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Posted: 10/3/2011 4:00:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 4:07:34 AM EST by bcd]

Clearly superior ? Not a factor ?

Please support your choice with suitable facts.



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Posted: 10/3/2011 4:50:04 AM EST
most people do not shoot enough to notice a difference.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 4:53:50 AM EST
Just another way of rifling a barrel.......nothing special.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 5:52:23 AM EST
I have owned CHF Noveske and Centurion Arms barrels. They are extremely accurate with the ammos that I have used (the best being Federal XM193). I can only imagine how well they would do with some match ammo. My Colt 6940 and Colt SOCOM barrels are nearly as accurate with the same ammo, but I can tell the difference when they start getting hot. IMO, this is where the benefit of a barrel that is machined from a M249 SAW blank is evident. YMMV....
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Posted: 10/3/2011 6:26:53 AM EST
I have a Noveske N4 and a BCM with a std barrel and the Noveske is more accurate.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 7:06:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 7:13:16 AM EST by chibajoe]
It is a manufacturing process that brings down the per unit cost of making barrels, for a given tolerance; the process itself has no bearing on how good or shitty a barrel will shoot. As a manufacturer, it increases the profit margin for a given barrel at a particular price point. If you can somehow convince stupid people that the barrel (which costs you less to make) is somehow better than the exact same barrel made using a different process, then you can even increase your profit margin by charging a premium for the cheaper (to make) barrels.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 7:54:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 9:06:31 AM EST by Logan09]
Originally Posted By chibajoe:
It is a manufacturing process that brings down the per unit cost of making barrels, for a given tolerance; the process itself has no bearing on how good or shitty a barrel will shoot. As a manufacturer, it increases the profit margin for a given barrel at a particular price point. If you can somehow convince stupid people that the barrel (which costs you less to make) is somehow better than the exact same barrel made using a different process, then you can even increase your profit margin by charging a premium for the cheaper (to make) barrels.


Exactly, people don't seem to realize this. Hammer forging a barrel doesn't make it more accurate(That's up to the skill of the person making it). It's a cheaper way to produce barrels in large quantities. What make's it more expensive is the cost of the machinery. But if your making several thousand barrels a year it's worth it. See AK's. I think people just think it's some new amazing thing that just happened with AR15's but it's been around for a long time with other gun makers. It's a marketing hype, and won't make your barrel any better.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 7:55:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
I have owned CHF Noveske and Centurion Arms barrels. They are extremely accurate with the ammos that I have used (the best being Federal XM193). I can only imagine how well they would do with some match ammo. My Colt 6940 and Colt SOCOM barrels are nearly as accurate with the same ammo, but I can tell the difference when they start getting hot. IMO, this is where the benefit of a barrel that is machined from a M249 SAW blank is evident. YMMV....


OP said nothing about SAW blanks.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 7:57:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By chibajoe:
It is a manufacturing process that brings down the per unit cost of making barrels, for a given tolerance; the process itself has no bearing on how good or shitty a barrel will shoot. As a manufacturer, it increases the profit margin for a given barrel at a particular price point. If you can somehow convince stupid people that the barrel (which costs you less to make) is somehow better than the exact same barrel made using a different process, then you can even increase your profit margin by charging a premium for the cheaper (to make) barrels.

Ignorance MUST be bliss.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 7:57:53 AM EST
Interesting to not that many users in the poll voted that it is superior yet none have commented on why it is with data.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 8:00:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Originally Posted By chibajoe:
It is a manufacturing process that brings down the per unit cost of making barrels, for a given tolerance; the process itself has no bearing on how good or shitty a barrel will shoot. As a manufacturer, it increases the profit margin for a given barrel at a particular price point. If you can somehow convince stupid people that the barrel (which costs you less to make) is somehow better than the exact same barrel made using a different process, then you can even increase your profit margin by charging a premium for the cheaper (to make) barrels.

Ignorance MUST be bliss.


What are you talking about? Every single thing he just said was true. Come on man, that information is freely available on the Internet, you aren't new... I'm surprised you would refute that. Would have expected you to actually researched a bit.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 8:03:16 AM EST
This is great. Some manufacturers have been doing this for a long time, and their barrels were often derided as "cheap" due to being hammer forged. Now in the last year or two some of the fancy "TIER 1 TACTICAL DUTY RATED EXTREME" manufacturers started making (and marketing) them and now they're a must-have item.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 8:04:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By durabo:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
I have owned CHF Noveske and Centurion Arms barrels. They are extremely accurate with the ammos that I have used (the best being Federal XM193). I can only imagine how well they would do with some match ammo. My Colt 6940 and Colt SOCOM barrels are nearly as accurate with the same ammo, but I can tell the difference when they start getting hot. IMO, this is where the benefit of a barrel that is machined from a M249 SAW blank is evident. YMMV....


OP said nothing about SAW blanks.


They are CHF
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Posted: 10/3/2011 8:12:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Originally Posted By durabo:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
I have owned CHF Noveske and Centurion Arms barrels. They are extremely accurate with the ammos that I have used (the best being Federal XM193). I can only imagine how well they would do with some match ammo. My Colt 6940 and Colt SOCOM barrels are nearly as accurate with the same ammo, but I can tell the difference when they start getting hot. IMO, this is where the benefit of a barrel that is machined from a M249 SAW blank is evident. YMMV....[/quote]

OP said nothing about SAW blanks.


They are CHF


I was speaking to that statement. OP was talking about the CHFing process, you are talking about particular barrel types made by top end barrel manufacturers. Barrel material was not stated. Nor are we talking about barrel manufacturers vs. Each other here.

This is a conversation about one barrel making process vs. all others and that is all.

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Posted: 10/3/2011 8:14:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 8:15:12 AM EST by mathecb]
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Originally Posted By chibajoe:
It is a manufacturing process that brings down the per unit cost of making barrels, for a given tolerance; the process itself has no bearing on how good or shitty a barrel will shoot. As a manufacturer, it increases the profit margin for a given barrel at a particular price point. If you can somehow convince stupid people that the barrel (which costs you less to make) is somehow better than the exact same barrel made using a different process, then you can even increase your profit margin by charging a premium for the cheaper (to make) barrels.

Ignorance MUST be bliss.


Coming from a guy who gets extreme accuracy from Federal XM193.........
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Posted: 10/3/2011 8:23:05 AM EST
Aren't CHF barrels expensive only because the newer manufacturers charging to pay off the more expensinve machinery? CHF is nothing new. Just a new marketing strategy.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 8:28:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 8:28:53 AM EST by brasidas]
In my limited experience, CHF barrels are slightly less accurate than button rifled ones.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 8:29:21 AM EST
A good barrel is a good barrel, whether button rifled or cold hammer forged. There are other far more important factors, I don't use the CHF process in and of itself to determine what barrel to buy. DD happens to make great barrels that are CHF. Colt makes great barrels that are button rifled. I'll use either depending on pricing and availablilty, but I won't pay more for hammer forged itself. CHF isn't what makes them worth the price.

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Posted: 10/3/2011 8:29:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 8:31:27 AM EST by jonconsiglio]
I agree with Augee. If I want accuracy, I'm looking at the manufacturer, not so much the process (unless I want stainless). If I'm looking at expected life, then I'm looking at both the manufacturer and the process.

I don't know, I had an SR15 barrel just over 15,000 rounds and it was still as accuarate as day one. I had a (Colt non CHF barrel) start to open up a bit after 7,000 rounds a few years back. How much CHF plays into that, I'm not sure, but something in the CHF KAC barrel is extending the life.

I have a hammer forged BCM on it's way this week, so we'll see how that goes. I don't think any manufacturer says anything about it being more accurate, just that it should hold accuracy longer. Since most CHF barrels are also chrome lined, they should be less accurate than a non chrome lined, button rifled barrel from the same company.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 9:34:34 AM EST
Is this a true statement. Most sniper rifles and hi end rifles use CHF barrels. And before you answer with your emotions research a little.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 9:48:27 AM EST
I have my PSA lower built, and trying to decide where to go on my Upper, the two i came down to are both PSA's, one is 4150, and one is FN's CHF that PSA uses in half their offerings now.

I am looking to go with 16' middy, and like the Troy TRX standard rail, but the one below is a carbine length gas system, and i have asked them if it would be possible to do in mid-length.

The Dissipator, is mid-length at 16’, and since it has the lower gas block I could change it all out down the road. Just like to remove the front site as well. If you take all the extras out it comes to about 40-50.00 difference between 4150 vs. hammer forged.

http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/2537.php

http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/2265.php
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Posted: 10/3/2011 9:49:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Originally Posted By chibajoe:
It is a manufacturing process that brings down the per unit cost of making barrels, for a given tolerance; the process itself has no bearing on how good or shitty a barrel will shoot. As a manufacturer, it increases the profit margin for a given barrel at a particular price point. If you can somehow convince stupid people that the barrel (which costs you less to make) is somehow better than the exact same barrel made using a different process, then you can even increase your profit margin by charging a premium for the cheaper (to make) barrels.

Ignorance MUST be bliss.


I'll have to take your word on that. You're welcome to post information that refutes what I wrote.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 9:59:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 12:44:37 PM EST by RCarter]
Originally Posted By brasidas:
In my limited experience, CHF barrels are slightly less accurate than button rifled ones.


According to Bravo Company their BFH are button rifled . Button rifling is also a cold forming process .

edit : jk . inside joke w/ someone I figured would see this thread . On a serious note , I'm more worried about the steel used .



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Posted: 10/3/2011 10:14:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 10:15:22 AM EST by wrc777]
Originally Posted By RCarter:
Originally Posted By brasidas:
In my limited experience, CHF barrels are slightly less accurate than button rifled ones.


According to Bravo Company their BFH are button rifled . Button rifling is also a cold forming process .





NM read your post wrong.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 10:15:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 10:17:14 AM EST by js308]
Looks like many people are voting that don't have a clue what they are talking about. I can't believe option #1 and #2 are leading in the poll.
Option number 2 should read: "Superior on paper for company profits, same quality as button rifle"
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Posted: 10/3/2011 10:18:36 AM EST
I've never noticed a difference in accuracy but then again I don't often shoot for groups. I can shoot groups with rounds touching with both my cryo-treated LMT barrel and CHF DD barrel, that's plenty good for me.

I doubt I'll ever notice the difference, if there is one. I will not pay more for a CHF barrel when I can get a similar, high quality barrel for less. For the same money, sure I'll get CHF.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 10:25:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 10:30:10 AM EST by M4A1]
Originally Posted By chibajoe:
It is a manufacturing process that brings down the per unit cost of making barrels, for a given tolerance; the process itself has no bearing on how good or shitty a barrel will shoot. As a manufacturer, it increases the profit margin for a given barrel at a particular price point. If you can somehow convince stupid people that the barrel (which costs you less to make) is somehow better than the exact same barrel made using a different process, then you can even increase your profit margin by charging a premium for the cheaper (to make) barrels.


^^ This pretty much sums it up. It looks like many of those people already voted in the poll. CHF is cheaper to produce, but not better than button rifling. A good barrel is a good barrel. It's just 2 different ways of doing it.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 10:27:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By chibajoe:
It is a manufacturing process that brings down the per unit cost of making barrels, for a given tolerance; the process itself has no bearing on how good or shitty a barrel will shoot. As a manufacturer, it increases the profit margin for a given barrel at a particular price point. If you can somehow convince stupid people that the barrel (which costs you less to make) is somehow better than the exact same barrel made using a different process, then you can even increase your profit margin by charging a premium for the cheaper (to make) barrels.


Well said.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 10:39:27 AM EST
CHF is only cheaper if you build enough barrels to pay off the tooling.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 10:51:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By wrc777:
CHF is only cheaper if you build enough barrels to pay off the tooling.


And that's the point. What are you trying to say? I highly doubt that the companies selling CHF barrel's actually make them. There probably out sourced.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 11:58:15 AM EST
There are theoretical benefits to CHF barrels, most will never fire their weapons to the point those benefits are manifest.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 2:49:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By Logan09:
Originally Posted By wrc777:
CHF is only cheaper if you build enough barrels to pay off the tooling.


And that's the point. What are you trying to say? I highly doubt that the companies selling CHF barrel's actually make them. There probably out sourced.


Daniel Defense does...
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Posted: 10/3/2011 2:53:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By R0N:
There are theoretical benefits to CHF barrels, most will never fire their weapons to the point those benefits are manifest.


Ron,
What are the theoretical benefits?
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Posted: 10/3/2011 4:15:26 PM EST
Sorry Gentlemen, I was on my phone earlier and I do have more pressing matters than this.The stupid people have to make money so they can buy more CHF barrels.

STOLEN from Centurion Arms.....

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

Hammer forging is a process in which a drilled and reamed blank has its rifled bore and chamber formed by swaging. During production of the barrel, the internal profile is formed by a series of opposing power hammers which concentrically “crush” the drilled blank around a precision-ground and hardened mandrel. This process yields an extremely uniform bore with a tough, consistent surface finish on the inside of the barrel. A proprietary honing operation along with a specially tapered section of rifling formed during the forging process ensures excellent accuracy. The forging process also work hardens the barrel steel resulting in a very durable and much longer lasting barrel.


There is more to it than just making barrels for less residual investment. I can't speak from experience about all CHF barrels, but I am happy with the ones that I have and look to do future builds with the same barrels. If you can't afford them, buy what you can afford and enjoy it.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 4:20:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Originally Posted By chibajoe:
It is a manufacturing process that brings down the per unit cost of making barrels, for a given tolerance; the process itself has no bearing on how good or shitty a barrel will shoot. As a manufacturer, it increases the profit margin for a given barrel at a particular price point. If you can somehow convince stupid people that the barrel (which costs you less to make) is somehow better than the exact same barrel made using a different process, then you can even increase your profit margin by charging a premium for the cheaper (to make) barrels.

Ignorance MUST be bliss.


Coming from a guy who gets extreme accuracy from Federal XM193.........


Extremely accurate for that particular ammo. I buy what my range carries as a courtesy for never charging me for use of their range and letting me do as I wish when I am there. They even give it to me at a discount though I never asked, so that is what I use unless they are out. No bliss here....

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Posted: 10/3/2011 5:45:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By Logan09:
Originally Posted By wrc777:
CHF is only cheaper if you build enough barrels to pay off the tooling.


And that's the point. What are you trying to say? I highly doubt that the companies selling CHF barrel's actually make them. There probably out sourced.


My point is that you do not know that the CHF barrel is cheaper to produce. It might be but it might not be. If the barrel is outsourced who is to say the actual barrel manufacturer is not charging an arm and a leg for it? The companies that have the equipment to make CHF barrels and also have the volume are probably supplying the US and other militaries. I imagine the markup on anything milspec to the military is pretty high. At least is was when I worked for the US gov't.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 5:55:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 5:57:00 PM EST by beltfed74]
If you want accuracy you want a button or cut rifled barrel that is handlapped and airguaged. CHF barrels will never as a whole be as accurate. That is fact, also all the cheap big manufacturers that build bolt guns with ho-hum accuracy seem to use cold hammer forged barrels, in mass production facilities.

One part of the Savage accuracy equation versus Remington was the fact that they used button rifled barrels versus Big Greens hammered blanks.

Beating the shit out of steel imposes stress on the metal that can never be relieved to a satisfactory level.

Hart, Krieger, Shilen, Douglas, PAC-NOR, Lilja etc etc never screwed around with hammer forged blanks.


ETA Longevity? I cant comment on that, I chuck my stuff by 10k rounds, I use my ARs from just about everything but a bench after their zeroe'd and all my bolt guns use Shilen barrels.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 6:16:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
- from Centurion Arms.....

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

Hammer forging is a process in which a drilled and reamed blank has its rifled bore and chamber formed by swaging. During production of the barrel, the internal profile is formed by a series of opposing power hammers which concentrically “crush” the drilled blank around a precision-ground and hardened mandrel. This process yields an extremely uniform bore with a tough, consistent surface finish on the inside of the barrel. A proprietary honing operation along with a specially tapered section of rifling formed during the forging process ensures excellent accuracy. The forging process also work hardens the barrel steel resulting in a very durable and much longer lasting barrel.


When it comes to objective facts, statements made by people trying to sell stuff come pretty close to the bottom - but at least you posted something to support your position, so thank you. Most of the pro-CHF voters did not post.

Durability would seem to be the main claim for hammer forging, but I have yet to see any actual testing to back it up. I'd love to see something like " 'X' hundred barrels were tested, button-rifled averaged 'x' thousand rounds before exceeding (spec), CHF averaged [1.5x, 2x, x + n, etc] before exceediing (spec)," but I don't think it's there. If it is, I sure can't find it. Without that, claims are just, well, claims.

I was suprised to hear any claims about accuracy at all, after decades of bolt-action rifle discussions along the lines of "(whoever, but esp. Ruger) rifles are crap because they use cheap hammer-forged barrels, inaccurate, not suitable for tactical use . . ." etc. Who knows, maybe times have changed.
Or maybe it's "we hate XYZ this year, and they're crap because they're hammer-forged / we love ABC this year, and they're the best because they're hammer-forged !"

At any rate, I'm looking to buy several complete uppers this year to update some older stuff, and I'm still on the fence about this . . .

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Posted: 10/3/2011 6:21:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 6:23:55 PM EST by M4A1]
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
- from Centurion Arms.....

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

Hammer forging is a process in which a drilled and reamed blank has its rifled bore and chamber formed by swaging. During production of the barrel, the internal profile is formed by a series of opposing power hammers which concentrically “crush” the drilled blank around a precision-ground and hardened mandrel. This process yields an extremely uniform bore with a tough, consistent surface finish on the inside of the barrel. A proprietary honing operation along with a specially tapered section of rifling formed during the forging process ensures excellent accuracy. The forging process also work hardens the barrel steel resulting in a very durable and much longer lasting barrel.


When it comes to objective facts, statements made by people trying to sell stuff come pretty close to the bottom - but at least you posted something to support your position, so thank you. Most of the pro-CHF voters did not post.

Durability would seem to be the main claim for hammer forging, but I have yet to see any actual testing to back it up. I'd love to see something like " 'X' hundred barrels were tested, button-rifled averaged 'x' thousand rounds before exceeding (spec), CHF averaged [1.5x, 2x, x + n, etc] before exceediing (spec)," but I don't think it's there. If it is, I sure can't find it. Without that, claims are just, well, claims.

I was suprised to hear any claims about accuracy at all, after decades of bolt-action rifle discussions along the lines of "(whoever, but esp. Ruger) rifles are crap because they use cheap hammer-forged barrels, inaccurate, not suitable for tactical use . . ." etc. Who knows, maybe times have changed.
Or maybe it's "we hate XYZ this year, and they're crap because they're hammer-forged / we love ABC this year, and they're the best because they're hammer-forged !"

At any rate, I'm looking to buy several complete uppers this year to update some older stuff, and I'm still on the fence about this . . .



All he did was post the process of making a CHF barrel, it did not have anything to do with CHF being superior to Button Rifling, because it is not.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 6:22:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
If you want accuracy you want a button or cut rifled barrel that is handlapped and airguaged. CHF barrels will never as a whole be as accurate. That is fact, also all the cheap big manufacturers that build bolt guns with ho-hum accuracy seem to use cold hammer forged barrels, in mass production facilities.

One part of the Savage accuracy equation versus Remington was the fact that they used button rifled barrels versus Big Greens hammered blanks.

Beating the shit out of steel imposes stress on the metal that can never be relieved to a satisfactory level.

Hart, Krieger, Shilen, Douglas, PAC-NOR, Lilja etc etc never screwed around with hammer forged blanks.


This is what I'm talking about, that's been the word on bolt guns as long as I can remember.

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Posted: 10/3/2011 6:27:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By M4A1:
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
- from Centurion Arms.....

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

Hammer forging is a process in which a drilled and reamed blank has its rifled bore and chamber formed by swaging. During production of the barrel, the internal profile is formed by a series of opposing power hammers which concentrically “crush” the drilled blank around a precision-ground and hardened mandrel. This process yields an extremely uniform bore with a tough, consistent surface finish on the inside of the barrel. A proprietary honing operation along with a specially tapered section of rifling formed during the forging process ensures excellent accuracy. The forging process also work hardens the barrel steel resulting in a very durable and much longer lasting barrel.


When it comes to objective facts, statements made by people trying to sell stuff come pretty close to the bottom - but at least you posted something to support your position, so thank you. Most of the pro-CHF voters did not post.

Durability would seem to be the main claim for hammer forging, but I have yet to see any actual testing to back it up. I'd love to see something like " 'X' hundred barrels were tested, button-rifled averaged 'x' thousand rounds before exceeding (spec), CHF averaged [1.5x, 2x, x + n, etc] before exceediing (spec)," but I don't think it's there. If it is, I sure can't find it. Without that, claims are just, well, claims.

I was suprised to hear any claims about accuracy at all, after decades of bolt-action rifle discussions along the lines of "(whoever, but esp. Ruger) rifles are crap because they use cheap hammer-forged barrels, inaccurate, not suitable for tactical use . . ." etc. Who knows, maybe times have changed.
Or maybe it's "we hate XYZ this year, and they're crap because they're hammer-forged / we love ABC this year, and they're the best because they're hammer-forged !"

At any rate, I'm looking to buy several complete uppers this year to update some older stuff, and I'm still on the fence about this . . .



All he did was post the process of making a CHF barrel, it did not have anything to do with CHF being superior to Button Rifling, because it is not.


The claims of superiority are built right into it (in blue).

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Posted: 10/3/2011 6:27:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Sorry Gentlemen, I was on my phone earlier and I do have more pressing matters than this.The stupid people have to make money so they can buy more CHF barrels.

STOLEN from Centurion Arms.....

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

Hammer forging is a process in which a drilled and reamed blank has its rifled bore and chamber formed by swaging. During production of the barrel, the internal profile is formed by a series of opposing power hammers which concentrically “crush” the drilled blank around a precision-ground and hardened mandrel. This process yields an extremely uniform bore with a tough, consistent surface finish on the inside of the barrel. A proprietary honing operation along with a specially tapered section of rifling formed during the forging process ensures excellent accuracy. The forging process also work hardens the barrel steel resulting in a very durable and much longer lasting barrel.


There is more to it than just making barrels for less residual investment. I can't speak from experience about all CHF barrels, but I am happy with the ones that I have and look to do future builds with the same barrels. If you can't afford them, buy what you can afford and enjoy it.


Is your post supposed to be some sort of evidence of CHF being superior? Cause all you did was post the manufacturing process.
As far as what people can afford, there is usually only a 100 dollar difference between the two. You are not a "high roller" cause you have a hammer forged barrel.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 6:34:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 6:53:52 PM EST by js308]
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By M4A1:
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
- from Centurion Arms.....

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

Hammer forging is a process in which a drilled and reamed blank has its rifled bore and chamber formed by swaging. During production of the barrel, the internal profile is formed by a series of opposing power hammers which concentrically “crush” the drilled blank around a precision-ground and hardened mandrel. This process yields an extremely uniform bore with a tough, consistent surface finish on the inside of the barrel. A proprietary honing operation along with a specially tapered section of rifling formed during the forging process ensures excellent accuracy. The forging process also work hardens the barrel steel resulting in a very durable and much longer lasting barrel.


When it comes to objective facts, statements made by people trying to sell stuff come pretty close to the bottom - but at least you posted something to support your position, so thank you. Most of the pro-CHF voters did not post.

Durability would seem to be the main claim for hammer forging, but I have yet to see any actual testing to back it up. I'd love to see something like " 'X' hundred barrels were tested, button-rifled averaged 'x' thousand rounds before exceeding (spec), CHF averaged [1.5x, 2x, x + n, etc] before exceediing (spec)," but I don't think it's there. If it is, I sure can't find it. Without that, claims are just, well, claims.

I was suprised to hear any claims about accuracy at all, after decades of bolt-action rifle discussions along the lines of "(whoever, but esp. Ruger) rifles are crap because they use cheap hammer-forged barrels, inaccurate, not suitable for tactical use . . ." etc. Who knows, maybe times have changed.
Or maybe it's "we hate XYZ this year, and they're crap because they're hammer-forged / we love ABC this year, and they're the best because they're hammer-forged !"

At any rate, I'm looking to buy several complete uppers this year to update some older stuff, and I'm still on the fence about this . . .



All he did was post the process of making a CHF barrel, it did not have anything to do with CHF being superior to Button Rifling, because it is not.


The claims of superiority are built right into it (in blue).



We almost forgot that button barrels don't have a uniform bore, they don't last long, they don't have a consistent surface, they don't have hardened steel and they are not accurate. Sure glad our military uses CHF barrels.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 6:38:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 6:45:41 PM EST by M4A1]
Originally Posted By js308:
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By M4A1:
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
- from Centurion Arms.....

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

Hammer forging is a process in which a drilled and reamed blank has its rifled bore and chamber formed by swaging. During production of the barrel, the internal profile is formed by a series of opposing power hammers which concentrically “crush” the drilled blank around a precision-ground and hardened mandrel. This process yields an extremely uniform bore with a tough, consistent surface finish on the inside of the barrel. A proprietary honing operation along with a specially tapered section of rifling formed during the forging process ensures excellent accuracy. The forging process also work hardens the barrel steel resulting in a very durable and much longer lasting barrel.


When it comes to objective facts, statements made by people trying to sell stuff come pretty close to the bottom - but at least you posted something to support your position, so thank you. Most of the pro-CHF voters did not post.

Durability would seem to be the main claim for hammer forging, but I have yet to see any actual testing to back it up. I'd love to see something like " 'X' hundred barrels were tested, button-rifled averaged 'x' thousand rounds before exceeding (spec), CHF averaged [1.5x, 2x, x + n, etc] before exceediing (spec)," but I don't think it's there. If it is, I sure can't find it. Without that, claims are just, well, claims.

I was suprised to hear any claims about accuracy at all, after decades of bolt-action rifle discussions along the lines of "(whoever, but esp. Ruger) rifles are crap because they use cheap hammer-forged barrels, inaccurate, not suitable for tactical use . . ." etc. Who knows, maybe times have changed.
Or maybe it's "we hate XYZ this year, and they're crap because they're hammer-forged / we love ABC this year, and they're the best because they're hammer-forged !"

At any rate, I'm looking to buy several complete uppers this year to update some older stuff, and I'm still on the fence about this . . .



All he did was post the process of making a CHF barrel, it did not have anything to do with CHF being superior to Button Rifling, because it is not.


The claims of superiority are built right into it (in blue).



Thank you BCD! How could we have missed that. We almost forgot that button barrels don't have a uniform bore, they don't last long, they don't have hardened steel and they are not accurate. Sure glad our military uses CHF barrels.


It's OK js308,
Based on the poll results it's obvious that most on here haven't got a clue what they are talking about. This thread has gone to hell quick.
I'm going to respectfully bow out of this one.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 6:49:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By js308:
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By M4A1:
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
- from Centurion Arms.....

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

Hammer forging is a process in which a drilled and reamed blank has its rifled bore and chamber formed by swaging. During production of the barrel, the internal profile is formed by a series of opposing power hammers which concentrically “crush” the drilled blank around a precision-ground and hardened mandrel. This process yields an extremely uniform bore with a tough, consistent surface finish on the inside of the barrel. A proprietary honing operation along with a specially tapered section of rifling formed during the forging process ensures excellent accuracy. The forging process also work hardens the barrel steel resulting in a very durable and much longer lasting barrel.


When it comes to objective facts, statements made by people trying to sell stuff come pretty close to the bottom - but at least you posted something to support your position, so thank you. Most of the pro-CHF voters did not post.

Durability would seem to be the main claim for hammer forging, but I have yet to see any actual testing to back it up. I'd love to see something like " 'X' hundred barrels were tested, button-rifled averaged 'x' thousand rounds before exceeding (spec), CHF averaged [1.5x, 2x, x + n, etc] before exceediing (spec)," but I don't think it's there. If it is, I sure can't find it. Without that, claims are just, well, claims.

I was suprised to hear any claims about accuracy at all, after decades of bolt-action rifle discussions along the lines of "(whoever, but esp. Ruger) rifles are crap because they use cheap hammer-forged barrels, inaccurate, not suitable for tactical use . . ." etc. Who knows, maybe times have changed.
Or maybe it's "we hate XYZ this year, and they're crap because they're hammer-forged / we love ABC this year, and they're the best because they're hammer-forged !"

At any rate, I'm looking to buy several complete uppers this year to update some older stuff, and I'm still on the fence about this . . .



All he did was post the process of making a CHF barrel, it did not have anything to do with CHF being superior to Button Rifling, because it is not.


The claims of superiority are built right into it (in blue).



Thank you BCD! How could we have missed that. We almost forgot that button barrels don't have a uniform bore, they don't last long, they don't have a consistent surface, they don't have hardened steel and they are not accurate. Sure glad our military uses CHF barrels.


That's exactly what I'm trying to say - it's not simply a description of the manufacturing process, it has all these other claims built into it with nothing to support them.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 6:51:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 6:51:50 PM EST by js308]
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By js308:
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By M4A1:
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
- from Centurion Arms.....

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

Hammer forging is a process in which a drilled and reamed blank has its rifled bore and chamber formed by swaging. During production of the barrel, the internal profile is formed by a series of opposing power hammers which concentrically “crush” the drilled blank around a precision-ground and hardened mandrel. This process yields an extremely uniform bore with a tough, consistent surface finish on the inside of the barrel. A proprietary honing operation along with a specially tapered section of rifling formed during the forging process ensures excellent accuracy. The forging process also work hardens the barrel steel resulting in a very durable and much longer lasting barrel.


When it comes to objective facts, statements made by people trying to sell stuff come pretty close to the bottom - but at least you posted something to support your position, so thank you. Most of the pro-CHF voters did not post.

Durability would seem to be the main claim for hammer forging, but I have yet to see any actual testing to back it up. I'd love to see something like " 'X' hundred barrels were tested, button-rifled averaged 'x' thousand rounds before exceeding (spec), CHF averaged [1.5x, 2x, x + n, etc] before exceediing (spec)," but I don't think it's there. If it is, I sure can't find it. Without that, claims are just, well, claims.

I was suprised to hear any claims about accuracy at all, after decades of bolt-action rifle discussions along the lines of "(whoever, but esp. Ruger) rifles are crap because they use cheap hammer-forged barrels, inaccurate, not suitable for tactical use . . ." etc. Who knows, maybe times have changed.
Or maybe it's "we hate XYZ this year, and they're crap because they're hammer-forged / we love ABC this year, and they're the best because they're hammer-forged !"

At any rate, I'm looking to buy several complete uppers this year to update some older stuff, and I'm still on the fence about this . . .



All he did was post the process of making a CHF barrel, it did not have anything to do with CHF being superior to Button Rifling, because it is not.


The claims of superiority are built right into it (in blue).



Thank you BCD! How could we have missed that. We almost forgot that button barrels don't have a uniform bore, they don't last long, they don't have a consistent surface, they don't have hardened steel and they are not accurate. Sure glad our military uses CHF barrels.


That's exactly what I'm trying to say - it's not simply a description of the manufacturing process, it has all these other claims built into it with nothing to support them.


Oh, I thought you were backing his claim. My apologies to you.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 7:00:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By js308:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
Sorry Gentlemen, I was on my phone earlier and I do have more pressing matters than this.The stupid people have to make money so they can buy more CHF barrels.

STOLEN from Centurion Arms.....

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

Hammer forging is a process in which a drilled and reamed blank has its rifled bore and chamber formed by swaging. During production of the barrel, the internal profile is formed by a series of opposing power hammers which concentrically “crush” the drilled blank around a precision-ground and hardened mandrel. This process yields an extremely uniform bore with a tough, consistent surface finish on the inside of the barrel. A proprietary honing operation along with a specially tapered section of rifling formed during the forging process ensures excellent accuracy. The forging process also work hardens the barrel steel resulting in a very durable and much longer lasting barrel.


There is more to it than just making barrels for less residual investment. I can't speak from experience about all CHF barrels, but I am happy with the ones that I have and look to do future builds with the same barrels. If you can't afford them, buy what you can afford and enjoy it.


Is your post supposed to be some sort of evidence of CHF being superior? Cause all you did was post the manufacturing process.
As far as what people can afford, there is usually only a 100 dollar difference between the two. You are not a "high roller" cause you have a hammer forged barrel.


It is supposed to be some kind of indication that cheap production (after the initial expensive production setup) is not the only positive about the CHF process, as someone previously stated. Bear in mind that Centurion uses Pacnor blanks and I am not making or posting a blanket statement about all CHF barrels from any maker for any firearm in this world.

Some people will buy far lesser quality gear to save a few dollars or because it is indeed all that they can afford. $100 is a lot of money to some people. It isn't something to poke fun at, especially these days.
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Posted: 10/3/2011 7:12:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By js308:
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By M4A1:
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By evlblkwpnz:
- from Centurion Arms.....

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

Hammer forging is a process in which a drilled and reamed blank has its rifled bore and chamber formed by swaging. During production of the barrel, the internal profile is formed by a series of opposing power hammers which concentrically “crush” the drilled blank around a precision-ground and hardened mandrel. This process yields an extremely uniform bore with a tough, consistent surface finish on the inside of the barrel. A proprietary honing operation along with a specially tapered section of rifling formed during the forging process ensures excellent accuracy. The forging process also work hardens the barrel steel resulting in a very durable and much longer lasting barrel.


When it comes to objective facts, statements made by people trying to sell stuff come pretty close to the bottom - but at least you posted something to support your position, so thank you. Most of the pro-CHF voters did not post.

Durability would seem to be the main claim for hammer forging, but I have yet to see any actual testing to back it up. I'd love to see something like " 'X' hundred barrels were tested, button-rifled averaged 'x' thousand rounds before exceeding (spec), CHF averaged [1.5x, 2x, x + n, etc] before exceediing (spec)," but I don't think it's there. If it is, I sure can't find it. Without that, claims are just, well, claims.

I was suprised to hear any claims about accuracy at all, after decades of bolt-action rifle discussions along the lines of "(whoever, but esp. Ruger) rifles are crap because they use cheap hammer-forged barrels, inaccurate, not suitable for tactical use . . ." etc. Who knows, maybe times have changed.
Or maybe it's "we hate XYZ this year, and they're crap because they're hammer-forged / we love ABC this year, and they're the best because they're hammer-forged !"

At any rate, I'm looking to buy several complete uppers this year to update some older stuff, and I'm still on the fence about this . . .



All he did was post the process of making a CHF barrel, it did not have anything to do with CHF being superior to Button Rifling, because it is not.


The claims of superiority are built right into it (in blue).



Thank you BCD! How could we have missed that. We almost forgot that button barrels don't have a uniform bore, they don't last long, they don't have a consistent surface, they don't have hardened steel and they are not accurate. Sure glad our military uses CHF barrels.


That's exactly what I'm trying to say - it's not simply a description of the manufacturing process, it has all these other claims built into it with nothing to support them.

Then post your supporting documentation that CHF (no matter who does it) is just a gimmick I give up....

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Posted: 10/3/2011 7:12:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By js308:
Originally Posted By chibajoe:
It is a manufacturing process that brings down the per unit cost of making barrels, for a given tolerance; the process itself has no bearing on how good or shitty a barrel will shoot. As a manufacturer, it increases the profit margin for a given barrel at a particular price point. If you can somehow convince stupid people that the barrel (which costs you less to make) is somehow better than the exact same barrel made using a different process, then you can even increase your profit margin by charging a premium for the cheaper (to make) barrels.


Well said.

Agreed
http://bettincustomguns.com/Technical%20Information/Barrel%20rifling%20techniques.htm

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Posted: 10/3/2011 7:40:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By js308:
Originally Posted By bcd:
Originally Posted By js308:
Originally Posted By bcd:

The claims of superiority are built right into it (in blue).



Thank you BCD! How could we have missed that. We almost forgot that button barrels don't have a uniform bore, they don't last long, they don't have a consistent surface, they don't have hardened steel and they are not accurate. Sure glad our military uses CHF barrels.


That's exactly what I'm trying to say - it's not simply a description of the manufacturing process, it has all these other claims built into it with nothing to support them.


Oh, I thought you were backing his claim. My apologies to you.


No problem, I'm used to arguing with someone I'm agreeing with - I've been married a long time . . .

And to EBW, I'm not on either side of this yet - I started the poll to gather information. I read a number of threads on here where mfg. "A" or "B" were put forward as the clear choice, without challenge, based almost entirely on these CHF barrels. That seemed odd to me, because the word on bolt-action rifles has always been the opposite. Maybe they have some unique benefit in the AR platform, where extreme accuracy is less of an issue than durability / longevity ?

I am starting to reach one conclusion - the internet seems to be crawling with shills

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Posted: 10/3/2011 8:07:32 PM EST
Rather than argue, perhaps those who question the process could simply bring their opinions to the professionals who actually make CHF barrels:

http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/Precision%20Shooting%20Magazine%20-%20November-%202005%20(Vol_%2053%20-%20No_%207).htm

Since I don't have a engineering degree, I'm like most thinking Americans: CHF sounds like a good deal. When I can afford it, I'll get it. And I did, HK had CHF nitrided barrels in the 1970's, and HK's sold for $160 in those days.

If I had my choice, I'd have bought a 6.8 in CHF. It's just a matter of time..
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