Site Notices
10/24/2014 2:42:22 PM
ARCHIVED ARCHIVED
  Previous Page
Page:  / 2
Author
Message
Pat_H
Offline
Posts: 115
Feedback: 0% (0)
Posted: 5/31/2013 4:47:49 PM
This is a new/old topic. I searched and found this about the use of Loctite on the castle nut on the receiver extension tube nut.

It seems that a well known maker of AR-15s claims that use of Blue Loctite not only on the castle nut, but on the tube threads itself if a standard assembly procedure and any difficulty in disassembly is not their fault. The maker is Rock River Arms. The fact that the threads on the tube were ruined on disassembly because the Loctite needed heat for disassembly, which RRA didn't not advise anyone, did not make any difference. They are refusing to honor the warranty. The tube eventually came out of the receiver, with the nut still unmoved on the tube.

No, this is not my rifle, it belongs to a friend of mine, who may join this thread later today. I'll send him the link. My friend, who I'll call Montana Bob, is not a stranger to tools, he owned his own business for over 35 years selling new power tools and small engine repairs. He's no stranger to cast or forged aluminum and the requirements for care thereof. He is familiar with and uses torque wrenches on assemblies.

Frankly, I'm appalled that RRA won't warranty these parts which were assembled incorrectly in my opinion.

I'd like to know what others think about this.
albatrossarmament
Offline
Posts: 2431
Feedback: 100% (71)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 5:17:10 PM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2013 5:17:45 PM by albatrossarmament]
Buy a rifle thats assembled to any specs other then mil-spec, deal with issues down the road.



So what has this lesson cost him? A receiver extension and castle nut?
bloodsport2885
Use of live ammunition is now authorized
Online
Posts: 8996
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 5:45:37 PM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2013 5:55:49 PM by bloodsport2885]
And Ford wouldn't warranty a transmission rebuild you did in your front yard either. So what? Once you modify a product, you're on your own.

As good as you think he is with tools in relation to small engines and basic machinery principles, he's not a gunsmith and accepted the liability as soon as he decided to do it himself. He simply did not have the knowledge and experience necessary to work on this specific type of equipment.

If he had used a licensed gunsmith to do this job he would either have a rifle properly disassembled and reassembled or he would have recourse with the smith's insurance. RRA wouldn't warranty it either if the smith screwed it up.
Man has the right to self defense. All those who would use it for nefarious means may they rest in peace. All those who use it to pretect the innocent, may the live in peace.
Pat_H
Offline
Posts: 116
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 10:26:22 PM
Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:
And Ford wouldn't warranty a transmission rebuild you did in your front yard either. So what? Once you modify a product, you're on your own.

As good as you think he is with tools in relation to small engines and basic machinery principles, he's not a gunsmith and accepted the liability as soon as he decided to do it himself. He simply did not have the knowledge and experience necessary to work on this specific type of equipment.

If he had used a licensed gunsmith to do this job he would either have a rifle properly disassembled and reassembled or he would have recourse with the smith's insurance. RRA wouldn't warranty it either if the smith screwed it up.


It's not a "screw up", it's standard disassembly procedure with the proper tools. If I remove the bolt and find it improperly made, it's a factory defect, not mine. And, since I was an army unit armorer, I can tell you that using Loctite to install the receiver extension tube is improper assembly.

So, let's try again, shall we?

Anyone else have this issue?
Russ4777
San Jose, CA
Offline
Posts: 4450
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 10:34:25 PM
Put down the bottle of Loctite and back away. This shit is not necessary anywhere on an AR except the screws of an adjustable trigger.
1st Cav Div, B 5/7
Vietnam/Cambodia
1970
Lancelot
Member
NRAMilitary
Offline
Posts: 17537
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 10:42:53 PM
RRA has used this process for a long time. There is a way to remove it properly. Did whoever tried to take it off use heat? What tools did they use?

If the proper tools and process were used, the castle nut could be removed properly. But if you just try to muscle it off, you're going to screw it up. And then, it is not the fault of RRA.
offroader1006
Member
Offline
Posts: 1615
Feedback: 98% (45)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 11:07:16 PM
Originally Posted By Pat_H:
Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:
And Ford wouldn't warranty a transmission rebuild you did in your front yard either. So what? Once you modify a product, you're on your own.

As good as you think he is with tools in relation to small engines and basic machinery principles, he's not a gunsmith and accepted the liability as soon as he decided to do it himself. He simply did not have the knowledge and experience necessary to work on this specific type of equipment.

If he had used a licensed gunsmith to do this job he would either have a rifle properly disassembled and reassembled or he would have recourse with the smith's insurance. RRA wouldn't warranty it either if the smith screwed it up.


It's not a "screw up", it's standard disassembly procedure with the proper tools.


Every AR manufacturer is different. There is no "standard" for disassembling an AR. If you choose to disassemble a weapon, you assume responsibility for anything that goes wrong. I can't warranty a head bolt I break on a new car when I'm taking it apart.

If you don't know how to remove something properly, that's on you.


If I remove the bolt and find it improperly made, it's a factory defect, not mine. And, since I was an army unit armorer, I can tell you that using Loctite to install the receiver extension tube is improper assembly.


Improper for the Army. RRA is not an Army contractor.
HOGAR
Offline
Posts: 12
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 11:20:46 PM
a couple of Manufactures use Blue Loctite on that assembly and I think its a great Idea. We actually did this in the Military. Was not standard operating Procedure for most but I know many Infantry units used blue Loctite. But then again Infantry Soldiers are a lot harder on weapons then most other units in the Army.it Started with the old beat up A1 and continued once we received the A2
Direct-Drive
Offline
Posts: 4318
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 11:26:03 PM
It's well known that the "consumer grade" ARs use some assembly techniques that are not in compliance with the military standard and use some "commercial" parts when doing so.

RRA, DPMS, Delton and Bushmaster are examples of these types of ARs.
Direct-Drive
Offline
Posts: 4319
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 11:29:30 PM
Originally Posted By HOGAR:
a couple of Manufactures use Blue Loctite on that assembly and I think its a great Idea. We actually did this in the Military. Was not standard operating Procedure for most but I know many Infantry units used blue Loctite. But then again Infantry Soldiers are a lot harder on weapons then most other units in the Army.it Started with the old beat up A1 and continued once we received the A2

No.
It is a schitty idea.
Good for you that you didn't get caught

MajorJustice
Leave the beaver here
Offline
Posts: 495
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 11:32:41 PM
Yeah, if the Castle nut isn't staked, there will often be some loctite to deal with. Most gun smiths worth their salt know the assembly procedures of all the major AR manufacturers, and most of the smaller manufacturers (almost every gunsmith in America should know what to expect with Colts, Bushmasters, RRAs, S&W and DPMS) - 95% of the time letting an unlicensed or amateur gunsmith work on your gun voids the warranty. You see where we're going with this?

It sounds like it's 100% the fault of the guy who didn't know what he was doing. RRA is not going to pay for it, and you're not going to find too many people that are sympathetic to your plight,

If RRA advocated do-it-yourself installation and repairs, it would be a different story. They don't expect you to buy a gun to take it apart though - and removing the castle nut is well past field stripping.
Gunfront.com

"That gun is not loaded, I can see your pin"
GoRebels
Member
Military
Offline
Posts: 6401
Feedback: 100% (21)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 11:38:38 PM
My goodness I love it!! There's one in every bunch....
halfmoonclip
Offline
Posts: 2157
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 11:43:47 PM
Call me crazy, but isn't BLUE Loctite supposed to come off with a little arm? Red Loctite being a different creature, requiring heat to make it come loose?
BTW, what was the purpose of attempting to remove the buffer tube in this case?
Moon
Medicfrost
Bolt Face Extremist
NRA
Offline
Posts: 4624
Feedback: 100% (152)
Link To This Post
Posted: 5/31/2013 11:55:16 PM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2013 11:58:21 PM by Medicfrost]
Originally Posted By halfmoonclip:
Call me crazy, but isn't BLUE Loctite supposed to come off with a little arm? Red Loctite being a different creature, requiring heat to make it come loose?
BTW, what was the purpose of attempting to remove the buffer tube in this case?
Moon


This is what I'm confused about.

MajorJustice
Leave the beaver here
Offline
Posts: 497
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/1/2013 12:00:31 AM
Originally Posted By Medicfrost:
Originally Posted By halfmoonclip:
Call me crazy, but isn't BLUE Loctite supposed to come off with a little arm? Red Loctite being a different creature, requiring heat to make it come loose?
BTW, what was the purpose of attempting to remove the buffer tube in this case?
Moon


This is what I'm confused about.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/Medicfrost/Loctite.png


Same way that Blue Loctite isn't supposed to work above a certain temperature (but the instances when Red Loctite does a great job when Blue Loctite would fail are very few) but does most of the time if Red Loctite does, and the same way that Red Loctite will break free without heat if you only use a small amount. Loctite doesn't work exactly as advertised.
Gunfront.com

"That gun is not loaded, I can see your pin"
PFC
Offline
Posts: 2259
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/1/2013 4:48:21 PM
Sorry for your buddy, but there is no ‘standard’ for civilian ARs.
TCBA_Joe
2 Round Burst
Military
Offline
Posts: 8221
Feedback: 100% (53)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/1/2013 5:29:38 PM
Oh man, I hope you never have to work on a KAC URXII. Rail loctited to the receiver threads.
Please, call me Joe

There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic

Jack Ryan 2016
HOGAR
Offline
Posts: 15
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/1/2013 10:34:09 PM
Originally Posted By Direct-Drive:
Originally Posted By HOGAR:
a couple of Manufactures use Blue Loctite on that assembly and I think its a great Idea. We actually did this in the Military. Was not standard operating Procedure for most but I know many Infantry units used blue Loctite. But then again Infantry Soldiers are a lot harder on weapons then most other units in the Army.it Started with the old beat up A1 and continued once we received the A2

No.
It is a schitty idea.
Good for you that you didn't get caught



Schitty Idea is your opinion but you know what they say about opinions
not sure who we would get caught by it was standard for many Infantry Units

RMS556
Offline
Posts: 32
Feedback: 100% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/2/2013 8:35:30 AM
Originally Posted By Pat_H:
This is a new/old topic. I searched and found this about the use of Loctite on the castle nut on the receiver extension tube nut.

It seems that a well known maker of AR-15s claims that use of Blue Loctite not only on the castle nut, but on the tube threads itself if a standard assembly procedure and any difficulty in disassembly is not their fault. The maker is Rock River Arms.


RRA doesn't know what they are talking about. The only thing that should be used on the receiver extension and castle nut is some grease preferably anti-seize grease to help keep the steel castle nut and aluminum receiver extension from corroding together. The castle nut is secured using a stock wrench with a torque wrench hooked to it and torqued to 40ft/lbs and then the castle nut is staked. If you don't stake it it will come loose. Your friend may know tools but doesn't sound like he knows the AR. IMO RRA isn't responsible to fix this and i suggest your friend by the new parts and read up on the proper way to assemble the receiver extension. There are good videos on the subject available as well.

WI57
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Offline
Posts: 8369
Feedback: 100% (15)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/2/2013 12:19:10 PM
So your friend damaged the buffer tube removing it and wants RRA to replace the tube?

Your friend has small engine repair experience? That has nothing to do with working on weapons.

Why was he removing the receiver extension anyways? To replace it? If so throw it away and install the new nut/tube however you see fit.

Let's see some pictures of how you got it off.
Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting.
MadProfessor
Gwar rules!!!
Military
Offline
Posts: 7426
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/2/2013 12:32:53 PM
My RRA didn't have any loctite on the threads, but I bought it about 10 years ago.



That said, if I couldn't get the castle nut off with a little muscle, the first thing that I reach for is some heat.
They're given me about 10,000 watts a day.
SleeplessInTexas
Member
Offline
Posts: 348
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/2/2013 1:08:35 PM
[Last Edit: 6/2/2013 1:14:47 PM by SleeplessInTexas]
I removed the receiver extension from a new RRA yesterday. Three seconds of heat from a MAPP torch and the castle nut came off easily with the proper wrench.

I'm not going to defend the way RRA or anyone else assembles but working on these rifles requires the proper tools and it's own skill set.

Edit: I should have mentioned when I put the castle nut back on.... I used blue Loctite. (been doing it that way for years)
TCBA_Joe
2 Round Burst
Military
Offline
Posts: 8222
Feedback: 100% (53)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/2/2013 1:08:53 PM
Originally Posted By Pat_H:
Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:
And Ford wouldn't warranty a transmission rebuild you did in your front yard either. So what? Once you modify a product, you're on your own.

As good as you think he is with tools in relation to small engines and basic machinery principles, he's not a gunsmith and accepted the liability as soon as he decided to do it himself. He simply did not have the knowledge and experience necessary to work on this specific type of equipment.

If he had used a licensed gunsmith to do this job he would either have a rifle properly disassembled and reassembled or he would have recourse with the smith's insurance. RRA wouldn't warranty it either if the smith screwed it up.


It's not a "screw up", it's standard disassembly procedure with the proper tools. If I remove the bolt and find it improperly made, it's a factory defect, not mine. And, since I was an army unit armorer, I can tell you that using Loctite to install the receiver extension tube is improper assembly.

So, let's try again, shall we?

Anyone else have this issue?


Being a military armorer means you have experience working on military weapons, not EVERY AR pattern rifle there is.

Outside of US military standard issue there's not "standard" for disassembly or assembly. Which is why most of the military "armorers" I know are clueless about weapon design, repair, and operating theory and can do little real armorer's work outside of swapping the sling swivel next to the front sight from left to right. The guys I know that have known the most about fixing guns had multiple certifications from various manufacturers including BM, Colt, and Sig. Learning some new technique or piece of theory with each class. I know incredibly knowledgeable guys in the industry who do things many "book smart" people would think backwards. I've also followed come companies instructions only to find out the instructions result in bad things (torque values).

Many reputable companies do things differently for a myriad of reasons.
KAC uses loctite on their receiver extensions and not staking, as well as their URX rails and barrel nuts.
JP doesn't stake their carrier keys.
Different companies use different compounds for putting the bbl nut on the receiver, everything from CLP to Aero grease.

You being a unit armorer means jack squat. A real armorer knows to use some heat to loosen parts before destroying them, regardless of knowing if there's a thread locking compound.
Please, call me Joe

There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic

Jack Ryan 2016
TCBA_Joe
2 Round Burst
Military
Offline
Posts: 8223
Feedback: 100% (53)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/2/2013 1:18:29 PM
Originally Posted By RMS556:
Originally Posted By Pat_H:
This is a new/old topic. I searched and found this about the use of Loctite on the castle nut on the receiver extension tube nut.

It seems that a well known maker of AR-15s claims that use of Blue Loctite not only on the castle nut, but on the tube threads itself if a standard assembly procedure and any difficulty in disassembly is not their fault. The maker is Rock River Arms.


RRA doesn't know what they are talking about. The only thing that should be used on the receiver extension and castle nut is some grease preferably anti-seize grease to help keep the steel castle nut and aluminum receiver extension from corroding together. The castle nut is secured using a stock wrench with a torque wrench hooked to it and torqued to 40ft/lbs and then the castle nut is staked. If you don't stake it it will come loose. Your friend may know tools but doesn't sound like he knows the AR. IMO RRA isn't responsible to fix this and i suggest your friend by the new parts and read up on the proper way to assemble the receiver extension. There are good videos on the subject available as well.



You're thinking of the receiver threads and barrel nut. The different materials (steel barrel nut aluminum threads) ALONG with the heat (which can hit 700 degrees under the right circumstances) is what can cause galvanic corrosion. However, the possibility of this actually happening is somewhat debatable.

The castle nut on the receiver extension needs to be tightened down, and either staked or secured with a threadlocking compound. I've never used a torque wrench on a castle nut and don't really see the need.

If a part is not staked, and it can't be removed with a reasonable amount of force, then get a heat gun (torches can be too much direct heat for the inexperienced) and apply heat. Even if there's no threadlock the heat will help loosen over torqued parts.
Please, call me Joe

There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic

Jack Ryan 2016
RMS556
Offline
Posts: 36
Feedback: 100% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/2/2013 1:54:13 PM
[Last Edit: 6/2/2013 1:55:08 PM by RMS556]
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By RMS556:
Originally Posted By Pat_H:
This is a new/old topic. I searched and found this about the use of Loctite on the castle nut on the receiver extension tube nut.

It seems that a well known maker of AR-15s claims that use of Blue Loctite not only on the castle nut, but on the tube threads itself if a standard assembly procedure and any difficulty in disassembly is not their fault. The maker is Rock River Arms.


RRA doesn't know what they are talking about. The only thing that should be used on the receiver extension and castle nut is some grease preferably anti-seize grease to help keep the steel castle nut and aluminum receiver extension from corroding together. The castle nut is secured using a stock wrench with a torque wrench hooked to it and torqued to 40ft/lbs and then the castle nut is staked. If you don't stake it it will come loose. Your friend may know tools but doesn't sound like he knows the AR. IMO RRA isn't responsible to fix this and i suggest your friend by the new parts and read up on the proper way to assemble the receiver extension. There are good videos on the subject available as well.




You're thinking of the receiver threads and barrel nut. The different materials (steel barrel nut aluminum threads) ALONG with the heat (which can hit 700 degrees under the right circumstances) is what can cause galvanic corrosion. However, the possibility of this actually happening is somewhat debatable.

The castle nut on the receiver extension needs to be tightened down, and either staked or secured with a threadlocking compound. I've never used a torque wrench on a castle nut and don't really see the need.

If a part is not staked, and it can't be removed with a reasonable amount of force, then get a heat gun (torches can be too much direct heat for the inexperienced) and apply heat. Even if there's no threadlock the heat will help loosen over torqued parts.


No i'm NOT thinking of the receiver. My statement stands as is. I know what i'm talking about and if you use thread locking compound you clearly don't. The castle nut is to be torqued and then staked and anti-seize grease is applied to the receiver extension threads. You might want to do a little research on the subject.
TCBA_Joe
2 Round Burst
Military
Offline
Posts: 8224
Feedback: 100% (53)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/2/2013 2:34:27 PM
[Last Edit: 6/2/2013 2:36:58 PM by TCBA_Joe]
Originally Posted By RMS556:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By RMS556:
Originally Posted By Pat_H:
This is a new/old topic. I searched and found this about the use of Loctite on the castle nut on the receiver extension tube nut.

It seems that a well known maker of AR-15s claims that use of Blue Loctite not only on the castle nut, but on the tube threads itself if a standard assembly procedure and any difficulty in disassembly is not their fault. The maker is Rock River Arms.


RRA doesn't know what they are talking about. The only thing that should be used on the receiver extension and castle nut is some grease preferably anti-seize grease to help keep the steel castle nut and aluminum receiver extension from corroding together. The castle nut is secured using a stock wrench with a torque wrench hooked to it and torqued to 40ft/lbs and then the castle nut is staked. If you don't stake it it will come loose. Your friend may know tools but doesn't sound like he knows the AR. IMO RRA isn't responsible to fix this and i suggest your friend by the new parts and read up on the proper way to assemble the receiver extension. There are good videos on the subject available as well.




You're thinking of the receiver threads and barrel nut. The different materials (steel barrel nut aluminum threads) ALONG with the heat (which can hit 700 degrees under the right circumstances) is what can cause galvanic corrosion. However, the possibility of this actually happening is somewhat debatable.

The castle nut on the receiver extension needs to be tightened down, and either staked or secured with a threadlocking compound. I've never used a torque wrench on a castle nut and don't really see the need.

If a part is not staked, and it can't be removed with a reasonable amount of force, then get a heat gun (torches can be too much direct heat for the inexperienced) and apply heat. Even if there's no threadlock the heat will help loosen over torqued parts.


No i'm NOT thinking of the receiver. My statement stands as is. I know what i'm talking about and if you use thread locking compound you clearly don't. The castle nut is to be torqued and then staked and anti-seize grease is applied to the receiver extension threads. You might want to do a little research on the subject.


I work with ARs and other firearms for a living, and not at a gunstore or some small time gun smith shop. I'd be happy to have a moderator vet me (again).

I'm aware the TM calls for it, but like some assembly steps it's more mil vs reality. Some big places do it, some big places don't.
Please, call me Joe

There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic

Jack Ryan 2016
  Previous Page
Page:  / 2
ARCHIVED ARCHIVED