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Posted: 4/14/2014 12:31:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Then why do some sponsored shooters have their AR lowers torqued and tensioned? Is it just for function? If so then upper to lower slop must matter for some reason? I don't think it matters in the least. Maybe for a precision rifle, everything counts just a little when you play that game |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 12:31:35 PM EDT
[#2]
The AMU Armorers advise that this procedure doesn’t improve accuracy, but it makes the shooter feel more confident about their rifle. Formal testing conducted at Rodman Laboratories in the 1970s verified that accuracy wasn’t affected by normal receiver tolerances. The fact is that the bullet exits the bore before movement of the receivers produces a measurable effect.
Armalite Tech Note 55: Receiver Tightness |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 1:11:35 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The AMU Armorers advise that this procedure doesn’t improve accuracy, but it makes the shooter feel more confident about their rifle. Formal testing conducted at Rodman Laboratories in the 1970s verified that accuracy wasn’t affected by normal receiver tolerances. The fact is that the bullet exits the bore before movement of the receivers produces a measurable effect. Armalite Tech Note 55: Receiver Tightness It's amazing how well a placebo can help people 
OP, yeah a lot of professional shooters get that stuff done. A lot of professional athletes do weird things too. I heard Sammy Sosa used to insist on sitting in the same seat of their chartered plane for every single road series. Did that really help him play better? Probably not (it was probably the cork in his bats that helped him play better), but he thought it helped. You see stuff like that all the time. Bottom line: the bolt locks into the barrel extension, which is fixed to the barrel. It doesn't even need the lower receiver to be there if the firing pin could be struck without it. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 1:20:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Accuracy is about how well the shooter keeps the sights aligned with the target when the hammer falls. The hammer will hit the firing pin whether there's a couple of millimeters of slop in all three planes. But a shooter's "feel" for a rifle involves the stock and pistol grip as much as the grasp on the handguard, so some people get unhappy if the alignment of their shooting hand and their support hand aren't consistent. That's where an AccuWedge can help. But if it's not that sloppy, or it doesn't bother your alignment and trigger discipline, don't worry about it.
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Posted: 4/14/2014 1:36:22 PM EDT
[#5]
The M16 I used in basic had so much slop I could of slipped a dime between the upper and lower and I had zero trouble to fire expert threw out basic . what sucked is because I was doing so well I got damn KP kitchen duty when the ones that couldn't hit a barn if they were in it got to shoot all day. I should shot poorly so someone else would of had it. they took 5-6 of us everyday threw out basic for KP duty. and most of mine was during BRM when I was having the most fun.
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Posted: 4/14/2014 1:37:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The M16 I used in basic had so much slop I could of slipped a dime between the upper and lower and I had zero trouble to fire expert threw throughout basic . what sucked is because I was doing so well I got damn KP kitchen duty when the ones that couldn't hit a barn if they were in it got to shoot all day. I should shot poorly so someone else would of had it. they took 5-6 of us everyday threw out basic for KP duty. and most of mine was during BRM when I was having the most fun. What was our ASVAB score? 
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Posted: 4/14/2014 3:07:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Accuracy is about how well the shooter keeps the sights aligned with the target when the hammer falls and while the projectile travels down the barrel. The hammer will hit the firing pin whether there's a couple of millimeters of slop in all three planes. But a shooter's "feel" for a rifle involves the stock and pistol grip as much as the grasp on the handguard, so some people get unhappy if the alignment of their shooting hand and their support hand aren't consistent. That's where an AccuWedge can help. But if it's not that sloppy, or it doesn't bother your alignment and trigger discipline, don't worry about it. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 4:40:47 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Accuracy is about how well the shooter keeps the sights aligned with the target when the hammer falls and while the projectile travels down the barrel. The hammer will hit the firing pin whether there's a couple of millimeters of slop in all three planes. But a shooter's "feel" for a rifle involves the stock and pistol grip as much as the grasp on the handguard, so some people get unhappy if the alignment of their shooting hand and their support hand aren't consistent. That's where an AccuWedge can help. But if it's not that sloppy, or it doesn't bother your alignment and trigger discipline, don't worry about it. That's a valid point, but lock time is longer than barrel transit time in most ARs. Barrel transit time for a 5.56mm-class round is on the order of 1/1500th of a second, or 0.0006 seconds...that's 600 microseconds. On the other hand, even a very good bolt action rifle's lock time is around 6-8 milliseconds. That's at least 10 times as long. The best data I've found on AR lock time indicates about a 16 millisecond lock time for a "rack grade" AR. For comparison, the length of time the bullet is in the barrel - and subject to the influence of the shooter's ability to hold on target - is less than the amount of time it takes for the shooter to actually feel the trigger release the sear. A "fast" reaction time is about 150 milliseconds...40 times longer than bullet transit time. Yes, a very good, very stable hold on the rifle improves accuracy, but don't overestimate the contribution of the shooter's follow through. Once you know you've fired, even before you actually hear the report, the bullet is long gone from the barrel. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 5:20:40 PM EDT
[#9]
When I put my little o-ring on the front lug and squeeze the upper and lower together for that tighter than tight fit, it just makes me smile. Has zero effect on accuracy, but makes me FEEL more accurate. My knee rattles, but not my rifle!
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Posted: 4/14/2014 5:29:04 PM EDT
[#10]
while "free float handguard will improve accuracy" simply because you touch it differently?
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Posted: 4/14/2014 5:42:13 PM EDT
[#11]
i think it does affect accuracy to some degree
when the explosive goes off, high pressure gas pushes the bullet forward WHILE pushes the BCG/upper and lower backward, while your hands are pushing lower forward... the instant interaction between upper and lower will affect the barrel's position/orientation WHILE bullet is still in the barrel, so the sloppiness between upper and lower will affect the bullet's trajectory. since sloppiness means inconsistency, that means widening of the group |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 7:28:32 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I put my little o-ring on the front lug and squeeze the upper and lower together for that tighter than tight fit, it just makes me smile. Has zero effect on accuracy, but makes me FEEL more accurate. My knee rattles, but not my rifle! +1 |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 7:57:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i think it does affect accuracy to some degree when the explosive goes off, high pressure gas pushes the bullet forward WHILE pushes the BCG/upper and lower backward, while your hands are pushing lower forward... the instant interaction between upper and lower will affect the barrel's position/orientation WHILE bullet is still in the barrel, so the sloppiness between upper and lower will affect the bullet's trajectory. since sloppiness means inconsistency, that means widening of the group Seem this would only be an issue if it were inconsistently sloppy? If the "Sloppiness" was consistent then the barrel would behave consistently every shot? |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 8:27:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i think it does affect accuracy to some degree when the explosive goes off, high pressure gas pushes the bullet forward WHILE pushes the BCG/upper and lower backward, while your hands are pushing lower forward... the instant interaction between upper and lower will affect the barrel's position/orientation WHILE bullet is still in the barrel, so the sloppiness between upper and lower will affect the bullet's trajectory. since sloppiness means inconsistency, that means widening of the group Do you have some kind of evidence to back up your feeling because I dont know of any. The AMU bedded their AR's at one point too, Makes the gun feel more solid but that doesnt mean it automatically shoots better |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 9:05:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seem this would only be an issue if it were inconsistently sloppy? If the "Sloppiness" was consistent then the barrel would behave consistently every shot? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
i think it does affect accuracy to some degree when the explosive goes off, high pressure gas pushes the bullet forward WHILE pushes the BCG/upper and lower backward, while your hands are pushing lower forward... the instant interaction between upper and lower will affect the barrel's position/orientation WHILE bullet is still in the barrel, so the sloppiness between upper and lower will affect the bullet's trajectory. since sloppiness means inconsistency, that means widening of the group Seem this would only be an issue if it were inconsistently sloppy? If the "Sloppiness" was consistent then the barrel would behave consistently every shot? yes sloppy is inconsistent by definition, shot 1 the upper is canned to the right, shot 2 upper canned to the left, shot 3 upper may ram into lower, shot 4 upper starts tight with lower and recoil together... you get the idea. uncontrollable inconsistency means widened group although it's logical, have i done controlled tests to verify this? nope, mines are tight... maybe someone can try |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 9:08:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a valid point, but lock time is longer than barrel transit time in most ARs. Barrel transit time for a 5.56mm-class round is on the order of 1/1500th of a second, or 0.0006 seconds...that's 600 microseconds. On the other hand, even a very good bolt action rifle's lock time is around 6-8 milliseconds. That's at least 10 times as long. The best data I've found on AR lock time indicates about a 16 millisecond lock time for a "rack grade" AR. For comparison, the length of time the bullet is in the barrel - and subject to the influence of the shooter's ability to hold on target - is less than the amount of time it takes for the shooter to actually feel the trigger release the sear. A "fast" reaction time is about 150 milliseconds...40 times longer than bullet transit time. Yes, a very good, very stable hold on the rifle improves accuracy, but don't overestimate the contribution of the shooter's follow through. Once you know you've fired, even before you actually hear the report, the bullet is long gone from the barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Accuracy is about how well the shooter keeps the sights aligned with the target when the hammer falls and while the projectile travels down the barrel. The hammer will hit the firing pin whether there's a couple of millimeters of slop in all three planes. But a shooter's "feel" for a rifle involves the stock and pistol grip as much as the grasp on the handguard, so some people get unhappy if the alignment of their shooting hand and their support hand aren't consistent. That's where an AccuWedge can help. But if it's not that sloppy, or it doesn't bother your alignment and trigger discipline, don't worry about it. That's a valid point, but lock time is longer than barrel transit time in most ARs. Barrel transit time for a 5.56mm-class round is on the order of 1/1500th of a second, or 0.0006 seconds...that's 600 microseconds. On the other hand, even a very good bolt action rifle's lock time is around 6-8 milliseconds. That's at least 10 times as long. The best data I've found on AR lock time indicates about a 16 millisecond lock time for a "rack grade" AR. For comparison, the length of time the bullet is in the barrel - and subject to the influence of the shooter's ability to hold on target - is less than the amount of time it takes for the shooter to actually feel the trigger release the sear. A "fast" reaction time is about 150 milliseconds...40 times longer than bullet transit time. Yes, a very good, very stable hold on the rifle improves accuracy, but don't overestimate the contribution of the shooter's follow through. Once you know you've fired, even before you actually hear the report, the bullet is long gone from the barrel. There is no such thing as "follow through" on a gun. The only things that effect the accuracy of a shooter are the things done BEFORE the primer ignites - after it ignites, as you correctly point out, everything which can effect accuracy happens too slowly to make the least difference. This is simply the laws of physics. MythBusters took on "follow through" indirectly when they busted the scenes in "Wanted" where the assassins "curve the flight of the bullet" by twisting the gun while shooting. They ramped it up beyond human capabilities and wherever the barrel is pointed when the primer ignites is where the bullet will go. Before someone brings it up, a "flinch" is a voluntary reaction initiated by the shooter before primer ignition - they move the point of aim due to fear of recoil/sound before the primer ignites. A "loose" fit between AR-15 upper & lower falls into the same category of a shooter generated failure in point of aim caused by a belief the "gun moves" while they are pulling the trigger. Someone long before me summed this up best, "any AR-15 where the 'slop' is enough to effect the outcome is a gun you should be afraid is going to come apart while firing." BTW, I won't debate those who have "feelings" contrary to this reality. If you believe the 'slop' does effect the outcome, take your "sloppy" AR-15 to a public range on a weekend and promise you will give it to anyone who can shoot consistently tight groups with it. You'll find more than a few folks willing to take the challenge and someone who will be best with it ... and will GIVE IT A GOOD HOME. Oh, yeah ... for the "why do the sponsored guys" OP - because when someone ELSE is paying the bills, 99% of people can think of something else for which the sponsor can pay. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 10:56:26 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What was our ASVAB score? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The M16 I used in basic had so much slop I could of slipped a dime between the upper and lower and I had zero trouble to fire expert threw throughout basic . what sucked is because I was doing so well I got damn KP kitchen duty when the ones that couldn't hit a barn if they were in it got to shoot all day. I should shot poorly so someone else would of had it. they took 5-6 of us everyday threw out basic for KP duty. and most of mine was during BRM when I was having the most fun. What was our ASVAB score? 
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Posted: 4/15/2014 3:54:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Accuracy is about how well the shooter keeps the sights aligned with the target when the hammer falls and while the projectile travels down the barrel. The hammer will hit the firing pin whether there's a couple of millimeters of slop in all three planes. But a shooter's "feel" for a rifle involves the stock and pistol grip as much as the grasp on the handguard, so some people get unhappy if the alignment of their shooting hand and their support hand aren't consistent. That's where an AccuWedge can help. But if it's not that sloppy, or it doesn't bother your alignment and trigger discipline, don't worry about it. That's a valid point, but lock time is longer than barrel transit time in most ARs. Barrel transit time for a 5.56mm-class round is on the order of 1/1500th of a second, or 0.0006 seconds...that's 600 microseconds. On the other hand, even a very good bolt action rifle's lock time is around 6-8 milliseconds. That's at least 10 times as long. The best data I've found on AR lock time indicates about a 16 millisecond lock time for a "rack grade" AR. For comparison, the length of time the bullet is in the barrel - and subject to the influence of the shooter's ability to hold on target - is less than the amount of time it takes for the shooter to actually feel the trigger release the sear. A "fast" reaction time is about 150 milliseconds...40 times longer than bullet transit time. Yes, a very good, very stable hold on the rifle improves accuracy, but don't overestimate the contribution of the shooter's follow through. Once you know you've fired, even before you actually hear the report, the bullet is long gone from the barrel. There is no such thing as "follow through" on a gun. The only things that effect the accuracy of a shooter are the things done BEFORE the primer ignites - after it ignites, as you correctly point out, everything which can effect accuracy happens too slowly to make the least difference. This is simply the laws of physics. MythBusters took on "follow through" indirectly when they busted the scenes in "Wanted" where the assassins "curve the flight of the bullet" by twisting the gun while shooting. They ramped it up beyond human capabilities and wherever the barrel is pointed when the primer ignites is where the bullet will go. Before someone brings it up, a "flinch" is a voluntary reaction initiated by the shooter before primer ignition - they move the point of aim due to fear of recoil/sound before the primer ignites. A "loose" fit between AR-15 upper & lower falls into the same category of a shooter generated failure in point of aim caused by a belief the "gun moves" while they are pulling the trigger. Someone long before me summed this up best, "any AR-15 where the 'slop' is enough to effect the outcome is a gun you should be afraid is going to come apart while firing." BTW, I won't debate those who have "feelings" contrary to this reality. If you believe the 'slop' does effect the outcome, take your "sloppy" AR-15 to a public range on a weekend and promise you will give it to anyone who can shoot consistently tight groups with it. You'll find more than a few folks willing to take the challenge and someone who will be best with it ... and will GIVE IT A GOOD HOME. Oh, yeah ... for the "why do the sponsored guys" OP - because when someone ELSE is paying the bills, 99% of people can think of something else for which the sponsor can pay. Follow through absolutely exists and is magnified by longer barrels. Totally different issue from slop in the receivers though. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 4:17:01 AM EDT
[#19]
It didn't affect accuracy in my Colt HBAR, the only AR I own that has any slop. But it has a lot of slop, and it was that way when I bought it new. I have always hated the feel of it so I folded up a piece of baseball card to use as a spacer. It's still in there 22 years later.
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Posted: 4/15/2014 4:45:14 AM EDT
[#20]
This is very similar to the acoustic tuning that golf club manufacturers do. It's proven that the sound of the club striking the ball plays a major role in the 'feel' of the club, without actually affecting the performance or true feel of the club in any way. Automakers do that as well, tuning exhaust systems to provide the sound that their target market wants to hear.
How many of you have put after-market exhaust systems on your vehicles, knowing full well (though hoping otherwise) that you are adding HP, but really only making the vehicle sound 'better?' |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 4:58:23 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
while "free float handguard will improve accuracy" simply because you touch it differently? 
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Posted: 4/15/2014 6:02:07 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yes sloppy is inconsistent by definition, shot 1 the upper is canned to the right, shot 2 upper canned to the left, shot 3 upper may ram into lower, shot 4 upper starts tight with lower and recoil together... you get the idea. uncontrollable inconsistency means widened group although it's logical, have i done controlled tests to verify this? nope, mines are tight... maybe someone can try Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
i think it does affect accuracy to some degree when the explosive goes off, high pressure gas pushes the bullet forward WHILE pushes the BCG/upper and lower backward, while your hands are pushing lower forward... the instant interaction between upper and lower will affect the barrel's position/orientation WHILE bullet is still in the barrel, so the sloppiness between upper and lower will affect the bullet's trajectory. since sloppiness means inconsistency, that means widening of the group Seem this would only be an issue if it were inconsistently sloppy? If the "Sloppiness" was consistent then the barrel would behave consistently every shot? yes sloppy is inconsistent by definition, shot 1 the upper is canned to the right, shot 2 upper canned to the left, shot 3 upper may ram into lower, shot 4 upper starts tight with lower and recoil together... you get the idea. uncontrollable inconsistency means widened group although it's logical, have i done controlled tests to verify this? nope, mines are tight... maybe someone can try NO, Sloppiness is "Sloppiness" by definition , we can have consistent sloppiness and inconsistent sloppiness both. If the sights are located on the upper then it wouldn't matter where the upper is located in relation to the lower, the sights would be aligned with the target.? If 1 shot the upper is "canned" to the left and the next shot it is "canned" to the right, then we have a shooter inconsistency. If the shooter applies pressure to the upper with his left hand the same for each shot, the relationship between the upper and lower will be the same for each shot? |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 7:08:06 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NO, Sloppiness is "Sloppiness" by definition , we can have consistent sloppiness and inconsistent sloppiness both. If the sights are located on the upper then it wouldn't matter where the upper is located in relation to the lower, the sights would be aligned with the target.? If 1 shot the upper is "canned" to the left and the next shot it is "canned" to the right, then we have a shooter inconsistency. If the shooter applies pressure to the upper with his left hand the same for each shot, the relationship between the upper and lower will be the same for each shot? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
i think it does affect accuracy to some degree when the explosive goes off, high pressure gas pushes the bullet forward WHILE pushes the BCG/upper and lower backward, while your hands are pushing lower forward... the instant interaction between upper and lower will affect the barrel's position/orientation WHILE bullet is still in the barrel, so the sloppiness between upper and lower will affect the bullet's trajectory. since sloppiness means inconsistency, that means widening of the group Seem this would only be an issue if it were inconsistently sloppy? If the "Sloppiness" was consistent then the barrel would behave consistently every shot? yes sloppy is inconsistent by definition, shot 1 the upper is canned to the right, shot 2 upper canned to the left, shot 3 upper may ram into lower, shot 4 upper starts tight with lower and recoil together... you get the idea. uncontrollable inconsistency means widened group although it's logical, have i done controlled tests to verify this? nope, mines are tight... maybe someone can try NO, Sloppiness is "Sloppiness" by definition , we can have consistent sloppiness and inconsistent sloppiness both. If the sights are located on the upper then it wouldn't matter where the upper is located in relation to the lower, the sights would be aligned with the target.? If 1 shot the upper is "canned" to the left and the next shot it is "canned" to the right, then we have a shooter inconsistency. If the shooter applies pressure to the upper with his left hand the same for each shot, the relationship between the upper and lower will be the same for each shot? ok think about it this way, focus on the upper, anything that interacts (force acting on it) with it during bullet's travel down the barrel will affect bullet's trajectory thus the POI, do you agree? just simple physics for example the way you hold upper, sling's pull on upper, tripod support of upper all change POI, however tiny that is, that's the main argument for free float handguard, just reduces another "inconsistency" (only "reduces" not "removes" inconsistency since FF still acts on the upper/barrel around the barrel nut) same idea, the lower is just another piece that acts (exerts force) on it, because of the sloppiness, the interactions are different during different shots, so tiny changes of POI will be different each time, thus affects grouping that establishes the sloppiness does affect accuracy, but by how much? no experimental data yet but my guess is small, probably not enough to be singled out and noticed |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 10:57:51 AM EDT
[#24]
I have heard this argument many times and various answers abound. In high accuracy Tac and benchrest bolt guns there is a reason why the barreled action is bedded to the stock, harmonics and high frequency vibrations coming from the various moving parts and the bullet as it travels down the bore. Why would a precision semi gas gun be any different? I was told by a pretty well known builder (Mike @ Tac-Ops) that errors or inconsistencies are cumulative.
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Posted: 4/15/2014 11:21:45 AM EDT
[#25]
free floating the barrel works because it isolates changes in sling tension from affecting POI. May also help because it gets rid of harmonics changes to the barrel from the hand guard touching it.
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Posted: 4/15/2014 11:38:58 AM EDT
[#26]
The same people that think "THEY" will see any accuracy difference from upper to lower play, or lack of it, are the ones shooting for sub-MOA with XM855.
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Posted: 4/15/2014 12:59:10 PM EDT
[#27]
force on upper/barrel will change POI, that's not a myth
just give you a rough estimate: the average force from explosive hot gas that pushes the bullet down the barrel is in the scale of 3000 pounds, if you exert 1 pound force perpendicular to the barrel, that could shift POI by 1/3000 which is about 1MOA
the key is not so much about precision machining, but about consistency for example, even if you have a crappy barrel that bends to the right by 3MOA, but it doesn't matter that much, since both zero and target shooting, bullets always bend to the right by 3MOA, so what's the problem? dial the zero you get an "accurate" gun (match barrel is still better, so your $$$ well spent :D) but if anything is sloppy, then every shot barrel points to different direction, then you get a bigger group |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 6:27:52 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Follow through absolutely exists and is magnified by longer barrels. Totally different issue from slop in the receivers though. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's a valid point, but lock time is longer than barrel transit time in most ARs. Barrel transit time for a 5.56mm-class round is on the order of 1/1500th of a second, or 0.0006 seconds...that's 600 microseconds. On the other hand, even a very good bolt action rifle's lock time is around 6-8 milliseconds. That's at least 10 times as long. The best data I've found on AR lock time indicates about a 16 millisecond lock time for a "rack grade" AR. For comparison, the length of time the bullet is in the barrel - and subject to the influence of the shooter's ability to hold on target - is less than the amount of time it takes for the shooter to actually feel the trigger release the sear. A "fast" reaction time is about 150 milliseconds...40 times longer than bullet transit time. Yes, a very good, very stable hold on the rifle improves accuracy, but don't overestimate the contribution of the shooter's follow through. Once you know you've fired, even before you actually hear the report, the bullet is long gone from the barrel. There is no such thing as "follow through" on a gun. The only things that effect the accuracy of a shooter are the things done BEFORE the primer ignites - after it ignites, as you correctly point out, everything which can effect accuracy happens too slowly to make the least difference. This is simply the laws of physics. MythBusters took on "follow through" indirectly when they busted the scenes in "Wanted" where the assassins "curve the flight of the bullet" by twisting the gun while shooting. They ramped it up beyond human capabilities and wherever the barrel is pointed when the primer ignites is where the bullet will go. Before someone brings it up, a "flinch" is a voluntary reaction initiated by the shooter before primer ignition - they move the point of aim due to fear of recoil/sound before the primer ignites. A "loose" fit between AR-15 upper & lower falls into the same category of a shooter generated failure in point of aim caused by a belief the "gun moves" while they are pulling the trigger. Someone long before me summed this up best, "any AR-15 where the 'slop' is enough to effect the outcome is a gun you should be afraid is going to come apart while firing." BTW, I won't debate those who have "feelings" contrary to this reality. If you believe the 'slop' does effect the outcome, take your "sloppy" AR-15 to a public range on a weekend and promise you will give it to anyone who can shoot consistently tight groups with it. You'll find more than a few folks willing to take the challenge and someone who will be best with it ... and will GIVE IT A GOOD HOME. Oh, yeah ... for the "why do the sponsored guys" OP - because when someone ELSE is paying the bills, 99% of people can think of something else for which the sponsor can pay. Follow through absolutely exists and is magnified by longer barrels. Totally different issue from slop in the receivers though. What you THINK of as "follow through" is nothing other than continuing to do EVERYTHING you HAVE to be doing BEFORE primer ignition in order to be accurate and consistent. Visualize building a rig that will hold a rifle absolutely on target but is designed to release the rifle and let it free fall at the exact same time as the primer is struck. If we calculate the time the bullet takes to traverse both a 16" and 24" barrel at the really low end of the standard loads (e.g. 2,500 feet per second) we can then calculate how far the rifle would drop due to gravity by the time the bullet exits the barrel (yes, internet trolls, we'll get the trigger release mechanism pulled out of the trigger guard in time) 16" barrel time = 0.00053 seconds distance = 0.000055 inches 24" barrel time = 0.00080 seconds distance = 0.000123 inches or roughly 12 one hundred thousandths of an inch or even more roughly 1 ten thousandth of an inch What's the difference between the human and our "free fall/no follow through" rig? The rig will be FAR more accurate and consistent than almost any human on the face of the Earth. Even the most accurate human will do a variety of small things differently each time before primer ignition that will effect their accuracy and consistency. I have a Geissele High Speed National Match trigger that I find to be perfection because it is NOT possible to anticipate the trigger break point - so the trigger effectively disappears from my process. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 6:50:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Can you tell me why benchrest shooters invest so much in making sure the gun is undisturbed during recoil?
If follow through didn't exist free recoil sure wouldn't matter to them. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 9:10:14 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you tell me why benchrest shooters invest so much in making sure the gun is undisturbed during recoil? If follow through didn't exist free recoil sure wouldn't matter to them. that's to make sure the forces acting on the barrel DURING the time bullet travels down the barrel are consistent shot to shot not after bullet clears the barrel, after bullet exits nothing matters |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 10:50:11 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you tell me why benchrest shooters invest so much in making sure the gun is undisturbed during recoil? If follow through didn't exist free recoil sure wouldn't matter to them. An equally relevant question would be, "Why do Catholics genuflect and kneel so much?" Both questions have no basis in science. Both are founded on a belief system. In a 24" barrel, the bullet has exited BEFORE the shooter's reaction to the recoil is going to matter in any way, shape or form. Link included for a site that is compiling an online statistical universe. With over 8 million measurements, the folks in the 99.9% (with repeatable fast performance times) come in at 100 milliseconds ... also known as 0.1 seconds ... or one tenth of a second ... at which point the 2,500 foot per second bullet above is most of the way to a 100 yard target. I don't question Catholics or bench shooters about their belief systems. http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php |
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Posted: 4/16/2014 4:15:37 AM EDT
[#32]
While I have no idea of the science I do know when I place a accuwedge on my lower I notice a slight improvement especially when doing rapid shots. The groupings do not spread as much (I am talking very slightly but noticeable). Not sure if it's a placebo effect or really something going on.
Otherwise doing one round and pausing before the next shot to aim, I don't notice any difference. |
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Posted: 4/16/2014 5:24:35 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An equally relevant question would be, "Why do Catholics genuflect and kneel so much?" Both questions have no basis in science. Both are founded on a belief system. In a 24" barrel, the bullet has exited BEFORE the shooter's reaction to the recoil is going to matter in any way, shape or form. Link included for a site that is compiling an online statistical universe. With over 8 million measurements, the folks in the 99.9% (with repeatable fast performance times) come in at 100 milliseconds ... also known as 0.1 seconds ... or one tenth of a second ... at which point the 2,500 foot per second bullet above is most of the way to a 100 yard target. I don't question Catholics or bench shooters about their belief systems. http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Can you tell me why benchrest shooters invest so much in making sure the gun is undisturbed during recoil? If follow through didn't exist free recoil sure wouldn't matter to them. An equally relevant question would be, "Why do Catholics genuflect and kneel so much?" Both questions have no basis in science. Both are founded on a belief system. In a 24" barrel, the bullet has exited BEFORE the shooter's reaction to the recoil is going to matter in any way, shape or form. Link included for a site that is compiling an online statistical universe. With over 8 million measurements, the folks in the 99.9% (with repeatable fast performance times) come in at 100 milliseconds ... also known as 0.1 seconds ... or one tenth of a second ... at which point the 2,500 foot per second bullet above is most of the way to a 100 yard target. I don't question Catholics or bench shooters about their belief systems. http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php A gun that is bolted down will not necessarily shoot to the same place as one that can recoil. When they sight in big double guns they always fire the last shots offhand. Heavy recoiling guns make the phenomenon much more apparent. |
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Posted: 4/16/2014 5:25:20 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that's to make sure the forces acting on the barrel DURING the time bullet travels down the barrel are consistent shot to shot not after bullet clears the barrel, after bullet exits nothing matters Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Can you tell me why benchrest shooters invest so much in making sure the gun is undisturbed during recoil? If follow through didn't exist free recoil sure wouldn't matter to them. that's to make sure the forces acting on the barrel DURING the time bullet travels down the barrel are consistent shot to shot not after bullet clears the barrel, after bullet exits nothing matters Right, we are talking about time in barrel. |
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Posted: 4/16/2014 7:49:48 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right, we are talking about time in barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Can you tell me why benchrest shooters invest so much in making sure the gun is undisturbed during recoil? If follow through didn't exist free recoil sure wouldn't matter to them. that's to make sure the forces acting on the barrel DURING the time bullet travels down the barrel are consistent shot to shot not after bullet clears the barrel, after bullet exits nothing matters Right, we are talking about time in barrel. during that 1ms, anything that exerts force on the barrel will absolutely change POI, if that force is inconsistent shot to shot due to slop, it will widen group |
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Posted: 4/16/2014 7:55:41 AM EDT
[#36]
Honestly--I know it does nothing to affect accuracy, doesnt mean I dont like my Rifles rattle free. I'm an engineer, I understand tolerances. However--my rifle, my money--I'll make it tighter than a nun's bug if it makes me happy.
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Posted: 4/16/2014 10:16:03 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A gun that is bolted down will not necessarily shoot to the same place as one that can recoil. When they sight in big double guns they always fire the last shots offhand. Heavy recoiling guns make the phenomenon much more apparent. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Can you tell me why benchrest shooters invest so much in making sure the gun is undisturbed during recoil? If follow through didn't exist free recoil sure wouldn't matter to them. An equally relevant question would be, "Why do Catholics genuflect and kneel so much?" Both questions have no basis in science. Both are founded on a belief system. In a 24" barrel, the bullet has exited BEFORE the shooter's reaction to the recoil is going to matter in any way, shape or form. Link included for a site that is compiling an online statistical universe. With over 8 million measurements, the folks in the 99.9% (with repeatable fast performance times) come in at 100 milliseconds ... also known as 0.1 seconds ... or one tenth of a second ... at which point the 2,500 foot per second bullet above is most of the way to a 100 yard target. I don't question Catholics or bench shooters about their belief systems. http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php A gun that is bolted down will not necessarily shoot to the same place as one that can recoil. When they sight in big double guns they always fire the last shots offhand. Heavy recoiling guns make the phenomenon much more apparent. Two comments: 1) Nowhere in my comments did I state anything about bolting a gun down. I have two separate rigs I use for different situations - neither one BOLTS the gun down - both allow for recoil. While the recoil impulse travels through the gun as the bullet is exiting the barrel - there is not a living soul who can react in 1 ten thousandth of a second. As stated previously, it is EVERYTHING the shooter does before primer ignition that counts - "follow through" is a myth. 2) The facts of science are obviously of limited interest to you since you keep trying to find exceptions to them. Good luck with your genuflecting. |
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Posted: 4/16/2014 3:55:23 PM EDT
[#38]
My concept of "follow through" in shooting is managing the weapon in recoil. Maintaining control of the muzzle, maintaining grip on every part that you're touching, maintaining eyes open and (hopefully) aligned with the target through the sights, etc. Trigger control is part of this: if you flinch off of the trigger, you can cause as much problem as flinching when pulling the trigger.
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Posted: 4/16/2014 4:47:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The AMU Armorers advise that this procedure doesn’t improve accuracy, but it makes the shooter feel more confident about their rifle. Formal testing conducted at Rodman Laboratories in the 1970s verified that accuracy wasn’t affected by normal receiver tolerances. The fact is that the bullet exits the bore before movement of the receivers produces a measurable effect. Armalite Tech Note 55: Receiver Tightness AMU uses accu-wedges in their 600 and 1000 meter rifles, my grandfather and I go hang out at the shop every now and then (he was a coach for the AMU for many years). Whether for shooter confidence or accuracy I'm not really sure. The psychological aspect of competitive shooting (or any competitive event for that matter) is so huge I'm sure the elimination of movement in the receivers helps the shooter to some degree, brain games or not. |
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Posted: 4/16/2014 5:04:44 PM EDT
[#40]
well, I just spent $502 (includes FFL transfer fee) for a Colt lower receiver assembly to get rid of it. It worked, but from what everyone says I just got lucky that it fits better than the lower that was on my Vltor MUR Upper. It has my second tightest stainless barrel in that upper, and it seemed worth the investment to me. Whatever, I can sleep at night now. I will now try this Stag lower on a PSA upper and hope the third time's the charm.
You can see what happened here, BRD caused me to think on the slop, and think, and it became (or is about to become) another rifle. Insidious, this disease. |
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Posted: 4/16/2014 7:34:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
well, I just spent $502 (includes FFL transfer fee) for a Colt lower receiver assembly to get rid of it. It worked, but from what everyone says I just got lucky that it fits better than the lower that was on my Vltor MUR Upper. It has my second tightest stainless barrel in that upper, and it seemed worth the investment to me. Whatever, I can sleep at night now. I will now try this Stag lower on a PSA upper and hope the third time's the charm. You can see what happened here, BRD caused me to think on the slop, and think, and it became (or is about to become) another rifle. Insidious, this disease. I had two "slop-o-matic" upper/lower combos. Replaced the upper receivers with parts bought from name-brand finishers for cheap, replaced the originals, and no more slop. Can't say I shoot any better, but they don't rattle when I shake `em. My point is that the slop is a function of tolerance stacking between parts made by disparate manufacturers, and the way to fix it - if it bothers - is to swap parts until you get a match. HTH
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Posted: 4/16/2014 8:04:59 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My concept of "follow through" in shooting is managing the weapon in recoil. Maintaining control of the muzzle, maintaining grip on every part that you're touching, maintaining eyes open and (hopefully) aligned with the target through the sights, etc. Trigger control is part of this: if you flinch off of the trigger, you can cause as much problem as flinching when pulling the trigger. i do not like the "follow through" concept, whatever that means, for human interaction, the only thing that matters is right at the moment the trigger breaks, nothing before that or after that matters. Barliman is right in a sense the bullet goes out the barrel in 1/1000 sec, you can't do anything to intentionally affect it but, please note mechanical forces among metals will be even faster than bullet, you can consider those interactions "instant", to them the bullet travels almost in slow motion: the gas pushing it, barrel holding it, rifling carving it and turning it, the barrel bends and twists, upper hits lower, lower pushes our hands and is pushed back (not consciously, depends only on how hard we grip at the moment), lower so pushes upper and the barrel and changes its direction... if any of these interactions are inconsistent from shot to shot, you lose accuracy, that's why the slop between upper and lower does affect accuracy. and of course, the most important piece that's inconsistent shot to shot is ... the bullet
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Posted: 4/17/2014 3:54:19 AM EDT
[#43]
I just have to add an observation. For every "my upper and lower fit too loosely" thread here, there's at least one "My RRA rifle is way too hard to close!!!!" thread. Rock River's uppers and lowers are milled for essentially an interference fit (or at least really close to that), and when new, they are often very, very hard to open and close. Once they break in, they go together like silk, and there's little change in the fit afterward. I think the only really functionally important thing about sloppy upper/lower fit is that with movement you have the chance for wear, which can make those parts fit even worse. If there is substantial movement (not just wiggle) between the two parts, maybe you need to do something to reduce that. And if the gun starts out that way, you definitely need to do something about it. But "daylight between the upper and lower" isn't a functional problem, just a cosmetic issue.
The cheapest and easiest "de-slop" fix I ever heard of was to put a foam earplug in the takedown lug space in the lower. The lug squishes the earplug and the earplug provides some tension on the lug, reducing movement to almost nothing - for pennies. As far as I'm concerned, if that does the job, call it done. |
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