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Unicorn
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Posted: 2/8/2013 5:57:04 PM
"Manufacturers" don't like to disclose who makes their products for them. It saves them having the customer go straight to the maker hoping to get it for less. Some makers will sell small parts to individuals, some will only sell in quantity and get annoyed when people call them looking for just a couple bolts.

8620 is the wrong steel for a bolt. Correct for the carrier, but not at all for the bolt. There can be good arguments for 9310 ( the steel JP Superbolts are made from), but not for 8620 other than it's cheap.
apierce918
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Posted: 2/8/2013 6:01:28 PM
dpms, or whoever makes theirs is my guess.

his mil-spec stats say 8620 bolt?
X-CaptHook
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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:50:57 AM
Jarmstrong, any new updates? Any word on what caused this? Did you receive a new BCG? How is it running?
strat81
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Posted: 2/10/2013 12:25:20 PM
Originally Posted By sasquatchdan:
I bought a BCG from meputtin as well on ebay and it had no markings and no chrome lining on anything. So I called him up and asked him the manufacturer. Gave me an answer something like if he tells me where his fishing hole is everyone will want to fish there. The guy seemed nice enough though.
Later I sent him an email asking him specifics on the BCG steel and this is what I got.


They are American Made by a military contractor in the mid-west ,and have a lifetime no bs warranty
Mil-spec mpi tested 8620 bolt
d2 tool steel extractor
8620 cam pin
4130 carrier
416 stainless firing pin
grade 8 gas key bolts


Any guess on the manufacturer?

Sounds like this misrepresented bolt.

8620 bolt and 4130 carrier is not mil-spec.
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Ar-15TechGuy
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Posted: 2/10/2013 1:29:21 PM
Originally Posted By apierce918:
dpms, or whoever makes theirs is my guess.

his mil-spec stats say 8620 bolt?


DPMS uses Carpenter steel for the bolts...
jarmstrong1029
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:57:03 PM
After speaking with the seller, He sent me a brand new BCG overnight. I packaged up the pieces and sent them out to him so that He could figure out what went wrong. I talked to him a good bit about any issues he's had or what may have gone wrong. He didn't want to disclose the name of the manufacturer because of this thread causing some backlash for a problem that may have been isolated. Since this is really the only time he or I have heard of a bolt failing after only 30 rds. I could understand that. They use these BCGs in their own guns and have sold them for a while now with no issue. When it comes to how he handled the situation, I can say that he was very accommodating, apologetic, and wanted to make things right. I believe there is a reason why he has 100% positive feedback and I wouldn't be hesitant from buying from him again.

I have since installed the new BCG, had my gunsmith check the head spacing, and overall shape of the bolt. He told me that it looked good to go. I put a few hundred rounds through it this weekend without a single issue. There are no marks on the bolt that would indicate any damage. I think I was unlucky more than anything.
Dirtymoe21
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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:07:31 PM
[Last Edit: 2/10/2013 10:08:38 PM by Dirtymoe21]
Could be bad material or not the proper material. Good on the seller for taking care of you.
Ar-15TechGuy
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Posted: 2/11/2013 11:10:42 AM
Originally Posted By jarmstrong1029:

Snip...

I believe there is a reason why he has 100% positive feedback and I wouldn't be hesitant from buying from him again.

I have since installed the new BCG, had my gunsmith check the head spacing, and overall shape of the bolt. He told me that it looked good to go. I put a few hundred rounds through it this weekend without a single issue. There are no marks on the bolt that would indicate any damage. I think I was unlucky more than anything.


The guy has 100% feedback because feedback has to be left within a certain number of days after the end of the auction or you cant leave it at all. You cant 'change' your feedback after the part FAILS 3 months down the road...

Your part failed because it was made from the wrong steel for the job. He replaced a bad part with an equally bad part.
jarmstrong1029
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Posted: 2/11/2013 12:38:48 PM

Originally Posted By Ar-15TechGuy:
Originally Posted By jarmstrong1029:

Snip...

I believe there is a reason why he has 100% positive feedback and I wouldn't be hesitant from buying from him again.

I have since installed the new BCG, had my gunsmith check the head spacing, and overall shape of the bolt. He told me that it looked good to go. I put a few hundred rounds through it this weekend without a single issue. There are no marks on the bolt that would indicate any damage. I think I was unlucky more than anything.


The guy has 100% feedback because feedback has to be left within a certain number of days after the end of the auction or you cant leave it at all. You cant 'change' your feedback after the part FAILS 3 months down the road...

Your part failed because it was made from the wrong steel for the job. He replaced a bad part with an equally bad part.

The part failed after 30 rounds... If this was an occurance that happened often, we would here about it. Can you name any other occurances where a bolt failed after 30 rounds?


Sub-MOA
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Posted: 2/11/2013 2:08:17 PM

Originally Posted By jarmstrong1029:

Originally Posted By Ar-15TechGuy:
Originally Posted By jarmstrong1029:

Snip...

I believe there is a reason why he has 100% positive feedback and I wouldn't be hesitant from buying from him again.

I have since installed the new BCG, had my gunsmith check the head spacing, and overall shape of the bolt. He told me that it looked good to go. I put a few hundred rounds through it this weekend without a single issue. There are no marks on the bolt that would indicate any damage. I think I was unlucky more than anything.


The guy has 100% feedback because feedback has to be left within a certain number of days after the end of the auction or you cant leave it at all. You cant 'change' your feedback after the part FAILS 3 months down the road...

Your part failed because it was made from the wrong steel for the job. He replaced a bad part with an equally bad part.

The part failed after 30 rounds... If this was an occurance that happened often, we would here about it. Can you name any other occurances where a bolt failed after 30 rounds?



http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_66/601696_my_bolt_exploded_what_did_I_do_______.html
You become responsible, forever, for what you've tamed.
Ar-15TechGuy
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Posted: 2/11/2013 8:33:40 PM
Originally Posted By jarmstrong1029:

Originally Posted By Ar-15TechGuy:
Originally Posted By jarmstrong1029:

Snip...

I believe there is a reason why he has 100% positive feedback and I wouldn't be hesitant from buying from him again.

I have since installed the new BCG, had my gunsmith check the head spacing, and overall shape of the bolt. He told me that it looked good to go. I put a few hundred rounds through it this weekend without a single issue. There are no marks on the bolt that would indicate any damage. I think I was unlucky more than anything.


The guy has 100% feedback because feedback has to be left within a certain number of days after the end of the auction or you cant leave it at all. You cant 'change' your feedback after the part FAILS 3 months down the road...

Your part failed because it was made from the wrong steel for the job. He replaced a bad part with an equally bad part.

The part failed after 30 rounds... If this was an occurance that happened often, we would here about it. Can you name any other occurances where a bolt failed after 30 rounds?




http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/603032_Joe_Bob_s_Cera_plated_M16_BCG______.html

"We do know the bolts affected were more than the batch of 600 we recently received, as other bolts received by other dealers and manufacturers have had issues arise as well. So it's really a crap-shoot unfortunately to know which ones were affected or not.

None of the heat treating defects would have been noticed in test firing since most seem to be breaking in the 20-60 round range with factory loads."


Like I said, YOU bought a crappy part (that failed) and then got a crappy part for a replacement.

If you happen to go to a public shooting range you should warn anyone near you that you have an unsafe rifle that may blow up and send crap flying in their direction...
50cal
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Posted: 2/11/2013 8:46:55 PM
Originally Posted By sasquatchdan:
I bought a BCG from meputtin as well on ebay and it had no markings and no chrome lining on anything. So I called him up and asked him the manufacturer. Gave me an answer something like if he tells me where his fishing hole is everyone will want to fish there. The guy seemed nice enough though.
Later I sent him an email asking him specifics on the BCG steel and this is what I got.


They are American Made by a military contractor in the mid-west ,and have a lifetime no bs warranty
Mil-spec mpi tested 8620 bolt
d2 tool steel extractor
8620 cam pin
4130 carrier
416 stainless firing pin
grade 8 gas key bolts


Any guess on the manufacturer?


Wrong material for the bolt there, sport. 158 Carpenter is the correct steel

I hated going to weddings. All the grandmas would poke me and say "You're next". They stopped that when I started doing it to them at funerals.
apierce918
Wait... what?
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Posted: 2/11/2013 9:12:59 PM
[Last Edit: 2/11/2013 9:14:45 PM by apierce918]

Originally Posted By Ar-15TechGuy:
Originally Posted By apierce918:
dpms, or whoever makes theirs is my guess.

his mil-spec stats say 8620 bolt?


DPMS uses Carpenter steel for the bolts...
do they?..

I just guessed because that is the only brand i have seen with a TiN bcg

Ar-15TechGuy
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Posted: 2/11/2013 9:29:55 PM
Originally Posted By apierce918:

Originally Posted By Ar-15TechGuy:
Originally Posted By apierce918:
dpms, or whoever makes theirs is my guess.

his mil-spec stats say 8620 bolt?


DPMS uses Carpenter steel for the bolts...
do they?..

I just guessed because that is the only brand i have seen with a TiN bcg



Yes they use Carpenter steel. You can always ask them yourself in the industry section here...

Also, If you had read the entire thread here you would have noticed that this is NOT a Tin BCG. OP said the camera angle made it appear to be that color but it is not.
crythzuel
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Posted: 2/13/2013 1:20:48 PM
hello. i just purchased one of these bolt carrier groups from "meputtin" on gunbroker. i admit, i bought it as part of the panic. i am one of the buyers who would actually like to use it. i made an account here so i could share what ive learned so far. maybe it can be of some value to people. its not much, but here it goes...
ive been watching for a bcg as part of a build that does not break the bank. i found this one for $200 and got it. 2 days ago i made the purchase. i sent an email to "meputtin" asking for a phone number so i could pay with a credit card. i got a reply from dave smith and made the call. i spoke with a woman. pretty much the first thing i asked was who manufactured it. she said she didnt think she could tell me for some kind of confidentiality purpose. this immediately made me uncomfortable. she did say i could speak with dave for more info, but he was threading a barrel and she couldnt interupt him while machining. i gave my number and she said he would call. i began doing some online research, and found that dave smith is the owner of sns shooting supplies in ms. seems like they do custom work and machine some things like silencers. thats when i found this thread in this forum. at that point i was super worried. for certain i bought complete junk. it was about an hour later when dave smith called me back. perhaps the most southern sounding guy ive ever spoken with. i asked who manufactured the bcg, and he would not say. he told me he just didnt want to reveal his source for a number of reasons. the reasons he stated are normal reasons of wholesale/retail consideration. although it may be rare in this industry, it is normal in other industries as this i know for sure because i am a wholesaler in a different industry. for about the next 45 min i spoke with dave about several things. he was very nice and very talkative. he knows a considerable amount of knowledge about custom work with other firearms. some important elements came out that i think you guys might be interested in. i pretty much told him that after doing research online about this particular bcg from him, that i was scared to use it. he told me i could cancel my order if i wished but he had total confidence in the product. he told me about the no bs lifetime warrenty and he was sincere. i dont see a problem with that. he also told me that when he does ar type builds that he always uses this bcg and has had no complaints. i asked him spesificly about the bcg in this thread with this particular problem. he told me all about pretty much everything thats been covered here already. he told me that he believes it was a heat treating issue, but was not 100% sure yet and was waiting on the manufacturer. he told me the bcgs for sale now are of a different batch. he also told me freely how he angered people online in forums because of his more or less straight forward opinions and interactions. he does seem like a pretty straight forward guy. after about 30 min talking to him, i assured him i was just a guy doing a build and in no way trying to infringe on his bcg source. i was still really sketchy though because i didnt want to risk bodily harm or damage to my firearm. i more or less begged him to give me more information on the bcg he was selling. at that point, perhaps the most important thing he said came forward. he wouldnt tell me who made it, but he told me this: he said it is made by a big manufacturer in the midwest. he also told me that this exact same bcg is sold at midway usa under there house brand of the ar stoner bcg. in all, i talked to him for about 45 min. i ended up letting him go because i felt like i was taking up too much of his time, but he would have continued to talk with me for longer had i wanted. he was a pretty nice guy. i cant comment on the quality of the product becasue i dont have it yet, but i think i can say that dave is not trying to sell junk. i believe that he believes that these are quality bcgs. he also, without me asking, told me the metals used in the bcg parts. they are as stated earlier in this thread, and in midways ar stoner bcg. i questioned the bolt material and he believes in his opinion, that its better. im not trying to troll, just stating what he was saying. he has strong favorable opinions of this bcg.
so im wondering.... does anyone know who the midwest manufacturer of the midway ar stoner bcg is? because that would be the manufacturer of this bcg according to dave himself.
i hope this may have helped someone here in some way. that was my only reason for posting.
be safe.
Richard-ar15
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Posted: 2/13/2013 1:54:38 PM
This whole thing about the seller downplaying it as an "isolated incident" and also a heat-treating issue has me scratching my head.

They run the hardening operation in batches, do they not? How many bolts in a batch? 100? 200? etc.

crythzuel
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Posted: 2/13/2013 1:59:52 PM
i do remember him telling me that this manufacturer makes around 8000 per month. i know nothing of the processes though.
Devils_Advocate
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Posted: 2/13/2013 2:02:13 PM
Originally Posted By Gator57:
Originally Posted By 35mm_Shooter:
Originally Posted By jarmstrong1029:
Supposedly…. it was a colt… I doubted that it was once I received it, though. The material looked good and the quality was there but I didnt see the markings to prove it was.


Don't colt bolts have a "C" stamp on them?

Colt "carriers" are stamped with a "C", but the bolt should be marked "MPC"....at least all four of mine are.


Colt has used a variety of markings over the years, including plain "C" marked. MPC is without question the most common, but there are others.
"[M]ercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent." Adam Smith, "Moral Sentiments".
1IV
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Posted: 2/13/2013 2:03:40 PM
Head spacing.

You got lucky. Where are the cases?
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jarmstrong1029
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Posted: 2/13/2013 2:14:44 PM

Originally Posted By crythzuel:
hello. i just purchased one of these bolt carrier groups from "meputtin" on gunbroker. i admit, i bought it as part of the panic. i am one of the buyers who would actually like to use it. i made an account here so i could share what ive learned so far. maybe it can be of some value to people. its not much, but here it goes...
ive been watching for a bcg as part of a build that does not break the bank. i found this one for $200 and got it. 2 days ago i made the purchase. i sent an email to "meputtin" asking for a phone number so i could pay with a credit card. i got a reply from dave smith and made the call. i spoke with a woman. pretty much the first thing i asked was who manufactured it. she said she didnt think she could tell me for some kind of confidentiality purpose. this immediately made me uncomfortable. she did say i could speak with dave for more info, but he was threading a barrel and she couldnt interupt him while machining. i gave my number and she said he would call. i began doing some online research, and found that dave smith is the owner of sns shooting supplies in ms. seems like they do custom work and machine some things like silencers. thats when i found this thread in this forum. at that point i was super worried. for certain i bought complete junk. it was about an hour later when dave smith called me back. perhaps the most southern sounding guy ive ever spoken with. i asked who manufactured the bcg, and he would not say. he told me he just didnt want to reveal his source for a number of reasons. the reasons he stated are normal reasons of wholesale/retail consideration. although it may be rare in this industry, it is normal in other industries as this i know for sure because i am a wholesaler in a different industry. for about the next 45 min i spoke with dave about several things. he was very nice and very talkative. he knows a considerable amount of knowledge about custom work with other firearms. some important elements came out that i think you guys might be interested in. i pretty much told him that after doing research online about this particular bcg from him, that i was scared to use it. he told me i could cancel my order if i wished but he had total confidence in the product. he told me about the no bs lifetime warrenty and he was sincere. i dont see a problem with that. he also told me that when he does ar type builds that he always uses this bcg and has had no complaints. i asked him spesificly about the bcg in this thread with this particular problem. he told me all about pretty much everything thats been covered here already. he told me that he believes it was a heat treating issue, but was not 100% sure yet and was waiting on the manufacturer. he told me the bcgs for sale now are of a different batch. he also told me freely how he angered people online in forums because of his more or less straight forward opinions and interactions. he does seem like a pretty straight forward guy. after about 30 min talking to him, i assured him i was just a guy doing a build and in no way trying to infringe on his bcg source. i was still really sketchy though because i didnt want to risk bodily harm or damage to my firearm. i more or less begged him to give me more information on the bcg he was selling. at that point, perhaps the most important thing he said came forward. he wouldnt tell me who made it, but he told me this: he said it is made by a big manufacturer in the midwest. he also told me that this exact same bcg is sold at midway usa under there house brand of the ar stoner bcg. in all, i talked to him for about 45 min. i ended up letting him go because i felt like i was taking up too much of his time, but he would have continued to talk with me for longer had i wanted. he was a pretty nice guy. i cant comment on the quality of the product becasue i dont have it yet, but i think i can say that dave is not trying to sell junk. i believe that he believes that these are quality bcgs. he also, without me asking, told me the metals used in the bcg parts. they are as stated earlier in this thread, and in midways ar stoner bcg. i questioned the bolt material and he believes in his opinion, that its better. im not trying to troll, just stating what he was saying. he has strong favorable opinions of this bcg.
so im wondering.... does anyone know who the midwest manufacturer of the midway ar stoner bcg is? because that would be the manufacturer of this bcg according to dave himself.
i hope this may have helped someone here in some way. that was my only reason for posting.
be safe.
I had the same conversation with him. After seeing the similarities between this BCG and the AR-stoner I too believed that they could have been made by the same manufacturer. The BCG I received as a replacement has been flawless so far but there are the armchair know-it-alls like ar-15tech guy that says my rifle is dangerous with no basis to back up his statement as he has no evidence of what batch my BCG came from. Just like most posts on an internet forum; take them with a grain of salt. Everyone knows everything on the internet.
jarmstrong1029
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Posted: 2/13/2013 2:16:19 PM

Originally Posted By Richard-ar15:
This whole thing about the seller downplaying it as an "isolated incident" and also a heat-treating issue has me scratching my head.

They run the hardening operation in batches, do they not? How many bolts in a batch? 100? 200? etc.



Some manufacturers test every single bolt, I believe. But I'm guessing this is batch tested. Which makes it even more important to figure out the cause and build date.
crythzuel
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Posted: 2/13/2013 2:18:30 PM
well, im really curious who makes this now after reading all this and purchasing one. i think we can safely say this is the ar stoner bcg sold at midway. but i cant find any info on that really, except dave saying its made in the midwest. does anyone what manufacturer that is?
ricochet7
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Posted: 2/13/2013 2:55:58 PM
If I remember correctly, 8620 was the steel used in the original colt/armalite rifle bolts, and this was the original spec. Then later C158 was phased in as a better alternative, which it is. Your 8620 bolts will not self destruct in 30-60 rounds if properly heat-treated, but also are not the bolt I would choose, especially in a carbine. C158, 9310 and AeroMet are much better steels of choice, but also more expensive and harder to machine - thus more expensive. AR-Stoner accepts 8620 as good enough, I personally do not.

Someone, correct me if I am wrong. I will look for more data on this and post it if found. Also, I do not mind being corrected if my info is incorrect.
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SCPossum1
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Posted: 2/13/2013 9:13:00 PM
From the info I am gathering - after my bolt sheared the lugs last Friday on the fourth round down the barrel- there are at least three dealers/distributors that have used this batch of bolts in their carriers. My question is how many manufacturers make bolts in the US? Most i can find is six. Not everyone has the ability to produce bolts( I wouldn't think). I have heard from two sources that these bolts came from the midwest. Wonder if that is who made them or coated them?

Can someone post the different manufacturers who has more knowledge than I do
Alaska511
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Posted: 2/13/2013 10:23:23 PM
Originally Posted By ricochet7:
If I remember correctly, 8620 was the steel used in the original colt/armalite rifle bolts, and this was the original spec. Then later C158 was phased in as a better alternative, which it is. Your 8620 bolts will not self destruct in 30-60 rounds if properly heat-treated, but also are not the bolt I would choose, especially in a carbine. C158, 9310 and AeroMet are much better steels of choice, but also more expensive and harder to machine - thus more expensive. AR-Stoner accepts 8620 as good enough, I personally do not.

Someone, correct me if I am wrong. I will look for more data on this and post it if found. Also, I do not mind being corrected if my info is incorrect.


There are now a couple of different "brands" showing up in that giant BGC thread that are using 4140 for bolt steel. What's the take on this?

I know there are some barrels out there that are 4140, and they are frowned upon (no clue why, I don't own one) so I am curious about that steel being used for a bolt Perhaps the heat treating is the key, I am not sure.
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