
Its getting more compact ACOG courtesy of a loan from Trijicon. Plus non ugly compensator was installed. This be my rifle for iron sight division shooting.
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Posted: 11/25/2014 11:25:37 AM EDT
[#5]
Where can I get an A1 stock?
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:17:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where can I get an A1 stock? Fulton and Fulton part 2 I have several CavArms stocks, the material is better than the original A1 but the butt hardware needs to be replaced with GI. Review here Sarco |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 11:08:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Thanks, I thought that Cav Arms was gone.
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Posted: 11/26/2014 10:16:19 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was an very active high power competitor in the mid-80"s when Sierra and Hornady came out with 69/68 grain .224" match bullets. Everyone shot M1 Garands and M1-A's except one poor soul who got a lot of grief from the .30 cal. guys about shooting a "mouse gun". That guy went on to set our range record with a 1/9 twist, 24" long SGW space gun (200/16x on the MR52 target with iron sights). Although this score was fired at the 200 yard (600 yard reduced) target, that record still stands today almost twenty-five years later. I shot my personal best of 489/500 on that range with a M1-A Super Match built by Glen Nelson of Columbus, GA. Fast forward to 2014 and a 1/9 barrel is insufficient to stabilize 77 grain bullets. Some 1/9 barrels (around 50%) will stabilize Hornady 75's for short range, but can't be relied upon to stay stabile once velocity starts to drop. Stability, if achieved at all in a 1/9 is borderline when using 75 grain bullets. You need a 1/8 or 1/7 today to take advantage of the best bullets available. These faster twist barrels shoot lighter bullets very well, you lose nothing going to a faster twist. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You guys and your silly 1/9 fascination. Gimme 1/7 and my 77 grain OTM rounds. I was an very active high power competitor in the mid-80"s when Sierra and Hornady came out with 69/68 grain .224" match bullets. Everyone shot M1 Garands and M1-A's except one poor soul who got a lot of grief from the .30 cal. guys about shooting a "mouse gun". That guy went on to set our range record with a 1/9 twist, 24" long SGW space gun (200/16x on the MR52 target with iron sights). Although this score was fired at the 200 yard (600 yard reduced) target, that record still stands today almost twenty-five years later. I shot my personal best of 489/500 on that range with a M1-A Super Match built by Glen Nelson of Columbus, GA. Fast forward to 2014 and a 1/9 barrel is insufficient to stabilize 77 grain bullets. Some 1/9 barrels (around 50%) will stabilize Hornady 75's for short range, but can't be relied upon to stay stabile once velocity starts to drop. Stability, if achieved at all in a 1/9 is borderline when using 75 grain bullets. You need a 1/8 or 1/7 today to take advantage of the best bullets available. These faster twist barrels shoot lighter bullets very well, you lose nothing going to a faster twist. Except 1/4 the accuracy with the ammo (55-62) you are going to shoot with 95% of the time. That means nothing to you? Interesting.... 
Edit. Quoted:
Thanks, I thought that Cav Arms was gone. The a2 stock was gone when i looked last week. They do have an a2 style in A1 length. In all the colors. |
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Posted: 11/26/2014 10:35:01 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys and your silly 1/9 fascination. Gimme 1/7 and my 77 grain OTM rounds. +1000 I have three 1/7 barrels that all shoot 55gr very accurately 77gr FTW |
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Posted: 11/26/2014 10:40:38 AM EDT
[#10]
Some damn fine rifles in this thread.
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Posted: 11/26/2014 1:00:53 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except 1/4 the accuracy with the ammo (55-62) you are going to shoot with 95% of the time. That means nothing to you? Interesting....
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:
You guys and your silly 1/9 fascination. Gimme 1/7 and my 77 grain OTM rounds. I was an very active high power competitor in the mid-80"s when Sierra and Hornady came out with 69/68 grain .224" match bullets. Everyone shot M1 Garands and M1-A's except one poor soul who got a lot of grief from the .30 cal. guys about shooting a "mouse gun". That guy went on to set our range record with a 1/9 twist, 24" long SGW space gun (200/16x on the MR52 target with iron sights). Although this score was fired at the 200 yard (600 yard reduced) target, that record still stands today almost twenty-five years later. I shot my personal best of 489/500 on that range with a M1-A Super Match built by Glen Nelson of Columbus, GA. Fast forward to 2014 and a 1/9 barrel is insufficient to stabilize 77 grain bullets. Some 1/9 barrels (around 50%) will stabilize Hornady 75's for short range, but can't be relied upon to stay stabile once velocity starts to drop. Stability, if achieved at all in a 1/9 is borderline when using 75 grain bullets. You need a 1/8 or 1/7 today to take advantage of the best bullets available. These faster twist barrels shoot lighter bullets very well, you lose nothing going to a faster twist. Except 1/4 the accuracy with the ammo (55-62) you are going to shoot with 95% of the time. That means nothing to you? Interesting....
1/4 the accuracy? Someone lied to you. |
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Posted: 11/26/2014 1:27:58 PM EDT
[#12]
Back to OP's original post - dude I love it, and think you nailed it. Only minor difference is I actually like the A2 sights, but I understand where you are getting at.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1/4 the accuracy? Someone lied to you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
You guys and your silly 1/9 fascination. Gimme 1/7 and my 77 grain OTM rounds. I was an very active high power competitor in the mid-80"s when Sierra and Hornady came out with 69/68 grain .224" match bullets. Everyone shot M1 Garands and M1-A's except one poor soul who got a lot of grief from the .30 cal. guys about shooting a "mouse gun". That guy went on to set our range record with a 1/9 twist, 24" long SGW space gun (200/16x on the MR52 target with iron sights). Although this score was fired at the 200 yard (600 yard reduced) target, that record still stands today almost twenty-five years later. I shot my personal best of 489/500 on that range with a M1-A Super Match built by Glen Nelson of Columbus, GA. Fast forward to 2014 and a 1/9 barrel is insufficient to stabilize 77 grain bullets. Some 1/9 barrels (around 50%) will stabilize Hornady 75's for short range, but can't be relied upon to stay stabile once velocity starts to drop. Stability, if achieved at all in a 1/9 is borderline when using 75 grain bullets. You need a 1/8 or 1/7 today to take advantage of the best bullets available. These faster twist barrels shoot lighter bullets very well, you lose nothing going to a faster twist. Except 1/4 the accuracy with the ammo (55-62) you are going to shoot with 95% of the time. That means nothing to you? Interesting....
1/4 the accuracy? Someone lied to you. 1/4 the accuracy difference is an overstatement. American RifleMan says half the accuracy with M855A1, Possible, but I suspect even that is a bit of an overstatement. So is there an accuracy difference? Yes - yes there is. But wait, we have the oft-posted Molon data showing it doesn't really matter? Yes we do - using match bullets. And too much twist indeed doesn't matter so much with match grade bullets, because excessive spin on a balanced bullet is still a balanced bullet. It DOES matter on real world M193 & M855 bullets that aren't always so well balanced. It's worth note that Molon (who's just another guy by the way) used a 1/9 when he tested M193 bullets. As to 1/9 not being good enough for 75's, that's sometimes true, sometimes not - depends on the barrel. Being on the edge, it does make sense to get a faster twist just to be sure, if you shoot 75's that is. Since most shooters don't, making 1/7 the expected standard twist for everyone is forcing a specialty twist that is more detriment than advantage for most shooters. Keep 1/7 as a specialty twist. Best general purpose twist is 1/9. Best General purpose twist for a serious shooter who intends to include regular heavies is 1/8. Best twist for serious shooter who only will shoot 77's, is 1/8. Best twist for arctic conditions shooting tracers, is 1/7. Will most shooters be satisfied with 1/7 anyway? Probably - it doesn't ruin your gun, it's more an engineering optimization debate that a question on if 1 is garbage an the other perfection. But since I do often have the option to choose, I choose 1/9 for my general purpose guns, and 1/8 for my High Power Service Rifle guns. I'll never choose 1/7. |
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Posted: 11/26/2014 1:39:14 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mine <a href="https://flic.kr/p/9TgmbQ" target="_blank">https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2558/5830990028_f7823ea56d_b.jpg</a> Although the stock body is now a B5 Bravo. Throw a CAR stock on that for maximum awesomeness. Nice gun. |
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Posted: 11/26/2014 2:31:17 PM EDT
[#14]
I'm the OP, and in my original post I advocated for a 1/9 twist for a rifle fielded in 1983 shooting M855...
BUT, since the discussion has veered towards MODERN bullets and twists, here is what I found, which is consistent with Molon's work. I've posted this in different threads, but it's now relevant here. the RRA barrel tested below is the same type of barrel used in my build shown in the first post. _____________________________ From a 20" 1/7 BCM free floated government profile rifle at 100 yards: Click for test thread XM193  Handloaded 52 gr Sierra Matchkings on the left  Federal 69gr Sierra Match king (top group) and IMI 77 OTM Razor core (bottom group).  From a 16" RRA 1/9 Lightweight barrel at 100 yards: Click for full test 0.820 -Hornady 55 gr Steel Match 0.833 -Hornady 75 gr Steel Match 1.302 -Handloaded Sierra 52 gr HPBT Note the middle is 75 gr  Hornady 52 gr HPBT Black Hills 69 gr SMK Federal Fusion (5 shots, all I had)  10 rounds of the new IMI 77 grain Razor Core ammo. This 1/9 rifle did okay with 75 grain, but not very well with 77 grain.  M16A1 20" 1/12 twist barrel at 100 yards: Click for full test 1.543" Hornady 52gr HPBT Match - giving 1.472 MOAand Mean Radius of 0.472" 1.661" Hornady 55gr Steel Match or 1.058" without one flyer, giving 1.059 MOA and Mean Radius of 0.427" 2.124" Handloaded Winchester 55gr FMJ (not shown) 2.313" Handloaded Sierra 52gr HPBT (1.625" without one flyer)    52 Sierra HPBT 52 Sierra HPBT 55 Hornady FMJBT  Conclusions so far: The 1/12 shoots the light stuff really well. It can't handle 60 grain or higher. The 1/9 shoots the light bullets well, and mine did decently with the 75's, but not too great with the 77's. The 1/7 shot all the loads well. All of them. It gave up no accuracy to the faster twists even with lighter bullets. In fact, it shot the 52 grainers better than the 1/9 and the 1/12. This only my little unscientific test. I've been having fun with it. Your mileage may vary... _______________________ I still stand by my claim that in 1983, a 1/9 twist was best for the service rifle. Now with the plethora of 70 + grain ammo, it makes little sense to NOT use a 1/7 for a general purpose rifle, unless you just want to fit in a 55-69 grain niche. When RRA makes that barrel in a 1/7, my life will be complete. Someone else said " the 1/9 has no benefit, and the 1/7 has no disadvantage" |
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Posted: 11/26/2014 5:44:13 PM EDT
[#15]
IIRC the 1/7 was used because the tracer rounds were as long as something like a 74gr bullet.
Twist rate factors in bullet length, tracers and steel tip are longer since they are not a dense as lead core |
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Posted: 11/26/2014 9:15:10 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Flat tops with a rail were not conceived until much later In all my time carrying a flat top with a detachable carrying handle, I never had it shoot loose. For that matter, I never had one of my QD optic mounts loosen up either. Guess it depends on what mount you are using and how you torque the carry handle. Dave N |
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Posted: 11/26/2014 9:58:16 PM EDT
[#17]
mid-90ish?
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Posted: 12/25/2014 4:39:08 PM EDT
[#18]
A new pic of the same setup with a flat top.
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Posted: 2/7/2015 11:02:32 PM EDT
[#19]
I took that rifle above out to the range today. 100 yards with a SS 10X mildot shot from the bench. 20 seconds between shots. 65 degrees and sunny. A little breeze.
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