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Posted: 2/13/2012 1:40:01 PM EST
Which do you prefer and why? This is for a hd carbine
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Link Posted: 2/13/2012 1:47:07 PM EST
neither particularly,
that's a user preference thing so whichever fits you better
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Link Posted: 2/13/2012 7:11:26 PM EST
Try 'em both! Don't let the hive sway you on a matter of ergonomics :-)

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Link Posted: 2/13/2012 7:36:39 PM EST
AFG on the pistol (until its SBR'd). VFG on the rifle.

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Link Posted: 2/13/2012 7:52:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sieversic:
AFG on the pistol (until its SBR'd). VFG on the rifle.


Exact opposite for me. Prefer AFGs on rifles, VFGs on SBRs. Goes to show almost %100 user preference.

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Link Posted: 2/13/2012 7:55:02 PM EST
Tried a VFG for a while and took it off. Don't miss it.
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Link Posted: 2/13/2012 8:37:27 PM EST
I prefer the VFG. An AFG is nice, but for what I like, the VFG offers greater flexibility and options.
That said, it really is 100% personal preference.

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Link Posted: 2/13/2012 8:48:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/13/2012 8:50:41 PM EST by M4A1]
I like VFG's because you can store things in them. I store zip ties in mine... bolt/pin in my miad grip and batteries in my sopmod stock.

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Link Posted: 2/13/2012 8:52:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By M4A1:
I like VFG's because you can store things in them. I store zip ties in mine... bolt/pin in my miad grip and batteries in my sopmod stock.


Me too...I fold over the big zip ties in a tango down grip.

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Link Posted: 2/13/2012 11:13:47 PM EST
VFG. Well Ive used both on my AR and right now with my light/ IRD Im running a KAV grip. Im looking to replace it witha stubbier verion, most likely a magpul RVG.
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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 7:32:19 AM EST
I prefer vfg.

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 7:40:20 AM EST
I tried the AFG, it just didnt feel right!

I will stick with the VFG.
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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 8:09:58 AM EST
I went with the afg, both for carbine and pistol, just liked the way it felt.

My .02

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 8:14:18 AM EST
I just use the magwell.

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 9:01:29 AM EST
I have tried the AFG's in the past and I hate them. I prefer nothing, but if I am running a weapon with a light I use a vertical grip.
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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 9:05:21 AM EST
I use VFG just for better control of the weapon. I usually just hold it at the mag well, but felt it could be yanked or knocked out of your hands much easier. If you are using it for HD I would suggest a VFG, but again it's always what you are more comfortable with. Try both.

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 9:12:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By undercoverwookie:
I use VFG just for better control of the weapon. I usually just hold it at the mag well, but felt it could be yanked or knocked out of your hands much easier. If you are using it for HD I would suggest a VFG, but again it's always what you are more comfortable with. Try both.


VFG > AFG for a tactical environment.

-With PEQs and weapon lights, you can't use a AFG.
-VFG is better for weapon retention (especially in cases of CQB and room clearing)

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 9:38:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:
Originally Posted By undercoverwookie:
I use VFG just for better control of the weapon. I usually just hold it at the mag well, but felt it could be yanked or knocked out of your hands much easier. If you are using it for HD I would suggest a VFG, but again it's always what you are more comfortable with. Try both.


VFG > AFG for a tactical environment.

-With PEQs and weapon lights, you can't use a AFG.
-VFG is better for weapon retention (especially in cases of CQB and room clearing)


Myeh.

I'm not much of an AFG fan, but to say that you can't use one with a light and a PEQ is false. It may not work with your grip and preferred activation, but there are plenty of examples of folks happily using the AFG (sometimes "incorrectly") with PEQs and lights.

~Augee

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 9:48:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:
Originally Posted By undercoverwookie:
I use VFG just for better control of the weapon. I usually just hold it at the mag well, but felt it could be yanked or knocked out of your hands much easier. If you are using it for HD I would suggest a VFG, but again it's always what you are more comfortable with. Try both.


VFG > AFG for a tactical environment.

-With PEQs and weapon lights, you can't use a AFG.
-VFG is better for weapon retention (especially in cases of CQB and room clearing)


Myeh.

I'm not much of an AFG fan, but to say that you can't use one with a light and a PEQ is false. It may not work with your grip and preferred activation, but there are plenty of examples of folks happily using the AFG (sometimes "incorrectly") with PEQs and lights.

~Augee


Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 11:43:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:


Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.


You can use an AFG just fine with lights and lasers. Effectiveness is a function of the end user.

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 11:56:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/14/2012 11:56:32 AM EST by Augee]
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:

Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.




I'm not getting your insistance that it doesn't work despite the number of end-users who have very clearly demonstrated that it can.

I don't even use the damn things, nor did I recommend their use, but it doesn't change the fact that it can, in fact, work.

If we were to limit the use of gear to their "correct" purpose, we'd be in a sorry place indeed. However, now that you've shown me the light, I guess I'll stop using my poncho liner as a blanket, and only ever use it to line my poncho.

If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid. Some people like them. Some people use them incorrectly - but still like them. Not everyone shoots the same way.

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 12:04:03 PM EST
How long of rail are you using?

I have used an AFG on a 12" rail and it was OK, but I prefer a VFG. I only use around an inch of it anyway since my ring finger is jammed in to the junction of the VFG and rail, with my index and middle on the rail.
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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 12:19:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:


Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.


You can use an AFG just fine with lights and lasers. Effectiveness is a function of the end user.


I'd like to see you show me a optimal arrangement of an AFG, PEQ, and Surefire weapon light (not the X300) on an M4 with standard rails (KAC). You will literally have only 1 free unoccupied rail.

Can it work rails longer than the standard KAC rails? Perhaps. But when your BDE policy on modifications to weapons is basically only accessories that you can attach to the supplied rails, that AFG simply won't work.

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 12:24:58 PM EST
AFG myself... I had a VFG and i held my pinky fully on the VFG, my ring and middle straddled where it meets the rail, and my pointer on the rail... so when i tried the AFG it did exactly that but a little more comfortable.

Its like a medium between the VFG and a plain hand guard. So I recommend for you to see what works best for you and your shooting scenario. Or.... BUY BOTH!

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 12:26:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:


Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.


You can use an AFG just fine with lights and lasers. Effectiveness is a function of the end user.


I'd like to see you show me a optimal arrangement of an AFG, PEQ, and Surefire weapon light (not the X300) on an M4 with standard rails (KAC). You will literally have only 1 free unoccupied rail.

Can it work rails longer than the standard KAC rails? Perhaps. But when your BDE policy on modifications to weapons is basically only accessories that you can attach to the supplied rails, that AFG simply won't work.


I didn't see you mention a KAC rail, specifically, M4s aren't limited to KAC rails either as they are not limited to just Military forces. Even if we are talking about US Military issue M4s, there is still a possibility of RIS II rails.

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 12:37:49 PM EST
Both

I like the VFG on true quad rails because they are thick and do not work as well for the "thumb over" method of shooting

However, on the modular FF tubes like the Troy TRX Extreme/VTAC/Alpha, I find that the AFG works great


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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 4:18:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/14/2012 4:32:53 PM EST by Augee]
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:


Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.


You can use an AFG just fine with lights and lasers. Effectiveness is a function of the end user.


I'd like to see you show me a optimal arrangement of an AFG, PEQ, and Surefire weapon light (not the X300) on an M4 with standard rails (KAC). You will literally have only 1 free unoccupied rail.

Can it work rails longer than the standard KAC rails? Perhaps. But when your BDE policy on modifications to weapons is basically only accessories that you can attach to the supplied rails, that AFG simply won't work.


For a righty:

Surefire M951XM00 mounted on the 3 o'clock rail

AN/PEQ-15 or AN/PEQ-2A on the 12 o'clock rail

AFG on the 6 o'clock rail

Surefire SR-07-D-IT mounted to the 9 o'clock rail

Activation is achieved with the support hand thumb. Reverse for lefty.

ETA: You caught me with time on my hands and a fully charged camera:

I substituted the Insight RMT-000-A8 for the Surefire SR07-D-IT since I don't have one, but they work the same way other than the fact that the Surefire remote has the plug for the XM00 tailcap.









The AFG2 is even shorter, but I grabbed the AFG 1 first when I went into the man cave and ran with it.

Jeeze I never thought I'd see the day when I was defending the AFG...

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for someone else. "Optimal" is about as subjective as they get. In your infinite wisdom - pray tell, what is your M4 set up like?

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 4:32:44 PM EST
I run an afg on my rifle, my x300 has a rail mount activation switch at 9:00. With an average length wire, (7") you can virtually put your light where you want it. Oh, and you can get dual activation switches for your peq and light to run on too.

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 4:42:29 PM EST
So after the trip to the range today,I shoot better with no afg or vfg. Im running a 14.5 pinned carbine with plain m4 handguards right now until my DD Omega rails come in tomorrow.
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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 5:28:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By Truth2882:
So after the trip to the range today,I shoot better with no afg or vfg. Im running a 14.5 pinned carbine with plain m4 handguards right now until my DD Omega rails come in tomorrow.


Well the question was pertaining to a home defense rifle, not range shooting, right? I wouldn't use a vfg on a range either, but a range is no house.


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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 7:15:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/14/2012 7:20:17 PM EST by dcs12345]
Originally Posted By Truth2882:
So after the trip to the range today,I shoot better with no afg or vfg. Im running a 14.5 pinned carbine with plain m4 handguards right now until my DD Omega rails come in tomorrow.


If it is only a 7" rail, then the AFG will suck (for most people). It was originally designed for the shooting style where your arm is more extend than what you can do with a 7" handguard.

When I had an AFG on one of my rifles the back of it was even with where the VFG is here:

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 7:34:44 PM EST
I have run both AFG's and VFG's and after going to AFG's for a while, then back and forth between the two quite a bit, I find myself back with all VFG's again. Strangely I find that AFG's are more comfortable to some degree, but I never really felt that they offered the same level of control, especially when placing pressure rearward as I pull the stock in tight to my body. I run quite a bit on my rail sometimes, and while I have successfully used both in this roll, the VFG just feels better to me.

My setup. Chopped down MOE VFG with rail panels;


I added some grip to my VFG and rail panels. Works well with callouses or gloves


This is my primary grip, I ride the DBAL housing with my thumb. Looks uncomfortable in pictures, but feels rock solid.


Here is a secondary grip I use for certain types of shooting and/or positions


I only utilize the constant switch on my pressure pad for the RAID, press for ON, press again for OFF


My normal grip is very close to the FIRE button on the DBAL, a slight adjustment and I am on top of the button for the laser


And finally, should my tape switch fail I can throw the RAID into flashlight mode and utilize the FIRE button on its side to keep the light up and running

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 8:02:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:


Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.


You can use an AFG just fine with lights and lasers. Effectiveness is a function of the end user.


I'd like to see you show me a optimal arrangement of an AFG, PEQ, and Surefire weapon light (not the X300) on an M4 with standard rails (KAC). You will literally have only 1 free unoccupied rail.

Can it work rails longer than the standard KAC rails? Perhaps. But when your BDE policy on modifications to weapons is basically only accessories that you can attach to the supplied rails, that AFG simply won't work.


For a righty:

Surefire M951XM00 mounted on the 3 o'clock rail

AN/PEQ-15 or AN/PEQ-2A on the 12 o'clock rail

AFG on the 6 o'clock rail

Surefire SR-07-D-IT mounted to the 9 o'clock rail

Activation is achieved with the support hand thumb. Reverse for lefty.

ETA: You caught me with time on my hands and a fully charged camera:

I substituted the Insight RMT-000-A8 for the Surefire SR07-D-IT since I don't have one, but they work the same way other than the fact that the Surefire remote has the plug for the XM00 tailcap.

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff502/augeekim/DSC01655.jpg

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff502/augeekim/DSC01657.jpg

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff502/augeekim/DSC01658.jpg

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff502/augeekim/DSC01659.jpg

The AFG2 is even shorter, but I grabbed the AFG 1 first when I went into the man cave and ran with it.

Jeeze I never thought I'd see the day when I was defending the AFG...

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for someone else. "Optimal" is about as subjective as they get. In your infinite wisdom - pray tell, what is your M4 set up like?

~Augee


My setup is exactly the same as your except for a VFG in place of the AFG. This setup with an AFG has been discussed among my platoon (I'm an Infantry Platoon Leader) and the general consensus of the setup you took pictures of is "downright retarded". No one in their right mind would run this setup downrange.

You can utilize none of the benefits of the AFB if you have a PEQ on the top rail and you lose a whole lot in weapon retention without the VFG. All someone has to do is wait for you to come up to a corner on your right side and pull the weapon right away from you.

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Link Posted: 2/14/2012 8:37:58 PM EST
Do you mean literally take it away from you or pull it around and steer the muzzle?

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Link Posted: 2/15/2012 6:59:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/15/2012 7:03:00 AM EST by Augee]
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:

My setup is exactly the same as your except for a VFG in place of the AFG. This setup with an AFG has been discussed among my platoon (I'm an Infantry Platoon Leader) and the general consensus of the setup you took pictures of is "downright retarded". No one in their right mind would run this setup downrange.

You can utilize none of the benefits of the AFB if you have a PEQ on the top rail and you lose a whole lot in weapon retention without the VFG. All someone has to do is wait for you to come up to a corner on your right side and pull the weapon right away from you.


For starters, that's not "my setup," I don't use an AFG, and the only reason I use VFGs on the few rifles I have them on is as a leg rest. Typically, I've found myself preferring no VFG, or a VFG used as a handstop, it's a mock-up I put together for the benefit of visual aid.

The fact that your Infantry platoon thinks that it's "downright retarded" doesn't change the fact that many members of premier DA and CT organizations like and utilize the AFG in conjunction with weaponlights and IR aiming lasers and illuminators. You also presume much to assume that everyone else is limited by your brigade policies and rail configurations. For starters, I don't think the OP ever mentioned that he was military or was looking for a military application for the AFG.

I don't use the AFG and I don't recommend the AFG - I have them because I am not afraid to try out new things to see how they work, and I've got enough uppers that I can set one up as my "primary training rifle" while have other "test" or "proof of concept" uppers that I don't mind messing around with and trying out.

The point of a VFG or AFG is not weapon retention anyhow, are you not using a sling to help with weapon retention? Furthermore, potential uses of the AFG are not limited to use in the "firehose grip." There are those that use them as a somewhat beefier handstop, and prefer that method of shooting. Your inflexibility in being able to accept that other shooters might have different styles and preferences reflect poorly on your overall flexibility and ability to respond to non-standard situations and problems and develop creative and resourceful solutions by maximizing the ability to use the implements at your disposal - including re-imagining them in a different role from their "intended" or "designed" role. Not every tactical situation comes straight out of 7-8, or whatever they're calling it these days. Not everything was covered in IOB (again, BOLC III or whatever they're calling it these days).

If you don't prefer it, don't like it, and don't recommend it - no one minds your saying so. You have a credible opinion and point of view. Add in - no one in your platoon uses one or thinks its a good idea, either. You can even say "everyone in my platoon thinks its downright retarded." It's different than inisisting that it can't work for anyone, that you have a chip on your shoulder, and that your opinion is the only relevant one. It works for some folks, and they like it. I don't, but some do.

Your reasons and logic for not preferring it are sound. Your presumption that everyone shares your needs, style, priorities, and preferences is not.

If you ran across the guy with this weapon dirtside, would you proceed to accost him and tell him all about how you and your platoon think he's downright retarded if he thinks he can use this weapon downrange, because any ol' badguy behind a corner will take it from him?



Or would you accept that maybe it just fits his needs, his equipment, and his training style better than yours?

~Augee



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Link Posted: 2/15/2012 7:39:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/15/2012 7:44:42 AM EST by FMJ]
NONE


However I happpen to have a KAC RAS & FVG on my M4
But the only reason I put it on . Was so I could use my G2 (Surefire/viking tactics mount) with my thumb

Somtimes I dont use my FVG

Sometimes I use magwell hold

Sometimes I just use the handgurd

Just depends on several things



And NO I wouldnt buy or use Magpul AFG
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Link Posted: 2/15/2012 7:49:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By SickMAK90:
I prefer nothing, but if I am running a weapon with a light I use a vertical grip.


+1
Im with ya on that

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Link Posted: 2/15/2012 2:00:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By kkuo12887:

My setup is exactly the same as your except for a VFG in place of the AFG. This setup with an AFG has been discussed among my platoon (I'm an Infantry Platoon Leader) and the general consensus of the setup you took pictures of is "downright retarded". No one in their right mind would run this setup downrange.

You can utilize none of the benefits of the AFB if you have a PEQ on the top rail and you lose a whole lot in weapon retention without the VFG. All someone has to do is wait for you to come up to a corner on your right side and pull the weapon right away from you.


For starters, that's not "my setup," I don't use an AFG, and the only reason I use VFGs on the few rifles I have them on is as a leg rest. Typically, I've found myself preferring no VFG, or a VFG used as a handstop, it's a mock-up I put together for the benefit of visual aid.

The fact that your Infantry platoon thinks that it's "downright retarded" doesn't change the fact that many members of premier DA and CT organizations like and utilize the AFG in conjunction with weaponlights and IR aiming lasers and illuminators. You also presume much to assume that everyone else is limited by your brigade policies and rail configurations. For starters, I don't think the OP ever mentioned that he was military or was looking for a military application for the AFG.

I don't use the AFG and I don't recommend the AFG - I have them because I am not afraid to try out new things to see how they work, and I've got enough uppers that I can set one up as my "primary training rifle" while have other "test" or "proof of concept" uppers that I don't mind messing around with and trying out.

The point of a VFG or AFG is not weapon retention anyhow, are you not using a sling to help with weapon retention? Furthermore, potential uses of the AFG are not limited to use in the "firehose grip." There are those that use them as a somewhat beefier handstop, and prefer that method of shooting. Your inflexibility in being able to accept that other shooters might have different styles and preferences reflect poorly on your overall flexibility and ability to respond to non-standard situations and problems and develop creative and resourceful solutions by maximizing the ability to use the implements at your disposal - including re-imagining them in a different role from their "intended" or "designed" role. Not every tactical situation comes straight out of 7-8, or whatever they're calling it these days. Not everything was covered in IOB (again, BOLC III or whatever they're calling it these days).

If you don't prefer it, don't like it, and don't recommend it - no one minds your saying so. You have a credible opinion and point of view. Add in - no one in your platoon uses one or thinks its a good idea, either. You can even say "everyone in my platoon thinks its downright retarded." It's different than inisisting that it can't work for anyone, that you have a chip on your shoulder, and that your opinion is the only relevant one. It works for some folks, and they like it. I don't, but some do.

Your reasons and logic for not preferring it are sound. Your presumption that everyone shares your needs, style, priorities, and preferences is not.

If you ran across the guy with this weapon dirtside, would you proceed to accost him and tell him all about how you and your platoon think he's downright retarded if he thinks he can use this weapon downrange, because any ol' badguy behind a corner will take it from him?

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff502/augeekim/M4A1%20SOPMOD/M4A1-buy.jpg

Or would you accept that maybe it just fits his needs, his equipment, and his training style better than yours?

~Augee




Fair enough. I agree with you.

I would not accost the soldier using an AFG. There are far too many more important issues to address than someone's shooting preference.

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Link Posted: 2/15/2012 3:24:17 PM EST
had a vfg.. now it's a handstop..

nothing to snag.. lower profile.. still something left to grab..
if i had alot of weight hanging, i'd slap a vfg back on..

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Link Posted: 2/15/2012 4:31:22 PM EST
I tried the AFG since it was only $30, I liked it OK but it wasn't great...standardized on RVG's for both of my ARs in the end.

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