Because I hate the company. Try ordering parts from them.

Be that as it may, it's still TRUE

Whatever......

The NDIA SOPMOD Overview is one of the most compelling arguments to have an individually tested bolt that follows proper testing procedures.  

If good, quality, tested bolts are breaking under SOF training stresses, what makes you think that a lesser bolt will fare any better?  

Individual testing ensures that there are not already microscopic cracks or flaws that will cause catastrophic failure of the bolt.  While it cannot be stopped from happening, it will take longer for a microscopic crack to become a visible one if there were none to begin with.  One with a microscopic crack that was not detected at the point of production will show a visible crack almost immediately and catastrophic failure very quickly when used heavily.

Granted and conceded - most AR owners will never use their rifles enough to have this occur, and will never notice the difference between a tested and untested bolt.  

This presentation shows what happens to a heavily used SOF rifle's bolt that's been properly and individually tested, running a full weight bolt carrier in a properly ported rifle with an H2 buffer.  

Bushmasters and many other commercial manufacturers still use untested bolts, semi-auto carriers (less weight to delay unlocking time - i.e. increasing stress on the bolt lugs and cam pin hole), are overgassed with enlarged gas ports to run the cheap, underpowered .223 ammunition (again, increased stress on the bolt), and are shipped with a carbine weight buffer (see full weight carrier).  

Very few rifles will experience the kinds of stresses that a US SOF Colt M4A1 Carbine will.  However, a quality built weapon will fare much better than one that cuts corners on even the bare minimum will require for military weapons.  Does anyone need that much quality?  Perhaps not - however, it's pointless to try and carry on that lesser quality is as good, or even better than a MIL-SPEC and MIL-STD compliant weapon.  As is completely dismissing the TDP of a company that has producing military weapons for over a half century to not just US forces, but for the best of our allies' elite as well.  

However - here's a compelling argument:

Ammunition is not cheap - whether you re-load or buy factory, if you are using your weapon enough to need to worry abou the quality of the components, you are regularly exceeding the initial cost and investment in the weapon in ammunition budget, at least yearly, if not more often.

If you are so budget minded that the extra $200 for higher quality components is that much of an imposition - probably you cannot afford enough ammunition to need the higher quality components.  There's nothing wrong with that, and there's no snobbery involved in that statement.  

It's just a simple fact - some people have more money than others to buy ammunition.  And some people, regardless of budget, shoot way more.  The M4A1s in the SOPMOD Overview are going through 4-6,000 rounds in a couple of months, some civilians will never shoot that much in their lifetimes, much less according to those firing schedules. Lower quality components may very well be a better use of their money in that case.  They're still lower quality components.  

~Augee

This is the quote of the month. Gave me a chuckle.  I like it a lot better than the usual Yugo/Ferrari.


ETA: Wall of text warning. Back to the old BM vs new BM.  Realistically and objectively there probably isn't any difference between the old and new. They seem to be building basically to the same spec as before. Some things might have even improved a hair. As Aimless pointed out, LPKs could leave a lot to be desired sometimes. Back then you got a baggie of parts with a bread tie around it. I still have a couple of the brand new never opened kits. lol!

My experience with old BM isn't very valid because all but one of all the BMs I had back then were simply built from the ground up by me in my basement shop. Had all the time in the world to make sure everything was straight and proper. I never got to experience the ton of canted sights they sent out. I did pick up a few like new canted sight BMs for dirt cheap from guys that didn't have the desire to fix them. All the ones I picked up just needed the barrel nut loosened and retorqued with the sight straight. Stuff that old BM should have caught.  I don't recall seeing a lot of posts in recent years about canted sights from BM so in that regard maybe new is better than old.

So looking at things objectively I think any perception that old is better than new largely stems from emotions surrounding the change of hands at BM. Who really knows what really happened. All we got is this repeated tale of Big Corp vs the little guys. In reality the guys at new BM are simply people trying to feed their families just like the rest of us. They don't give a shit about CEOs and faceless corporations. They need a paycheck just like the guys in Maine.

All that stuff aside, fast forward to the present. Again being objective. No matter how you cut it, Bushmaster is pretty much offering the same rifle although there are a lot more options available. But you get the same old untested AR15 BCG, commercial receiver extension, A2 sights.

Like many here I'm someone that likes to build his own or buy an assembled upper. Even if I was buying a complete rifle, BM isn't even close to being on the radar. $200 for a stripped lower? Comparing them to what is available on the market now, well there really just isn't a comparison. With very little effort a better rifle can be had for less. For just a hair more you can get one of the workhorse rifles with  a respected name and all the correct parts and specs. Yeah they seem like minor differences but they are important to a lot of people.

Members here vary greatly from couple times a year shooters to guys involved in competition or carbine course participants to hunters or those with HD concerns to law enforcement and military. A large percentage fall in the first category and that is fine. Military are not going to have an option in what they use. Those other than LE and Mil are likely going to only ever have to point their rifle at anything more dangerous than paper or steel for their entire lives unless something really wrong takes place.  No matter which I think a large percentage of us want the best product for our money.

This isn't a slam on anyone that has a BM. I still have a few and like them a lot. I've changed the BCGs to FA and changed to mil spec receiver extensions on rifles that were working just fine before. Those improvements were cheap so I did it.

No matter what you have though this is a site that revolves around the AR15 no matter what brand. We all enjoy the same things about the rifle. No matter what you own makes you no better or worse than the next guy. Just enjoy shooting them while we can. Remember, the world is going to end in less than a month anyway. Lol!

Dude, aimless, I love you*



*no homo

I've owned and examined a lot of ARs and most of them are ok, but many showed some obvious poor quality, Colt, S&W included.  Most manufacturers are just assemblers, I don't care what you think.  There can only be so many makers of barrels, forgings, springs and other stuff.  While some brands make more stuff in house, they still buy parts on the open market.  Qaulity control vs. cost is always a subject of manufacturers of EVERYTHING.  Why do you think Colt made a bunch of rifles with oversize pins?  Simple.  They f––ked up and wouldn't swallow the cost of scrapping a bunch of lower receivers.  True, there is a small number of any product that fails.  It happens with anything.  You can get a Mercedes Benz lemon too.  One of the dumbest things I've read on this and other AR forums is that a person has shot his rifle 20-30K rounds of ammunition and would depend on it to defend himself.  Each time you pull the trigger is one more cycle to failure, and a rifle with 20K rounds through it is ready for the junkpile.  My not so humble opinion.

You don't seen oversize pins any more, so no more f––ked ?

If this thread was titled :"Reasons to buy a Bushmaster" it would be crickets....that's why you shouldn't buy one cause there aren't any good reasons to buy one.

I'm sure Colt sold large pins receivers for several years due to not  wanting to admit they messed up a batch of receivers. I'm also sure they tooled up small parts production exclusively to support a bad batch of receivers.

I think you'd be surprised at how much stuff gun companies throw away in bad parts. They don't tool up other parts to be compatible with those bad parts.

They retail in the mid 900s.  You can get a Winhdam for a couple hundred less or a Colt for about a hundred more.

I have two that run great with wolf as well.

And the reason why the gubmint awarded the contract to Colt??

Another great reason not to buy a BM: Troy Defense Carbine

Guys are finding them for under $800 NEW. Troy is one of the most respected accessory companies and knows their stuff. Troy sights, FF slick rail, battleax stock, and pistol grip. LWRC produced MELONITED barrel, properly specd parts...

They're getting great reviews here and TOS, where if it's not Colt they literally hate it. I can't see spending $900 for a bushmaster when screaming deals like this exist.
If I wasn't saving for a PVS-14 right now I'd be all over one.

You are either joking or a uninformed idiot.
EDIT;Colt has one production line for military & commercial ARs. During the years they were producing the large pin (.170) lowers, they were also producing standard pin (.154) lowers for the military. The modification was to satisfy uncle sam's desire to prevent M-16 LPKs from being installed in civilian lowers. This was also the reason for receiver blocks, and the current "web" in commercial lowers. Lowers were not produced & machined in such large quantities that it could account for the YEARS of large pin receivers, nor would they have spent the extra money to create the large LPK pins, hammers, and triggers.

Be sure of your facts before you spout nonsense here. That is how myths get created.
20K rounds will not make an AR a "junk pile", the military has re-barreled weapons and they have gone beyond 30K.
A hammer forged chrome lined barrel has an approx. 30K life. Bolts in M4s run about 10K, while rifle bolts just seem to out live the barrel.
Running a light firing schedule like most here do, 20-30K is not unreasonable for a quality weapon to run before it needs a new bolt & barrel. Some small parts will need replaced more often. Like pin & selector detents that wear, springs that wear out, and gas tubes sometimes wear one side of the "mushroom" off causing gas leaks (this can be helped a bit though).

It is at the high round counts that the quality of the parts in your weapon will really make a difference. An 8620 bolt just won't last like a C158 bolt will, and non-chrome lined barrels won't go 20K rounds without severe throat wear.
At the beginning of the weapon's life is where the testing comes into play. Knowing that you don't have a cracked bolt on day one, that the bolt & barrel have been HP tested, and that the LPK is correctly hardened to the proper depth gives some peace of mind. Plus it reduces the chances that a failure will occur due to manufacturing error.

Agree, absolutely a better option for the money.

I have a ban era M4 with a MP tested barrel. I sent it out and got a phantom flash hider put on after the ban. I hated the mini Y. Gun has between 5-6k trouble free rounds through it. I haven't shot it in over a year since I built my BCM so im gonna chop the front sight and install a 13 inch FF handguard and put a flip up front sight on it.

My bushmaster was built back in the 90's also.... Great entry level AR, but choked on wolf, especially under hard use....then again my colt did too.

Wolf ammo is notoriously underpowered. In order to get a rifle to run 100% with wolf it requires opening the gas port to a point (and using lighter BCGs and buffers) that using decent ammo makes it become over gassed. This overgassing causes premature wear on all moving parts, shortens bolt life, and increases felt recoil for the shooter; all of which are negatives. This is also why the BMs (and other brands) are inappropriate choices for duty rifles which should be running quality fighting or defensive ammunition, and why the (apparently offensive) term "hobby rifle" has come into the firearms vocabulary. Basically, rifles designed to allow shooters to fire cheap anemic ammo reliably will fail sooner when used with proper spec ammunition.

Also, this issue of over-gassing plays into materials choices. With the cheaper bbl steels it will wear the gas port at an accelerated rate compared to proper bbl steels, causing even more gas to flow through the gas system pushing it even farther. Add in cheap bolt steel you're looking at increasing forces over time on cheaper materials which are weakening at an increasing rate.

Theres a reason people have issues with running SR15s and BCM middys with steel cased ammo. It's like putting below 87 grade gas in a performance racecar. Alternately, running quality duty ammo in a bushmaster is like putting NOS tanks in my 2001 Jeep Wrangler. it would probably work but I wouldn't expect the car to last long at that rate.

Augee,
This by fa, is the best, and most informative post in this thread.  The debate on low quality verse high quality will go on forever, I will throw this one thing into the fray, and I will only name one brand, why pay Shrubmaster prices for lessser quality parts, when you can either spend the same, and get high quality parts, say like what PSA sells?  What allot of you fail to see fit and finish isnt the most important thing here, what steel is the bolt made out of? Is the carrier properly staked? What about barrel steel? MPI?  I would not even think about using a rifle for home defense or a carbine class with less than a 1000 rounds through it, and thats the low side, I would much rather see a higher round count.

I guess you aren't an engineer, metallurgist or manufacturing engineer.  For your info, Colts large pin lowers were a screw up.  I got that from a guy that works there.  Commercial and Military rifles are made on the same line for one reason only-cost.  Cost is the biggest driving factor in manufacturing.  

I call BS. The lowers were not a screw up. Whoever told you that is full of it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Could be true, odd days they punch out bunches of new parts to fit and to assemble the screwed up receivers.

Even days do the mils job.

You're very right about the under gassing. The as,e can be said with 5.45 wolf ammo. I had to have my ak105 port opened a lil more because it would not cycle at all.

The issue with my bushmaster was that I ran it hard for 2 mags, popped another mag in, chambered a round, put it on safe....walked a bit then went to fire.... The casing was totally seized up in there. I guess the coating got hot enough to bond to the chamber walls. Gun was dead the rest of the day and I needed a cleaning rod and mallet to clear it up. That was my only complaint about my BM...otherwise...decent rifle.

The coating? If you're talking about the lacquer a rifle chamber won't get hot enough to melt off the case and fuze it in place.

Steel ammo doesn't expand when fired like brass does. So when you fire steel ammo the excess residue builds up in the chamber around the case. Add in an improperly reamed chamber that is too tight for the cases to begin with and you run into problems.

When your gun froze up did the case stay in the chamber and the bolt cycle? Or did the case and bolt stay in place no cycling at all?

I'm not sure whether you're even talking about the FCG pins or the pivot pins, but the pivot pins were changed so that you could not install an M16 upper on the SP1, making conversion to an machine gun more difficult.  

The FCG pins were changed so that you could not install a milsurp select fire FCG and illegally convert to machine gun using an LL or DIAS.  

"Screwed up?"  Perhaps.  A "screw up," not really - pretty deliberate.  Many other parts also had to be changed to make this possible.  



So?  

From whom?

Or do you also accept energy policy advice from the guy who pumps gas at the BP down the street?  "He works for BP, he's a reliable source."  

~Augee

I just looked in my box where I keep my receipts and I purchased my BM on 2-17-2005, I have only shot it about 3,000 round since I bought it, so I realize that's not much. It has a 1/9 chrome lined 4150 steel 16 inch barrel. It has never malfunctioned period with anything from 45 grain winchester ballistic tip varmint ammo, 64 grain soft point hunting ammo, Monarch 55 grain steel cased , 62 grain lake city, it has always worked period. I am mostly a 1911 and Glock guy. I have only one shotgun, one .308 bolt rifle , the rest are handguns, so I'm NOT an AR15 freak, but I like to have a reliable battle rifle and I want quality. Before I bought my Bushmaster I had two Colt ar15's, one was a pre ban 16 inch Sporter and the other a post ban 20 inch HBAR. I did not know squat about AR's, all I knew was about every 25 to 50 rounds these guns would malfunction so I sold them both having no trust in either. I bought my BM then since it was the only different brand my local gun shop carried. I put 1,000 flawless rounds on it and decided to do some mods so I went with a Vltor stock and tried to put it on and it wouldn't fit, I called Vltor and they said BM had a commercial tube , not mil-spec, so I ordered the Vltor mil-spec tube and installed it. I did not care for the trigger so I bought the CMC two stage flat drop in trigger. Other mods shortly after included Arms40L BUIS, ACOG TA01NSN with LaRue mount, Sure Fire M73 handguard and Surefire M900 light, Yankee Hill no dust flash hider, H&K 30 round steel magazines. This AR has done 2,000 more flawless rounds after these mods, I went shooting a month ago with a friend who is knowledgeable about AR's and pointed out to me the weaknesses of this BM. After inspection I staked the castle nut , inspected the bolt carrier group which had a properly staked gas key already, I removed extractor which looked MIM with a blue insert spring.......So I ordered some BCM parts and I did the bolt rebuild on my existing BM bolt which gave me new gas rings,tool steel extractor, black insert, extractor spring and Crane O ring then I set that aside as my back up complete bolt carrier. I then installed my new BCM H buffer, BCM recoil spring and my BCM M16 complete bolt carrier group, the Crane O ring was not already installed by BCM so I had to remove extractor and install it. I have not shot my Bushy since adding the BCM parts , but will do so tomorrow, Monday.  These upgrades were probably not needed no more than I shoot AR's, but I like to have peace of mind if the SHTF. I like semi custom 1911's with good parts so thats why I upgraded.  If I were buying an AR today , would it be something different, YES , but since I already had this one and it works I seen no reason, It came with a Cirro Forging upper and an LAR lower, it does not have the F marked front sight, no big deal , I use an ACOG, This is my Bushmaster story.

The bolt cycled, the extractor ripped off the case rim, too. It was really stuck in there. Running wolf or any steel under plinking conditions never gave me an issue. It was when the rifles were run hard, then left for a few with one in the chamber that problems began.

Yeah. It's a chamber fouling issue created by the lack of steel expansion combined with steel cases that are known to be weak.

Frankly, I give any weapon a reliability pass when using wolf.

I bought a Bushmaster (XM-15) in June 2012 and I have shot well over 2000 rounds though it without issue... except the price. I've had jams only after using my 22 converter (200+ rounds) then changing back to the 556 bolt carrier group without cleaning the rifle.

I was considering buying another Bushmaster (MOE 308 version), but I do not want to wait a couple months to get it.

I've had several bushes I've the years, and all have ran just fine

My Bushmaster Texas carbine is tighter than the two Colt 6920s I have. In fact it's perfect. Now the staking on the bolt, another story.

What is tighter?  Upper receiver/Lower receiver or shot groups?  Which is more important, a staked gas key that will allow the weapon to cycle reliably or some play between two parts that doesn't have any effect on the weapons accuracy or reliability?

Rob

I failed at quoting someone saying accuwedge was made for Bushmasters. Just the upper/lower fit. And I dont need a lecture on gas key staking.

I don't have any experience with personally owning a Bushmaster AR, but the agency I worked for started buying ar's and issuing to all the officers about 2007.  We had bought 200 Colt 6721's, but Colt was so slow in civilian production at the time, that we started buying BM's because we could get as many as we could afford and they were about the same price as the 6721's.  We ended up buying about 700, and the problems started immediately.  Out of the box, about 20% of the 700 would not fully extract the empty case.  After a lot of testing and calls to BM (over the course of a few months), the problem was discovered.  The problem rifles had out of spec (too small) chambers that would swell just enough when they heated up a little (after a couple of rounds in some cases) that the cases would stick and not fully extract.  This was in addition to several other less important problems like canted FSB's, extractor problems, BM 20 round mags, etc.  We were shooting XM193 for training and Federal TRU for duty ammo.  BM's solution to the chamber issue was to send us a reamer and have the guys in our armory ream the chambers to spec on the problem rifles.  I pointed out to our armory that reaming the chambers would remove the chrome lining (if they ever had it to start with) and they began to petition the administration for money to buy all new rifles.  About 2010 the agency was able to come up with the money and bought 1,500 all new Colt 6920's for all sworn officers.  They sold or traded the 6721's, BM's, and a few other misc. ar's we had in inventory (RRA's, Armalite, etc).  The new 6920's were specced out to include Troy railed HG, Magpul MS2 sling and attachment, 2 30 round windowed PMAGs, and a Streamlight TLR1s.  Funny thing is the 6920 with all the accessories had a per unit cost to the agency less than the stock BM or 6721.  Of the 700 BM's about 25%, give or take a percentage point or two, had problems that had to be addressed in order to make them reliable enough to be carried on duty and possibly into battle.  The other 75% were GTG.  Of the 1,500 6920's, we have had less than a dozen that had a problem significant enough to be addressed by the armory, not necessarily reliability issues, but something we just couldn't handle in the field.  As I said 75% of our Bushmasters were good to go, but I will never personally own a BM, and thank goodness I was never issued one.

I bought my BM Texas Carbine in 2007 when prices for Colts were in the $1,500-$1,600 range. The BM was $879 from GT Dist at the time and I was not making what I do now. It is now my beater.  I'm going to replace the bolt though with a BCM.  I have made it a mission in my life to steer those to better built rifles.

I must have got lucky with my BM and fell in the 75% category.  I don't have many BM parts left on mine anymore.

I replaced the bolt and BCG on mine with a BCM one. Not that it makes it up to spec but this thread deserves a bump, just to see if the scare has changed peoples opinion

This

Back in '86 I bought a bushmaster m16 with a sendra lower and a colt 10.5 upper ran really well until the gas tube broke. the only ussue I had in many thousands of rounds in22LR and .223.Gotta love it!

Kinda funny, I have been coming to AR15.com for years and reading posts, yet have never felt compelled to create an account or post anything until now.

To the OP, I work at a LE Agency with over 100 officers.  Several years ago we were issued patrol rifles/carbines and the person in charge of the decision went cost and what he personally owned over what the better option or at least extensive T&E of several rifles.  As a result we ended up with Bushmaster patrol carbines.  That lasted less than a year before we got rid of all of them and switched to Colt LE6920.  In a year we had numerous reliabilty issues and made the switch.  Since we switched to Colt in 2007 all of our rifles have been running at 100% with each ranging from 1,000-10,000+ rounds down range (depending on the officer's length of service and how much they shoot.) The handful of malfunctions that I have been aware of with the Colts were the result of an officer running his rifle practically dry and had shot about 400 rounds that day when they started happening.  He put a little CLP on the gun and it was good to go.  The rifles at our agency get used, every officer goes through a week long 1000rd rifle class when issued the gun and at a minimum are required to shoot about 400rds a year (between mandatory quals and in-house training).  Many officers (LIKE ME ) shoot more than that because my agency provides two open range dates a month in which there is pretty much no limit on how much you can shoot.  Just thought I would offer you my experience with Bushmaster.

LOL...amen and spot on.

I like these threads cause it's always about the inferiority complex.  I've owned from Kac all the way down to sporticals and you know what, if you maintain your rifle, pay attention to how it's operating and use quality mags, you will rarely have a problem

with respects to the metals and allows, that cuts both ways.  Also, the breakpoint on some of those metals is way above even what we see in mil use.  

I've never had a problem with a bushmaster, never
I have had a problem with Noveske and colt.   Point being, it's up to you to maintain your rifle properly.  Too many people think the name means it can do it all without proper attention

only cause Walmart started to selling them en masse and as you can see, the qc isn't so great.

It cuts both ways.

post of the thread