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Posted: 2/3/2013 9:32:11 PM EDT
This may have been discussed before, but with your kind indulgence, hoping to get some insight from forum members with far more knowledge than I do .

I realize that Remington owns (or used to) both brands, but given the choice between Bushmaster and DPMS, which do you believe to be the better way to go?

I have an opportunity to buy either one in an m4 configuration.

Your help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Link Posted: 2/3/2013 9:34:36 PM EDT
This thread should be interesting, and you'll probably find that about 50% favor, one, 50% favor the other, and 50% hate them both
Link Posted: 2/3/2013 9:40:12 PM EDT
DPMS are for people who can't spell Bushmaster ;-)

Link Posted: 2/3/2013 9:57:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2013 10:08:01 PM EDT by Flieger]
SoloMan,
I took your advice and added a poll. I would still like to get some serious information between to two.
Link Posted: 2/3/2013 10:47:59 PM EDT
Get either. For the amount of shooting you'll likely do it won't matter. They are so close as to specs and parts used they might as well sell interchangeably.

The barrels could be different steel. Depending on the model of dpms it might be inferior steel (compaired to the shrubmaster)

Go to the store and finger fuck both rifles. Pick one that feels the best.

There are very real metrics of quality for ARs. Most people won't see the benefit of a higher end rifle, there "need" is up for debate. Some people still want that quality regardless. And in that respect, both bushmaster and dpms fall short. I would choose neither. As I chose to exercise my rights before the fear of infringement took me, I was able to choose. If fear is driving your want for a rifle then buy what ever the fuck you feel like. It didn't matter to you before the panic and it won't after.
Link Posted: 2/3/2013 10:51:43 PM EDT
Neither. They are both pretty much bottom of the barrel.

That said, at least Bushmaster made chrome-lining a standard feature, unlike DPMS.
Link Posted: 2/3/2013 11:39:39 PM EDT
DPMS Panther cause they're made with bits of real panther, so you know they're good.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 1:37:37 AM EDT
The current Bushmaster, and DPMS are owned by the same parent company these days..
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 2:04:30 AM EDT
My vote is for the bushmaster.
However, if you are asking a question like this you need to spend a few hours probing the info on this site and see if you can make a better decision for yourself based on other threads and write ups.
My guess is after a little education you will decide that a few hundred more dollars will go a long way into a top tier manufacturer and be money well spent.
Guns are cheap. Dirt cheap
Compared to the cost of ammo (even reloading now ) most Top end guns are going to eat 20k+ rounds before needing anything.
Ammo prices being $300-$400 per k you will have paid for a small house by the time your ready to replace your barrel.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 2:06:05 AM EDT
I own both and they are both the same. The DPMS has a better trigger.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 2:21:48 AM EDT
specs? price?
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 2:44:27 AM EDT
Not sure if you are talking new current production guns or older used guns from the period when both companies were independent.

I was never too crazy about DPMS because most of them that I saw around were built down to be the cheapest AR in the gunstore.
Non Chrome lined barrels,cheap stocks ,generally cheap no feature guns.

I never have seen a DPMS at my club range that had quality issues but they were just low end no feature guns.

I have owned several Maine built Bushmaster guns that were just fine (I realise many of the snobs here don't consider them tier 1) and
was always satisfied with fit,finish and general quality.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 2:52:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SoloMan:
This thread should be interesting, and you'll probably find that about 50% favor, one, 50% favor the other, and 50% hate them both


That's 150%!!!

Link Posted: 2/4/2013 3:09:43 AM EDT
You will receive "opinion" out the gazoo. Change out "some" of the parts in the lower of a DPMS and put good sights on it and good ammo in it and it is GTG. I know... I have DD, Spikes, LaRue, Colt and have owned and sold several other "top quality" brands. My two DPMS rifles shoot right there with the best of the best. I did order mine with chrome lined barrels and bores (AP4 and LR-308). Fit and finish on the two that I own are as good as any rifles that I own. They are tight and the lines match like a Mercedes. I have mounted Spikes uppers on the DPMS lowers and they look like they fit just as well as they do on their own mates. I do not own "safe queens". I shoot all of my rifles and have my own private range about 500 yards from where I am typing this. This is just one man's opinion but it is grounded in real world experience.

Flash
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 4:15:04 AM EDT
Bushmaster.

They're essentially the same thing since Freedom Group, as others have pointed out, but the Bushmaster will have higher resale when you decide to arbitrarily "upgrade" a functional rifle when you get sick of getting made fun of on the internet.

~Augee
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 4:18:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Augee:
Bushmaster.

They're essentially the same thing since Freedom Group, as others have pointed out, but the Bushmaster will have higher resale when you decide to arbitrarily "upgrade" a functional rifle when you get sick of getting made fun of on the internet.

~Augee


That's some good stuff right there!

Flash
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 5:20:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bizzarolibe:


That said, at least Bushmaster made chrome-lining a standard feature, unlike DPMS.


Link Posted: 2/4/2013 5:26:16 AM EDT
Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 6:46:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Augee:
Bushmaster.

They're essentially the same thing since Freedom Group, as others have pointed out, but the Bushmaster will have higher resale when you decide to arbitrarily "upgrade" a functional rifle when you get sick of getting made fun of on the internet.

~Augee


Hey man, we're just looking out for OP
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 6:58:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bizzarolibe:
Originally Posted By Augee:
Bushmaster.

They're essentially the same thing since Freedom Group, as others have pointed out, but the Bushmaster will have higher resale when you decide to arbitrarily "upgrade" a functional rifle when you get sick of getting made fun of on the internet.

~Augee


Hey man, we're just looking out for OP

Hehehe. As usual, Augee has it right.

I've seen good examples of both company's products. My Bushmaster has been pretty good. My buddy's DPMS has been rock-solid. One example of each though is hardly a good sample size. I don't see many of either at classes when I do them (although I've only been doing about one "nationally known" class a year now) so I can't give much first hand experience of seeing failed guns from either.

Historically, both brands were frowned upon by high round count shooters in the firearms training industry. But, who knows.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 7:02:25 AM EDT
I have a BM upper on a NFA Aluminum Lower, ALG Combat Trigger and Magpul furniture...no complaints. It has a chrome lined barrel, M4 ramps and shoots very well.

Sure, I would like to have a DD or LaRue but for the price I paid...I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any bullets coming out the front of it.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 7:12:39 AM EDT
Well I only have owned DPMS. SO kinda bias.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 7:13:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Willz:
DPMS Panther cause they're made with bits of real panther, so you know they're good.


Couldn't help but laugh. Anchorman reference? "it's illeagal in nine countries" lol.
Anyways OP, I would reccommend DPMS as well.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 7:29:02 AM EDT
I have both, the DPMS actually seems to have a better finish, but that's about it. My Bushy is a Windham so I'd take it before my DPMS. Both run fine though. I use DPMS for parts mostly because they are easier to find pre-neutered and I've had surprising results with their barrels.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 7:30:06 AM EDT
Junk vs. junkier.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 7:52:20 AM EDT
I realize that the two do not honor respect from pompous asses that consider Rock River the bare minimum of acceptability to even be a member of this forum.

If it helps to garner even the slightest amount of respectability, I do own a Sig Sauer
M400.

My income level allows me to afford whatever I want or need, I am blessed for this, but there are some that can not afford to put out for a RRA Pro-Series Elite? Does that mean that forum members should excoriate them?

Bottom line, the gun stores around here are not jam packed with H&K’s, Sig’s, or Rock Rivers, the shelves are empty. I simply wanedt to pick up an extra AR, and these were the two that I could come up with and I wanted some advice from forum members as to which I should buy.

Link Posted: 2/4/2013 7:59:07 AM EDT
If I absolutely had to pick between those two I would pick BM.

...It's famous
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 8:09:55 AM EDT
Yeah I have not owned either because I like nicer better functioning rifles. My brother owned both recently and they were both pretty bad. They were both lightly used so I do not know the exact history of them but neither worked like an ar15 should. With the DPMS the gas block would move around after a number of rounds then stop working till it was aligned right and tightened up. With the Bushmaster the lower was out of spec so the bolt release would not work right. With the Bushmaster apparently its a pretty common problem so you just order a bunch of bolt releases from different places and find one that works a bit. I am sure with both the DPMS and Bushmaster one could get them to function ok for a while. I just do not enjoy monkey f*^%ing around with crap like that. He finally hit the sale at PSA and got an upper for $250 and a PSA "blemished" lower for $69 along with the other parts needed and put together a decent rifle. He is much more happy with the PSA than he was with either Bushmaster or DPMS.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 9:54:47 AM EDT
I have both. The shrubmaster is fine, but I like my DPMS better. My DPMS A15 was made and purchased circa 2002 and it is rock solid and eats everything I put into it. Never a FTFire, FTFeed, or FTE. Has a better fit and finish than any brand new issue Colt/FN M16/M4 I was ever handed. Mine came standard with the matte chrome BCG and the chrome lined bore/barel. I have put 8 out of 9 shots into a 2x2 inch diamond at 50 meters with cheap ammo with irons only. I probably screwed up the one I missed.

At that price point there is little difference. Stay away from the Oracle (DPMS) or the ORC (Bush) as they seem extra cheap.

The best advice I have seen was from the guy that said to go finger fuck both at a gun shop and buy the one you like. Otherwise, you will probably get responses to the tune of "I don't like them" or "shrubmaster is ghey."
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 10:11:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2013 10:14:45 AM EDT by Bizzarolibe]
Originally Posted By Flieger:
I realize that the two do not honor respect from pompous asses that consider Rock River the bare minimum of acceptability to even be a member of this forum.

If it helps to garner even the slightest amount of respectability, I do own a Sig Sauer
M400.

My income level allows me to afford whatever I want or need, I am blessed for this, but there are some that can not afford to put out for a RRA Pro-Series Elite? Does that mean that forum members should excoriate them?

Bottom line, the gun stores around here are not jam packed with H&K’s, Sig’s, or Rock Rivers, the shelves are empty. I simply wanedt to pick up an extra AR, and these were the two that I could come up with and I wanted some advice from forum members as to which I should buy.



Are you kidding me? Rock River is less respected than either of the two companies you asked about, and for good reason. Their stuff is heavy, poorly designed, and doesn't meet spec. I'd take a Bushy over an RRA any day, all day.

That said, I don't crap on people for owning crappy AR's; their life, their money. But if you ask people about said crappy AR's on a public forum, you are soliciting their opinions, and most of them won't hesitate to tell you that a crappy AR is a crappy AR.

And for the record, I owned a DPMS once (Panther Lite). It was my first AR. It wouldn't drop PMAGS, was way overgassed, you needed a punch and a hammer to separate the upper from the lower (that's not a good thing), and had feeding issues.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 10:11:51 AM EDT
Bushwacker.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 10:39:41 AM EDT
I have both and like both. My "extra cheap" Bushy ORC is awesome. But I am just a low life apparently for not having a DD or BCM....
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 11:07:08 AM EDT
I'm a Bushmaster guy. But I'd also like to throw in for your consideration, Wyndham Weaponry.

Wyndham is most of the former Bushmaster gang.. My loose understanding is that Bushmaster moved production out of Wyndham Maine. So after their no-compete expired, a bunch of former Bushmaster Exec's started production back up in Wyndham, with a bunch of the old Bushmaster Wyndham townfolk back making AR's. I believe that they are even using some of the old Bushmaster tooling and/or machinery.

Some friends at the range have them, and love them. So my next AR will be a Wyndham. With the OLD Bushmaster quality.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 11:21:27 AM EDT
bushier
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 11:39:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bizzarolibe:
Originally Posted By Flieger:
I realize that the two do not honor respect from pompous asses that consider Rock River the bare minimum of acceptability to even be a member of this forum.

If it helps to garner even the slightest amount of respectability, I do own a Sig Sauer
M400.

My income level allows me to afford whatever I want or need, I am blessed for this, but there are some that can not afford to put out for a RRA Pro-Series Elite? Does that mean that forum members should excoriate them?

Bottom line, the gun stores around here are not jam packed with H&K’s, Sig’s, or Rock Rivers, the shelves are empty. I simply wanedt to pick up an extra AR, and these were the two that I could come up with and I wanted some advice from forum members as to which I should buy.



Are you kidding me? Rock River is less respected than either of the two companies you asked about, and for good reason. Their stuff is heavy, poorly designed, and doesn't meet spec. I'd take a Bushy over an RRA any day, all day.

That said, I don't crap on people for owning crappy AR's; their life, their money. But if you ask people about said crappy AR's on a public forum, you are soliciting their opinions, and most of them won't hesitate to tell you that a crappy AR is a crappy AR.

And for the record, I owned a DPMS once (Panther Lite). It was my first AR. It wouldn't drop PMAGS, was way overgassed, you needed a punch and a hammer to separate the upper from the lower (that's not a good thing), and had feeding issues.
This, for the most part..I just don't know if I'd agree that RRA is less-well thought of than DPMS/BM..

I'm not rich by any means, but as for me..I stick with gear I know to be among the best. Not being a snob, I just don't spend money on "half-ass". So OP, my answer would be that I wouldn't personally buy either one, especially if it isn't your first black rifle.

Link Posted: 2/4/2013 12:08:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2013 12:13:58 PM EDT by Augee]
Originally Posted By Ogive:
I'm a Bushmaster guy. But I'd also like to throw in for your consideration, Wyndham Weaponry.

Wyndham is most of the former Bushmaster gang.. My loose understanding is that Bushmaster moved production out of Wyndham Maine. So after their no-compete expired, a bunch of former Bushmaster Exec's started production back up in Wyndham, with a bunch of the old Bushmaster Wyndham townfolk back making AR's. I believe that they are even using some of the old Bushmaster tooling and/or machinery.

Some friends at the range have them, and love them. So my next AR will be a Wyndham. With the OLD Bushmaster quality.


Alright, seriously. What is this "Wyndham Weaponry" stuff? Is it some new hipster intentional misspelling intended to point out some post-modern irony about Bushmaster not being Bushmaster and the proletariat New Englander bolt-catch installer sticking it to the bourgeois Multi-national conglomerate because things aren't always as they appear? I've seen several posts where people refer to "Wyndham Weaponry," and I'm...just...not...getting...it...

Brought to you by the former owner and employees of Bushmaster Firearms Incorporated of Windham, Maine, rescued from obscurity by Non-Compete Clause Expiration - Windham Weaponry

~Augee
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 1:49:35 PM EDT
I'd choose Bushmaster over DPMS.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 1:53:21 PM EDT
I hate cats
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 2:07:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Alaska511:
I hate cats


I take offense to that. ^^^

~Augee
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 2:35:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By Alaska511:
I hate cats


I take offense to that. ^^^

~Augee


Link Posted: 2/4/2013 7:31:53 PM EDT
Thanks All!
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 8:03:00 PM EDT
Bushmaster. Mine was built in 04 in Maine and I purchased it the first day after the expired AWB. Never once had a problem 5000+ rounds later.
Link Posted: 2/4/2013 10:56:27 PM EDT
I can't vote because I've never used a bushmaster.. but I've never had any problems out of my dpms except for crappy rounds.
Link Posted: 2/5/2013 5:31:22 AM EDT
My choice would be Bushmaster, or Windham (the new Bushmaster) over DPMS.

I have circa 1995-1996 Bushmasters, that had a long sleep because I didn't get enough Lower Receivers before the CA AWB.

Unbelievably accurate barrels.
Link Posted: 2/5/2013 9:13:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tested:
I own both and they are both the same. The DPMS has a better trigger.


Would you believe a few guys that have dry fired my back up carbine , turn around and say what a good trigger it has!


Its just a standard Bushmaster lower I built around 11yrs ago using bushmaster springs kit that bushy says tighten the action of there standard trigger.

Its strange they dont say anything about my LMT Defender 2000 that came with sopmod stock and there 2stage trigger.

OP

Well Ive seen a few standard DPMS carbines that are highly accurate.
Also there lowers can be really nice. finish wise.

Ive also had excellent luck with my 2 bushmasters that I bought and built during the last ban.
Accrucay was excellent with the 20inch hbar clover groups prone at 100Y using 3.5-10x federal 69bthp
With my Bushmaster carbine I could get just under 2 inches using 55gr ball at 50Y kneeling

If I used a Bench and a rifle rest with sand bag . I bet I could do better than under 2 inches at 50Y using bushy carbine 14.7 hbar and 55gr ball

But who wants to shoot AR`S at the bench ? unless to zero
Link Posted: 2/5/2013 9:22:05 AM EDT
Given I have had real 1st hand experience with both,...
They were both tortured by me with at least 1200rds with no cleaning & just lube, of all types of ammo brass & steel case, Neither one shot any different or was better then the other in function or performance. Both did have some issues with wolf ammo after a few hundred rounds, but ran brass, silverbear & brownbear fine.
In term of looks, both held up fine. The DPMS lower was a bit better looking though & that was because they Teflon their lowers. The BM had more of a matte military finish that scratched easier.
BM may have a bit better quality control then DPMS.
DPMS has better looking parts
Neither had a proper spec buffer, or BCG. Neither were CL barrels or MP tested, Both were 1:9.
Which one? Depends on the price point. Neither is top notch so I wouldn't pay a top notch price. Also depends on what's available in higher end for X amount more money. It's worth it to have a properly spec'd rifle rather then not. But if that price is a $400 difference? Well the cheap end will win. The lowers themselves are GTG form either. You can always put another upper on & change out the BCG & the buffer etc to MAKE it into a great rifle.
Link Posted: 2/5/2013 9:29:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

Originally Posted By Bizzarolibe:
Originally Posted By Augee:
Bushmaster.

They're essentially the same thing since Freedom Group, as others have pointed out, but the Bushmaster will have higher resale when you decide to arbitrarily "upgrade" a functional rifle when you get sick of getting made fun of on the internet.

~Augee


Hey man, we're just looking out for OP

Hehehe. As usual, Augee has it right.

I

Historically, both brands were frowned upon by high round count shooters in the firearms training industry. But, who knows.


I agree that the Bushmaster has been frowned upon by I few in the know.

But I say take that Bushmaster upper with a 4150 chrome lined barrel

Slap a Colt or LMT carrier and bolt into the bushy upper and slap it on a Colt/LMT lower.

I would say that tha bushy upper would have the same chance to last just as long as the colt or lmt carbines.

Link Posted: 2/5/2013 9:30:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CaneRat:
Junk vs. junkier.




I dont think bushy or even DPMS = Hesse/vulcan yet.
Link Posted: 2/5/2013 9:35:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ian1234:
Yeah I have not owned either because I like nicer better functioning rifles. My brother owned both recently and they were both pretty bad. They were both lightly used so I do not know the exact history of them but neither worked like an ar15 should. With the DPMS the gas block would move around after a number of rounds then stop working till it was aligned right and tightened up. With the Bushmaster the lower was out of spec so the bolt release would not work right. With the Bushmaster apparently its a pretty common problem so you just order a bunch of bolt releases from different places and find one that works a bit. I am sure with both the DPMS and Bushmaster one could get them to function ok for a while. I just do not enjoy monkey f*^%ing around with crap like that. He finally hit the sale at PSA and got an upper for $250 and a PSA "blemished" lower for $69 along with the other parts needed and put together a decent rifle. He is much more happy with the PSA than he was with either Bushmaster or DPMS.


If they are both used then I wouldnt even try to base anything off that. Who knows what ??

BTW I havent ran into your bushmaster lower problem yet.
Link Posted: 2/5/2013 9:46:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By Ogive:
I'm a Bushmaster guy. But I'd also like to throw in for your consideration, Wyndham Weaponry.

Wyndham is most of the former Bushmaster gang.. My loose understanding is that Bushmaster moved production out of Wyndham Maine. So after their no-compete expired, a bunch of former Bushmaster Exec's started production back up in Wyndham, with a bunch of the old Bushmaster Wyndham townfolk back making AR's. I believe that they are even using some of the old Bushmaster tooling and/or machinery.

Some friends at the range have them, and love them. So my next AR will be a Wyndham. With the OLD Bushmaster quality.


I've seen several posts where people refer to "Wyndham Weaponry," and I'm...just...not...getting...it...



~Augee


Well Augee dont feel bad.

I have a hard time getting Spike and PSA or if specs match then its equal ?



Link Posted: 2/5/2013 10:34:28 AM EDT
Thanks Again to all forum members for your help!
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