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WillAndrews
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Posted: 5/27/2011 12:35:44 AM

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
A very good friend of mine is looking to buy his first AR. He wants to start out with a quality gun. I had initially mentioned getting an upper from BCM and letting me help him put together a lower, but he is adamant about buying a complete rifle. He doesn't need a barrel longer than 16", wants a collapsing stock, and railed forearm. The purpose would be a general SHTF/home defense carbine.

I have used the DD lite rails on my last 2 builds. I have been extremely pleased with them. If I were buying the same gun for my self I would get a Daniel Defense middy, based on my experience with their products and their reputation here. He is a Marine and very proficient with iron sights. I am thinking he would appreciate the extra couple inches of sight radius from the mid-length. Also, he is 6'3", and could probably make use of a couple inches more forearm.

The DD comes with a fixed rear sight. How good are these? How would they compare to a flip up back up like MI? (What I have on mine) How would they compare to the A2 that he is used to?

He found a Sig 516 Patrol for sale locally for $200 less than the DD. These haven't been out long, and I haven't heard much about them. I did read that they use a proprietary bolt carrier that eliminated the carrier tilt problem experienced in earlier piston guns. He has not expressed any interest in suppressing it, but the Sig would have an advantage there. The Sig doesn't come with iron sights, but does come with a red dot. What do y'all think about the sig red dot?

Quick comparison:
Weight: Sig- 7lbs 4.8 oz DD- 6lbs 12.2 oz
Barrel: Sig- 1:7 chrome lined DD- 1:7 Chrome lined, cold hammer forged
Gas: Sig-Carbine Piston 3 position DD- Mid length
Bolt: Sig- ? DD- High pressure test
Chamber: Sig-556 DD- 556
Warranty: Sig- Life? DD- Life?
Price: Sig $1200 (local dealer) DD- $1429 AIM

Standard Accessories:
Sig: Aluminum GI mag, MagPul MOE stock, MOE grip, Sig red dot

DD: PMag, DD A1.5 rear sight, MOE stock, DD vertical grip.

Sig 556 Patrol

DD M4 V3

Please correct anything I said that was false. Feel free to add any info you think will be helpful to my friend. If you know of another AR in the same price range that would be better, speak up please. All technical comments welcome. I'm sending him a link to this thread.

Thank You


JW1069
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Posted: 5/27/2011 10:58:09 AM
Not sure why your buddy is dead-set against snapping a complete upper and complete lower together to open up his options and save money, but whatever.

The DD is the clear choice. SIG's quality is sketchy in general and there isn't much of a track record to go on with this new rifle. The red dot is a cheap Chinese knock-off on there to lure in uneducated buyers...I certainly would NOT trust my life to it on a HD/SD rifle.
"Because there are more bad guys out there who deserve it." - Costa
JAVO
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Posted: 5/27/2011 11:03:23 AM
Out of those two, the DD hands down!

J
"If I must choose between righteousness and peace, I choose righteousness."-- Theodore Roosevelt
warpig8654
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Posted: 5/27/2011 11:05:43 AM
DD.
"You can take the man out of the Marine Corps but you can never take the Marine Corps out of the man"

"If I wanted your opinion I would give it to you" - Gunny

Jesus is my lord & savior.
rrjacobo95269
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Posted: 5/27/2011 11:07:23 AM
DD-M4

RJ
boricua9mm
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Posted: 5/27/2011 11:15:10 AM

Originally Posted By JW1069:
Not sure why your buddy is dead-set against snapping a complete upper and complete lower together to open up his options and save money, but whatever.

The DD is the clear choice. SIG's quality is sketchy in general and there isn't much of a track record to go on with this new rifle. The red dot is a cheap Chinese knock-off on there to lure in uneducated buyers...I certainly would NOT trust my life to it on a HD/SD rifle.


Absolutely agree! Since 2004, I've seen far too many SIG debacles for me to ever trust the company's products again. Whether it's the GSR with gritty triggers, 100 grit sandpaper rails and incorrectly drilled hammer pin holes, or the installation of the wrong triggers on 22x series pistols, or P238s that simply didn't work no matter what (how do you screw this up when the R&D was already done for you 20 years prior), 556 rifles with canted rails, flimsy Chinese furniture, and bolt carriers peening the barrel trunion (again, how do you screw this up when the R&D was already done for you), I just can't take any of the new products seriously for personal protection.

Daniel Defense all the way.
RDS_FSU
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Posted: 5/27/2011 12:40:24 PM
Originally Posted By boricua9mm:

Originally Posted By JW1069:
Not sure why your buddy is dead-set against snapping a complete upper and complete lower together to open up his options and save money, but whatever.

The DD is the clear choice. SIG's quality is sketchy in general and there isn't much of a track record to go on with this new rifle. The red dot is a cheap Chinese knock-off on there to lure in uneducated buyers...I certainly would NOT trust my life to it on a HD/SD rifle.


Absolutely agree! Since 2004, I've seen far too many SIG debacles for me to ever trust the company's products again. Whether it's the GSR with gritty triggers, 100 grit sandpaper rails and incorrectly drilled hammer pin holes, or the installation of the wrong triggers on 22x series pistols, or P238s that simply didn't work no matter what (how do you screw this up when the R&D was already done for you 20 years prior), 556 rifles with canted rails, flimsy Chinese furniture, and bolt carriers peening the barrel trunion (again, how do you screw this up when the R&D was already done for you), I just can't take any of the new products seriously for personal protection.

Daniel Defense all the way.


Just watched that video and, well I have to say it was impressive... probably going to be the next purchase.
WillAndrews
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Posted: 5/27/2011 1:51:08 PM
Thanks guys. I know it probably looks like I'm looking for validation. My buddy asked my opinion, and I want to get him hooked up with the best rifle possible. The clerk at his local gun store is on a swat team, and he is really pushing the new Sigs in his shop. I'm just a civi who shoots ARs on the weekends. I could tell my friend weighed the SWAT guys opinion more than mine. On the otherhand, I'm not trying to sell him a rifle. I have nothing to gain if he takes my recommendation.

One concern I had was the proprietary parts on the Sig. If the AR market doesn't pan out for Sig, they could pull out and spare parts could be hard to find down the road.

I appreciate everyones opinion. Please keep them coming.

JW1069
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Posted: 5/27/2011 1:59:30 PM
Originally Posted By WillAndrews:
The clerk at his local gun store is on a swat team, and he is really pushing the new Sigs in his shop.


Says it all right there.

"Because there are more bad guys out there who deserve it." - Costa
fzj80addict
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Posted: 5/28/2011 8:10:53 AM
DD all the way my DDM4V1 is going on two years with no problems at all.
d90king
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Posted: 5/28/2011 8:13:26 AM
DD M4 V3. Its really not even close IMHO...
sm711
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Posted: 5/28/2011 8:25:41 AM
As others have said, Daniel Defense is the better choice.
CARarick
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Posted: 5/28/2011 3:45:01 PM
He's a member of SWAT? Oh he must mean the Salesman With Alcoholic Tendencies team. I've never heard of a SWAT team member having a second job, seeing as how they're always on call. Then again, I might just be ignorant.
ICIK
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Posted: 5/28/2011 3:57:05 PM
[Last Edit: 5/28/2011 3:59:19 PM by ICIK]
Originally Posted By CARarick:
He's a member of SWAT? Oh he must mean the Salesman With Alcoholic Tendencies team. I've never heard of a SWAT team member having a second job, seeing as how they're always on call. Then again, I might just be ignorant.


I have known a couple that sat in shops and talked to customers to make a little extra cash. Not really knowledgeable guys, kind of just a "warm body".

OT: I would take the DD.
warpig8654
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Posted: 5/28/2011 3:59:12 PM
Originally Posted By CARarick:
He's a member of SWAT? Oh he must mean the Salesman With Alcoholic Tendencies team. I've never heard of a SWAT team member having a second job, seeing as how they're always on call. Then again, I might just be ignorant.


Plenty of SWAT operators have second jobs. Do you realize the amount of off duty jobs open to police officers? Their specialties not withstanding.
"You can take the man out of the Marine Corps but you can never take the Marine Corps out of the man"

"If I wanted your opinion I would give it to you" - Gunny

Jesus is my lord & savior.
boomhower1820
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Posted: 5/28/2011 4:29:17 PM
A DD V3 is my patrol rifle. Stick an Aimpoint Pro on it and go to work. The rear site is very nice and IMHO a fixed rear site is a must for a patrol rifle. If the optic goes down your still in the fight without needing to pop up any sites. I have mine set up lower third and they are not an obstruction at all.

Sigs quality has taken a crap and I wouldn't trust the 516 as a paper puncher no less trust my life to it.
REM762
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Posted: 5/28/2011 6:23:29 PM
DD and don't look back.
M249_junky
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Posted: 5/28/2011 11:30:55 PM
My vote is for DD. I've finger banged a few of the sig rifles and I really was not impressed.

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MaxxII
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Posted: 5/28/2011 11:42:58 PM
I've never handled either one, but I love Sig Sauer pistols.

Having said that, I would personally buy the DD M4 V3 before the Sig 516. The DD M4 is proven, 516 isnt.

Nick
"Chaos, confusion, dispair......my work is done here."
....Some guy named Murphy....