Author
Message
Couch-Commando
Drill Instructor, Libyan Army
Offline
Posts: 21998
Feedback: 100% (2)
Posted: 3/1/2012 1:51:58 AM
As many are probably aware, I am heavily biased towards 20'' barrels. I find the 20'' rifle to be plenty short enough. With that said, the new crop of Colt 6920's that have M4 CARBINE markings has got me interested. I eventually intended to own one anyway, along with a 6933 for home defense.

However, if I got one, I'd most likely want to set it up like that new fancy M4 setup. Like the picture below, with a full length rail, ACOG of some sort, and perhaps a bipod.



The majority of my shooting is done at 500 yards. I know 20'' is better at this, but I'm curious if a free floated 6920 with acog and good ammo can shoot reasonably well at 500 yards or so.
Right around your first birthday I spent an entire Easter Sunday morning watching a hermaphrodite masturbate on a revolving stage while trying to drown my liver in a cat house in Munich.-SM3
click_bang
Offline
Posts: 173
Feedback: 100% (36)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 1:57:14 AM
It would be tough at 500 yards but I think it is possible. When I was at Camp Lejeune our instructors had us shooting Mk18 with Eotech at 300 yards.
Combat_Jack
Green Suited Salaryman
Military
Offline
Posts: 63139
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 2:10:30 AM
The M4A1 Block II with an ACOG or ELCAN is a 600m rifle on silhouettes. More limited by ammo than accuracy.
A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one! -Hamilton
Couch-Commando
Drill Instructor, Libyan Army
Offline
Posts: 21999
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 2:59:29 AM
I think the max range at local 3-gun matches is 450 yards, and I figure with ACOG and Bipod I might shoot some F-TR with such a rifle for fun. To be honest, I suck at shooting at 500 yards. I can barely hold the 8 ring due to vision issues. But I figure using a scope instead of iron sights might help too. It wouldn't be too serious. But yeah, I don't want a rifle that I can't hit a man every time with at 500 yards.
Right around your first birthday I spent an entire Easter Sunday morning watching a hermaphrodite masturbate on a revolving stage while trying to drown my liver in a cat house in Munich.-SM3
Combat_Jack
Green Suited Salaryman
Military
Offline
Posts: 63142
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 3:03:02 AM
You can shoot this farther then an iron sighted rifle.
A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one! -Hamilton
hallstar606
Offline
Posts: 472
Feedback: 100% (64)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 3:03:08 AM
Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:
I think the max range at local 3-gun matches is 450 yards, and I figure with ACOG and Bipod I might shoot some F-TR with such a rifle for fun. To be honest, I suck at shooting at 500 yards. I can barely hold the 8 ring due to vision issues. But I figure using a scope instead of iron sights might help too. It wouldn't be too serious. But yeah, I don't want a rifle that I can't hit a man every time with at 500 yards. [/quo

if your hitting man size targets at 500 yards you need to be on top shot lol
Couch-Commando
Drill Instructor, Libyan Army
Offline
Posts: 22000
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 3:33:04 AM
[Last Edit: 3/1/2012 3:35:03 AM by Couch-Commando]

Originally Posted By hallstar606:
Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:
I think the max range at local 3-gun matches is 450 yards, and I figure with ACOG and Bipod I might shoot some F-TR with such a rifle for fun. To be honest, I suck at shooting at 500 yards. I can barely hold the 8 ring due to vision issues. But I figure using a scope instead of iron sights might help too. It wouldn't be too serious. But yeah, I don't want a rifle that I can't hit a man every time with at 500 yards. [/quo

if your hitting man size targets at 500 yards you need to be on top shot lol

Well, I can shoot the average member of GD at 500. Not the average sized man. I'd guess my groups at 500 are 16'' or so at 500 (with a few fliers when the wind changes.)

I've improved my 200 yard offhand to 90%, and my sitting/prone rapids to 90%. My prone slowfire is still at about 80% though.

I don't own many firearms. Right now I own 6. I like to use the same firearms for lots of different things.

ETA: At my last three gun match, I cleared out the long range portion (200 to 350 yards) with only two or three misses. I took first place in my division on long range. Honestly the long range stuff generally interests me more than short range (hence why my AR15's are all 20'' barrels.)

But the 6920 is really cool. And dad hinted he might buy me a nice college gradation/getting accepted to grad school present.
Right around your first birthday I spent an entire Easter Sunday morning watching a hermaphrodite masturbate on a revolving stage while trying to drown my liver in a cat house in Munich.-SM3
Combat_Jack
Green Suited Salaryman
Military
Offline
Posts: 63144
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 3:50:06 AM
If you like clones of issue guns you should cut the 6920 to 10.5 and add a RIS 2, then get a second upper in 14.5" to match.
A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one! -Hamilton
bravo5two
Member
Offline
Posts: 853
Feedback: 100% (24)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:13:20 AM
I'm with you on the 20" barreled AR, not that it is more accurate than 16" but because it keeps my loads at 3000 fps +/- thus a bit less pronounced bullet drop at 350 - 500 yds. Seemed like most 3G matches now don't push target arrays out beyond the 300 yds due to time limitation to run through 19 to 21 squads in 3 days (believe it or not, never failed at every match, there would be shooters just bang away at the long range target, mag after mag until timed out)
phonejack
Offline
Posts: 144
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:44:01 AM
With the correct optic,Yes You Can. However, The bullet needs enough speed to "do something" once it gets there.(Clint Smith quote).400 yard engagements are why the military got the old M-14's out and reissued them .
On a personal note, a friend of mine son was a Marine who received an M-14 because his father taught him how to shoot a M1-A in high school. He was able to call home shortly after and told his father that "he was right, you only have to shoot them once with a M-14" .
And no, I am not condeming the AR platform, just putting real world use in perspective.
madcratebuilder
Offline
Posts: 1342
Feedback: 100% (6)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 10:04:00 AM
A longer (20") barrel is more velocity and not necessarily more accurate. The quality of the barrel and chamber has a larger effect on accuracy than barrel length.
Couch-Commando
Drill Instructor, Libyan Army
Offline
Posts: 22001
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 10:11:16 AM

Originally Posted By madcratebuilder:
A longer (20") barrel is more velocity and not necessarily more accurate. The quality of the barrel and chamber has a larger effect on accuracy than barrel length.

I understand that. I guess I'm wondering at what range the lower velocity of a 16'' becomes problematic.

I would the concepts with my roommate's ACOG equipped Bushmaster, but after the 20,000 rounds of wolf he put through it when he was a kid (and ammo was cheap) I don't think it will be an accurate comparison.

When I decide to buy a gun, I usually save up for a year to get it. I haven't bought any guns for two years now, so I figure it's time for me to set my sights on something new.
Right around your first birthday I spent an entire Easter Sunday morning watching a hermaphrodite masturbate on a revolving stage while trying to drown my liver in a cat house in Munich.-SM3
Couch-Commando
Drill Instructor, Libyan Army
Offline
Posts: 22002
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 10:16:00 AM

Originally Posted By phonejack:
With the correct optic,Yes You Can. However, The bullet needs enough speed to "do something" once it gets there.(Clint Smith quote).400 yard engagements are why the military got the old M-14's out and reissued them .
On a personal note, a friend of mine son was a Marine who received an M-14 because his father taught him how to shoot a M1-A in high school. He was able to call home shortly after and told his father that "he was right, you only have to shoot them once with a M-14" .
And no, I am not condeming the AR platform, just putting real world use in perspective.

By the time I spend enough money to get my M1 (or an M14) to become accurate, I might as well have purchased a LaRue OBR. Wood stocked guns are going to need glass bedding, a lot of sanding to ensure the barrel/op rod aren't rubbing, some structural modifications to ensure the gas block and op rod don't rub, etc. Plus accurrized M14 type rifles tend to be far more fragile than their AR15 analogs as far as maintaining that accuracy.

I seriously doubt I'd be shooting anything "in real life" beyond 200. I just like to shoot stuff at long distances for fun.
Right around your first birthday I spent an entire Easter Sunday morning watching a hermaphrodite masturbate on a revolving stage while trying to drown my liver in a cat house in Munich.-SM3
PFC
Offline
Posts: 1170
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 10:31:13 AM
[Last Edit: 3/1/2012 1:35:56 PM by PFC]
I was watching a three gun match on TV a few weeks back and several people with short barrels were hitting the long range targets, but having trouble getting them to go down.
rauchman
Offline
Posts: 274
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 3:36:18 PM
There is a guy on TOS named Trident that has a comparison of Recce style (16" SS barrel) and SPR style (18" SS) rifles shooting Mk 262 Mod 1 ammo (Black Hills 77 grain at 5.56mm velocities). The thread is found under precision semi-auto's. The 16" rifle is shooting the 77grn bullets to 805 yards before they go subsonic. He has video where he's making pretty consistent hits at 800 yards.

So yes, w/ the right ammo, the 16" gun will work at 500 - 600 yards. Even w/ a lighter weight bullet at .223 velocities, I have to believe you're good to at least 500 yards.
Mounger
Offline
Posts: 604
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:52:31 PM
I don't know about 500 yards, but the guy that one 2011 Texas NG Rifle Match was using a M4gery with ER Shaw 16 inch M4 profile barrel at a maximum of 400 yards.

2012 winner last weekend was using a Colt M4 equipped with a 4x ACOG, again maximum of 400 yards. Most competitors were using 20 inch A2/A4 rifles.

I know its not 500 yards, but I know they can run head to head and even prevail at 400 yards with M855 ammo.

I do know that it is sooo much easier to hit at 400 yards with a a good .308 than with a .556.
Couch-Commando
Drill Instructor, Libyan Army
Offline
Posts: 22012
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/2/2012 12:02:11 AM
[Last Edit: 3/2/2012 12:04:28 AM by Couch-Commando]

Originally Posted By Mounger:
I don't know about 500 yards, but the guy that one 2011 Texas NG Rifle Match was using a M4gery with ER Shaw 16 inch M4 profile barrel at a maximum of 400 yards.

2012 winner last weekend was using a Colt M4 equipped with a 4x ACOG, again maximum of 400 yards. Most competitors were using 20 inch A2/A4 rifles.

I know its not 500 yards, but I know they can run head to head and even prevail at 400 yards with M855 ammo.

I do know that it is sooo much easier to hit at 400 yards with a a good .308 than with a .556.

Yeah, if it'll hit at 400 with m855 it'll sure as hell hit at 500 with sierra match kings and/or hornaday 75 grain bullets.

Like I said, my A2 would remain my primary 500 yard match rifle, but I figure FTR with an M4 decked out as seen above would be fun a few times.

ETA: My ten year forecast is a Colt 6920 (M4 carbine marked) with a 13.2'' LaRue rail, bipod, and a 4x acog model up top. And maybe even a micro aimpoint at an angle on the side. I'd probably go with a sopmod stock (or whatever gives me the best cheek weld, I hate standard collapsing stocks) and definitely a geissele SSA.

Then after that I'd get another 6920 or maybe a 6933 with an aimpoint and a weapons light for home defense and call it good.
Right around your first birthday I spent an entire Easter Sunday morning watching a hermaphrodite masturbate on a revolving stage while trying to drown my liver in a cat house in Munich.-SM3