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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 5:45:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/20/2012 5:46:26 AM EST by TaylorWSO]

Originally Posted By Alaska511:


I have one in .308, and have shot many others. I have yet to see an issue, or meet any of these people with the failures that are posted on the web.


Does that mean they are not true? So you need to meet einstein to believe his theories

You are ONE sample size, which really means nothing. You get 4-5 guys posting about the same problems, with pics and reports then it becomes a trend.

Fact: BM is under new management, there are more reports now about BM than there were 7-8 years ago. But since its on the net and you have not seen the trend on this site becuase you are new, then you will just disregard it.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 5:49:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By Shaffer:
Originally Posted By EOD55:
There is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon. I have carried a colt M4 with high end optics, I've witnessed The almighty colt FAIL horribly thankfully it was training. I had about 260 M68 aim points under my care of which about 5 didn't work out of the box and another 2 "broke" within a month. So all of the people who bank on "milspec" guns and gear have obviously never been in the military. Mil spec just means the cheapest thing mass produced that will get the job done 70% of the time. Another thing is you do not have to spend more than $800-$900 on a reliable weapon. As long as you have a good barrel bolt and trigger the rest can be made by any of the manufacturers out there, many are made at the same places. With that and good quality springs for your ejector and extractor you will have a great rifle. Spend less on NAME and more on training and ammo. Whom ever disagrees more than likely has been out shot by a guy like me at the range, with a weapon system less than half the cost of theirs and the same end result. I'm sorry if anyone is offended, I don't care. I'm tired of the AR market being flooded with "high end" rifles that are over priced and manufactured along side DPMS, bushmaster and countless other "cheap" rifles. I wish the guys who have more money than sense and experience would stop giving bad advice.



The threads winner.

And the most important part emphasized.


What does it say about the person behind the weapon when they purposely choose known inferior products?

Also, he missed the part where you DON"T have to spend more money for a better product. That the crux of the situation. If BMs were $950 and Colt/BCM/DD were $2500, you'd have a point. But they don't. I've laid out why the price argument holds no water.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 6:03:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By Shaffer:
Originally Posted By EOD55:
There is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon. I have carried a colt M4 with high end optics, I've witnessed The almighty colt FAIL horribly thankfully it was training. I had about 260 M68 aim points under my care of which about 5 didn't work out of the box and another 2 "broke" within a month. So all of the people who bank on "milspec" guns and gear have obviously never been in the military. Mil spec just means the cheapest thing mass produced that will get the job done 70% of the time. Another thing is you do not have to spend more than $800-$900 on a reliable weapon. As long as you have a good barrel bolt and trigger the rest can be made by any of the manufacturers out there, many are made at the same places. With that and good quality springs for your ejector and extractor you will have a great rifle. Spend less on NAME and more on training and ammo. Whom ever disagrees more than likely has been out shot by a guy like me at the range, with a weapon system less than half the cost of theirs and the same end result. I'm sorry if anyone is offended, I don't care. I'm tired of the AR market being flooded with "high end" rifles that are over priced and manufactured along side DPMS, bushmaster and countless other "cheap" rifles. I wish the guys who have more money than sense and experience would stop giving bad advice.



The threads winner.

And the most important part emphasized.


What does it say about the person behind the weapon when they purposely choose known inferior products?

Also, he missed the part where you DON"T have to spend more money for a better product. That the crux of the situation. If BMs were $950 and Colt/BCM/DD were $2500, you'd have a point. But they don't. I've laid out why the price argument holds no water.



Agree, but then I did state just what AR I would currently purchase and Bushmaster, due to pricing and cost, was not it.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 6:24:24 AM EST
I bought a Bushmaster this year and it has been 100%. I also had one that I bought in 2005. Same exact model and I can't tell any difference between the two. They are a little over priced but I wanted to get the model back I had to sell.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 6:30:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Slu54:
Try Windham Weaponry, it's the same factory as pre-Remington Bushmaster.

the rifles made by the Windham Weaponry crew started bushmaster's reputation for unreliability. The biggest piece of shit lower parts kit I have ever seen came out of Maine, my buddy got multiple barrels from Maine with no hole drilled for the gas port.


My experience with the "old" Bushmaster was quite the opposite. I built quite a few ARs from scratch using Bushmaster parts back in the late 80s early 90s. Back then when we got new Colts the first thing we did was take off the 1-7 barrel and put a Bushmaster 1-9 on. All the barrels I got from them were great. This was before AR15.com and 1-7 was considered undesirable. Their service was exceptional too. One reason I had switched to them back then was from getting a couple Colts A2s that wouldn't function out of the box. Slightly disenchanted. So by your reasoning I guess that would make Colt the biggest POS on the planet as well. We all know that would be a poor blanket statement to make. Same as saying Bushmaster were pieces of shit because a "friend" got a bad barrel and some LPKs were less than stellar. Different times now with better parts much easier to get.

Don't get me wrong, I experienced a few parts from Bushy that I was less than happy with. We all remember the purple receiver days. I got a few LPKs from them that I was less than happy with too. But at least the pins were the right size and they weren't installing receiver blocks in in their lowers. Any issues I had we're handled quickly and to my satisfaction.

These days I wouldn't pick a WW rifle or a Bushmaster simply because there are so many better choices for the money. Not saying either is a bad rifle. Just lacking a few things I'd prefer. But I do think WW is making steps in the right direction. Maybe new Bushy is too.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 7:27:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By SamBram:
Everyone here always bashes them, and I really don't get it.

They own a huge share of the market, yet I don't remember the last time I saw someone post about an issue they were having with one.

Meanwhile, the two brands you see recommended here the most, rarely have more than a couple days between threads where people are having issues with quality.

I have never owned a Bushy, but every one I have fired has seemed solid.

Sam


Do some searching of my posts in the archives. I've had extensive experience with bushmasters. Also, do some reading from course AARs from places like EAG tactical. Talk to some high end trainers or read what they have to say. They've ALL seen major issues with brands like BM, DPMS, RRA, etc...


Yes look at the posts of the multiple broken Colt bolts as well as the problems people here on ARFcom have with their "High Dollar Rigs".
It is always the same, Oh company XYZ will take care of that they are a top tier company just contact them.
but if it is a "perceived" lower end company and you have a problem you just bought junk, no need to send it back to
get it fixed just throw it in the trash and buy XYZ. Just My 2C and as always YMMV.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 7:32:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By EOD55:
There is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon. I have carried a colt M4 with high end optics, I've witnessed The almighty colt FAIL horribly thankfully it was training. I had about 260 M68 aim points under my care of which about 5 didn't work out of the box and another 2 "broke" within a month. So all of the people who bank on "milspec" guns and gear have obviously never been in the military. Mil spec just means the cheapest thing mass produced that will get the job done 70% of the time. Another thing is you do not have to spend more than $800-$900 on a reliable weapon. As long as you have a good barrel bolt and trigger the rest can be made by any of the manufacturers out there, many are made at the same places. With that and good quality springs for your ejector and extractor you will have a great rifle. Spend less on NAME and more on training and ammo. Whom ever disagrees more than likely has been out shot by a guy like me at the range, with a weapon system less than half the cost of theirs and the same end result. I'm sorry if anyone is offended, I don't care. I'm tired of the AR market being flooded with "high end" rifles that are over priced and manufactured along side DPMS, bushmaster and countless other "cheap" rifles. I wish the guys who have more money than sense and experience would stop giving bad advice.


Mil-spec does not mean fail proof, what other AR clones have you carried/used in the same environments, subject to the same conditions as a Colt and does not fail? You only see Colts fail because there is no others, do you think a clones built to a lesser than mil-spec, quality of materials will fare better?

If Colts are so horribly why so many cloning it?
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 7:33:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/20/2012 7:39:23 AM EST by thornejc]
I bought a Bushmaster made in the early 2000s and it was a decent rifle. However, I would not buy one again. For the price, you can get a rifle that has a much better reputation and is made with better materials that are more precisely machined. My Bushy ran fine for about 3k rounds before I started having minor issues with it. I was starting to have rounds not go fully into battery, the bolt would occasionally get caught up on the buffer detent to where I would have to rotate the detent to charge the weapon, and the trigger became extremely stiff and gritty. I spent a lot of time and money trying to get my Bushmaster to the level I wanted it but never was completely happy and ended up selling it off at a considerable loss to go to an LMT and I have never looked back or regretted the change for a second. I have bought several more ARs since the LMT (KAC, LWRCi, Colt, ++) and my LMT is still my go to rifle. I

Spend the extra $100-200 and have a rifle that has a solid reputation backing it.... it does a lot for your confidence.

I personally hate the term mil-spec and would like my rifles to exceed the military standard.

Bushmaster


LMT


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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 9:17:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:

Originally Posted By Alaska511:


I have one in .308, and have shot many others. I have yet to see an issue, or meet any of these people with the failures that are posted on the web.


Does that mean they are not true? So you need to meet einstein to believe his theories

You are ONE sample size, which really means nothing. You get 4-5 guys posting about the same problems, with pics and reports then it becomes a trend.

Fact: BM is under new management, there are more reports now about BM than there were 7-8 years ago. But since its on the net and you have not seen the trend on this site becuase you are new, then you will just disregard it.


In order:
-No, it does no mean they are untrue. I simply replied with my experiences to the OP.
But thanks for the sarcasm with the Einstein reference.
-I realize my sample size is insignificant, but the information is still valid.
-My join date has nothing to do with that fact, and I have read just as many reports to the contrary.


Thanks for pulling what you needed from my post. I am not defending them, and have no reason to. I replied to the OP. I would say just as much about any of my firearms including Colt, etc. I do truly regret it, now however
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 9:19:38 AM EST
I don't know who will win, but regardless of who does, I will say the same thing: FBHO!-EdSr.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 9:48:25 AM EST
I bought a '99 Bushmaster new & in those days it was pretty much Colt or Bushmaster..period! It has been a great AR but I can't say what Bushmaster's quality control is now, so can't recommend.
Now, there are so many companies & most people here love the brand they bought! Forums are a great source, but more info is needed to make a purchase decision.

I recommend taking the time to really learn about the AR's structure & how it works. Then you have more than just forums, "mine is best", & "OUR'S IS THE BEST" web sites & what to look out for.
For example, the bolt is the most critical part IMUO, needs to be the right steel, construction, quality control, etc etc.. You will probably discover you get what you pay for!
There are great DVD's & Patrick Sweeney's book is excellent easy to understand.

Happy hunting for YOUR AR !~!
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 1:34:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By Muad:

Originally Posted By SamBram:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By SamBram:
Everyone here always bashes them, and I really don't get it.

They own a huge share of the market, yet I don't remember the last time I saw someone post about an issue they were having with one.

Meanwhile, the two brands you see recommended here the most, rarely have more than a couple days between threads where people are having issues with quality.

I have never owned a Bushy, but every one I have fired has seemed solid.

Sam


Do some searching of my posts in the archives. I've had extensive experience with bushmasters. Also, do some reading from course AARs from places like EAG tactical. Talk to some high end trainers or read what they have to say. They've ALL seen major issues with brands like BM, DPMS, RRA, etc...


My point was that you do not have to go digging through the archives to find problems with PSA or Colt, just hit the next page button and start counting.

I don't doubt that high end trainers have had problems with Bushmasters. But if those same high end trainers are using the same PSA and Colt rifles as the owners in this forum, they ought to have plenty to say about them too.

Then again, they may have the same double standards that exist here.

Sam
You see more posts about PSA and Colt because I'd bet that there are a lot more people buying PSA and Colt rifles on here than Bushy rifles. So, it's a numbers thing.

It's not double standards when you can purchase a rifle made from better materials for the same price, cheaper, or just a tad more expensive. Will a Bushy serve the average shooter fine - more than likely yes. However, if someone wants a rifle built from the highest quality materials, and that can be had at the same prices as the lower quality built rifle - why would you go with the latter?

ETA: Grammar




This is from 2010 (I couldn't find the actual survey). But Bushmaster leads the industry in AR-15 rifle sales with 12%, while Colt holds 6% of the market. So I highly doubt that we don't hear more about Bushmaster problems because of a lack in sample size.

Article
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 1:38:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By SamBram:
Originally Posted By Muad:

Originally Posted By SamBram:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By SamBram:
Everyone here always bashes them, and I really don't get it.

They own a huge share of the market, yet I don't remember the last time I saw someone post about an issue they were having with one.

Meanwhile, the two brands you see recommended here the most, rarely have more than a couple days between threads where people are having issues with quality.

I have never owned a Bushy, but every one I have fired has seemed solid.

Sam


Do some searching of my posts in the archives. I've had extensive experience with bushmasters. Also, do some reading from course AARs from places like EAG tactical. Talk to some high end trainers or read what they have to say. They've ALL seen major issues with brands like BM, DPMS, RRA, etc...


My point was that you do not have to go digging through the archives to find problems with PSA or Colt, just hit the next page button and start counting.

I don't doubt that high end trainers have had problems with Bushmasters. But if those same high end trainers are using the same PSA and Colt rifles as the owners in this forum, they ought to have plenty to say about them too.

Then again, they may have the same double standards that exist here.

Sam
You see more posts about PSA and Colt because I'd bet that there are a lot more people buying PSA and Colt rifles on here than Bushy rifles. So, it's a numbers thing.

It's not double standards when you can purchase a rifle made from better materials for the same price, cheaper, or just a tad more expensive. Will a Bushy serve the average shooter fine - more than likely yes. However, if someone wants a rifle built from the highest quality materials, and that can be had at the same prices as the lower quality built rifle - why would you go with the latter?

ETA: Grammar




This is from 2010 (I couldn't find the actual survey). But Bushmaster leads the industry in AR-15 rifle sales with 12%, while Colt holds 6% of the market. So I highly doubt that we don't hear more about Bushmaster problems because of a lack in sample size.

Article

I said, "... I'd bet there are a lot more people buying PSA and Colt rifles on here than Bushy rifles."

I could be wrong though. Thanks for the link either way.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 1:43:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By SamBram:
Originally Posted By Muad:

Originally Posted By SamBram:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By SamBram:
Everyone here always bashes them, and I really don't get it.

They own a huge share of the market, yet I don't remember the last time I saw someone post about an issue they were having with one.

Meanwhile, the two brands you see recommended here the most, rarely have more than a couple days between threads where people are having issues with quality.

I have never owned a Bushy, but every one I have fired has seemed solid.

Sam


Do some searching of my posts in the archives. I've had extensive experience with bushmasters. Also, do some reading from course AARs from places like EAG tactical. Talk to some high end trainers or read what they have to say. They've ALL seen major issues with brands like BM, DPMS, RRA, etc...


My point was that you do not have to go digging through the archives to find problems with PSA or Colt, just hit the next page button and start counting.

I don't doubt that high end trainers have had problems with Bushmasters. But if those same high end trainers are using the same PSA and Colt rifles as the owners in this forum, they ought to have plenty to say about them too.

Then again, they may have the same double standards that exist here.

Sam
You see more posts about PSA and Colt because I'd bet that there are a lot more people buying PSA and Colt rifles on here than Bushy rifles. So, it's a numbers thing.

It's not double standards when you can purchase a rifle made from better materials for the same price, cheaper, or just a tad more expensive. Will a Bushy serve the average shooter fine - more than likely yes. However, if someone wants a rifle built from the highest quality materials, and that can be had at the same prices as the lower quality built rifle - why would you go with the latter?

ETA: Grammar




This is from 2010 (I couldn't find the actual survey). But Bushmaster leads the industry in AR-15 rifle sales with 12%, while Colt holds 6% of the market. So I highly doubt that we don't hear more about Bushmaster problems because of a lack in sample size.

Article


Forum users generally are more discriminating buyers. Only a small % of gun owners are on the forums.

Also, I believe that the national average for rounds fired per gun post purchase is 3. So, these bushmasters are bought by less discriminating buyers (because of their massive dealer network) thrown in the safe and barely fired. Walmart carries BM, not BCM.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 2:22:09 PM EST
Hearing range reports of "I shot 60 rounds the other day, and my tier 2/3 xyz gun ran fine! It's good enough for me!" never, ever gets old.

No one puts down Bushy/RRA/Delton/DPMS because they want to "feel good for paying more for a Colt/BCM/DD". That is simply not true. People put down the former brands because they skimp on QC and QA with not enough of a price difference to justify it. Bushmaster simply does not offer a good enough price difference to justify buying one when a much better Colt, Daniel Defense, BCM, or LMT is just a few hundred dollars more. Hell, even a PSA is much better and is around Bushy prices.

I cannot fathom, for the life of me, why people skimp and cut cheap deals on fighting guns like AR's, but yet the hobby in its nature is super expensive. What is $200 extra for a quality gun, when a case of ammo is over $300?

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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 2:32:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By SamBram:
Originally Posted By Muad:

Originally Posted By SamBram:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By SamBram:
Everyone here always bashes them, and I really don't get it.

They own a huge share of the market, yet I don't remember the last time I saw someone post about an issue they were having with one.

Meanwhile, the two brands you see recommended here the most, rarely have more than a couple days between threads where people are having issues with quality.

I have never owned a Bushy, but every one I have fired has seemed solid.

Sam


Do some searching of my posts in the archives. I've had extensive experience with bushmasters. Also, do some reading from course AARs from places like EAG tactical. Talk to some high end trainers or read what they have to say. They've ALL seen major issues with brands like BM, DPMS, RRA, etc...


My point was that you do not have to go digging through the archives to find problems with PSA or Colt, just hit the next page button and start counting.

I don't doubt that high end trainers have had problems with Bushmasters. But if those same high end trainers are using the same PSA and Colt rifles as the owners in this forum, they ought to have plenty to say about them too.

Then again, they may have the same double standards that exist here.

Sam
You see more posts about PSA and Colt because I'd bet that there are a lot more people buying PSA and Colt rifles on here than Bushy rifles. So, it's a numbers thing.

It's not double standards when you can purchase a rifle made from better materials for the same price, cheaper, or just a tad more expensive. Will a Bushy serve the average shooter fine - more than likely yes. However, if someone wants a rifle built from the highest quality materials, and that can be had at the same prices as the lower quality built rifle - why would you go with the latter?

ETA: Grammar




This is from 2010 (I couldn't find the actual survey). But Bushmaster leads the industry in AR-15 rifle sales with 12%, while Colt holds 6% of the market. So I highly doubt that we don't hear more about Bushmaster problems because of a lack in sample size.

Article


Forum users generally are more discriminating buyers. Only a small % of gun owners are on the forums.

Also, I believe that the national average for rounds fired per gun post purchase is 3. So, these bushmasters are bought by less discriminating buyers (because of their massive dealer network) thrown in the safe and barely fired. Walmart carries BM, not BCM.


Actually, if you had kept reading the article, you would have seen that the survey was taken only by internet users, found on the forums.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 2:38:27 PM EST
I own a bushmaster, shoots steel ammo all day every day. My Noveske shoots better, but the cost difference was substantial. I don't understand why they catch the heat that they do.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 2:47:32 PM EST
I also cannot think of reasons not to buy one. I do own one but only since about 2007 so Im not sure If Im supposed to have a good one or not. It was my first AR and if I had it to do over, or had found this website earlier I would have went a different route. I'd do this by just a matter of personal preferance not necessity as my Bushy has worked like a champ. It has chewed up and spit out any ammo that I have fed it.
The best Ive found since is a Del Ton Middy for less than I paid for my BM ORC. Im unsure of the quality that it has but looks tight and the price was right.

You know, I just observe, but when I go to my public range its heart warming to see at least 2 or 3 ARs on the line EVERY time Im there. The majority of the ones I see are the cheaper Colts and the DPMS Oracles. Never seen so much as a hiccup out of em.

Sure these folks arent melting the barrells off of em or dipping em in mud and sand prior to firing but it looks to me that they are all serving their intended purpose; lotta bang, little buck.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 2:59:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By allensaldi:
Bushmaster, The reason Accuwedge was invented.




Thats funny I thought Colt sold there rifles with Accuwedges' installed...
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 3:34:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/20/2012 3:51:40 PM EST by xwarp]
Originally Posted By GADeerHunter:
Hearing range reports of "I shot 60 rounds the other day, and my tier 2/3 xyz gun ran fine! It's good enough for me!" never, ever gets old.

No one puts down Bushy/RRA/Delton/DPMS because they want to "feel good for paying more for a Colt/BCM/DD". That is simply not true. People put down the former brands because they skimp on QC and QA with not enough of a price difference to justify it. Bushmaster simply does not offer a good enough price difference to justify buying one when a much better Colt, Daniel Defense, BCM, or LMT is just a few hundred dollars more. Hell, even a PSA is much better and is around Bushy prices.

I cannot fathom, for the life of me, why people skimp and cut cheap deals on fighting guns like AR's, but yet the hobby in its nature is super expensive. What is $200 extra for a quality gun, when a case of ammo is over $300?



I've only put 60 rounds down my WW ar so far, and I have NO problems with sharing any and all problems I have with that rifle. I know it doesn't speak of ALL of them that are being made.

I am curious to know what differences in the ar's from the old original bushmasters and the new windhams.

As far as the le6920's available at walmart also, of the several I have handled, I saw nothing that warranted me spending another 325 bucks for it. Colt may have a better history than all others, but damn, they have been around a lot longer too. If I recall, it sure seems like there was a lot of hate for them in vietnam, but what do I really know since I wasn't there.

One thing is for sure, Colt must be pumping these things out since Walmart is carrying them. If I recall correctly, Walmart typically buys from manufacturers in bulk and I'd have a hard time believing that colt did not shear something off the non critical specs for commercial market to get that deal.

In any case, if there are any defects in the WW I have, then I would expect that if it's a manufacturing issue, Windham will make good on it as stated by their warranty. I'm still trying to find out what stag and colt's warranty actually is. edit to add: Found colt's and stag's warranty. Doesn't seem to be transferable. Is that a deal breaker, not to me.



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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 3:38:38 PM EST
Paid $795 for mine, same model as Finslayer. Over 2200 rounds later with only two malfunctions, both stuck steel cases. Shoot primarily steel through it. Are they good? Yeah, I'd say so. I'm pleased with the fit and finish on mine, everything is machined well and clean. Are there better rifles out there? Sure. There's also worse. It all depends on what your buddy wants. There is no reason not to buy one if it's reasonably priced.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 4:15:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Wyzardd:
I guess I haven't kept up with who owns who. My 1998 Bushmaster experience is probably irrelevant now, but it functioned nearly identically to the RRA except it (Bush) choked every time I tried Wolf.

My ban era bushmaster has been fine also, but mine runs wolf with no problem



My ban era Bushy has been 100% also. I like my Cols more, but that has more to do with how I use them. I don't like the way Bushmaster screwed the folks in Maine, so I'd buy a Windham Weapon AR if I hade to choose between them and Bushmaster.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 4:49:41 PM EST
My early 90s bushy has never had a jam or misfire with any ammo I have put in it. Today models I can 't say.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 5:38:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/20/2012 5:39:09 PM EST by Chris1NY]
Don't have any experience with current Bushmaster because all my pre 2000 Bushmasters are working great.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 5:40:39 PM EST
What is considered newer? My first AR is a 2004 carbine that I purchased the first Payday after the ban went away. Had all the cool features on it and was still marked LEO only. Has never malfunctioned in 4000+ rounds.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 5:45:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:
I have heard horror stories of the new bushmaster QC.

If you want a Bushmaster, buy a Windham instead. They are essentially the "old" bushmaster.

There's a ringing endorsement


I think he meant old, old bushmaster from the days when ABC was the arfcom mantra. Armalite Bushmaster Colt.

The one Windham I fiddled with at the LGS the other week was and finished as good or better than the best Bushy I ever saw in those days.
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Link Posted: 11/20/2012 5:52:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By EOD55:
There is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon. I have carried a colt M4 with high end optics, I've witnessed The almighty colt FAIL horribly thankfully it was training. I had about 260 M68 aim points under my care of which about 5 didn't work out of the box and another 2 "broke" within a month. So all of the people who bank on "milspec" guns and gear have obviously never been in the military. Mil spec just means the cheapest thing mass produced that will get the job done 70% of the time. Another thing is you do not have to spend more than $800-$900 on a reliable weapon. As long as you have a good barrel bolt and trigger the rest can be made by any of the manufacturers out there, many are made at the same places. With that and good quality springs for your ejector and extractor you will have a great rifle. Spend less on NAME and more on training and ammo. Whom ever disagrees more than likely has been out shot by a guy like me at the range, with a weapon system less than half the cost of theirs and the same end result. I'm sorry if anyone is offended, I don't care. I'm tired of the AR market being flooded with "high end" rifles that are over priced and manufactured along side DPMS, bushmaster and countless other "cheap" rifles. I wish the guys who have more money than sense and experience would stop giving bad advice.


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Link Posted: 11/21/2012 1:33:07 AM EST
After considering a variety of different responses, some direct and some indirect, I've decided to heed the advice of the flightless one.

OP, as well as any other new users:

There is a lot of experience and a lot of information on this board. While many people come to ARFCOM with a pretty good base of knowledge and experience before becoming a member of our online community - there is still a lot of wisdom in the "read more, post less" philosophy.

At the end of the day, anyone can "claim" any amount of experience in a single internet forum post. I myself am a career Delta Team 6 Ranger CIA SAD Sniper JTAC with 1,337 confirmed kills from Vietnam to Canada... oops, I wasn't supposed to tell you about that last one. Also, you might not know it, but I am actually a founding member of the "Carbine Class Coalition," and invented not only direct gas impingement, but gas in general. I swear! You can believe me, it's on the internet, and it's not depraved pornography, so it must be the truth! I'd prove it to you, but my DD214 got lost in the famous records fire, and I signed an above top secret non-disclosure agreement that's binding, not only for me, but for my children's chidlren's children, up to and including until the second coming. But I swear it's all true.

My point is, I can type whatever I want - but part of what you get from "read more, post less" is that you have an opportunity to actually "get to know" who some of the posters are, whether or not you might ever meet them in person - and once you've read enough, it's not hard to deceipher who actually has real world, practical experience and knowledge, and who is blowing hot air, and hiding behind one facade or another. While you can "fake" knowing what the hell you're talking about from one post to the next, it's far more difficult to keep it up and be consistent.

This is independant of both join dates and post counts as well - some people have racked up impressive post counts over the last decade in the GD, and don't know shit. Some people just joined, and only post once in a while, but almost every single post they make is a good, insightful, and valuable piece of information.

Any time you make a post on a public forum, the peanut gallery will invariably chime in. Sometimes you'll agree with them, sometimes you'll disagree with them - but they're still the peanut gallery. Anyone reading needs to learn to sift through who belongs to the peanut gallery, and who might actually have something useful to contribute. And sometimes you'll disagree with knowledgeable posters that have a history of well formed and researched opinions. It happens, not everyone will agree on everything. And everyone has biases - when you "read more" you'll learn what even the most knowledgeable posters' personal biases are, and it will help you to interpret their opinions and decide whether or not it applies to you.

There have been a lot of respondants in this thread with a lot of opinions. Take the time to see not only what was posted, but by whom. You sometimes find that it's a little more one-sided than what a first glance would originally suggest.

Anyways, that's my unsolicted two cents in the bottom of the wishing well, since no one will ever follow this advice, and we'll field these flare ups once a week every week in perpetuity.

~Augee
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Link Posted: 11/21/2012 3:56:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 3:56:37 AM EST by Finslayer83]
Originally Posted By Augee:
After considering a variety of different responses, some direct and some indirect, I've decided to heed the advice of the flightless one.

OP, as well as any other new users:

There is a lot of experience and a lot of information on this board. While many people come to ARFCOM with a pretty good base of knowledge and experience before becoming a member of our online community - there is still a lot of wisdom in the "read more, post less" philosophy.

At the end of the day, anyone can "claim" any amount of experience in a single internet forum post. I myself am a career Delta Team 6 Ranger CIA SAD Sniper JTAC with 1,337 confirmed kills from Vietnam to Canada... oops, I wasn't supposed to tell you about that last one. Also, you might not know it, but I am actually a founding member of the "Carbine Class Coalition," and invented not only direct gas impingement, but gas in general. I swear! You can believe me, it's on the internet, and it's not depraved pornography, so it must be the truth! I'd prove it to you, but my DD214 got lost in the famous records fire, and I signed an above top secret non-disclosure agreement that's binding, not only for me, but for my children's chidlren's children, up to and including until the second coming. But I swear it's all true.

My point is, I can type whatever I want - but part of what you get from "read more, post less" is that you have an opportunity to actually "get to know" who some of the posters are, whether or not you might ever meet them in person - and once you've read enough, it's not hard to deceipher who actually has real world, practical experience and knowledge, and who is blowing hot air, and hiding behind one facade or another. While you can "fake" knowing what the hell you're talking about from one post to the next, it's far more difficult to keep it up and be consistent.

This is independant of both join dates and post counts as well - some people have racked up impressive post counts over the last decade in the GD, and don't know shit. Some people just joined, and only post once in a while, but almost every single post they make is a good, insightful, and valuable piece of information.

Any time you make a post on a public forum, the peanut gallery will invariably chime in. Sometimes you'll agree with them, sometimes you'll disagree with them - but they're still the peanut gallery. Anyone reading needs to learn to sift through who belongs to the peanut gallery, and who might actually have something useful to contribute. And sometimes you'll disagree with knowledgeable posters that have a history of well formed and researched opinions. It happens, not everyone will agree on everything. And everyone has biases - when you "read more" you'll learn what even the most knowledgeable posters' personal biases are, and it will help you to interpret their opinions and decide whether or not it applies to you.

There have been a lot of respondants in this thread with a lot of opinions. Take the time to see not only what was posted, but by whom. You sometimes find that it's a little more one-sided than what a first glance would originally suggest.

Anyways, that's my unsolicted two cents in the bottom of the wishing well, since no one will ever follow this advice, and we'll field these flare ups once a week every week in perpetuity.

~Augee


As always, your posts lay it on the table.

Oh, and opsec on the Canada thing there boss.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 10:59:41 AM EST
There's nothing wrong with them. A lot of cops carry them.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 1:09:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/22/2012 1:14:18 PM EST by Proconsul]
Originally Posted By Elitesports:
I have a friend looking at a bushmaster at a gun shop. I have heard people say the older Bushmasters were great AR's but the newer ones are not so great. Why would you not buy a bushmaster now? What's wrong with bushmaster now if anything at all?


If buying a rifle lends credibility to an opinion, here are my issues with BM based on the Bushmaster M4 Patrolman's Carbine I owned, and subsequently traded as part of a deal for a SCAR 16:

The most telling thing about a company is what they choose to do, despite knowing about the issues:
-We all know that BM doesn't use F-marked FSBs. So what? I could still zero mine, albeit with more difficulty and less flexibility than I would like. Well, the issue is this - BM knows they don't use proper height FSBs. They sell tall FSP posts. They're in their catalog. You can buy them for like $5. So why don't their rifles come with tall FSPs that would be appropriate for their FSBs, and that they carry as part of their normal inventory?. To save something on the order of $1 a rifle for them? That's pretty telling.
-My gas key wasn't properly staked. In fact, I thought one of the screws was undertorqued. It was actually undersized. Seriously?
-The carbine was overgassed. I understand the reasons for overgassing, and for some users it actually produces a more reliable experience. But if you know you overgas, why not give me an H buffer to help offset the problems it causes? An H buffer would add less than $10 to the cost of a rifle.

Balancing quality with cost is just part of life, but I came away feeling like Bushmaster cut signficant corners, but when it came to addressing them with known, easy and cheap fixes they just shrugged and said "eff it. I'd rather keep the $11."

Add to these issues the other compromises that BM made (1:9 twist, barrel steel, extractor type, BCG type, etc.), and I felt that the price I paid for the Bushmaster ($850) not at all the bargain I thought it was when I bought it. I was quite fond of the rifle regardless, because it was my first AR15. But I do feel it was like my high school girlfriend - a sentimental attachment to an object of affection that probably didn't deserve the emotion I gave it.

At today's prices, call it $975 for the M4 flattop model vs $1050 for a Colt 6920 or $900 for a Sig M400, I know I wouldn't buy the Bushmaster again.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 1:14:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By karabin:
There's nothing wrong with them. A lot of cops carry them.


And this means anything?

I mean really, what is that supposed to mean?
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 2:00:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By GADeerHunter:
Originally Posted By karabin:
There's nothing wrong with them. A lot of cops carry them.


And this means anything?

I mean really, what is that supposed to mean?


It means that money is tight and the department got a great deal on them.
it also means that like 90% of most users they will never shoot it enough
to break it or wear it out.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 2:43:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By EOD55:
There is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon. I have carried a colt M4 with high end optics, I've witnessed The almighty colt FAIL horribly thankfully it was training. I had about 260 M68 aim points under my care of which about 5 didn't work out of the box and another 2 "broke" within a month. So all of the people who bank on "milspec" guns and gear have obviously never been in the military. Mil spec just means the cheapest thing mass produced that will get the job done 70% of the time. Another thing is you do not have to spend more than $800-$900 on a reliable weapon. As long as you have a good barrel bolt and trigger the rest can be made by any of the manufacturers out there, many are made at the same places. With that and good quality springs for your ejector and extractor you will have a great rifle. Spend less on NAME and more on training and ammo. Whom ever disagrees more than likely has been out shot by a guy like me at the range, with a weapon system less than half the cost of theirs and the same end result. I'm sorry if anyone is offended, I don't care. I'm tired of the AR market being flooded with "high end" rifles that are over priced and manufactured along side DPMS, bushmaster and countless other "cheap" rifles. I wish the guys who have more money than sense and experience would stop giving bad advice.


This....

Now back to our regular schedule programming.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 3:26:57 PM EST
Buy whaterver rifle you want, but i have a bushmaster carbon 15 and it has never gave any issue whatsoever. I am pleased with the price i gave for it and finish and quality look fine to me. I have installed a 223 scope with rangefinder on it and couldn't be happier...Thank you bushmaster......
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 3:29:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By Patriot556:
Originally Posted By EOD55:
There is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon. I have carried a colt M4 with high end optics, I've witnessed The almighty colt FAIL horribly thankfully it was training. I had about 260 M68 aim points under my care of which about 5 didn't work out of the box and another 2 "broke" within a month. So all of the people who bank on "milspec" guns and gear have obviously never been in the military. Lots of us who are banking on Mil-spec+ guns ARE in or have been in the military.

Mil spec just means the cheapest thing mass produced that will get the job done 70% of the time. Milspec is the specification laid out by the military. It can be better but can't be worse. It's the absolute lowest level of specification the military will allow. If it's not great, how does picking a weapon built to MUCH lower specifications any good. Your logic should push people towards MORE EXPENSIVE rifles.

Another thing is you do not have to spend more than $800-$900 on a reliable weapon. As long as you have a good barrel bolt and trigger the rest can be made by any of the manufacturers out there, many are made at the same places. With that and good quality springs for your ejector and extractor you will have a great rifle. What you failed (or ignored) to realize that all things being equal is that those features (ie: good quality bolt, bbl, trigger, springs) ARE what separate brands like BM, RRA, and DPMS from brands like BCM, Colt, and DD. Given a 6920 configuration from any of those brands some will be better and some will be worse. Lower grade materials, oversized gas port sizes, improperly reamed chambers characterized some of those brands but not others. Your statement basically reads:
You don't need to pay $800-900 on a reliable weaon. As long as you have all the features characterizing colt/BCM/DD but not DPMS/BM/RRA you'll have a reliable rifle.


Spend less on NAME and more on training and ammo. Whom ever disagrees more than likely has been out shot by a guy like me at the range You obviously have sooooo much to teach me. Where can I sign up for your fighting rifle classes? How many types of rifles have you run into the ground to find out their stopping point?, with a weapon system less than half the cost of theirs and the same end result. I'm sorry if anyone is offended, I don't care. I'm tired of the AR market being flooded with "high end" rifles that are over priced and manufactured along side DPMS, bushmaster and countless other "cheap" rifles. I wish the guys who have more money than sense and experience would stop giving bad advice.
What about guys who have less money and more experience? Can we give advice? I could have twice as many guns for what I spent on my DD and BCM had I bought BM and DPMS. You act like only rich under experienced idiots buy nice guns. I'll cede that you may "out shoot" me when benched. Frankly I'm not a great shooter. But, I have a metric crap-ton of experience watching ARs being abused and I know what rifles need to run well.


This....

Now back to our regular schedule programming.


Since you brought this back up...
Please, call me Joe

There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic

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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 4:51:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By Proconsul:
Originally Posted By Elitesports:
I have a friend looking at a bushmaster at a gun shop. I have heard people say the older Bushmasters were great AR's but the newer ones are not so great. Why would you not buy a bushmaster now? What's wrong with bushmaster now if anything at all?


If buying a rifle lends credibility to an opinion, here are my issues with BM based on the Bushmaster M4 Patrolman's Carbine I owned, and subsequently traded as part of a deal for a SCAR 16:

The most telling thing about a company is what they choose to do, despite knowing about the issues:
-We all know that BM doesn't use F-marked FSBs. So what? I could still zero mine, albeit with more difficulty and less flexibility than I would like. Well, the issue is this - BM knows they don't use proper height FSBs. They sell tall FSP posts. They're in their catalog. You can buy them for like $5. So why don't their rifles come with tall FSPs that would be appropriate for their FSBs, and that they carry as part of their normal inventory?. To save something on the order of $1 a rifle for them? That's pretty telling.
-My gas key wasn't properly staked. In fact, I thought one of the screws was undertorqued. It was actually undersized. Seriously?
-The carbine was overgassed. I understand the reasons for overgassing, and for some users it actually produces a more reliable experience. But if you know you overgas, why not give me an H buffer to help offset the problems it causes? An H buffer would add less than $10 to the cost of a rifle.

Balancing quality with cost is just part of life, but I came away feeling like Bushmaster cut signficant corners, but when it came to addressing them with known, easy and cheap fixes they just shrugged and said "eff it. I'd rather keep the $11."

Add to these issues the other compromises that BM made (1:9 twist, barrel steel, extractor type, BCG type, etc.), and I felt that the price I paid for the Bushmaster ($850) not at all the bargain I thought it was when I bought it. I was quite fond of the rifle regardless, because it was my first AR15. But I do feel it was like my high school girlfriend - a sentimental attachment to an object of affection that probably didn't deserve the emotion I gave it.

At today's prices, call it $975 for the M4 flattop model vs $1050 for a Colt 6920 or $900 for a Sig M400, I know I wouldn't buy the Bushmaster again.


This pretty much mirrors my experience. While mine has worked fine (full disclosure:it isn't pushed hard at all, so I know it's a testament to nothing) I don't think the gun was a good value. I'm annoyed that there are simple things BM could have done to make it better, but neglected to. I still have it, but I wouldn't buy another one.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 5:13:41 PM EST
It doesn't make any sense to buy a questionable quality AR for the price you can get a Colt.... Unless you got an awesome deal you're just taking a risk for no good reason.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 5:22:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/22/2012 5:25:34 PM EST by Proconsul]
Originally Posted By 65k10:

This pretty much mirrors my experience. While mine has worked fine (full disclosure:it isn't pushed hard at all, so I know it's a testament to nothing) I don't think the gun was a good value. I'm annoyed that there are simple things BM could have done to make it better, but neglected to. I still have it, but I wouldn't buy another one.


Yeah, I would still make the trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday (I got a basically new SCAR for the bushy with upgrades and a similarly equipped Stag 2T, no cash), but I'd be lying if I said I don't sometimes wish I could have kept the Bushy even with all of its faults. It wasn't that it was a bad gun, just that it wasn't a good buy for what I paid for it.

I actually considered buying it back when the new owner put it on the market. With the free float Midwest rail and Magpul MOE grip and stock I put on it (cost me another $275 on top of the rifle), I would have paid him $800 for it and considered it fair, call it $600 for the rifle and $200 for the upgrades.

In the end the rational side of me says I am better off that someone else was willing to pay more than that.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 5:52:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/22/2012 6:59:10 PM EST by Patriot556]
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By Patriot556:
Originally Posted By EOD55:
There is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon. I have carried a colt M4 with high end optics, I've witnessed The almighty colt FAIL horribly thankfully it was training. I had about 260 M68 aim points under my care of which about 5 didn't work out of the box and another 2 "broke" within a month. So all of the people who bank on "milspec" guns and gear have obviously never been in the military. Lots of us who are banking on Mil-spec+ guns ARE in or have been in the military.

Mil spec just means the cheapest thing mass produced that will get the job done 70% of the time. Milspec is the specification laid out by the military. It can be better but can't be worse. It's the absolute lowest level of specification the military will allow. If it's not great, how does picking a weapon built to MUCH lower specifications any good. Your logic should push people towards MORE EXPENSIVE rifles.

Another thing is you do not have to spend more than $800-$900 on a reliable weapon. As long as you have a good barrel bolt and trigger the rest can be made by any of the manufacturers out there, many are made at the same places. With that and good quality springs for your ejector and extractor you will have a great rifle. What you failed (or ignored) to realize that all things being equal is that those features (ie: good quality bolt, bbl, trigger, springs) ARE what separate brands like BM, RRA, and DPMS from brands like BCM, Colt, and DD. Given a 6920 configuration from any of those brands some will be better and some will be worse. Lower grade materials, oversized gas port sizes, improperly reamed chambers characterized some of those brands but not others. Your statement basically reads:
You don't need to pay $800-900 on a reliable weaon. As long as you have all the features characterizing colt/BCM/DD but not DPMS/BM/RRA you'll have a reliable rifle.


Spend less on NAME and more on training and ammo. Whom ever disagrees more than likely has been out shot by a guy like me at the range You obviously have sooooo much to teach me. Where can I sign up for your fighting rifle classes? How many types of rifles have you run into the ground to find out their stopping point?, with a weapon system less than half the cost of theirs and the same end result. I'm sorry if anyone is offended, I don't care. I'm tired of the AR market being flooded with "high end" rifles that are over priced and manufactured along side DPMS, bushmaster and countless other "cheap" rifles. I wish the guys who have more money than sense and experience would stop giving bad advice.
What about guys who have less money and more experience? Can we give advice? I could have twice as many guns for what I spent on my DD and BCM had I bought BM and DPMS. You act like only rich under experienced idiots buy nice guns. I'll cede that you may "out shoot" me when benched. Frankly I'm not a great shooter. But, I have a metric crap-ton of experience watching ARs being abused and I know what rifles need to run well.


This....

Now back to our regular schedule programming.


Since you brought this back up...



Like Reagan said to Carter "there you go again". Sorry dude...you're not going to convince me. I own several Colt and RRA's. The internet is bastion of sword fighters trying to see who's is bigger.

You can throw commercial grade, hobby gun, Tier 2, 3, 4 or 5 all you want. Additionally, I don't place much creditability on opinions from "the" experts who are pimping their own product or paid to push someone else's by slamming down another manufacturer. Certainly, there are a few makes out there that are universally known to keep one's dollar from.

With that said, I would grab any of my RRA's to defend my family from harm. The commercial grade tube (which none of mine have btw) is not going to interfere with rounds going down range hitting the bad guy...real or imaginary.
Many of my RRA's have thousands of rounds from cheap sheot to match grade with out a hiccup. One of my RRA middies has approximately 7,000 rounds down the stainless barrel - not a single component failure.... imagine that.

Now I don't have a dog in the Bushmaster fight and I would not disparage someone who owns or was considering to purchase a Bushie. Also, I believe it foolish to categorize brands of AR's that are only for the purpose of shooting at paper. There is not a single person on this board that would volunteer to be a backstop (stationary or moving) for someone using a non-Colt, LMT, DD, Noveske, BCM, AR pattern rifle. Why? Simply you can not tell a damn bit of difference between a Colt or Bushmaster when on the receiving end.

Absolutely agree with the current pricing from the likes of Colt, PSA, Spikes, and DD it makes a whole heck of a lot of sense to consider their rifles over some of the other manufactures when comparing certain specs.

EOD55's statement about "there is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon" happens to be a message lost on many who worry about the roll mark. SGT York and Carlos Hathcock come to mind, although there are many others.

Again, back to our regular schedule programming.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 7:41:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By Proconsul:
Originally Posted By 65k10:

This pretty much mirrors my experience. While mine has worked fine (full disclosure:it isn't pushed hard at all, so I know it's a testament to nothing) I don't think the gun was a good value. I'm annoyed that there are simple things BM could have done to make it better, but neglected to. I still have it, but I wouldn't buy another one.


Yeah, I would still make the trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday (I got a basically new SCAR for the bushy with upgrades and a similarly equipped Stag 2T, no cash), but I'd be lying if I said I don't sometimes wish I could have kept the Bushy even with all of its faults. It wasn't that it was a bad gun, just that it wasn't a good buy for what I paid for it.

I actually considered buying it back when the new owner put it on the market. With the free float Midwest rail and Magpul MOE grip and stock I put on it (cost me another $275 on top of the rifle), I would have paid him $800 for it and considered it fair, call it $600 for the rifle and $200 for the upgrades.

In the end the rational side of me says I am better off that someone else was willing to pay more than that.


I still have mine mainly because I figured it wouldn't sell well and because for quite a while there wasn't many other options for a dissipator set-up. I was lucky enough to get the Spike's tactical version which I think is better thought out. For now the bushy just gets to live in pickups and tractors and generally beat around.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 10:04:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By Elitesports:
I have a friend looking at a bushmaster at a gun shop. I have heard people say the older Bushmasters were great AR's but the newer ones are not so great. Why would you not buy a bushmaster now? What's wrong with bushmaster now if anything at all?


The only Bushmaster I would stay completely away from is the Carbon-15.

I am sure the new Bushmasters are good, just IMO they are overpriced for what they are.

How many of the following does the Bushmaster have:

158 steel bolt - ?
Chrome lined, 11595E barrel steel - ?
Chrome lined bore and chamber - ?
Properly staked gas key - ?
HPT/MPI testing done on bolt or barrel, batch/individual - ?
M4 feed ramps - ?
Black Extractor Insert - ?
M16 bolt carrier - ?
.Mil spec receiver extension - ?

I believe that BM only has a few of those, why IMO it's worth the few hundred to get one that has all of them.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 10:13:39 PM EST
I was going to buy a bushy originally but realized I could build a better rifle for less money so I went that route.
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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 10:28:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By M4Tank:
Originally Posted By Elitesports:
I have a friend looking at a bushmaster at a gun shop. I have heard people say the older Bushmasters were great AR's but the newer ones are not so great. Why would you not buy a bushmaster now? What's wrong with bushmaster now if anything at all?


The only Bushmaster I would stay completely away from is the Carbon-15.

I am sure the new Bushmasters are good, just IMO they are overpriced for what they are.

How many of the following does the Bushmaster have:

158 steel bolt - ?
Chrome lined, 11595E barrel steel - ?
Chrome lined bore and chamber - ?
Properly staked gas key - ?
HPT/MPI testing done on bolt or barrel, batch/individual - ?
M4 feed ramps - ?
Black Extractor Insert - ?
M16 bolt carrier - ?
.Mil spec receiver extension - ?

I believe that BM only has a few of those, why IMO it's worth the few hundred to get one that has all of them.


I own a Carbon 15. Only reason I got it was because a friend of mine was in need of quick cash and said it was mine for $400 if I wanted it. Bought it , put a slidefire stock on it , run the hell out of it everytime I go to the gun club. 1 year and 3,500 rounds of bumpfire abuse later and NO CLEANING and it still dumps a full 30 round mag with no problems. I run it till the rifle is smoking hot and keep feeding it. I am basically trying to break it , and it won't break. Maybe if I slam it into a metal post a few times I will accomplish my goal. I don't understand the Carbon 15 / polymer rifle hate. Mine hasn't failed me yet. Would I want it as my go to rifle? No. Would I pay $750 retail for it? No. But it is what it is , a cheap rifle that is a decent starter rifle for someone that wants to plink at the range. I'm going to the gun club today for Black Rifle Friday , I'll let you know if the piece of crap finally breaks.

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Link Posted: 11/22/2012 10:45:06 PM EST
I don't know who will win, but regardless of who does, I will say the same thing: FBHO!-EdSr.
Tier 1...Tier 2 whatever it takes.
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Link Posted: 11/23/2012 12:36:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/23/2012 12:45:19 AM EST by Patriot556]
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Patriot556:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By Patriot556:
Originally Posted By EOD55:
There is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon. I have carried a colt M4 with high end optics, I've witnessed The almighty colt FAIL horribly thankfully it was training. I had about 260 M68 aim points under my care of which about 5 didn't work out of the box and another 2 "broke" within a month. So all of the people who bank on "milspec" guns and gear have obviously never been in the military. Lots of us who are banking on Mil-spec+ guns ARE in or have been in the military.

Mil spec just means the cheapest thing mass produced that will get the job done 70% of the time. Milspec is the specification laid out by the military. It can be better but can't be worse. It's the absolute lowest level of specification the military will allow. If it's not great, how does picking a weapon built to MUCH lower specifications any good. Your logic should push people towards MORE EXPENSIVE rifles.

Another thing is you do not have to spend more than $800-$900 on a reliable weapon. As long as you have a good barrel bolt and trigger the rest can be made by any of the manufacturers out there, many are made at the same places. With that and good quality springs for your ejector and extractor you will have a great rifle. What you failed (or ignored) to realize that all things being equal is that those features (ie: good quality bolt, bbl, trigger, springs) ARE what separate brands like BM, RRA, and DPMS from brands like BCM, Colt, and DD. Given a 6920 configuration from any of those brands some will be better and some will be worse. Lower grade materials, oversized gas port sizes, improperly reamed chambers characterized some of those brands but not others. Your statement basically reads:
You don't need to pay $800-900 on a reliable weaon. As long as you have all the features characterizing colt/BCM/DD but not DPMS/BM/RRA you'll have a reliable rifle.


Spend less on NAME and more on training and ammo. Whom ever disagrees more than likely has been out shot by a guy like me at the range You obviously have sooooo much to teach me. Where can I sign up for your fighting rifle classes? How many types of rifles have you run into the ground to find out their stopping point?, with a weapon system less than half the cost of theirs and the same end result. I'm sorry if anyone is offended, I don't care. I'm tired of the AR market being flooded with "high end" rifles that are over priced and manufactured along side DPMS, bushmaster and countless other "cheap" rifles. I wish the guys who have more money than sense and experience would stop giving bad advice.
What about guys who have less money and more experience? Can we give advice? I could have twice as many guns for what I spent on my DD and BCM had I bought BM and DPMS. You act like only rich under experienced idiots buy nice guns. I'll cede that you may "out shoot" me when benched. Frankly I'm not a great shooter. But, I have a metric crap-ton of experience watching ARs being abused and I know what rifles need to run well.


This....

Now back to our regular schedule programming.


Since you brought this back up...



Like Reagan said to Carter "there you go again". Sorry dude...you're not going to convince me. I own several Colt and RRA's. The internet is bastion of sword fighters trying to see who's is bigger.

You can throw commercial grade, hobby gun, Tier 2, 3, 4 or 5 all you want. Additionally, I don't place much creditability on opinions from "the" experts who are pimping their own product or paid to push someone else's by slamming down another manufacturer. Certainly, there are a few makes out there that are universally known to keep one's dollar from.

With that said, I would grab any of my RRA's to defend my family from harm. The commercial grade tube (which none of mine have btw) is not going to interfere with rounds going down range hitting the bad guy...real or imaginary.
Many of my RRA's have thousands of rounds from cheap sheot to match grade with out a hiccup. One of my RRA middies has approximately 7,000 rounds down the stainless barrel - not a single component failure.... imagine that.

Now I don't have a dog in the Bushmaster fight and I would not disparage someone who owns or was considering to purchase a Bushie. Also, I believe it foolish to categorize brands of AR's that are only for the purpose of shooting at paper. There is not a single person on this board that would volunteer to be a backstop (stationary or moving) for someone using a non-Colt, LMT, DD, Noveske, BCM, AR pattern rifle. Why? Simply you can not tell a damn bit of difference between a Colt or Bushmaster when on the receiving end.

Absolutely agree with the current pricing from the likes of Colt, PSA, Spikes, and DD it makes a whole heck of a lot of sense to consider their rifles over some of the other manufactures when comparing certain specs.

EOD55's statement about "there is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon" happens to be a message lost on many who worry about the roll mark. SGT York and Carlos Hathcock come to mind, although there are many others.

Again, back to our regular schedule programming.
"You can explain to me which components on my rifle are inferior, people with experience with my rifle failing can explain why they failed, I will ignore all of that because I will not admit I did not spend my money wisely. I will ignore all data that does not jibe with how I wish things were. My attachment to my rifle is emotional, not rational, and therefore is unshakeable"


Aimless - you hit the 10 ring.

Fact is most of the commentary on this board is based on emotion. Statistically a fact, every manufacturer produces a lemon. Fact, posters to this board do provide negative commentary based on their experience with Colt, LMT, Noveske, DD, etc. Many with pictures to prove their claim.

Fact - many people are unable to afford the higher price point of LMT, Noveske, or DD.

Fact, I indicated in my earlier post other options at or near the same price point of a Bushmaster that currently possess better market appeal - of which I own three from one of those manufacturers.

As I said before...I do not disparage anyone who owns or is considering to purchase a Bushmaster....unlike many on this board. I often chuckle at remarks when people use labels like hobby gun, commercial grade, recreational, for these labels are misleading. Ask a Marine, or Army grunt if they care the enemy shooting at them was issued a AK from mother Russia or made in a back ally bazaar in Pakistan. If the damn thing functions, it does not matter what conforming or non-conforming spec was used.

Also, it does not serve a purpose to make things personal when someone chooses differently than we would... as often happens on this board. I am not here to promote Bushmaster. However, the market would had crushed Bushmaster into the ash heap of history a long time ago. The gun market is too competitive and margins too thin for a company to survive if it does not sell product, or the volume of RMA's is a significant ratio of what they produce.

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Link Posted: 11/23/2012 12:51:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/23/2012 12:52:07 AM EST by Augee]
Originally Posted By Patriot556:
Ask a Marine, or Army grunt if they care if the enemy shooting at them was issued a AK from mother Russia or made in a back ally bazaar in Pakistan. If the damn thing functions, it does not matter what conforming or non-conforming spec was used.


Ask any one that knows a damn thing about weapons - and they'd say they'd much rather have their enemy carry a back alley Paki-special than a well built Russian AKM.

I am convinced the number one reason for the legend of the AK's reliability is you only ever notice them when they're working. Everything seems reliable when it's actively shooting at you. I've seen a lot of AKs of various makes and models go down, more than I have seen M16s or M4s. Crappy copies and poorly maintained weapons will shit the bed regardless of design - and it's my sincerest hope than any and all of my enemies in the future will have similar weapons, and not well maintained, in spec, quality produced firearms.

~Augee
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Link Posted: 11/23/2012 4:39:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/23/2012 4:55:35 AM EST by Proconsul]
Originally Posted By Patriot556:

Also, it does not serve a purpose to make things personal when someone chooses differently than we would... as often happens on this board. I am not here to promote Bushmaster. However, the market would had crushed Bushmaster into the ash heap of history a long time ago. The gun market is too competitive and margins too thin for a company to survive if it does not sell product, or the volume of RMA's is a significant ratio of what they produce.



I gave up trying to prosthelytize about AR brands after I realized that I wasn't going to overcome the emotional attachment a person had with his chosen rollmark. It's better this way, really. I'd rather he just buy an AR and add one more black rifle owner to the population than waste too much time trying to explain how my odyssey led me to believe what I do.

As for Bushmaster, the fact that they have not been consigned to the scrap heap of history is a testament to the fact that they truly understand their market. They know that when their target market will not fire nearly enough rounds, on average, to discern the difference between a mediocre part and a good one, that they are better off skimping on the quality and deploying the dollars for marketing, and distribution heft instead. They understand that when the quality of parts is hard to understand, the casual buyer will take cues from visual similarity ("it looks and feels just like the real thing!"). A prospective customer in a store can judge fit and finish - it is more difficult for him to judge relative qualitty of visually similar materials.

It doesn't take a sophisticated statistical analysis to conclude that people who own Bushmasters are more likely to add a UTG rail or NCStar scope to it than the average Colt owner. Just browse your local gun board or ARMSLIST. Or even these forums. And that makes total sense. You save a lot of money, get a visually similar product that is likely to perform acceptably under the conditions that that user is going to subject the platform to.

In some ways, it's like the ultra cheapo toilet paper they sell at Walmart. It looks a lot like better toilet paper, but is noticeably less expensive. If you only have to use it occasionally, it's not that much different from the better stuff. It still wipes your ass. If it tends to fail somewhat more often than a better brand, well, you compensate and deal with it. Like LE agencies that dictate which rifle to use, you'll use what you are given if you need to use the restroom at the gas station. But chances are, if you are buying for yourself to use all the time, and you happen to go to the bathroom a lot, you'll probably prefer to pay 10% more for Downey ultrasoft, so you don't hurt your ass and get shit on your hands regularly.
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Link Posted: 11/23/2012 4:55:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/23/2012 4:56:09 AM EST by TCBA_Joe]
Originally Posted By Proconsul:
Originally Posted By Patriot556:

Also, it does not serve a purpose to make things personal when someone chooses differently than we would... as often happens on this board. I am not here to promote Bushmaster. However, the market would had crushed Bushmaster into the ash heap of history a long time ago. The gun market is too competitive and margins too thin for a company to survive if it does not sell product, or the volume of RMA's is a significant ratio of what they produce.



I gave up trying to prosthelytize about AR brands after I realized that I wasn't going to overcome the emotional attachment a person had with his chosen rollmark. It's better this way, really. I'd rather he just buy an AR and add one more black rifle owner to the population than waste too much time trying to explain how my odyssey led me to believe what I do.

As for Bushmaster, the fact that they have not been consigned to the scrap heap of history is a testament to the fact that they truly understand their market. They know that when their target market will not fire nearly enough rounds, on average, to discern the difference between a mediocre part and a good one, that they are better off skimping on the quality and deploying the dollars for marketing, and distribution heft instead. They understand that when the quality of parts is hard to understand, the casual buyer will take cues from visual similarity ("it looks and feels just like the real thing!"). A prospective customer in a store can judge fit and finish - it is more difficult for him to judge relative qualitty of visually similar materials.

It doesn't take a sophisticated statistical analysis to conclude that people who own Bushmasters are more likely to add a UTG or NCStar scope to it than the average Colt owner. Just browse your local gun board or ARMSLIST. Or even these forums. And that makes total sense. You save a lot of money, get a visually similar product that is likely to perform similarly under the conditions that that user is going to subject the platform to.

In some ways, it's like the ultra cheapo toilet paper they sell at Walmart. It looks a lot like better toilet paper, but is noticeably less expensive. If you only have to use it occasionally, it's not that much different from the better stuff. It still wipes your ass. If it tends to fail somewhat more often than a better brand, well, you compensate and deal with it. Like LE agencies that dictate which rifle to use, you'll use what you are given if you need to use the restroom at the gas station. But chances are, if you are buying for yourself to use all the time, and you happen to go to the bathroom a lot, you'll probably prefer to pay 10% more for Downey ultrasoft, so you don't hurt your ass and get shit on your hands regularly.

Totally agree with your synopsis. Bushmaster fills their Niche VERY well.

That said, in a thread technical forum a thread entitled "why not buy a bushmaster" , it's stupid to just parot "same thing! same thing! people just like their roll marks". When the topic comes up (once again, in a tech forum) debating the technical and practical differences between AR brands is not inappropriate. Someone coming to the forum asking for technical discussion should be afforded that technical based discussion and not be inundated with non-arguements like "it doesn't matter, it's the guy behind the rifle that matters".

If someone comes to a tech forum and asks for technical input and advice in order to make a decision it's inappropriate to give them advice based on non-technical arguements. I don't care if they decide to buy a KAC or OLY so long as that decision is made with the full input and understanding of the differences between them.

"Stupid people overpaying for their rifle when a bushmaster is cheaper" is not technical in any way.
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Link Posted: 11/23/2012 6:10:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/23/2012 6:11:21 AM EST by Shaffer]

How many of the following does the Bushmaster have:

158 steel bolt - ? Carpenter 158
Chrome lined, 11595E barrel steel - ? 4150 CVM
Chrome lined bore and chamber - ? Yes
Properly staked gas key - ? every factory Bushmaster I have seen in person was and done right
HPT/MPI testing done on bolt or barrel, batch/individual - ? batch and why is that bad???? were M1/M14 bolts batch tested or individual, besides THEY ALL WILL CRACK eventually see below
M4 feed ramps - ? they have had them for a while but, NOT needed for a semi auto gun and shorter length m193
Black Extractor Insert - ? old ones did not and worked just fine
M16 bolt carrier - ? much about nothing, NOT needed for a semi auto carbine, see older civilian Colt sporters
.Mil spec receiver extension - ? has anyone broken a civilian extension?



Some of you guys would do far more service sending people to read pages 44-50

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31318209/United-States-Special-Operations-Command-Navsea-Centers-SOPMOD-Program-Overview-for-the-National-Defense-Industrial-Association-Small-Arms-Symposium-1

Right now I would not buy a new Bushmaster due to cost vs features and the fact the old company located in Maine 15 years ago was better, but then I would not buy a Colt 6920 at the moment.
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