I have a friend looking at a bushmaster at a gun shop. I have heard people say the older Bushmasters were great AR's but the newer ones are not so great. Why would you not buy a bushmaster now? What's wrong with bushmaster now if anything at all?

They're owned by Freedom Group now.  I don't have first hand experience with current Bushmasters but I have seen the QC decline in the Remington guns I've purchased since they were taken over by the same company.   I wouldn't buy one due to that alone; especially when there are so many good ARs out there in that price range.

This ought to be good.

I have never understood the hatred, nor the gun snob view of the weapon.

I have one in .308, and have shot many others.  I have yet to see an issue, or meet any of these people with the failures that are posted on the web.

I own many weapons, and have spent a ton on them.  Cost and availability for me is not the issue.  I do love my Colts, but I am not going to throw Bushmaster under the bus.

Tell him to snag it if the deal is right.

Lower end materials, lessened QC, as well as commercial spec parts.

They're also expensive for what you get. ~$950 for a bushmaster, but a similarly configured colt, BCM, or DD can be found <$1100. Even the Sig M400s, which have been getting good reviews, are around $950 with better specs than the Bushmasters. If you need cheap the S&W M&P15 Sport is typically sub $700 but gets good recommendations from guys like Pat Rodgers for being capable cheap rifles.

It's no secret around here I have no love for low end rifles. They don't offer enough of a price difference to justify their cut corners. I'll hesitantly admit that if one wants to go punch paper every once in a while it'll be fine. However, even though most people won't be carrying them into combat, ask people why they're buying an AR. The answers will typically be "just in case", "for the zombies/Chinese/communists/race-riots", home defense, or any number of situations where they feel they may need to use their rifle to defend their life. If that is why they are choosing to arm themselves, I can't understand the desire to cheap out for proven losers.

Everyone here always bashes them, and I really don't get it.

They own a huge share of the market, yet I don't remember the last time I saw someone post about an issue they were having with one.

Meanwhile, the two brands you see recommended here the most, rarely have more than a couple days between threads where people are having issues with quality.

I have never owned a Bushy, but every one I have fired has seemed solid.

Sam

Try Windham Weaponry, it's the same factory as pre-Remington Bushmaster.

Do some searching of my posts in the archives. I've had extensive experience with bushmasters. Also, do some reading from course AARs from places like EAG tactical. Talk to some high end trainers or read what they have to say. They've ALL seen major issues with brands like BM, DPMS, RRA, etc...

I bought one on Saturday.

Only 60 rounds down range so far with it, but went bang all 60 times.

Fit and finish is very nice.

I have no regrets buying it.

Simple because a certain parts vender and his groupies use to trash talk them.

Made others feel good about spending a lot more money.


But right now if I were looking for a new AR I'd be looking at a Troy Defense 5.56 Carbine.

Because there have been higher reported cases of bad quality control, and poor parts in general. This isn't saying that everyone's bushmaster sucks, because the majority of them are still fine rifles. But as was mentioned, for the price they ask, there are manufactures' that offer all the same perks without all the reported problems in recent years. Windham Weaponry is the original Bushmaster. The owner, after selling the Bushmaster name, basically started a new company after Bushmaster started getting a worse reputation under the new management.

Came here to post this. I have a Bushmaster and it runs like a champ but it's from before the split. Id go with the Windham Weaponry. They seem to have pretty positive CS and are active on these forums as well.

I agree with TCBA_Joe. They're not bad guns per se, they're just not worth almost a Colt or BCM. It would be like if a KIA were 3,000 less than a Lexus. Everyone would say to spend the little extra for the Lexus. Both of them will run, sure. But when you start to put serious mileage on them, the Lexus begins to shine.

The Chart.    

If that matters to you... it gives a good baseline and discussion of various materials and standards.  Whether all of those have the same value or need for your needs is up to you.

I value having FUN which to me (as a backyard dirt-shooter, hobbyist, plinker) means no annoying stoppages which comes via reliability which comes from certain standards provided by certain makers.  These factors also make an AR worthy of HD or SHTF, so it's a win-win, IMHO.  YMMV.  

Just way, and I mean way better options out there, that are comparably priced, with much better quality.  PSA, Windham, S&W, just to name a few that come to mind.  L2

My understanding is they are using Bushmasters old tooling. They haven't kept up with the market in terms of specs. Their prices however are the same or more than rifles with the proper specs. Sure they will probably work fine for the most part but why pay more for less from a company that is too lazy to keep current? I don't own one of the new ones so I can't say how bad performance has been or if it has been at all to be honest but the other facts will keep me from finding out.

In comparison Windham Weaponary has reopened the old facility and are equipped with up to date tooling and made efforts at offering a rifle that is much closer to market standards and for less money. Plus using much of the same workers that gave a shit. Part of the dislike of the current Bushmaster might stem from them screwing the employees at the old facility. People have long memories and with all the good options currently available there is simply no reason to pay equal or more for something that is falling short right out of the box.

All this in addition to them screwing the pooch on bringing the ACR to the masses left a bad taste in people's mouths.

My point was that you do not have to go digging through the archives to find problems with PSA or Colt, just hit the next page button and start counting.

I don't doubt that high end trainers have had problems with Bushmasters. But if those same high end trainers are using the same PSA and Colt rifles as the owners in this forum, they ought to have plenty to say about them too.

Then again, they may have the same double standards that exist here.

Sam

I personally wouldn't have any issue with Bushmaster if they were priced as what they are-a mid tier AR.  However, they are priced as tier 1 without the features.

Bushmasters run fine for a lot of people and their uses.
They're not horrible, but they're also not great.
The biggest knock is that they tend to be over-gassed.

I guess I haven't kept up with who owns who. My 1998 Bushmaster experience is probably irrelevant now, but it functioned nearly identically to the RRA except it (Bush) choked every time I tried Wolf.

Well....for me, Shrubmaster left a bad taste in my mouth when I bought my first one in 1991. Brand new, out of the box with all sorts of reliability problems. Double feeds, failures to feed, failures to eject (stovepipes) and even slam fires on more than one occasion. I tried running it wet, dry, new BCG, new and different mags with no luck. I sold it and used part of the money for an HK91 and also got into the AK platform. I kind of swore off and cursed AR15s until 2007 so I'm back on the AR platform because of newer reputable AR makers. If I knew back then what I knew now, it would have probably been fixed.

I have heard horror stories of the new bushmaster QC.



If you want a Bushmaster, buy a Windham instead. They are essentially the "old" bushmaster.


 

I think just about everything Freedom group buys takes a huge nose dive in quality once taken over. Freedom Group seems to want quantity over quality. Marlin, Remington, Bushmaster, DPMS, are all great examples of this, once bought out quality went down hill. Bushmaster like other makers you always pay for that name, something like Colt the name still means quality, now with Bushmaster you are paying for the name with out the quality standing behind it. There are just better options out there currently for the same or less money. Another one that hasn't been mentioned is Palmetto State Armory which makes a great budget AR with quality parts seen in more expensive rifles. The downside is there ship times are slow, so just be aware of that.

Did I miss something as I can't figure out if you think windham ar's are o.k. or not.

And,

As far as colt, are their rifles the exception to the rule in as far as the idea that union made products today are not that great?

Seems like many here turn a blind eye to the fact that colt has uaw workers building those rifles.

I bought a new Bushmaster a couple months ago... A2 20" barrel model... All i run in it is Herters steel case .223 and it runs great... Fit and finish are better than my Colt... If the price is right for him, I say buy it.

New to the group,how do you know if you have an old bushmaster or new?

So what you're saying is you've barely functioned tested it and it works? And? That's essentially the same as not owning/firing one.



I think it's pretty clear he doesn't like Windham. The same factory and workers that built sub par bushmaster building the same thing with a different rollmark.
Windham had an opportunity to scrub their reputation and start fresh by offering in spec parts. However, they're offering exactly what they did before Freedom group shut it down.

As for those mentioning the failings of PSA... I totally agree. I own a PSA lower due to the price but i can't find myself ever buying them due to their spotty QC. Same issue that plagued bushmaster. They did fairly well, however once they started speeding up production to meet demand, quality took a hit.

I don't think your argument holds up when i have no idea who you're talking about but hold that same view based on experience.

The money argument doesn't  hold up when you can spend considerably less and get an equal or better rifle (M&P sport), spend the same and get a better rifle (M400), or spend slightly more and get a MUCH better quality rifle (Colt, BCM, DD).

No one is saying you need to go out and buy a high end Noveske or Knights. But in the way of 16" carbine length 5.56 ARs... there are better values out there.

I have no first hand knowledge of the old bushmasters and the new bushmasters.

I do know that mechanical devices, regardless of age or who made them are susceptible to failure.

I am no expert on the ar15 platform.

I have looked at enough of them to state that of all the rifles I have seen in the 700-1200, all pretty much look the same as far as fit and finish.

That statement is SOLELY personal opinion. Period.

I think what a lot of people miss is the old (ban/pre-ban era) BM was considered good because it was one of only a handful of options. During that time there were Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS, Rock River, KAC, and Olympic Arms. It's pretty easy to be "the best" when Colts and KAC were difficult to find and everything else was at best on the same level of quality and there were 3 configurations.

However, in the last 9 years there are now almost 150 different companies, and THOUSANDS of options out there. Including companies that didn't exist that have upped expectations for value. BCM, DD, Noveske, LWRC, Sig, S&W, etc... IN ADDITION to impossible to find companies like Colt and KAC being available at practically every gunstore.

I have multiple Bushmaster products ranging from complete rifles to just barrels assemblies and I have not had any problems with them.  The last barrel assembly I bought from them was back in '09.  I have not had any experence with new products from them since then, other than seeing one that my local Wal-Mart has on display and it looks great.

You're right. "better is subjective"

How does "tighter QC measures, more money and time in R&D, higher quality materials, a proven track record of performance"? Is that more objective?

You know, I am wondering if you, with all your years of extensive experience with the ar platform and bushmaster/windham, have you directly confronted windham in the forum they have on this site about their quality issues?

I bought one a couple of weeks ago.

Ran around 400 rounds through her.

Shoots good and 100% satisfied with my purchase.

However, I wanted more of a niche rifle, and it was cheaper to buy the offering from bushmaster than it would of been to build it up from parts.

That said, if I were getting a flat top rifle, for the price of a Bushmaster patrol rifle, I would go with PSA, Colt (for $100 more), or BCM.

If you are in the market for an A1 Izzy / 723 clone, can't beat the Bushmaster for the money, it handles and shoots very nicely.

Model # 90140
XM4A1
14.5 1/9 twist + YHM phantom FH
C7 upper

All I did was add a Daniel Defense Bolt, CAR stock, and A1 pistol grip

I have a sig M400. It is a great rifle. 800 rounds through it. its more accurate than me, ambi controls, swivel connector built into the lower, chrome bore and barrel, m4 feed ramps. Its a steal at 950.00

Bushmaster, The reason Accuwedge was invented.

I'm 100% sure they're aware of their issues. However with their business model they still sell them hand over fist. Good for them.

You see more posts about PSA and Colt because I'd bet that there are a lot more people buying PSA and Colt rifles on here than Bushy rifles. So, it's a numbers thing.










 

As if colt was any different. colt having had contracts for many years, I wonder how many shortcuts have been made when a "performance award" was on the line.

Tell you what, how about you share all the specific quality issues with the bushmasters, the failures, what caused the failures, what was done to fix the failures, and how bushmaster has handled those failures.

How about sharing your experience with this new name and how you know, as based on your massive experience and expertise how this new company is no different than what they were originally.

I'll share everything about my rifle as I own it. Any failures and how they are resolved.

No Aimless that's the argument of someone who took carbine classes before they were cool. Before this was a forum, remember the email list, and when 5.56 surplus m193 was cheap @ $130 per 1k.

The salient point that you are missing that I suspect Joe is too polite to point out is that he works professionally in the industry and sees a lot of rifles come through and get tested as well as having end-user experience as well.

He's not talking about individual warranty claims on the rifle he bought at a gun show last weekend.  

~Augee

Look, I have no real beef with Colt or PSA, I'm sure they'll get it together. But I am going to revert back to what I said earlier in the thread -

Look over the next several pages of the AR Discussion threads. Colt and PSA are the headline of almost all of the problem posts. Everything from bolt lugs getting sheared off, to gas keys not being staked AT ALL, to anodizing flaking off right out of the box, to air pockets in the bolt face, to cracked uppers, to castle nuts not even being threaded, to uppers being 1/4 inch to wide. And those are just the recent ones I remember off the top of my head.

Meanwhile, show me one recent thread about Bushmaster quality control or issues? ... Anyone...?

Yet, every time someone comes here and asks about rifles, the forum inevitably swarms and tells them to buy one of the two brands that are clearly having serious quality control issues at the moment. And tells them to steer away from companies like Bushmaster, who if the lack of help threads is any indication, is putting out solid rifles at the moment.

If right now my life was in danger and I had three unopened rifle boxes in front of me - one being Colt, one being PSA, and the third Bushmaster which one would I choose? The one that had some problems several years ago and pissed off the AR community? Or the ones that appear in the help threads daily? My choice is the Bushy, hands down. Fuck history and mil-spec, my life is in danger now.

Fortunately, I don't have to make that decision. All of my AR rifles are franken guns, are totally mil-spec and reliable. But I have the ability to build or fix a rifle on my own, unlike most of the first time posters who come here for help.

I understand that the Bushy isn't totally mil-spec, but for the guys that come here and ask about a first AR does that really matter? When I someday buy my son his first car, I am not going to base the decision on whether or not all the components meet some spec chart. What does that matter if it was assembled poorly, or those high quality components are in jeopardy if they go through QC on a Monday of Friday? No thanks. He'll get the car that is reliable now, not the one with some rich history.

I think Bushmasters (as of today 11/20/12), while not perfect, are good to go. That is not to say that tomorrow they won't start having issues. And on the flip side, I think we can safely say that, for the time being at least, it is a good time to avoid Colt and PSA.

It is time to start being honest here. It sucks to tell people not to buy a brand that you own and are proud of. But it really sucks for the guy who goes out and buys the same gun you did, and gets a lesser product.

Sam

There is only one thing that matters, the person behind the weapon. I have carried a colt M4 with high end optics, I've witnessed The almighty colt FAIL horribly thankfully it was training. I had about 260 M68 aim points under my care of which about 5 didn't work out of the box and another 2 "broke" within a month. So all of the people who bank on "milspec" guns and gear have obviously never been in the military. Mil spec just means the cheapest thing mass produced that will get the job done 70% of the time. Another thing is you do not have to spend more than $800-$900 on a reliable weapon. As long as you have a good barrel bolt and trigger the rest can be made by any of the manufacturers out there, many are made at the same places. With that and good quality springs for your ejector and extractor you will have a great rifle. Spend less on NAME and more on training and ammo. Whom ever disagrees more than likely has been out shot by a guy like me at the range, with a weapon system less than half the cost of theirs and the same end result.  I'm sorry if anyone is offended, I don't care. I'm tired of the AR market being flooded with "high end" rifles that are over priced and manufactured along side DPMS, bushmaster and countless other "cheap" rifles. I wish the guys who have more money than sense and experience would stop giving bad advice.

You just spewed a lot of garbage.

You should have just stuck with the overall theme that good training is a critical element.  The guy who has a DPMS and actually gets out and shoots it is much better off than they guy who owns a KAC that sits in the safe.  That's good advice.  

The rest of what you spouted off on is bunk.

The threads winner.


And the most important part emphasized.