Who wants to return their PSA BCG's because they are not happy with the quality of workmanship?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Who wants to return their PSA BCG's because they are not happy with the quality of workmanship? (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 5/10/2013 5:08:55 PM EDT

This poll is for those who have bought the PSA M-16 BCG's with the SKU number 8784, And they are concerned with all the questions that now surround the BCG's.
Do you think that PSA sould allow those who are not happy to return them?
Should those that bought them just take this as a learning experience?
My concerns on waiting is after so many days PSA will not warrenty them, They break at a bad time, There are problems with them and I don't know about it because Im not here monitoring AR-15.com for problems with these BCG's, As stated already mine may not see use for over a year or more.
If these BCG's are supposed to be mil spec, does anyone think price aside that the military would use these BCG's or not with the issues that have been brought up
about them? I see several issues that make these bcg's non mil spec.

My BCG's were bought for SHTF, Future use, And backups, And I may not need them for a year or more and I would hate to find out then or the hardway that these BCG's in question were
promblematic and the warrenty was expired. I want to nip this on the bud now, not later.
The problems that have been pointed out are:
The gas key is questionable as to how its made and the hardness of it.
The bolts that hold the gas key to the carrier are Taiwan made.
The Torque on the gas key bolts are not correct.
The staking job is not what I and others see as a quaity staking job.
No sealant between the gas key and carrier.
Neither screw was torqued to spec. The front screw was 37 inch pounds while the rear screw was 79 inch pounds.

Here is what another vender said.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/611732_Got_my_PSA_BCG_today__Pics.html&page=4#i6028733

- No Loctite visible any where.

- No Permatex Aviation sealant visible any where.

- Carrier key was not perfectly flat on the bottom surface which mates to the carrier.

- Carrier key screw holes are oversize.

- Staking wasn't very effective.

- Carrier key is junk quality

Please refrain comments about other PSA products that you have, this is for PSA SKU# 8784 M-16 Bolt carrier group only.

Posted: 5/10/2013 5:14:31 PM EDT

[#1]

Disregard, voted in the poll.

Posted: 5/10/2013 5:30:21 PM EDT

[#2]

for those of us who haven't heard the gripes but have purchased 8784 lately, could you please post some quick links in this thread of what you're referring to? thanks a bunch!

Posted: 5/10/2013 5:40:00 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
for those of us who haven't heard the gripes but have purchased 8784 lately, could you please post some quick links in this thread of what you're referring to? thanks a bunch!

Here are two threads.
The first thread shows some concerns.
The second thread has concerns brought up all through it, Its very very long and you will have to dig for the concerns and pictures. Start around April 5th and up on the 2nd thread below.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/611732_Got_my_PSA_BCG_today__Pics.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/595389_In_Stock_Bolt_Carriers.html

ETA , check out this post by another vendor that is very knowledgeable in this area.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/611732_Got_my_PSA_BCG_today__Pics.html&page=4#i6028733

Posted: 5/10/2013 5:41:15 PM EDT

[#4]

I would alter the OP a bit.

These are not "PSA BCG's." These are BCG's purchased from PSA, but not their branded BCG's.

Oh, and

before PSA forwards your name to the "appropriate channels."

Posted: 5/10/2013 5:49:24 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
for those of us who haven't heard the gripes but have purchased 8784 lately, could you please post some quick links in this thread of what you're referring to? thanks a bunch!

Here are two threads.
The first thread shows some concerns.
The second thread has concerns brought up all through it, Its very very long and you will have to dig for the concerns and pictures. Start around April 5th and up on the 2nd thread below.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/611732_Got_my_PSA_BCG_today__Pics.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/595389_In_Stock_Bolt_Carriers.html

Thanks for this. i'll read up on it shortly. when is poll closing or is it continuous?

Posted: 5/10/2013 6:25:37 PM EDT

[#6]

ACCORDING to the REP, it was just a few bolts/BCG's. His words not mine

Posted: 5/10/2013 6:37:38 PM EDT

[#7]

I purchased one through another user on the EE that seems to have the same issues as noted. I can honestly say I'm not too concerned. Obviously I'll find out if I'm wrong if something bad happens, but I highly doubt it will.

I've done some research and can't seem to find any documented incidents of issues with MIM gas keys.

Also on the Taiwanese screws, I can definitely say I'm not too concerned. The gun it's going in isn't a SD/HD rifle so no worries about reliability there, and if they were to fail, I don't see it causing any catastrophic damage short of the gun going down for the day.

All in all we'll see where it goes, the gun probably won't be shot for a while, but once it does I'll make sure to post some results.

Posted: 5/10/2013 6:38:54 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
ACCORDING to the REP, it was just a few bolts/BCG's. His words not mine

I think your confused with the bolts being marked with a M and not being marked.
That was another fiasco that happened with these BCG's but it seems PSA straightened that out.

Posted: 5/10/2013 6:42:32 PM EDT

[#9]

So BCG's with the PSA markings on them are not affected correct?

Posted: 5/10/2013 6:43:55 PM EDT

[#10]

Any idea how a normal person without special tools can torque this to the right spec? Of course I have allen wrenches, just nothing to measure torque.

I'm going to replace crappy key with BCM key, loctite it, etc.

Posted: 5/10/2013 6:44:45 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
So BCG's with the PSA markings on them are not affected correct?

Correct.
Please see the SKU number above for the BCG that is affected SKU 8784.
I tried to make it easy and post the affected part number above so as to not confuse people.

Posted: 5/10/2013 6:47:29 PM EDT

[#12]

Well, I'm cancelling my order due to recent issues. I'll hold out for a BCM/LMT/DD

Posted: 5/10/2013 6:48:28 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Any idea how a normal person without special tools can torque this to the right spec? Of course I have allen wrenches, just nothing to measure torque.

I'm going to replace crappy key with BCM key, loctite it, etc.

Can loctite hold up to the kind of heat generated around the carrier?

Posted: 5/10/2013 6:49:24 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
I would alter the OP a bit.

These are not "PSA BCG's." These are BCG's purchased from PSA, but not their branded BCG's.

Oh, and

before PSA forwards your name to the "appropriate channels."

Posted: 5/10/2013 6:55:36 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would alter the OP a bit.

These are not "PSA BCG's." These are BCG's purchased from PSA, but not their branded BCG's.

Oh, and

before PSA forwards your name to the "appropriate channels."

I am surprised it has made it this long, actually.

In before Alexville!

Posted: 5/10/2013 7:01:10 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would alter the OP a bit.

These are not "PSA BCG's." These are BCG's purchased from PSA, but not their branded BCG's.

Oh, and

before PSA forwards your name to the "appropriate channels."

I am surprised it has made it this long, actually.

In before Alexville!

Posted: 5/10/2013 7:03:04 PM EDT

[#17]

This is stupid. Some people like double dongs. That's cool.

Posted: 5/10/2013 7:03:29 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
ACCORDING to the REP, it was just a few bolts/BCG's. His words not mine

I think your confused with the bolts being marked with a M and not being marked.
That was another fiasco that happened with these BCG's but it seems PSA straightened that out.

Nope same concerns bud, The stake jobs coupled with the mismarked/un marked bolts. Same issues across the board, there is another thread currently in the feedback section as well.

Posted: 5/10/2013 7:08:21 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Can loctite hold up to the kind of heat generated around the carrier?

I'm guessing red loctite should be used, it is some strong stuff. I used to use it on paintball air fittings and had to heat the crap out of it and put an insane amount of muscle into breaking the seal.

Posted: 5/10/2013 7:12:48 PM EDT

[#20]

OP,
Have you voiced your concerns to PSA in a diplomatic manner? It helps to be nice about it and patient. I treat them with respect, voice any legitimate concerns, and they handle it. It doesn't have to be more complex or difficult than that.

evl....

Posted: 5/10/2013 7:17:08 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
So BCG's with the PSA markings on them are not affected correct?

Correct. The BCG's that they market as "M16" are purchased from a third party. PSA's own marked BCG's are still GTG.

Posted: 5/10/2013 7:24:44 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Any idea how a normal person without special tools can torque this to the right spec? Of course I have allen wrenches, just nothing to measure torque.

I'm going to replace crappy key with BCM key, loctite it, etc.

Do NOT Loctite those fastener screws.

Posted: 5/10/2013 7:28:42 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Can loctite hold up to the kind of heat generated around the carrier?

I'm guessing red loctite should be used, it is some strong stuff. I used to use it on paintball air fittings and had to heat the crap out of it and put an insane amount of muscle into breaking the seal.

Incorrect. The red Loctite will melt after around 100 rounds.

Why wouldn't you just stake the fastener heads?

Posted: 5/10/2013 7:34:08 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Incorrect. The red Loctite will melt after around 100 rounds.

Why wouldn't you just stake the fastener heads?

I would stake it, I've just never had to attach a the key before and heard recently loctite should be used. I appreciate the feedback, I will leave the red loctite out of the equation. Just in case, is there a more appropriate grade of loctite to use? I've only had experience with red & blue, not sure what is suggested for this application.

However, who can afford to shoot more than 100 rounds these days anyway?

Posted: 5/10/2013 7:35:41 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Can loctite hold up to the kind of heat generated around the carrier?

I'm guessing red loctite should be used, it is some strong stuff. I used to use it on paintball air fittings and had to heat the crap out of it and put an insane amount of muscle into breaking the seal.

Incorrect. The red Loctite will melt after around 100 rounds.

Why wouldn't you just stake the fastener heads?

I think it's in regard to Spike's Tactical in one of the threads mentioning that after disassembling one of the PSA carriers, he didn't notice any visible Loctite anywhere. Gave people the impression it should be there.

Posted: 5/10/2013 8:12:27 PM EDT

[#26]

Not PSA BCGs just sold by them.
Not a bright decision IMO since the way they were listed makes everyone think that it is there brand.

Posted: 5/10/2013 8:27:15 PM EDT

[#27]

Here is mine from that sku 8784

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb315/coppertop_pics/100_0102.jpg

Bad staking and questionable key. Two days after my first email to PSA, which asked if i could either send the carrier in for replacement of the key or send the entire BCG back for a refund, I get no reply from them. I do get a notice from UPS that a label has been generated for a return to PSA. So i send a second email asking if I just need to return the carrier or the entire BCG. Going on the third day and no reply. I have IM'd the rep that posts in their industry forum yesterday, no reply. For a BCG damn near the price of BravoCompany this is kinda sad.... I've had another forum member offer to replace the key and only pay postage which was genuinely very nice but I'd like to see PSA fix their own issues.

Posted: 5/10/2013 8:58:25 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Bad staking

People are about 1000% too wrapped around the axle on extreme staking. We're only a short step away from demanding that the screws be spot welded.

IIRC Taiwan had the TDP for the M16, as they manufactured it there along with some derivatives. Is the claim that the items are somehow substandard, or just that they are made in Taiwan?

Posted: 5/10/2013 9:51:38 PM EDT

[#29]

I have one of these, PSA has stated if I have issues I can contact them and since I'd used the bolt before it became a issue here online. I'm not worried about the staking, it's about the same as my Colt 6920 bolt so I can use it.

I intended to get a BCM BCG for the build this is in anyway so when that happens if it's a concern I've ordered a BCM gas key and bolts, I'll replace that when I have the BCM bolt and either use this as a spare or in another build

Posted: 5/11/2013 1:53:25 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Can loctite hold up to the kind of heat generated around the carrier?

I'm guessing red loctite should be used, it is some strong stuff. I used to use it on paintball air fittings and had to heat the crap out of it and put an insane amount of muscle into breaking the seal.

Incorrect. The red Loctite will melt after around 100 rounds.

Why wouldn't you just stake the fastener heads?

I think it's in regard to Spike's Tactical in one of the threads mentioning that after disassembling one of the PSA carriers, he didn't notice any visible Loctite anywhere. Gave people the impression it should be there.

Correct this is what the Spikes Tactical guy said about the BCG's

To be completely honest with you guys, the questionable carrier key concerns me way less than the assembly procedure used to attach the carrier key to the carrier. The good news is that the carrier itself actually looked pretty decent. It's good to go now with the new key in place and it's on the way back to the OP.

Here's what I found,

- Neither screw was torqued to spec. The front screw was 37 inch pounds while the rear screw was 79 inch pounds.

- No Loctite visible any where.

- No Permatex Aviation sealant visible any where.

- Carrier key was not perfectly flat on the bottom surface which mates to the carrier.

- Carrier key screw holes are oversize.

- Staking wasn't very effective.

- Carrier key is junk quality.

So if a person who is well educated on BCG's says this what am I to do but listen and be concerned that I have substandard BCG.
These bcg's were advertised as mil spec. However now I doubt the military would ever even consider these for use and of course I'm putting price aside
And speaking strictly on quality.

Posted: 5/11/2013 2:05:32 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Bad staking

People are about 1000% too wrapped around the axle on extreme staking. We're only a short step away from demanding that the screws be spot welded.

IIRC Taiwan had the TDP for the M16, as they manufactured it there along with some derivatives. Is the claim that the items are somehow substandard, or just that they are made in Taiwan?

So TDP what does this mean?
I am speaking about these bcg's not being mil spec.
Would the military use these BCG's in question price put aside ?
I think not.
Still trying to figure out the TDP riddle you spoke of.

TDPThermal Design Power (CPU design)
TDPTelugu Desam Party
TDPTag Distribution Protocol (Cisco)
TDPTechnical Data Package
TdPTorsades de Pointes (French: Twisting of the Points)
TDPThymidine 5'-Diphosphate
TDPTesting Designated Position
TDPThermal Depolymerization Process
TDPTeam Description Paper
TDPTransit Development Program
TDPTivoli Data Protection
TDPThief: the Dark Project (video game)
TDPTransmitter Documentation Project
TDPTotal Dissipated Power
TDPTelocator Data Protocol
TDPThermal Death Point (microbes)
TDPTennessee Democratic Party
TDPTrigger Detection Point (Telcordia)
TDPTactical Data Processor
TDPTouch Down Point
TDPThe Dreamscapes Project (band)
TDPTake-off Decision Point
TDPTechnical Development Plan
TDPTransmitter and Dispersion Penalty
TDPTexas Dwelling Policy (insurance; now RDP, Rental Dwelling Policy)
TDPTest Design Plan
TDPTherapist Driven Protocol
TDPThe Dark Path (online gaming guild)
TDPTechnology Demonstrator Program
TDPTechnology Development Process
TDPThe Dead Pool (movie)
TDPTabular Data Provider
TDPTraining Development Plan
TDPTarget Data Processor
TDPTelemetry Data Processor
TDPTime, Date and Place
TDPTrainee Discharge Program
TDPTarget Deployment Ports (IBM® Rational® Test RealTime®)
TDPTurbine Exhaust Pressure
TDPTarget Director Post
TDPTechnical Design Plan
TDPTactical Development Plan
TDPTechnical Detail Procedure
TDPTraining Discharge Program (US Army)
TDPTotal Drill Population
TDPThreat Display & Projection
TDPThe Dead Pizza (blog)
TDPTarget Data Program
TDPThedogpark.net (online dog community)
TDPThe Daily Punt (betting forum)
TDPTested Drug Positions
TDPTucson Dog Protection (Tucson, AZ)
TDPTransfert de Droits À Prime (French: Transfer of Premium Rights; farm sales)
TDPThe Doll Palace, Inc.
TDPTrade for Development (South Centre; think tank)
TDPThe Dismemberment Plan (band)
TDPTeam Dodge Podge (Geocache team)

Posted: 5/11/2013 2:16:37 AM EDT

[#32]

Technical Data Package.

Posted: 5/11/2013 2:37:44 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would alter the OP a bit.

These are not "PSA BCG's." These are BCG's purchased from PSA, but not their branded BCG's.

Oh, and

before PSA forwards your name to the "appropriate channels."

I am surprised it has made it this long, actually.

In before Alexville!

LOL, I was laughing my ass off also.

Posted: 5/11/2013 4:23:44 AM EDT

[#34]

im sure PSA will accept a return. whats not clear is if PSA will refund you and possibly selll the BCG to another customer or correct the issues that they have yet to acknowledge exist and return it to you. another possible outcome is an exchange for more of the same. lol!

Posted: 5/11/2013 4:24:19 AM EDT

[#35]

I was laughing too. I was mentioned 3 times and I didn't have to lift a finger.

Posted: 5/11/2013 4:25:19 AM EDT

[#36]

Has anyone actually ran one of these bcgs hard to see how it holds up? I don't own one but it just makes me wonder if people are making all their decisions on what the Internet says or if they are actually going out and shooting.

Posted: 5/11/2013 4:30:42 AM EDT

[#37]

I only ran 640 rounds through it(Vtac Drills) but I have only had it for a couple of weeks. I have been inspecting it every time I shoot. Seems ok. I won't know anything until about 3k. So far so good.

Posted: 5/11/2013 5:14:29 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
I was laughing too. I was mentioned 3 times and I didn't have to lift a finger.

Innocent joke, brother.

The fact that you appear in PSA threads is your own doing. You know this, and I know you are solid enough not to take offense to a little joke.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, and am not bashing you or PSA. Threads like this don't survive

Posted: 5/11/2013 5:54:02 AM EDT

[#39]

I got thick skin and broad shoulders. I like the company. It is no grand mystery. They foul up sometimes but I believe it is in good faith. Competition is awesome for the industry.

Posted: 5/11/2013 6:09:43 AM EDT

[#40]

Thank you for your comments.

1. The keys are investment cast 4140 steel. The key falls within the alloy parameters specified in the print.

2. Torque values are measured when you tighten. The value to loosen has no relation, as many factors can come into play, including overcoming the resistance of the staking.

3. The purpose of the staking is to secure the screw mechanically, as products such as Loctite loosen when subjected to heat.

4. If a customer feels that there is a problem with their BCG, we will happily repair or replace it.

The AR15 community is a pretty congenial bunch as a whole. However, some competitors have a long history of trolling the forums and making false and misleading statements. Please keep that in mind when fielding offers of "help".

Posted: 5/11/2013 6:30:20 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
I was laughing too. I was mentioned 3 times and I didn't have to lift a finger.

but you commented on page 1

Posted: 5/11/2013 6:35:51 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Any idea how a normal person without special tools can torque this to the right spec? Of course I have allen wrenches, just nothing to measure torque.

I'm going to replace crappy key with BCM key, loctite it, etc.

Can loctite hold up to the kind of heat generated around the carrier?

Loctite 271 fails at around 275 degrees F. You need Loctite 2620 which is good to 650 degrees

Posted: 5/11/2013 7:06:13 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
I only ran 640 rounds through it(Vtac Drills) but I have only had it for a couple of weeks. I have been inspecting it every time I shoot. Seems ok. I won't know anything until about 3k. So far so good.

VTAC Drills

Looks like we have another space-shuttle door-gunner here

Posted: 5/11/2013 7:06:55 AM EDT

[#44]

Mine looks fine.

Posted: 5/11/2013 8:56:07 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I only ran 640 rounds through it(Vtac Drills) but I have only had it for a couple of weeks. I have been inspecting it every time I shoot. Seems ok. I won't know anything until about 3k. So far so good.

VTAC Drills

Looks like we have another space-shuttle door-gunner here

. Thanks for playing. You win the argument when the other side attacks ones character. It is the only weapon they have left.

Posted: 5/11/2013 8:57:52 AM EDT

[#46]

mine I got from them looks gtg

Posted: 5/11/2013 9:35:36 AM EDT

[#47]

I see that Spikes took the chance to discredit PSA again. How long has this beef been going on?

Posted: 5/11/2013 9:50:09 AM EDT

[#48]

Here we go again with another bash thread... <Sigh>

I placed my order on 04/30, and received my BCG on 05/09

The staking looks great, all the machining look great, and for the times the price was very fair. So once again I'm a very happy customer

I swear some of you people will bitch about anything.