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Posted: 8/20/2014 9:40:52 PM EDT
Has anyone ever come up with a design for a dust cover that's spring loaded to close instead?
I understand closed dust cover can interfere with extraction, but what if someone came up with a design: 1. Much lighter dust cover and dust cover spring that could open each time a shot is fired by gas escaping out of the BCG and/or force of exiting empty casing. 2. Dust cover that closes itself whenever bolt catch is engaged. Two dust cover springs: strong spring that closes, and weaker spring that opens. When dust cover opens up after a shot is fired, the stronger spring can disengage, and only re-engage when bolt catch is pushed up by empty magazine. Perhaps, to work with ambi-lowers with specialized bolt catch and dust cover assembly. We have to look inside the upper receiver through the ejection port sometimes to figure out malfunctions, and closed dust cover will interfere with that. I don't have a suggestion for this, yet. Maybe high-heat resistant clear/see-through polymer dust cover or REALLY strong glass of some sort, if such things exist. I just wanted to share couple things that came up in my head while I was watching AK vs AR reliability video on Youtube. It seemed most apparent and problematic issue with AR reliability was dirt entering inside the receiver when BCG was held open. I also remembered a documentary which a soldier who served in Middle East pointed out that his AR was unusable after emptying one magazine during a sand storm. Anyways, just having fun brainstorming random idea. Feel free to point out any errors~ By the way, no "just buy an AK" comment. We all know AK is more reliable system. And I'm already considering buying one.  |
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Posted: 8/20/2014 9:47:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Seems like a good way to end up with any number of malfunctions (case jammed above the BCG, stovepipe, etc.) Quite honestly I think you're venturing into the area of diminishing returns.
I've personally never had an issue stemming from the port door opening and staying open, although I've never fired my weapon in a duststorm so maybe someone else can chime in. Either way, adding another moving part to the cycle of operation seems like it will complicate issues more than it will solve them. Sounds like a solution in search of a problem. |
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Posted: 8/20/2014 9:49:57 PM EDT
[#2]
Extra moving parts means more things to break and thus more spare parts to have.
Plus springs wear by cycles...it wouldn't really take too many shots in the grand scheme of things to wear/break the springs operating the door. But more brain storming for new ideas is always a good thing. |
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Posted: 8/20/2014 10:37:11 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems like a good way to end up with any number of malfunctions (case jammed above the BCG, stovepipe, etc.) Quite honestly I think you're venturing into the area of diminishing returns. I've personally never had an issue stemming from the port door opening and staying open, although I've never fired my weapon in a duststorm so maybe someone else can chime in. Either way, adding another moving part to the cycle of operation seems like it will complicate issues more than it will solve them. Sounds like a solution in search of a problem. Pretty much this. I see no reason to try and make ejection more complicated, it sounds like a solution looking for a problem. |
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Posted: 8/20/2014 10:50:08 PM EDT
[#4]
If you really really wanted to you could remove the detent from a port door and flip the spring around so that the spring holds the door closed. Unless you're in a gunfight in a massive dust storm it's not going to matter though and would create some other issues to deal with.
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Posted: 8/20/2014 10:56:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Unnecessary. But there are alot of unnecessary products in the AR world so there would still be a market. But I wouldnt buy one lol
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Posted: 8/21/2014 12:47:45 AM EDT
[#6]
I've pondered this before. I think about it this way: the action is open long enough for a case to eject, then the bolt closes, which reseals it. With your idea, the action would be exposed just as long. The advantage it has is when the bolt locks back on an empty mag.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 1:38:05 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've pondered this before. I think about it this way: the action is open long enough for a case to eject, then the bolt closes, which reseals it. With your idea, the action would be exposed just as long. The advantage it has is when the bolt locks back on an empty mag. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 2:02:10 AM EDT
[#8]
You should work at Red Jacket.
Its just begging for a malfunction. You dont want anything hindering the ejection of the cases. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 3:09:21 AM EDT
[#9]
If it ain't broke,......don't fix it!
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Posted: 8/21/2014 4:04:16 AM EDT
[#10]
Here's one inventor's solution, although it requires a gas piston system and/or big changes to the BCG:
The final modification to the bolt came about as a result of the experiences of U.S. troops serving in Iraq. Extremely fine dust and other contaminants can clog up the action of a standard M4 or M16. To address that issue, Brown added a polymer dust wiper to the bolt carrier that seals the ejection port when the bolt is in battery. That helps prevent foreign material from entering the action. It also “wipes” any debris out that may enter the receiver. In order to accommodate the wiper, Brown moved the detent that holds the ejection port cover closed from the top of the cover to the rear. American Rifle review of the ADCORD Bear Rifle with polymer dust wiper to seal the ejection port http://www.gunblast.com/images/Adcor-BEAR/Thumbs/DSC02232.jpg |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 4:38:47 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's one inventor's solution, although it requires a gas piston system and/or big changes to the BCG: American Rifle review of the ADCORD Bear Rifle with polymer dust wiper to seal the ejection port http://www.gunblast.com/images/Adcor-BEAR/Thumbs/DSC02232.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's one inventor's solution, although it requires a gas piston system and/or big changes to the BCG: The final modification to the bolt came about as a result of the experiences of U.S. troops serving in Iraq. Extremely fine dust and other contaminants can clog up the action of a standard M4 or M16. To address that issue, Brown added a polymer dust wiper to the bolt carrier that seals the ejection port when the bolt is in battery. That helps prevent foreign material from entering the action. It also “wipes” any debris out that may enter the receiver. In order to accommodate the wiper, Brown moved the detent that holds the ejection port cover closed from the top of the cover to the rear. American Rifle review of the ADCORD Bear Rifle with polymer dust wiper to seal the ejection port http://www.gunblast.com/images/Adcor-BEAR/Thumbs/DSC02232.jpg I kinda like the concept, but i wonder if there's a downside. I thought of doing something similar with my slickside uppers, but they are DI. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 5:41:00 AM EDT
[#12]
Mike Pannone AR-15 Dust / Sand Test on YouTube
In case anybody has not seen a video of a direct impingement AR-15 undergoing a sand/dust test, I'd recommend watching this one. IMHO a dust cover is not necessary but helpful. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 6:58:58 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's one inventor's solution, although it requires a gas piston system and/or big changes to the BCG: American Rifle review of the ADCORD Bear Rifle with polymer dust wiper to seal the ejection port http://www.gunblast.com/images/Adcor-BEAR/Thumbs/DSC02232.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's one inventor's solution, although it requires a gas piston system and/or big changes to the BCG: The final modification to the bolt came about as a result of the experiences of U.S. troops serving in Iraq. Extremely fine dust and other contaminants can clog up the action of a standard M4 or M16. To address that issue, Brown added a polymer dust wiper to the bolt carrier that seals the ejection port when the bolt is in battery. That helps prevent foreign material from entering the action. It also “wipes” any debris out that may enter the receiver. In order to accommodate the wiper, Brown moved the detent that holds the ejection port cover closed from the top of the cover to the rear. American Rifle review of the ADCORD Bear Rifle with polymer dust wiper to seal the ejection port http://www.gunblast.com/images/Adcor-BEAR/Thumbs/DSC02232.jpg The bolt carrier "dust wiper" actually originated with some of Colt's SCAR prototypes and the APC, though I'm not sure how different Colt's design was from ADCOR's. There are patent drawings out there that I've seen at some point in time of something, but I don't recall specifics, this was some number of years ago. I actually really wanted to try it out, and it was more or less the only part of the ADCOR rifle that particularly interested me. A while back, ADCOR was planning to release a DI version of the BEAR and had said that they would release parts as well, but they've since pretty much lost steam and more or less appear to have petered out, possibly from putting too many eggs in the IC basket before that program was cancelled. It'd be interesting to see how it held up, and if ADCOR ever does get around to releasing bolt carriers in a DI configuration with the dust wiper, I may try it out - it would require a replacement ejection port cover as well. ~Augee |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 5:02:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about if it only closes on a empty mag? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've pondered this before. I think about it this way: the action is open long enough for a case to eject, then the bolt closes, which reseals it. With your idea, the action would be exposed just as long. The advantage it has is when the bolt locks back on an empty mag. Adds complication, but that'd be cool for any discipline except those that involve single loading. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 7:02:49 PM EDT
[#15]
Like in the old counter-strike bro.
We should make the forward assist the new charging handle too. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 7:29:54 PM EDT
[#16]
Meh. I'd far prefer the ability to see my chamber to verify clear and have easy access to it in the event of a malfunction, as opposed to the slim possibility that it may have a malfunction due to shooting it in a sand storm.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 11:22:58 PM EDT
[#17]
Some of the most reliable machine guns on the planet have no dust cover and an open bolt design.
That means that the action is always open for debris to possibly get into the chamber. And they all work just fine. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 9:14:53 AM EDT
[#18]
Its kind of funny adcor coming out with a dust wiper with a piston upper as if it was necessary.
take dirt and dust out of a DI system would seem to be more practical since dust and sand can stick to the lubes but the thing is unless your in a sand or dust storm not much dirt get in . Now setting down on the ground or even a matt where its really dusty or sandy with the port cover open or mag out you can get the inside dirty . I know i took the kids out eastern oregon with really fine dirt set the rifles down on case and kids walking around some dust got kicked in and stuck on the lube it did not effect but i suppose it could have but got to give it to them for thinking of everything in pursuit of the perfect rifle. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 10:01:16 AM EDT
[#19]
This is a technical forum, keep this on-topic - Eric802
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Posted: 8/22/2014 10:22:28 AM EDT
[#20]
Off-topic quoted comment removed - Eric802
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Posted: 8/22/2014 11:52:42 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: We all know AK is more reliable system. no its not, and the door idea wont work as you have desribed |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 1:47:42 PM EDT
[#22]
and a spring loaded auto closing door would get beat the heck from shells
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Posted: 8/22/2014 2:03:25 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Has anyone ever come up with a design for a dust cover that's spring loaded to close instead? I understand closed dust cover can interfere with extraction, but what if someone came up with a design: 1. Much lighter dust cover and dust cover spring that could open each time a shot is fired by gas escaping out of the BCG and/or force of exiting empty casing. 2. Dust cover that closes itself whenever bolt catch is engaged. Two dust cover springs: strong spring that closes, and weaker spring that opens. When dust cover opens up after a shot is fired, the stronger spring can disengage, and only re-engage when bolt catch is pushed up by empty magazine. Perhaps, to work with ambi-lowers with specialized bolt catch and dust cover assembly. We have to look inside the upper receiver through the ejection port sometimes to figure out malfunctions, and closed dust cover will interfere with that. I don't have a suggestion for this, yet. Maybe high-heat resistant clear/see-through polymer dust cover or REALLY strong glass of some sort, if such things exist. I just wanted to share couple things that came up in my head while I was watching AK vs AR reliability video on Youtube. It seemed most apparent and problematic issue with AR reliability was dirt entering inside the receiver when BCG was held open. I also remembered a documentary which a soldier who served in Middle East pointed out that his AR was unusable after emptying one magazine during a sand storm. Anyways, just having fun brainstorming random idea. Feel free to point out any errors~ By the way, no "just buy an AK" comment. We all know AK is more reliable system. And I'm already considering buying one. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 3:09:27 PM EDT
[#24]
If the dust cover being closed screws up extraction, it's not the dust cover that is the problem. While the OP's concept isn't "bad," it's also not needed, and would indeed introduce excessive complication into what is really a very simple - though involved - system.
Again, if extracting suffers when your dust cover is closed, it's not the dust cover but something else. Buffer, gas key, gas block position and security, gas tube, and gas rings should be scrutinized long before you worry about the very effective and very simple self-opening dust cover. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 11:03:59 PM EDT
[#25]
Horrible idea.
Gun jams or goes empty I want to be able to look in the chamber area lickety split. |
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Posted: 8/23/2014 6:06:22 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Horrible idea. Gun jams or goes empty I want to be able to look in the chamber area lickety split. That was my thought. If you lock the bolt back to clear a malfunction, you won't be able to see what is going on. If the gun goes "click" you won't be able to quickly look into the chamber to see if you have an empty mag or a malfunction. |
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