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Posted: 8/4/2011 5:03:53 PM EDT
[#1]
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That whole who get's what from who bit has been touched on more than once here an on m4c, I've run my mouth about it quite a bit also. I'm mostly annoyed by the fact, and try and not buy stuff that the important parts are of unknown origin, no matter WHO is peddling it or sticking there name on it. Dudes were all up in arms that PSA and Spikes were using FN barrels.. And braggin about it!  They can't do that! It's not the way things are done!
I think it's a bunch of BS myself, if you don't want to admit who makes your shit you likely ought not to be using it. We are all big boys and we know there are only so many people that make parts for these things. There are always botique guns and outfits that DO make there own stuff, and hats off to them, but if you are just assembling stuff, stand on that and your customer service and eye for popular setups, don't try and pretend you mined the damn ore to smelt and make the steel. It doesn't matter who makes what for who. It matters that the parts are made to the specs set forth by the brand that will ultimately be selling the parts. Why people get wrapped around the axle on needing to know what machine shop parts come from is beyond me. A heavy amount of parts comes from shops that most have never heard of and wouldn't even know if they were told the name. If brand A gets parts made by brand B you are buying the parts from brand A. So if there is something wrong with your part you will be calling brand A to deal with it, so it doesn't really matter that brand B actually made the part. Put your trust in the end brand because at the end of the day that's all that matters. That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying, except I think it's BS and it DOES matter who Brand B is in your example. It'd cut out a lot of crap if we knew where the crap was coming from, not just who's selling it. Firearms are the only entity I know of that is set up this way. I know who made the individual components in my smart phone, I know who made the resistors and capacitors on my motherboard in my computer, I know who made the balljoints in my car. I don't like leaving things up to other people when it involves things I really care about. The whole setup with the AR industry is goofy man. It might feel more normal if you've watched it develop for years from knee deep in it but I'm a fairly new guy and after getting familiar with the machine and the industry and market, it's very weird. This is why you have the "flavor of the month" junk and a hundred and something people putting these things together. There's no shame in just picking good parts and assembling them, there's no need to hide it, and I hope to hell PSA and Spikes little stroke of marketing smarts by pimping some FN stuff that everyone is hot for these days makes a change in things. For every part in your car that you know where it came from there are probably 10 or more that you have no idea. I know people who are in the fabrication business. So I've seen some cool things being made. Stuff that you never even think about but you probably encounter every single day. The truth is, there is a ton of stuff that comes from small shops with 15 or less employees that you have never heard of. Just the way it is. It's not like you are going to call those machine shops directly anyways. |
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Posted: 8/4/2011 6:27:52 PM EDT
[#2]
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For every part in your car that you know where it came from there are probably 10 or more that you have no idea. I know people who are in the fabrication business. So I've seen some cool things being made. Stuff that you never even think about but you probably encounter every single day. The truth is, there is a ton of stuff that comes from small shops with 15 or less employees that you have never heard of. Just the way it is. It's not like you are going to call those machine shops directly anyways. Tons of us out there. I work for a small sheet metal fabricator (4 to 6 people). I know for a fact a large number of people on ARFCOM have been near parts we have made. By near, I mean passing by or possibly interacting with. Blows my mind when I actually think about it. Do you care? Not at all. We made the parts to our customers specs and they worked as designed when needed. |
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Posted: 8/4/2011 7:01:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
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That whole who get's what from who bit has been touched on more than once here an on m4c, I've run my mouth about it quite a bit also. I'm mostly annoyed by the fact, and try and not buy stuff that the important parts are of unknown origin, no matter WHO is peddling it or sticking there name on it. Dudes were all up in arms that PSA and Spikes were using FN barrels.. And braggin about it! They can't do that! It's not the way things are done!
I think it's a bunch of BS myself, if you don't want to admit who makes your shit you likely ought not to be using it. We are all big boys and we know there are only so many people that make parts for these things. There are always botique guns and outfits that DO make there own stuff, and hats off to them, but if you are just assembling stuff, stand on that and your customer service and eye for popular setups, don't try and pretend you mined the damn ore to smelt and make the steel. It doesn't matter who makes what for who. It matters that the parts are made to the specs set forth by the brand that will ultimately be selling the parts. Why people get wrapped around the axle on needing to know what machine shop parts come from is beyond me. A heavy amount of parts comes from shops that most have never heard of and wouldn't even know if they were told the name. If brand A gets parts made by brand B you are buying the parts from brand A. So if there is something wrong with your part you will be calling brand A to deal with it, so it doesn't really matter that brand B actually made the part. Put your trust in the end brand because at the end of the day that's all that matters. That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying, except I think it's BS and it DOES matter who Brand B is in your example. It'd cut out a lot of crap if we knew where the crap was coming from, not just who's selling it. Firearms are the only entity I know of that is set up this way. I know who made the individual components in my smart phone, I know who made the resistors and capacitors on my motherboard in my computer, I know who made the balljoints in my car. I don't like leaving things up to other people when it involves things I really care about. The whole setup with the AR industry is goofy man. It might feel more normal if you've watched it develop for years from knee deep in it but I'm a fairly new guy and after getting familiar with the machine and the industry and market, it's very weird. This is why you have the "flavor of the month" junk and a hundred and something people putting these things together. There's no shame in just picking good parts and assembling them, there's no need to hide it, and I hope to hell PSA and Spikes little stroke of marketing smarts by pimping some FN stuff that everyone is hot for these days makes a change in things. For every part in your car that you know where it came from there are probably 10 or more that you have no idea. I know people who are in the fabrication business. So I've seen some cool things being made. Stuff that you never even think about but you probably encounter every single day. The truth is, there is a ton of stuff that comes from small shops with 15 or less employees that you have never heard of. Just the way it is. It's not like you are going to call those machine shops directly anyways. The car is an extreme example, as I'm not typical, it's an 81 Rabbit diesel truck with 624K miles on it that my Father bought in 84. So yeah, I know where pretty much everything came from since it's all been worn out three or four times over. I'm also in the euro car parts business so I'm no stranger to supply chains for mechanical items, I've had to source things from various eastern European country's when the distributor quit offering them more than a few times. That's part of the reason I find the whole AR bit so strange. I know I'm an odd-ball and no I don't care where the delta ring or such came from as long as it's the right size and material, but I do care about important stuff. I know where my barrel came from, I know where my upper was forged but not who milled it, I have a strong suspicion where my bolt and carrier came from. I know who made my charging handle. I know who made my LPK, stock, fore end, sights, and a good loose idea on a few other parts. The whole thing's just silly though in my small opinion. And I'll continue to spend my money with the most transparent assemblers that I can find. AFTER I take a long look at who makes there parts. I find the "hey, we just made it like they said" bit morally offensive, if someone made crap that they knew was crap, they should have suggested a better way or turned it down. I can see why someone who didn't want to put too much time in it wouldn't be interested in that though for what it's worth. |
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Posted: 8/4/2011 7:30:59 PM EDT
[#4]
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The car is an extreme example, as I'm not typical, it's an 81 Rabbit diesel truck with 624K miles on it that my Father bought in 84. So yeah, I know where pretty much everything came from since it's all been worn out three or four times over. I'm also in the euro car parts business so I'm no stranger to supply chains for mechanical items, I've had to source things from various eastern European country's when the distributor quit offering them more than a few times. That's part of the reason I find the whole AR bit so strange. I know I'm an odd-ball and no I don't care where the delta ring or such came from as long as it's the right size and material, but I do care about important stuff. I know where my barrel came from, I know where my upper was forged but not who milled it, I have a strong suspicion where my bolt and carrier came from. I know who made my charging handle. I know who made my LPK, stock, fore end, sights, and a good loose idea on a few other parts. The whole thing's just silly though in my small opinion. And I'll continue to spend my money with the most transparent assemblers that I can find. AFTER I take a long look at who makes there parts. I find the "hey, we just made it like they said" bit morally offensive, if someone made crap that they knew was crap, they should have suggested a better way or turned it down. I can see why someone who didn't want to put too much time in it wouldn't be interested in that though for what it's worth. If you buy from reputible brands then this doens't apply. I don't give a shit who makes parts for BCM, because a) the spec has to be met or the parts will be rejected and b) BCM's commitment to quality is all that matters when you are buying a product with their name on it. The need to know every place where your parts come from is pointless. And like I said before, there are parts coming from small machine shops that feed the larger "known" names. You probably wouldn't know the names of those small shops even if someone told you. And just because you think you know where a certain part came from doesn't mean it actually came from there. So once again - the end company you are buying from is far more important than the source. The end company's comitment to quality or lack of is going to determine the final product. And as to your previous comments about knowing who made parts in your smartphone - if something malfunctioned in your phone are you going to call Texas Instruments to have them replace circuitry? Probably not, so it really doesn't matter that you know who's stuff is in there. Do you know who stamped out the frame for your flat screen TV? How about your oven? Toaster oven? Microwave? The list goes on and on. There are so many small shops with contracts to make parts for just about everything. You will never know who makes it all. And it doesn't matter, because if anything goes wrong you won't be calling them anyways because you are not their customer. |
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Posted: 8/4/2011 7:32:52 PM EDT
[#5]
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For every part in your car that you know where it came from there are probably 10 or more that you have no idea. I know people who are in the fabrication business. So I've seen some cool things being made. Stuff that you never even think about but you probably encounter every single day. The truth is, there is a ton of stuff that comes from small shops with 15 or less employees that you have never heard of. Just the way it is. It's not like you are going to call those machine shops directly anyways. Tons of us out there. I work for a small sheet metal fabricator (4 to 6 people). I know for a fact a large number of people on ARFCOM have been near parts we have made. By near, I mean passing by or possibly interacting with. Blows my mind when I actually think about it. Do you care? Not at all. We made the parts to our customers specs and they worked as designed when needed. Exactly my point. This is how manufacturing works. |
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Posted: 8/4/2011 7:53:49 PM EDT
[#6]
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The car is an extreme example, as I'm not typical, it's an 81 Rabbit diesel truck with 624K miles on it that my Father bought in 84. So yeah, I know where pretty much everything came from since it's all been worn out three or four times over. I'm also in the euro car parts business so I'm no stranger to supply chains for mechanical items, I've had to source things from various eastern European country's when the distributor quit offering them more than a few times. That's part of the reason I find the whole AR bit so strange. I know I'm an odd-ball and no I don't care where the delta ring or such came from as long as it's the right size and material, but I do care about important stuff. I know where my barrel came from, I know where my upper was forged but not who milled it, I have a strong suspicion where my bolt and carrier came from. I know who made my charging handle. I know who made my LPK, stock, fore end, sights, and a good loose idea on a few other parts. The whole thing's just silly though in my small opinion. And I'll continue to spend my money with the most transparent assemblers that I can find. AFTER I take a long look at who makes there parts. I find the "hey, we just made it like they said" bit morally offensive, if someone made crap that they knew was crap, they should have suggested a better way or turned it down. I can see why someone who didn't want to put too much time in it wouldn't be interested in that though for what it's worth. If you buy from reputible brands then this doens't apply. I don't give a shit who makes parts for BCM, because a) the spec has to be met or the parts will be rejected and b) BCM's commitment to quality is all that matters when you are buying a product with their name on it. The need to know every place where your parts come from is pointless. And like I said before, there are parts coming from small machine shops that feed the larger "known" names. You probably wouldn't know the names of those small shops even if someone told you. And just because you think you know where a certain part came from doesn't mean it actually came from there. So once again - the end company you are buying from is far more important than the source. The end company's comitment to quality or lack of is going to determine the final product. I don't quite disagree, but I think a little differently. While BCM is no doubt top notch, they are top notch right now. There have been other instances in this particular industry of the quality of a given brand name product varying quit a lot. Yes this is, in the long term, a self correcting system to some degree, but it seems to me if you knew what you were getting, and if it changed, it'd be a lot harder to crap out. Wasn't there just a thread about this with CMMG back in the election mess where they got so busy they started putting out crap where prior, and possibly after, they had a decent product? I'm not picking on BCM(or CMMG for that matter), just a handy examples. You aren't going to get it, and that's OK, that's what the BCM's of the world are for(and bless them for it). But I'm a technician, I'm not satisfied till I have torn everything apart down to it's atoms and seen where it came from, how it was made, why, and if I can make it better. I dare say this is part of how one becomes a BCM themselves. I do this with everything, AR's just another machine to unravel. And I don't like secrets. The AR as a machine/hobby and the AR as a weapon are completely separate to me. As a machine/hobby, all I've said applies. As a weapon, you are totally right, I don't care as long as it is made right and works. But I make those distinctions, I have the luxury of making them thankfully. |
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Posted: 8/4/2011 7:56:03 PM EDT
[#7]
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And as to your previous comments about knowing who made parts in your smartphone - if something malfunctioned in your phone are you going to call Texas Instruments to have them replace circuitry? Probably not, so it really doesn't matter that you know who's stuff is in there. Do you know who stamped out the frame for your flat screen TV? How about your oven? Toaster oven? Microwave? The list goes on and on. There are so many small shops with contracts to make parts for just about everything. You will never know who makes it all. And it doesn't matter, because if anything goes wrong you won't be calling them anyways because you are not their customer. All the examples after the TV are stuff I don't really care about, it's all disposable junk. So is the smartphone, but it's worth knowing who makes what in it primarily for software compatibility issues, same bit with computer components. Think video driver compatibility and the like. |
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Posted: 8/5/2011 8:23:51 PM EDT
[#8]
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$20-25 here. Use Tax? Not familiar with that esp. with lowers. There shouldn't be any tax if you paid elsewhere. The "Use" tax is something Washington State implemented not long ago. Essentially Washington state is trying to get companies in other states to collect sales tax from internet and mail orders to give back to Washington. Most companies of course will not do this, but since firearms have to be transferred through an FFL the state makes the FFL collect tax on the item. It's really shitty! |
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Posted: 8/6/2011 9:11:36 AM EDT
[#9]
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$20-25 here. Use Tax? Not familiar with that esp. with lowers. There shouldn't be any tax if you paid elsewhere. The "Use" tax is something Washington State implemented not long ago. Essentially Washington state is trying to get companies in other states to collect sales tax from internet and mail orders to give back to Washington. Most companies of course will not do this, but since firearms have to be transferred through an FFL the state makes the FFL collect tax on the item. It's really shitty! Most states have had use tax for years. Tax agencies are becoming more aggressive about collecting now, however. |
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Posted: 8/6/2011 9:03:50 PM EDT
[#10]
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Thanks for the point in the right direction guys.. I will look around and see what I can do but if uppers from cmmg and superior work the same as bushy or noveske them I mine as well keep it cheap and spend the money else where.. I have 3 CMMG lowers I was kinda just hoping to get a better quality one. Since there all pretty much the same theres no point I guess There are some differences in receivers. Most of them are high shelf, and very few are low shelf. Low shelf receivers are RDIAS compatible; high shelf are not. CMMG receivers are among the few that are RDIAS compatible. Maybe I should not have mentioned it, since I know that you know it. |
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Posted: 8/6/2011 11:09:31 PM EDT
[#11]
try mega machine shop lowers , they look great. and from what i hear are some of the best in fit/finnish. i currently have a colt and a lmt. saving my pennies for a mega though. ill be my 9mm
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Posted: 8/7/2011 3:50:52 AM EDT
[#12]
For what it's worth, the main difference I have noticed between different brand lowers has been in conjunction with Magpul Pmags. Some of my lowers will drop empty Pmags free and some will not. I have paid a little more for a lower (Spike's) that I knew would do so, after buying some that wouldn't such as Surplus Ammo and Arms, and AeroPrecision.
Of course this only makes a difference if I am using Pmags for that particular gun and if the gun's intended use is of the type where I need them to drop free. As an example, I have non-5.56 calibers that don't use Pmags anyhow, and I have a few bench rest varmint rifles where having a mag drop free isn't a real issue, as I can easily pull them out. |
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Posted: 8/7/2011 6:38:47 AM EDT
[#13]
There are some brands that offer a better lower. Not in material or the forging process but in finial machining and applied finish. Mega is one, generous mag well bevel, smooth surface and tough finish. One of the best lowers I have used is the new AXTS lowers. A small company but some innovative designs. They run tight tolerances and have excellent finish.
Some of the better known companies may not run as tight of tolerances, I see oversize pin holes for the FCG, buffer pin off slightly, finishes that scratch easily. Aero Precision makes lowers for a lot of different sellers like PSA and others. Their lowers I have used are in spec, pin holes are tight, finish is OK but not as bullet proof as others. Look at the assorted lowers that Rainier Arms has on their website, big spread in price but most started as the same forging. |
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Posted: 8/7/2011 11:53:13 AM EDT
[#14]
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There are some brands that offer a better lower. Not in material or the forging process but in finial machining and applied finish. Mega is one, generous mag well bevel, smooth surface and tough finish. One of the best lowers I have used is the new AXTS lowers. A small company but some innovative designs. They run tight tolerances and have excellent finish. Some of the better known companies may not run as tight of tolerances, I see oversize pin holes for the FCG, buffer pin off slightly, finishes that scratch easily. Aero Precision makes lowers for a lot of different sellers like PSA and others. Their lowers I have used are in spec, pin holes are tight, finish is OK but not as bullet proof as others. Look at the assorted lowers that Rainier Arms has on their website, big spread in price but most started as the same forging. Any PSA lower that has an LW prefix is not aero precision. All of the aero made ones have an AP prefix. |
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Posted: 8/7/2011 3:16:25 PM EDT
[#15]
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From a functional POV, as long as it's within spec, they are all basically the same. Some are milled a little cleaner, some are finished better and some have cooler rollmarks but in the end, none of that will make the rifle shoot any better or more reliably. Now that said, I do have an OCD\Anal thing about matching my uppers and lowers when possible. So if I needed a new lower and I knew I was going put a BCM upper on it then I would buy a BCM lower. I don't mind paying a little more to get the lower I want (within reason) seeing how the lower is one of the cheapest parts of most builds. +1 pretty much as I see it |
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