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Posted: 10/31/2014 11:11:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wouldn't say like every useful machinegun. Home defense and house clearing would benefit from a well trained operator using a machinegun as well. Intermediate or long distance non-suppressive fire is better suited by semi auto though. A 5 shot burst in 1/3 second from a controllable rifle caliber machinegun would make an excellent home defense tool IMO. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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this thread is not about bumpfiring most bumpfiring is a waste of time and just for s**** and giggles you are prone bumpfiring which can be effective but under different imperfect conditions im sure youll have trouble. im sure you have to set it up and learn a technique to do it effectively but as far as standing bumpfire thats a different ballgame He's attempting to recreate a automatic rifle/SAW, there. Like every useful machine gun, it's meant to be fired from the prone, off of a bipod or a tripod, or off of a pintle mount. A 5 shot burst in 1/3 second from a controllable rifle caliber machinegun would make an excellent home defense tool IMO. I suspect he was using the word MG in the military sense, as a belt fed crewish served weapon, not in the NFA legal definision. That slide fire shooting prone is pretty bad ass. |
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Posted: 10/31/2014 11:15:22 PM EDT
[#2]
as to the topic of the OP,
i really like the idea of it. If I could get two or three shot burst, or that effect, I would be content w/ that. What I don't like is the safety issue of having to discharge a second round always or trying to clear the weapon while holding down the trigger. also, too much money. Just sell the trigger unit or lowers w/ the trigger in stalled or the service of installing it on the lower reeiver of choice. Nice Aero guns those guys were using. Also, they don't know how to control the muzzels of those things, magwell hold lol |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 1:16:18 AM EDT
[#3]
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Ya, it's not a gray area. It's definitely illegal. More than one shot per trigger press. It constitutes a machine gun. lol. |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 2:09:01 AM EDT
[#4]
back from the dead.
Damn shame this thing isn't selectable... |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 4:23:25 AM EDT
[#5]
For those of you who may be interested, after discussing it with jaqufrost , I send a letter asking for ATF approval on the trigger modification he posted about. If they approve it, I will post a thread documenting either the success or failure of actually trying to implement that idea.
Due to the fact that it uses M16 components to achieve the desired effect, I don't feel comfortable doing it without approval; there shouldn't be any problems, but you never know with the ATF. |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 10:51:42 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For those of you who may be interested, after discussing it with jaqufrost , I send a letter asking for ATF approval on the trigger modification he posted about. If they approve it, I will post a thread documenting either the success or failure of actually trying to implement that idea. Due to the fact that it uses M16 components to achieve the desired effect, I don't feel comfortable doing it without approval; there shouldn't be any problems, but you never know with the ATF. Thank you! This could be revolutionary! Are there any pictures of the 2 shot trigger parts/mechanism now as it is? Does it have multiple sears or disconnectors or something?? I fear the ATF may say someting about having extra FCG parts on hand in enough quantity to make a complete set extra to what you have for your RR or RDIAS/LL. Are they still pushing that line of bull, that having too many spare FCG parts could be like constructive possession? |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 10:57:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank you! This could be revolutionary! Are there any pictures of the 2 shot trigger parts/mechanism now as it is? Does it have multiple sears or disconnectors or something?? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: For those of you who may be interested, after discussing it with jaqufrost , I send a letter asking for ATF approval on the trigger modification he posted about. If they approve it, I will post a thread documenting either the success or failure of actually trying to implement that idea. Due to the fact that it uses M16 components to achieve the desired effect, I don't feel comfortable doing it without approval; there shouldn't be any problems, but you never know with the ATF. Thank you! This could be revolutionary! Are there any pictures of the 2 shot trigger parts/mechanism now as it is? Does it have multiple sears or disconnectors or something?? |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 10:59:45 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would use two disconnectors. One is always on, but releases the hammer when the trigger is released. The second is cammed in and out of position by the selector. In the normal fire position it is engaged and the firearm functions like a normal AR15 trigger. In the third position this disconnector is cammed out of the way and the trigger functions on pull and release. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For those of you who may be interested, after discussing it with jaqufrost , I send a letter asking for ATF approval on the trigger modification he posted about. If they approve it, I will post a thread documenting either the success or failure of actually trying to implement that idea. Due to the fact that it uses M16 components to achieve the desired effect, I don't feel comfortable doing it without approval; there shouldn't be any problems, but you never know with the ATF. Thank you! This could be revolutionary! Are there any pictures of the 2 shot trigger parts/mechanism now as it is? Does it have multiple sears or disconnectors or something?? have you seen the 2 shot triggers parts in person to be sure you idea could work? I reviewd the thread but I didnt' see it. |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 11:25:19 PM EDT
[#9]
The building of it seems somewhat sketchy.
Essentially, if you don't get it right the first time, you might be building a machine gun. I know its legal to have the parts if they are not assembled, but I'm sure this will require some T&E I'm interested in seeing Giessele's version of the 3 mode |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 11:31:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The building of it seems somewhat sketchy. Essentially, if you don't get it right the first time, you might be building a machine gun. I know its legal to have the parts if they are not assembled, but I'm sure this will require some T&E I'm interested in seeing Giessele's version of the 3 mode Since the parts are being modified in such a manner as to make them inoperable as a machine gun, I don't think that should be a big deal. I would probably order them individually, rather than ordering a complete FCG, regardless. If it doesn't work, and you wind up with a malfunction that causes it to fire in full auto, it's not really that different from any other malfunctioning trigger. I guess we'll see what the ATF thinks, though. Common sense isn't their forte. |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 11:50:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm interested in seeing Giessele's version of the 3 mode ??? |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 11:53:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since the parts are being modified in such a manner as to make them inoperable as a machine gun, I don't think that should be a big deal. I would probably order them individually, rather than ordering a complete FCG, regardless. If it doesn't work, and you wind up with a malfunction that causes it to fire in full auto, it's not really that different from any other malfunctioning trigger. I guess we'll see what the ATF thinks, though. Common sense isn't their forte. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The building of it seems somewhat sketchy. Essentially, if you don't get it right the first time, you might be building a machine gun. I know its legal to have the parts if they are not assembled, but I'm sure this will require some T&E I'm interested in seeing Giessele's version of the 3 mode Since the parts are being modified in such a manner as to make them inoperable as a machine gun, I don't think that should be a big deal. I would probably order them individually, rather than ordering a complete FCG, regardless. If it doesn't work, and you wind up with a malfunction that causes it to fire in full auto, it's not really that different from any other malfunctioning trigger. I guess we'll see what the ATF thinks, though. Common sense isn't their forte. is there a place that will sell M16 FCG parts w/o making you send a copy of a full auto tax stamp or SOT papers? Seems like that would make this hard for a guy to do who doesn't have a RR/RDIAS/RLL |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 12:04:48 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
is there a place that will sell M16 FCG parts w/o making you send a copy of a full auto tax stamp or SOT papers? Seems like that would make this hard for a guy to do who doesn't have a RR/RDIAS/RLL Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The building of it seems somewhat sketchy. Essentially, if you don't get it right the first time, you might be building a machine gun. I know its legal to have the parts if they are not assembled, but I'm sure this will require some T&E I'm interested in seeing Giessele's version of the 3 mode Since the parts are being modified in such a manner as to make them inoperable as a machine gun, I don't think that should be a big deal. I would probably order them individually, rather than ordering a complete FCG, regardless. If it doesn't work, and you wind up with a malfunction that causes it to fire in full auto, it's not really that different from any other malfunctioning trigger. I guess we'll see what the ATF thinks, though. Common sense isn't their forte. is there a place that will sell M16 FCG parts w/o making you send a copy of a full auto tax stamp or SOT papers? Seems like that would make this hard for a guy to do who doesn't have a RR/RDIAS/RLL You can buy them off of gunbroker, and Brownells sells the pieces individually. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 2:24:57 AM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 12/19/2014 3:52:41 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote Historywow, he has an FTB approval, at least for the one unit he made. I dont 'know about for sale... he posted that 1 yr agao, no comments in 9 months.......... |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 11:30:13 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
??? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm interested in seeing Giessele's version of the 3 mode ??? Click Here |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 4:11:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Im amazed by the people who haven't actually read the damn NFA and post as though they are informed.
comeon DBs, read the frikkin NFA!!! not illegal. trigger pull is completely different than trigger reset. (I still would not do it, though.. in my opinion operating a firearm is about control, you cannot control a trigger that fires when you release it) |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 4:14:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im amazed by the people who haven't actually read the damn NFA and post as though they are informed. comeon DBs, read the frikkin NFA!!! not illegal. trigger pull is completely different than trigger reset. (I still would not do it, though.. in my opinion operating a firearm is about control, you cannot control a trigger that fires when you release it) |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 4:41:16 PM EDT
[#19]
i read that as being a possibility and not mandatory.
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Posted: 12/19/2014 4:44:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i read that as being a possibility and not mandatory. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 4:47:16 PM EDT
[#21]
In case people haven't read a lot of teh replies here, fire upon pull, and fire upon release of a trigger is OK per the ATF. Now, from a safety standpoint, maybe not the brightest idea, especially for leftys.
Jacfrost has a good idea, and I'm interested in teh reply. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 4:49:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IMO it's unsafe without it. With the geissele video showing sub .1 splits this may all be pretty moot anyways. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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i read that as being a possibility and not mandatory. that's my point. geissele can do it (if it can be done) i'd be interested in it IF it had select fire... but I'd probably run my kit SA most of the time. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 5:10:58 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryHmmm, so the point is for it to be a safer 2 stage trigger for running and gunning, cqb etc, but a lighter cleaner single stage trigger for when shooting at a distance form a rest or whatever?? Hmm, I wonnder if the inconsisten trigger would mess you up in some scenarios. Interesting idea though. I guee you wouldn't have to choose b/t a target and a combat type trigger. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 5:30:48 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hmmm, so the point is for it to be a safer 2 stage trigger for running and gunning, cqb etc, but a lighter cleaner single stage trigger for when shooting at a distance form a rest or whatever?? Hmm, I wonnder if the inconsisten trigger would mess you up in some scenarios. Interesting idea though. I guee you wouldn't have to choose b/t a target and a combat type trigger. Quote HistoryQuoted: Hmmm, so the point is for it to be a safer 2 stage trigger for running and gunning, cqb etc, but a lighter cleaner single stage trigger for when shooting at a distance form a rest or whatever?? Hmm, I wonnder if the inconsisten trigger would mess you up in some scenarios. Interesting idea though. I guee you wouldn't have to choose b/t a target and a combat type trigger. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 7:28:47 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Their video showed .1 splits, so I think it's going to be a little better than just an SD3G. At least I hope so. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Hmmm, so the point is for it to be a safer 2 stage trigger for running and gunning, cqb etc, but a lighter cleaner single stage trigger for when shooting at a distance form a rest or whatever?? Hmm, I wonnder if the inconsisten trigger would mess you up in some scenarios. Interesting idea though. I guee you wouldn't have to choose b/t a target and a combat type trigger. I'm more interested in what brake the guy in the SD3G video is using. Unreal muzzle control on that thing, and the shooter was doing very little to control muzzle rise, and dancing around like an Indian performer. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 8:41:47 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm more interested in what brake the guy in the SD3G video is using. Unreal muzzle control on that thing, and the shooter was doing very little to control muzzle rise, and dancing around like an Indian performer. it's called shoot 3000 rounds a week. that, and his buffer, buffer spring, gas block, bolt, and trigger have all been tuned to finer precision than a Swiss timepiece. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:46:23 AM EDT
[#27]
yep,
there is so little recoil in the cartridge itself. most of the recoil of an AR that takes you of target is the action bottoming out on your shoulder like a dead blow hammer. competiive shooters that run low mass systems ofgen just run empty buffers to reduce the mass and the dead blow effect. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:28:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because having to fire a second shot after the first is an idiotic fucking idea. What do you do if that second shot is unneeded or unsafe? Engage the safety while holding down the trigger (if the design allows for that)? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In...Looks really cool...Legality however looks shaky, doesn't one pull of the trigger include reset? No. A machine gun is a firearm that fires more than once per FUNCTION of the trigger. The pull is one function, the reset is another function. http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt194/BulZiPhoto/batferuger2-shot_Trigger.jpg so why has more companies not made triggers like this? seems like a better option then a slide fire even. This company can not be the only one out there. Plus they only sell the whole pistol  Because having to fire a second shot after the first is an idiotic fucking idea. What do you do if that second shot is unneeded or unsafe? Engage the safety while holding down the trigger (if the design allows for that)? it's like a release trigger on a shotgun. If you don't want to fire the gun you have to hold the trigger back while breaking the action open. I've seen people do it with an double gun and it's not that big of a deal, it's a little more interesting on an auto. I think it's a stupid design, but some people flinch so bad this is the only way they can continue to shoot. |
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Posted: 12/24/2014 10:10:20 AM EDT
[#29]
I'll stand by my statement earlier..
a round with each movement of the trigger is not needed. you're certainly not improving accuracy by adding this trigger, you're slinging more lead downrange, hoping that one of the two shots hit your intended mark. IMO, you'd be better served practicing more with a stock trigger. |
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Posted: 12/24/2014 10:47:20 AM EDT
[#30]
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you're slinging more lead downrange How is that a bad thing? I immensely enjoy slinging moar lead downrange! |
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Posted: 12/24/2014 12:38:49 PM EDT
[#31]
This looks similar to a trigger I've seen before. Safe and semi selector positions are normal, and the 'auto' position basically just gives you an ultra short trigger reset. Perfectly legal.
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Posted: 12/25/2014 1:46:51 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll stand by my statement earlier.. a round with each movement of the trigger is not needed. you're certainly not improving accuracy by adding this trigger, you're slinging more lead downrange, hoping that one of the two shots hit your intended mark. IMO, you'd be better served practicing more with a stock trigger. there are guys at the range who shoot their SBARs so fuckign fast. These are milspect type SBRs w/ very good muzzle brakes on them. They can really put lots of led on target fast. Watching them do that led me to sell my bumpfire stock. I didn't think it was worth it to put up w/ the atrocious rickety stock that led to shitty muzzle control, or to have the hassle of swapping hte stock back and forth, so that i coudl shoot just a wee bit faster but w/o accuracy. The bumpfire stock, as was my intention when I bought it, was just for bump firing fun. But those super fast splits those guys hammered out were w/ some seroius accuracy, practical and fun. So, I decided to sell the stock and look into low mass parts since I hate brakes. anyway, where i see this trigger being beneficl practically, would be in a subsonic 300 BO or pistol caliber AR in a home defense scenario where could benefit from shooting a lower power (and quieter) cartridge by increasing rate of fire. You could put lots of energy on target & protect your family's hearing better, all w/o shooting rifle bullets to land who know where down the street if you have any exit the structure. I would not want that trigger system if it was not selectable, but if it was it would be probably 85% as good as a real SMG or select fire 300 BO. |
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Posted: 12/25/2014 2:16:24 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think it was in poor taste to shoot the pistol from the shoulder. I guess if your going sketchy might as well go all in... Thats called 'Stock"holm syndrome Sir ,....seek counseling. |
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Posted: 1/22/2015 8:09:42 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hmmm, so the point is for it to be a safer 2 stage trigger for running and gunning, cqb etc, but a lighter cleaner single stage trigger for when shooting at a distance form a rest or whatever?? Hmm, I wonnder if the inconsisten trigger would mess you up in some scenarios. Interesting idea though. I guee you wouldn't have to choose b/t a target and a combat type trigger. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hmmm, so the point is for it to be a safer 2 stage trigger for running and gunning, cqb etc, but a lighter cleaner single stage trigger for when shooting at a distance form a rest or whatever?? Hmm, I wonnder if the inconsisten trigger would mess you up in some scenarios. Interesting idea though. I guee you wouldn't have to choose b/t a target and a combat type trigger. Actually the opposite. You'd want the light single stage for run and gun fast shooting and the two stage for linger shots. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 5:49:57 PM EDT
[#35]
There's the letter from the ATF clarifying that a trigger that fires once upon the squeeze and once upon release is a non-NFA item.
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Posted: 1/24/2015 12:27:04 AM EDT
[#36]
And that letter is more recent than the original one for the Mini 14 trigger mod, so there is consistency in their ruling on this issue.
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