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Posted: 10/1/2014 12:36:25 PM EDT

I have to confess ignorance here.  I mixed up the BCG's for my 2 rifles while cleaning them up prior to firing them.  Do I need to check headspace prior to firing?


thx


Link Posted: 10/1/2014 12:43:33 PM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 12:49:28 PM EDT
[#2]

ok thx.  Both rifle builds are new Del-Ton uppers.  The bolts have trace wear from test firing, but otherwise should be new.








Link Posted: 10/1/2014 12:54:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 1:46:19 PM EDT
[#4]

       ordered the go and no go gauges from Midway today just in case.  Will set my peanut brain more at ease lol.  Plus now I'll "HAVE" to build my own upper next time to justify the expense of the gauges right????






PS one of the BCG's I am putting in one of my rifles is the PTAC nickel boron one from PSA.  I am doing my own Frog lube experiment.  I have 2 Del-Ton BCG's, 2 PTAC Nickel boron coated, and one Hardened Arms BCG.  I am taking my time and cleaning, prepping, applying the Frog lube to one of the Del-Ton's and the PTAC Nickel Boron bolts.  I will cycle several hundred rounds through each and then gauge any benefit to using the Frog lube.  It is a PIA to apply, but not the end of the world, and I figured it best done on a new bolt group if I have the change; which I did.  My main reason for "wanting" it t work, is it "seems" that it could make cleanup easier down the road.  If this is the case, and I don't get any ill effects in cold weather, I'm a believer.  If it doesn't help in cleanup later, and/or gunks up in winter, then it goes into the pile of lures I bought that hooked me but no fish.



pss. thx for your replies :)  

Link Posted: 10/1/2014 2:50:37 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 3:12:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Cancel the order.

All you need is the USGI Field Gauge, the go/no go are more for guys building the barrels.

You want a USGI field gauge.  It comes in a foil wrapper with a calibration card.  The USGI can be used w/o disassembling the bolt (which is not the case with most civilian gauges).  The Field gauge will let you know when the headspace has become too long for safe operation.

Another reason to use the USGI vs the civilian Field gagues is one is done to proper 5.56 specs, the other to .223 specs.  You can fail a 5.56 barrel with a civie .223 field gauge; that same barrel will pass with the USGI gauge.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
       ordered the go and no go gauges from Midway today just in case



Cancel the order.

All you need is the USGI Field Gauge, the go/no go are more for guys building the barrels.

You want a USGI field gauge.  It comes in a foil wrapper with a calibration card.  The USGI can be used w/o disassembling the bolt (which is not the case with most civilian gauges).  The Field gauge will let you know when the headspace has become too long for safe operation.

Another reason to use the USGI vs the civilian Field gagues is one is done to proper 5.56 specs, the other to .223 specs.  You can fail a 5.56 barrel with a civie .223 field gauge; that same barrel will pass with the USGI gauge.


+1
The USGI Gauges are getting hard to find now though. When I got mine a few years back, it was one of the last ones the guy had.
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 3:26:04 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
Optimally it's best, but it's really not needed; unless both rifles are really worn/well used (think 8-10K rounds and up).

But if you do swap the bolts it will slightly increase the wear on the bolts as it 'mates' with the new barrel.

View Quote


This is a fantastic response and I totally agree. OP, unless your rifles have more than 5K then I really wouldn't worry about it. If they do have that many rounds then buy a no go gauge if for nothing else but piece of mind... My friends and I share each others tools at times and this would be a great one to share... kinda like a MOACKS tool is...
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 3:34:25 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


+1
The USGI Gauges are getting hard to find now though. When I got mine a few years back, it was one of the last ones the guy had.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
       ordered the go and no go gauges from Midway today just in case



Cancel the order.

All you need is the USGI Field Gauge, the go/no go are more for guys building the barrels.

You want a USGI field gauge.  It comes in a foil wrapper with a calibration card.  The USGI can be used w/o disassembling the bolt (which is not the case with most civilian gauges).  The Field gauge will let you know when the headspace has become too long for safe operation.

Another reason to use the USGI vs the civilian Field gagues is one is done to proper 5.56 specs, the other to .223 specs.  You can fail a 5.56 barrel with a civie .223 field gauge; that same barrel will pass with the USGI gauge.


+1
The USGI Gauges are getting hard to find now though. When I got mine a few years back, it was one of the last ones the guy had.


Can you tell me where to get one???
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 3:40:46 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 9:58:23 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Can you tell me where to get one???
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
       ordered the go and no go gauges from Midway today just in case



Cancel the order.

All you need is the USGI Field Gauge, the go/no go are more for guys building the barrels.

You want a USGI field gauge.  It comes in a foil wrapper with a calibration card.  The USGI can be used w/o disassembling the bolt (which is not the case with most civilian gauges).  The Field gauge will let you know when the headspace has become too long for safe operation.

Another reason to use the USGI vs the civilian Field gagues is one is done to proper 5.56 specs, the other to .223 specs.  You can fail a 5.56 barrel with a civie .223 field gauge; that same barrel will pass with the USGI gauge.


+1
The USGI Gauges are getting hard to find now though. When I got mine a few years back, it was one of the last ones the guy had.


Can you tell me where to get one???

I got mine from Bill Ricca a few years back. There's actually one on the EE now, for $175
Bill Ricca
GI headspac gauge
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 11:11:58 PM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 10/1/2014 11:39:58 PM EDT
[#12]
Must be gold plated>
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 1:05:51 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
I have to confess ignorance here.  I mixed up the BCG's for my 2 rifles while cleaning them up prior to firing them.  Do I need to check headspace prior to firing?

thx

View Quote


Whenever you swap bolts, the answer is YES you should check headspace. However, 99.9% of the time when dealing with ar15s, the bcg should headspace correctly no matter what upper they go into. A go/nogo gauge is really cheap and getting an ejector removal tool is rather cheap as well. Checking head space is really easy and can take as little as 15 minutes if you have to remove the extractor/ejector or in some cases the headspace has a pre-cut hole so all you need to do is check it in a few minutes.

This gets confusing to some people because other rifles aside from the ar15 don't normally have interchangeable bolts and requires either bolt lappinng or reaming to get the head space right. In most circumstances, a person could get a box of bolts, and keep swapping them until one passes the head space.

If the headspace is incorrect on an ar15, then most of the time it requires that you toss the barrel or return it.

Now a smart idea, regardless, is to get head space gauges and occasionally check the head space of your rifle. The headspace does grow, but we're talking about .00001 ranges of growth under normal circumstances but eventually the barrle goes bad and the head space is way out.  A field gauge will tell you if your barrel is done for and you need to get a new one. For most folks, they can't do this in a life time, but if you shoot a lot, then having a gauge is somewhat of a good investment to make.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 1:20:32 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Cancel the order.

All you need is the USGI Field Gauge, the go/no go are more for guys building the barrels.

You want a USGI field gauge. It comes in a foil wrapper with a calibration card. The USGI can be used w/o disassembling the bolt (which is not the case with most civilian gauges). The Field gauge will let you know when the headspace has become too long for safe operation.

Another reason to use the USGI vs the civilian Field gagues is one is done to proper 5.56 specs, the other to .223 specs. You can fail a 5.56 barrel with a civie .223 field gauge; that same barrel will pass with the USGI gauge.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
ordered the go and no go gauges from Midway today just in case



Cancel the order.

All you need is the USGI Field Gauge, the go/no go are more for guys building the barrels.

You want a USGI field gauge. It comes in a foil wrapper with a calibration card. The USGI can be used w/o disassembling the bolt (which is not the case with most civilian gauges). The Field gauge will let you know when the headspace has become too long for safe operation.

Another reason to use the USGI vs the civilian Field gagues is one is done to proper 5.56 specs, the other to .223 specs. You can fail a 5.56 barrel with a civie .223 field gauge; that same barrel will pass with the USGI gauge.



This is slightly incorrect. To correctly check the headspace, you need two gauges at the minimum and both must be by the same company. A go gauge and a field gauge. Or a go gauge, and a nogo gauge. You don't need all three, unless you failed the no-go in which case the field is needed. That is why most people recommend a field gauge and a go gauge. For a new weapon, it's recommended to check with a no-go gauge because if it fails that, then you'd want to give the rifle back even though it may be safe to use. And yes, very rarely rifles do fail the no-go test but still shoot fine and it's a brand new rifle. Just read around the forums here for some stories of it. Because the OP swapped bolts, it's a good idea to get a set of go/nogo and check each upper and bcg with it.

The military uses a field gauge because the bcg never leaves the original rifle which is head spaced and correct. So long as you use the same bcg throughout the life of it, then it is okay to check with just a field gauge to determine if it is time to toss it. The military would in fact still check with a go gauge and no go gauge if they swap the barrel out (which they wouldn't, it would just go to the destruction yard).

The Colt field gauge is what you'd want. It doesn't have the pre-cut cutout but it does work. I have one myself. However, regardless of .223 or 5.56 the field gauge is measured normally at 1.4736 by forster and clymer. Now here's the thing: both the .223 and 5.56 gauges result in the same thing BUT measures differently. You'll have to read up on it but the difference between a .223 and a 5.56 round isn't the headspace. When you say the field gauge can pass, that's not because the field gauge is wrong, but because you used two gauges which might have measured differently from one another.

To give you an example of how DANGEROUS it is to check with a single gauge, take my m1a bolt. I checked it with a empty snap cap that is "built to spec," and it passes. Then I check with a no-go gauge. It passes. BUT.... I then take a go gauge, and check it again, and sure enough, it failed. The bolt would not close on the go gauge. So yeah, if I just had a field gauge, and just had a snap cap, I would have an dangerous weapon in hand. The bolt does closes on a empty chamber too so it adds a bit of deception that could be dangerous for me and others. Lesson learned to check with TWO gauges, not one and make sure they are of the same company.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 11:59:34 AM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 1:03:12 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:

Can you tell me where to get one???
View Quote

brownells and midwayusa have them around $30
edit: may have to take this back...dont see them any more

Link Posted: 10/2/2014 3:49:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Bolts have manufacturing tolerances.
A person can find as much as a .002” difference in headspace by using a different bolt with a barrel.
I have found several barrels that failed Go gages.
The military has Go and No-go specs for new weapons.
The No-go spec of 1.4706” is set so a weapon can fire a minimum of 6k rounds before failing the Field gage.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 8:53:25 PM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:
You'll note NEVER is a 'go' gauge called for. On page C-17-1 you'll find the complete tool list needed for maintenance of the rifle - note that only a field gauge (Gauge, Headspace NSN# 5220000707814) is called out. The only place I've heard of a go/no gauge being used is at Depot Level and those guys can pull off barrel extensions (something no user will ever do).
View Quote


I never said a GO gauge is used by the military. If you read further down in my post, I stated that the military just uses a field gauge because the original bolt is never going to leave the rifle. In such a case, using a single gauge is perfectly fine as you said and as the manual said. You DO need a go and either a field or no-go gauge if you are swapping parts. Just because the military passes a manual around that doesn't apply to civilians. Did you know the military has a mil-spec stapler tolerances? That's right, a stapler. The military loves to document everything from the specs of a tolet roll holder all the way to a weapon. That's because it makes logistics easier knowing exactly what something is. If the military had 2 different toilet paper holder, then that means they need two different supply list, that means millions of dollars wasted and in the end, some poor GI stuck in Afghan is going to have a broken toilet paper holder. The same applies with a bolt. If the same bolt, with the same spec is used everywhere, then that means everything is good to go. No messy checks, no nothing. Just check it with a field gauge, and you're good to go. Some GI might be pissed about his lack of toilet paper, but at least his gun is going to work.

You are indeed correct that the tolerances of the ar15 is good enough to where you can easily swap a bolt, btu to recommend or tell someone that they shouldn't do a full head space check is both irresponsible and dangerous. When such an advice is given, it's ultimately the advice taker that is taking the ultimate risk, not the advice giver. As such, one should always play it safe, regardless of what any military technical manual says. We're talking about many different manufacturers. A military bolt and gun are built to a very specific specification that rarely falls out. A civilian AR15 is not the same as a military one. A bolt can in fact be out of tolerance and as such must be checked any time there is doubt, no matter how small the chance may be. And when such a check is made, all possible angles must be covered. In this case, both a go and a field or no go gauges must be used.

My example about the m1a is still valid here. It has nothing to do with differences of a rifle, but a mention that it is dangerous to just check one aspect of something that requires two. The concept that a single field gauge to use only applies to military weapons, not civilian weapons. And the concept of using one gauge to periodically check a weapon is only if the original bolt is still used. Since the TC stated a bolt has been swapped, that means ALL checks must be made, not just one.

Chances are though, regardless of checking head space or not, the TC will probably be fine. 99.999% of the time, bolt swap in an ar15 is fine. That doesn't mean you should just do it because as I said ultimately, it's not the advice giver that's going to lose his eye sights, it's the advice taker.
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