Does that mean they are not true? So you need to meet einstein to believe his theories





You are ONE sample size, which really means nothing. You get 4-5 guys posting about the same problems, with pics and reports then it becomes a trend.





Fact: BM is under new management, there are more reports now about BM than there were 7-8 years ago. But since its on the net and you have not seen the trend on this site becuase you are new, then you will just disregard it.





 

What does it say about the person behind the weapon when they purposely choose known inferior products?

Also, he missed the part where you DON"T have to spend more money for a better product. That the crux of the situation. If BMs were $950 and Colt/BCM/DD were $2500, you'd have a point. But they don't. I've laid out why the price argument holds no water.

Agree, but then I did state just what AR I would currently purchase and Bushmaster, due to pricing and cost, was not it.

I bought a Bushmaster this year and it has been 100%.  I also had one that I bought in 2005. Same exact model and I can't tell any difference between the two.  They are a little over priced but I wanted to get the model back I had to sell.

My experience with the "old" Bushmaster was quite the opposite. I built quite a few ARs from scratch using Bushmaster parts back in the late 80s early 90s. Back then when we got new Colts the first thing we did was take off the 1-7 barrel and put a Bushmaster 1-9 on. All the barrels I got from them were great. This was before AR15.com and 1-7 was considered undesirable. Their service was exceptional too. One reason I had switched to them back then was from getting a couple Colts A2s that wouldn't function out of the box. Slightly disenchanted. So by your reasoning I guess that would make Colt the biggest POS on the planet as well. We all know that would be a poor blanket statement to make. Same as saying Bushmaster were pieces of shit because a "friend" got a bad barrel and some LPKs were less than stellar. Different times now with better parts much easier to get.

Don't get me wrong, I experienced a few parts from Bushy that I was less than happy with. We all remember the purple receiver days. I got a few LPKs from them that I was less than happy with too. But at least the pins were the right size and they weren't installing receiver blocks in in their lowers. Any issues I had we're handled quickly and to my satisfaction.

These days I wouldn't pick a WW rifle or a Bushmaster simply because there are so many better choices for the money.  Not saying either is a bad rifle. Just lacking a few things I'd prefer.  But I do think WW is making steps in the right direction. Maybe new Bushy is too.

Yes look at the posts of the multiple broken Colt bolts as well as the problems people here on ARFcom have with their "High Dollar Rigs".
It is always the same, Oh company XYZ will take care of that they are a top tier company just contact them.
but if it is a "perceived" lower end company and you have a problem you just bought junk, no need to send it back to
get it fixed just throw it in the trash and buy XYZ. Just My 2C and as always YMMV.

Mil-spec does not mean fail proof, what other AR clones have you carried/used in the same environments, subject to the same conditions as a Colt and does not fail? You only see Colts fail because there is no others, do you think a clones built to a lesser than mil-spec, quality of materials will fare better?

If Colts are so horribly why so many cloning it?

I bought a Bushmaster made in the early 2000s and it was a decent rifle.  However, I would not buy one again.  For the price, you can get a rifle that has a much better reputation and is made with better materials that are more precisely machined.  My Bushy ran fine for about 3k rounds before I started having minor issues with it.  I was starting to have rounds not go fully into battery, the bolt would occasionally get caught up on the buffer detent to where I would have to rotate the detent to charge the weapon, and the trigger became extremely stiff and gritty.  I spent a lot of time and money trying to get my Bushmaster to the level I wanted it but never was completely happy and ended up selling it off at a considerable loss to go to an LMT and I have never looked back or regretted the change for a second.  I have bought several more ARs since the LMT (KAC, LWRCi, Colt, ++) and my LMT is still my go to rifle.  I

Spend the extra $100-200 and have a rifle that has a solid reputation backing it.... it does a lot for your confidence.

I personally hate the term mil-spec and would like my rifles to exceed the military standard.

Bushmaster
 

LMT

In order:
-No, it does no mean they are untrue.  I simply replied with my experiences to the OP.
But thanks for the sarcasm with the Einstein reference.
-I realize my sample size is insignificant, but the information is still valid.  
-My join date has nothing to do with that fact, and I have read just as many reports to the contrary.


Thanks for pulling what you needed from my post.  I am not defending them, and have no reason to.  I replied to the OP.  I would say just as much about any of my firearms including Colt, etc.  I do truly regret it, now however

I bought a '99 Bushmaster new & in those days it was pretty much Colt or Bushmaster..period! It has been a great AR but I can't say what Bushmaster's quality control is now, so can't recommend.
Now, there are so many companies & most people here love the brand they bought! Forums are a great source, but more info is needed to make a purchase decision.

I recommend taking the time to really learn about the AR's structure & how it works. Then you have more than just forums, "mine is best", & "OUR'S IS THE BEST" web sites & what to look out for.
For example, the bolt is the most critical part IMUO, needs to be the right steel, construction, quality control, etc etc.. You will probably discover you get what you pay for!
There are great DVD's  & Patrick Sweeney's book is excellent easy to understand.

Happy hunting for YOUR AR !~!
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This is from 2010 (I couldn't find the actual survey). But Bushmaster leads the industry in AR-15 rifle sales with 12%, while Colt holds 6% of the market. So I highly doubt that we don't hear more about Bushmaster problems because of a lack in sample size.

Article

I said, "... I'd bet there are a lot more people buying PSA and Colt rifles on here than Bushy rifles."

Forum users generally are more discriminating buyers. Only a small % of gun owners are on the forums.

Also, I believe that the national average for rounds fired per gun post purchase is 3. So, these bushmasters are bought by less discriminating buyers (because of their massive dealer network) thrown in the safe and barely fired. Walmart carries BM, not BCM.

Hearing range reports of "I shot 60 rounds the other day, and my tier 2/3 xyz gun ran fine! It's good enough for me!" never, ever gets old.

No one puts down Bushy/RRA/Delton/DPMS because they want to "feel good for paying more for a Colt/BCM/DD". That is simply not true. People put down the former brands because they skimp on QC and QA with not enough of a price difference to justify it. Bushmaster simply does not offer a good enough price difference to justify buying one when a much better Colt, Daniel Defense, BCM, or LMT is just a few hundred dollars more. Hell, even a PSA is much better and is around Bushy prices.

I cannot fathom, for the life of me, why people skimp and cut cheap deals on fighting guns like AR's, but yet the hobby in its nature is super expensive. What is $200 extra for a quality gun, when a case of ammo is over $300?

Actually, if you had kept reading the article, you would have seen that the survey was taken only by internet users, found on the forums.

I own a bushmaster, shoots steel ammo all day every day.  My Noveske shoots better, but the cost difference was substantial. I don't understand why they catch the heat that they do.

I also cannot think of reasons not to buy one.  I do own one but only since about 2007 so Im not sure If Im supposed to have a good one or not.  It was my first AR and if I had it to do over, or had found this website earlier I would have went a different route.  I'd do this by just a matter of personal preferance not necessity as my Bushy has worked like a champ.  It has chewed up and spit out any ammo that I have fed it.
The best Ive found since is a Del Ton Middy for less than I paid for my BM ORC.  Im unsure of the quality that it has but looks tight and the price was right.

You know, I just observe, but when I go to my public range its heart warming to see at least 2 or 3 ARs on the line EVERY time Im there.  The majority of the ones I see are the cheaper Colts and the DPMS Oracles.  Never seen so much as a hiccup out of em.

Sure these folks arent melting the barrells off of em or dipping em in mud and sand prior to firing but it looks to me that they are all serving their intended purpose; lotta bang, little buck.

Thats funny I thought Colt sold there rifles with Accuwedges' installed...

I've only put 60 rounds down my WW ar so far, and I have NO problems with sharing any and all problems I have with that rifle. I know it doesn't speak of ALL of them that are being made.

I am curious to know what differences in the ar's from the old original bushmasters and the new windhams.

As far as the le6920's available at walmart also, of the several I have handled, I saw nothing that warranted me spending another 325 bucks for it. Colt may have a better history than all others, but damn, they have been around a lot longer too. If I recall, it sure seems like there was a lot of hate for them in vietnam, but what do I really know since I wasn't there.

One thing is for sure, Colt must be pumping these things out since Walmart is carrying them. If I recall correctly, Walmart typically buys from manufacturers in bulk and I'd have a hard time believing that colt did not shear something off the non critical specs for commercial market to get that deal.

In any case, if there are any defects in the WW I have, then I would expect that if it's a manufacturing issue, Windham will make good on it as stated by their warranty. I'm still trying to find out what stag and colt's warranty actually is. edit to add: Found colt's and stag's warranty. Doesn't seem to be transferable. Is that a deal breaker, not to me.

Paid $795 for mine, same model as Finslayer. Over 2200 rounds later with only two malfunctions, both stuck steel cases. Shoot primarily steel through it. Are they good? Yeah, I'd say so. I'm pleased with the fit and finish on mine, everything is machined well and clean. Are there better rifles out there? Sure. There's also worse. It all depends on what your buddy wants. There is no reason not to buy one if it's reasonably priced.

 

My ban era Bushy has been 100% also.  I like my Cols more, but that has more to do with how I use them. I don't like the way Bushmaster screwed  the folks in Maine, so I'd buy a Windham Weapon AR if I hade to choose between them and Bushmaster.

My early 90s bushy has never had a jam or misfire with any ammo I have put in it. Today models I can 't say.

Don't have any experience with current Bushmaster because all my pre 2000 Bushmasters are working great.

What is considered newer? My first AR is a 2004 carbine that I purchased the first Payday after the ban went away. Had all the cool features on it and was still marked LEO only. Has never malfunctioned in 4000+ rounds.

I think he meant old, old bushmaster from the days when ABC was the arfcom mantra. Armalite Bushmaster Colt.

The one Windham I fiddled with at the LGS the other week was and finished as good or better than the best Bushy I ever saw in those days.

Message inbound.

After considering a variety of different responses, some direct and some indirect, I've decided to heed the advice of the flightless one.

OP, as well as any other new users:

There is a lot of experience and a lot of information on this board.  While many people come to ARFCOM with a pretty good base of knowledge and experience before becoming a member of our online community - there is still a lot of wisdom in the "read more, post less" philosophy.

At the end of the day, anyone can "claim" any amount of experience in a single internet forum post.  I myself am a career Delta Team 6 Ranger CIA SAD Sniper JTAC with 1,337 confirmed kills from Vietnam to Canada... oops, I wasn't supposed to tell you about that last one.  Also, you might not know it, but I am actually a founding member of the "Carbine Class Coalition," and invented not only direct gas impingement, but gas in general.  I swear!  You can believe me, it's on the internet, and it's not depraved pornography, so it must be the truth!  I'd prove it to you, but my DD214 got lost in the famous records fire, and I signed an above top secret non-disclosure agreement that's binding, not only for me, but for my children's chidlren's children, up to and including until the second coming.   But I swear it's all true.  

My point is, I can type whatever I want - but part of what you get from "read more, post less" is that you have an opportunity to actually "get to know" who some of the posters are, whether or not you might ever meet them in person - and once you've read enough, it's not hard to deceipher who actually has real world, practical experience and knowledge, and who is blowing hot air, and hiding behind one facade or another.  While you can "fake" knowing what the hell you're talking about from one post to the next, it's far more difficult to keep it up and be consistent.  

This is independant of both join dates and post counts as well - some people have racked up impressive post counts over the last decade in the GD, and don't know shit.  Some people just joined, and only post once in a while, but almost every single post they make is a good, insightful, and valuable piece of information.  

Any time you make a post on a public forum, the peanut gallery will invariably chime in.  Sometimes you'll agree with them, sometimes you'll disagree with them - but they're still the peanut gallery.  Anyone reading needs to learn to sift through who belongs to the peanut gallery, and who might actually have something useful to contribute.  And sometimes you'll disagree with knowledgeable posters that have a history of well formed and researched opinions.  It happens, not everyone will agree on everything.  And everyone has biases - when you "read more" you'll learn what even the most knowledgeable posters' personal biases are, and it will help you to interpret their opinions and decide whether or not it applies to you.  

There have been a lot of respondants in this thread with a lot of opinions.  Take the time to see not only what was posted, but by whom.  You sometimes find that it's a little more one-sided than what a first glance would originally suggest.  

Anyways, that's my unsolicted two cents in the bottom of the wishing well, since no one will ever follow this advice, and we'll field these flare ups once a week every week in perpetuity.  

~Augee

As always, your posts lay it on the table.

Oh, and opsec on the Canada thing there boss.

There's nothing wrong with them. A lot of cops carry them.

If buying a rifle lends credibility to an opinion, here are my issues with BM based on the Bushmaster M4 Patrolman's Carbine I owned, and subsequently traded as part of a deal for a SCAR 16:

The most telling thing about a company is what they choose to do, despite knowing about the issues:
-We all know that BM doesn't use F-marked FSBs. So what? I could still zero mine, albeit with more difficulty and less flexibility than I would like. Well, the issue is this - BM knows they don't use proper height FSBs. They sell tall FSP posts. They're in their catalog. You can buy them for like $5. So why don't their rifles come with tall FSPs that would be appropriate for their FSBs, and that they carry as part of their normal inventory?. To save something on the order of $1 a rifle for them? That's pretty telling.
-My gas key wasn't properly staked. In fact, I thought one of the screws was undertorqued. It was actually undersized. Seriously?
-The carbine was overgassed. I understand the reasons for overgassing, and for some users it actually produces a more reliable experience. But if you know you overgas, why not give me an H buffer to help offset the problems it causes? An H buffer would add less than $10 to the cost of a rifle.

Balancing quality with cost is just part of life, but I came away feeling like Bushmaster cut signficant corners, but when it came to addressing them with known, easy and cheap fixes they just shrugged and said "eff it. I'd rather keep the $11."

Add to these issues the other compromises that BM made (1:9 twist, barrel steel, extractor type, BCG type, etc.), and I felt that the price I paid for the Bushmaster ($850) not at all the bargain I thought it was when I bought it. I was quite fond of the rifle regardless, because it was my first AR15. But I do feel it was like my high school girlfriend - a sentimental attachment to an object of affection that probably didn't deserve the emotion I gave it.

At today's prices, call it $975 for the M4 flattop model vs $1050 for a Colt 6920 or $900 for a Sig M400, I know I wouldn't buy the Bushmaster again.

And this means anything?

I mean really, what is that supposed to mean?

It means that money is tight and the department got a great deal on them.
it also means that like 90% of most users they will never shoot it enough
to break it or wear it out.

This....

Now back to our regular schedule programming.

Buy whaterver rifle you want, but i have a bushmaster carbon 15 and it has never gave any issue whatsoever. I am pleased with the price i gave for it and finish and quality look fine to me. I have installed a 223 scope with rangefinder on it and couldn't be happier...Thank you bushmaster......

Since you brought this back up...

This pretty much mirrors my experience. While mine has worked fine (full disclosure:it isn't pushed hard at all, so I know it's a testament to nothing) I don't think the gun was a good value. I'm annoyed that there are simple things BM could have done to make it better, but neglected to. I still have it, but I wouldn't buy another one.

It doesn't make any sense to buy a questionable quality AR for the price you can get a Colt.... Unless you got an awesome deal you're just taking a risk for no good reason.

Yeah, I would still make the trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday (I got a basically new SCAR for the bushy with upgrades and a similarly equipped Stag 2T, no cash), but I'd be lying if I said I don't sometimes wish I could have kept the Bushy even with all of its faults. It wasn't that it was a bad gun, just that it wasn't a good buy for what I paid for it.

I actually considered buying it back when the new owner put it on the market. With the free float Midwest rail and Magpul MOE grip and stock I put on it (cost me another $275 on top of the rifle), I would have paid him $800 for it and considered it fair, call it $600 for the rifle and $200 for the upgrades.

In the end the rational side of me says I am better off that someone else was willing to pay more than that.

Like Reagan said to Carter "there you go again".  Sorry dude...you're not going to convince me.  I own several Colt and RRA's.  The internet is bastion of sword fighters trying to see who's is bigger.

You can throw commercial grade, hobby gun, Tier 2, 3, 4 or 5 all you want.  Additionally, I don't place much creditability on opinions from "the" experts who are pimping their own product or paid to push someone else's by slamming down another manufacturer.  Certainly, there are a few makes out there that are universally known to keep one's dollar from.  

With that said, I would grab any of my RRA's to defend my family from harm.  The commercial grade tube (which none of mine have btw) is not going to interfere with rounds going down range hitting the bad guy...real or imaginary.
Many of my RRA's have thousands of rounds from cheap sheot to match grade with out a hiccup.  One of my RRA middies has approximately 7,000 rounds down the stainless barrel - not a single component failure.... imagine that.  

Now I don't have a dog in the Bushmaster fight and I would not disparage someone who owns or was considering to purchase a Bushie.  Also, I believe it foolish to categorize brands of AR's that are only for the purpose of shooting at paper.  There is not a single person on this board that would volunteer to be a backstop (stationary or moving) for someone using a non-Colt, LMT, DD, Noveske, BCM, AR pattern rifle.  Why? Simply you can not tell a damn bit of difference between a Colt or Bushmaster when on the receiving end.  

Absolutely agree with the current pricing from the likes of Colt, PSA, Spikes, and DD it makes a whole heck of a lot of sense to consider their rifles over some of the other manufactures when comparing certain specs.

EOD55's statement about "there is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon" happens to be a message lost on many who worry about the roll mark.   SGT York and Carlos Hathcock come to mind, although there are many others.        

Again, back to our regular schedule programming.

I still have mine mainly because I figured it wouldn't sell well and because for quite a while there wasn't many other options for a dissipator set-up. I was lucky enough to get the Spike's tactical version which I think is better thought out. For now the bushy just gets to live in pickups and tractors and generally beat around.

The only Bushmaster I would stay completely away from is the Carbon-15.

I am sure the new Bushmasters are good, just IMO they are overpriced for what they are.

How many of the following does the Bushmaster have:

158 steel bolt - ?
Chrome lined, 11595E barrel steel - ?
Chrome lined bore and chamber - ?
Properly staked gas key - ?
HPT/MPI testing done on bolt or barrel, batch/individual - ?
M4 feed ramps - ?
Black Extractor Insert - ?
M16 bolt carrier - ?
.Mil spec receiver extension - ?

I believe that BM only has a few of those, why IMO it's worth the few hundred to get one that has all of them.

I was going to buy a bushy originally but realized I could build a better rifle for less money so I went that route.

I own a Carbon 15. Only reason I got it was because a friend of mine was in need of quick cash and said it was mine for $400 if I wanted it. Bought it , put a slidefire stock on it , run the hell out of it everytime I go to the gun club. 1 year and 3,500 rounds of bumpfire abuse later and NO CLEANING and it still dumps a full 30 round mag with no problems. I run it till the rifle is smoking hot and keep feeding it. I am basically trying to break it , and it won't break. Maybe if I slam it into a metal post a few times I will accomplish my goal. I don't understand the Carbon 15 / polymer rifle hate. Mine hasn't failed me yet. Would I want it as my go to rifle? No. Would I pay $750 retail for it? No. But it is what it is , a cheap rifle that is a decent starter rifle for someone that wants to plink at the range. I'm going to the gun club today for Black Rifle Friday , I'll let you know if the piece of crap finally breaks.

Aimless - you hit the 10 ring.  

Fact is most of the commentary on this board is based on emotion.  Statistically a fact, every manufacturer produces a lemon.  Fact, posters to this board do provide negative commentary based on their experience with Colt, LMT, Noveske, DD, etc.  Many with pictures to prove their claim.  

Fact - many people are unable to afford the higher price point of LMT, Noveske, or DD.  

Fact, I indicated in my earlier post other options at or near the same price point of a Bushmaster that currently possess better market appeal - of which I own three from one of those manufacturers.

As I said before...I do not disparage anyone who owns or is considering to purchase a Bushmaster....unlike many on this board.  I often chuckle at remarks when people use labels like hobby gun, commercial grade, recreational, for these labels are misleading.  Ask a Marine, or Army grunt if they care the enemy shooting at them was issued a AK from mother Russia or made in a back ally bazaar in Pakistan.  If the damn thing functions, it does not matter what conforming or non-conforming spec was used.

Also, it does not serve a purpose to make things personal when someone chooses differently than we would... as often happens on this board.  I am not here to promote Bushmaster.  However, the market would had crushed Bushmaster into the ash heap of history a long time ago.  The gun market is too competitive and margins too thin for a company to survive if it does not sell product, or the volume of RMA's is a significant ratio of what they produce.      

Ask any one that knows a damn thing about weapons - and they'd say they'd much rather have their enemy carry a back alley Paki-special than a well built Russian AKM.  

I am convinced the number one reason for the legend of the AK's reliability is you only ever notice them when they're working.  Everything seems reliable when it's actively shooting at you.  I've seen a lot of AKs of various makes and models go down, more than I have seen M16s or M4s.  Crappy copies and poorly maintained weapons will shit the bed regardless of design - and it's my sincerest hope than any and all of my enemies in the future will have similar weapons, and not well maintained, in spec, quality produced firearms.  

~Augee

I gave up trying to prosthelytize about AR brands after I realized that I wasn't going to overcome the emotional attachment a person had with his chosen rollmark. It's better this way, really. I'd rather he just buy an AR and add one more black rifle owner to the population than waste too much time trying to explain how my odyssey led me to believe what I do.

As for Bushmaster, the fact that they have not been consigned to the scrap heap of history is a testament to the fact that they truly understand their market. They know that when their target market will not fire nearly enough rounds, on average, to discern the difference between a mediocre part and a good one, that they are better off skimping on the quality and deploying the dollars for marketing, and distribution heft instead. They understand that when the quality of parts is hard to understand, the casual buyer will take cues from visual similarity ("it looks and feels just like the real thing!"). A prospective customer in a store can judge fit and finish - it is more difficult for him to judge relative qualitty of visually similar materials.

It doesn't take a sophisticated statistical analysis to conclude that people who own Bushmasters are more likely to add a UTG rail or NCStar scope to it than the average Colt owner. Just browse your local gun board or ARMSLIST. Or even these forums. And that makes total sense. You save a lot of money, get a visually similar product that is likely to perform acceptably under the conditions that that user is going to subject the platform to.

In some ways, it's like the ultra cheapo toilet paper they sell at Walmart. It looks a lot like better toilet paper, but is noticeably less expensive. If you only have to use it occasionally, it's not that much different from the better stuff. It still wipes your ass. If it tends to fail somewhat more often than a better brand, well, you compensate and deal with it. Like LE agencies that dictate which rifle to use, you'll use what you are given if you need to use the restroom at the gas station. But chances are, if you are buying for yourself to use all the time, and you happen to go to the bathroom a lot, you'll probably prefer to pay 10% more for Downey ultrasoft, so you don't hurt your ass and get shit on your hands regularly.

Totally agree with your synopsis. Bushmaster fills their Niche VERY well.

That said, in a thread technical forum a thread entitled "why not buy a bushmaster" , it's stupid to just parot "same thing! same thing! people just like their roll marks". When the topic comes up (once again, in a tech forum) debating the technical and practical differences between AR brands is not inappropriate. Someone coming to the forum asking for technical discussion should be afforded that technical based discussion and not be inundated with non-arguements like "it doesn't matter, it's the guy behind the rifle that matters".

If someone comes to a tech forum and asks for technical input and advice in order to make a decision it's inappropriate to give them advice based on non-technical arguements. I don't care if they decide to buy a KAC or OLY so long as that decision is made with the full input and understanding of the differences between them.

"Stupid people overpaying for their rifle when a bushmaster is cheaper" is not technical in any way.

Some of you guys would do far more service sending people to read pages 44-50

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31318209/United-States-Special-Operations-Command-Navsea-Centers-SOPMOD-Program-Overview-for-the-National-Defense-Industrial-Association-Small-Arms-Symposium-1

Right now I would not buy a new Bushmaster due to cost vs features and the fact the old company located in Maine 15 years ago was better, but then I would not buy a Colt 6920 at the moment.