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LA_357SIG
The Colt kool-aid tastes funny. I'll pass.
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Posted: 5/26/2011 4:27:06 PM
I was searching the 'net for some AR parts and came across some companies that I never heard of before offering "milspec" AR15 parts and complete rifles. I remembered reading the authors comments on why the chart was temporarily removed and one of his points that stood out was "companies using the chart as a checklist for [manufacturing]." Since then just about every new company that came out with an AR is comparable to Colt. BCM (right out the gate which is respectable), then Spikes conformed to the standard, then most of the old school companies started offering "milspec" AR's.

I guess what I am asking is: What seperates PSA and Sionics from BCM and Colt if they use (or claim to use) all the same "MIL-STD" materials and testing?

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"If i was you I would keep it just like it is... and shoot the shit out of it until something breaks. Then replace whatever it is and keep shooting." - durabo
M4A1
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Posted: 5/26/2011 4:33:16 PM
Originally Posted By LA_357SIG:
I was searching the 'net for some AR parts and came across some companies that I never heard of before offering "milspec" AR15 parts and complete rifles. I remembered reading the authors comments on why the chart was temporarily removed and one of his points that stood out was "companies using the chart as a checklist for [manufacturing]." Since then just about every new company that came out with an AR is comparable to Colt. BCM (right out the gate which is respectable), then Spikes conformed to the standard, then most of the old school companies started offering "milspec" AR's.

I guess what I am asking is: What seperates PSA and Sionics from BCM and Colt if they use (or claim to use) all the same "MIL-STD" materials and testing?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Who?
I guess the answer would be that BCM and Colt have all been tried, tested and verified. Some of these (Colt, LMT, DD) actually have military contracts.
There are many new companies coming to this very saturated market. I think I would rather stick to the company with well known quality.
warpig8654
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Posted: 5/26/2011 4:44:29 PM
What makes one better than the other? Depends on the person's desires & the features that they require and/or want in the gun.
"You can take the man out of the Marine Corps but you can never take the Marine Corps out of the man"

"If I wanted your opinion I would give it to you" - Gunny

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TxEnforcer
Fuck ya'll, I'm from TEXAS
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Posted: 5/26/2011 4:52:43 PM
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 4:53:31 PM by TxEnforcer]
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...

just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...

It varies with what you want and what you plan to do with it.
'' The strong move quiet and the weak start riots''

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GutWrench
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Posted: 5/26/2011 4:54:57 PM
Originally Posted By warpig8654:
What makes one better than the other? Depends on the person's desires & the features that they require and/or want in the gun.


This.

I prefer LMT over all others because they are consistent. Not to mention they have the best customer service in the industry.
Edited Aimless
AJ_Dual
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Posted: 5/26/2011 4:55:56 PM
"THE CHART"





Omnis vestri substructio es servus ad noris.
altopwescap
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Posted: 5/26/2011 5:19:24 PM
Uppers are cut to military specifications, however AR lowers are not. A true mil spec lower accepts an auto sear and has a third pin hole.

In common terms "mil spec" merely means parts conform to military specification print diminsions and tolerances, short of permitting full automatic operation.

Three parts that shouldn't be mil spec in an AR are the hammer, disconnector or selector switch.
occasionalvisitor
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Posted: 5/26/2011 5:21:36 PM
First of all, if an AR part is designed to work only in a semi-auto gun and dimensionally different from the part in a US Military issue gun, then it can't Mil-spec.

Mil-spec parts are parts that are certified by a US Government Supplier (manufacturer or reseller) to meet US Government specifications for: materials, origin, manufacturing procedures, finishing, dimensions, inspections and testing, and in some cases shelf and service life/cycles.

Mil-spec parts cost the Government more than Commercial Spec parts because of the difference in documentation, and testing.

Companies with Government Supply Contracts have an advantage over those without, because they gain the advantage of the economies of scale. Meaning, if you make more at a time, then the cost to manufacture or purchase per unit goes down.

In the case of bolts and BCGs, some companies with military contracts make all of their parts the same, because while it may cost a little more to manufacture every part to Mil-spec with testing, it may work out to be less expensive than to run two parallel assemblly/manufacturing lines (Mil-spec and commercial). Due to price competition, with the volume of parts now being sold on the commercial market, some military suppliers are now selling Mil-spec and Commercial Spec parts. The price difference appears to be slight (again, in the case of BCGs), about $10-$20. This may infact be the manufacturing cost of not doing the MPI and HP testing required as part of the Mil-Spec, OR there may be other differences in manufacturing.

I had friends working as engineers at General Dynamics before it was bought out by BOEING. They constantly complained about the cost of providing the Government Required Documentation on every part they supplied individually or as part of assemblies or complete weapons as being a significant percentage of the cost of every product.

Because of this, I suggest that you ask before ordering parts, if the Mil-spec part label is important to you. Some Sellers are offering both Mil-Spec and commercial versions of parts on their websites (ther's a reason they show two parts from the same manufacturer at different prices).
ELPerdido
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Posted: 5/26/2011 5:30:52 PM
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
"THE CHART"







Isn't some horror movie music supposed to play when you mention "the chart"?
wagonwheel1
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Posted: 5/26/2011 5:56:57 PM
Mil-Spec is a required minimum, in the case of the AR its dimensions, metal properties, etc. Nothing usually states that you can't go above and beyond with regards to

increased strength of metals as long as your not changing dimensions.

Mil-Spec electronic components for example will perform in temperature extremes of cold and heat. Many commercial electronic products will fail
in these same climates.
John87
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Posted: 5/26/2011 6:10:06 PM
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...

just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...

It varies with what you want and what you plan to do with it.


i remember seeing that in someones sig line....
CTbuilder1
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Posted: 5/26/2011 6:15:30 PM
Comparing mil spec rifles to mil spec food doesn't mean a thing. When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP. Are there aspects contained in the TDP that can be improved upon? Sure. How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount. So while "mil-spec" often gets thrown around with no real context, it actually holds some weight when talking about these rifles.
AJ_Dual
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Posted: 5/26/2011 6:18:00 PM
Originally Posted By ELPerdido:
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
"THE CHART"







Isn't some horror movie music supposed to play when you mention "the chart"?


Dum dum dum da DUUUMMMMM!
Omnis vestri substructio es servus ad noris.
warpig8654
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Posted: 5/26/2011 6:24:50 PM
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 6:37:29 PM by warpig8654]
Originally Posted By altopwescap:
Uppers are cut to military specifications, however AR lowers are not. A true mil spec lower accepts an auto sear and has a third pin hole.

In common terms "mil spec" merely means parts conform to military specification print diminsions and tolerances, short of permitting full automatic operation.

Three parts that shouldn't be mil spec in an AR are the hammer, disconnector or selector switch.


Just because the lower might have a third hole with an auto sear doesn't mean it's "mil-spec" either.
"You can take the man out of the Marine Corps but you can never take the Marine Corps out of the man"

"If I wanted your opinion I would give it to you" - Gunny

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bud7h7
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Posted: 5/26/2011 6:36:43 PM
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...


just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...


LOL, that is awesome

gmtmaster
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Posted: 5/26/2011 6:57:05 PM
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 7:02:03 PM by gmtmaster]
The real answer....For alot of people... "The internet told me it was better."

Just look at all of the threads as of late...
CTbuilder1
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Posted: 5/26/2011 7:06:21 PM
Originally Posted By bud7h7:
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...


just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...


LOL, that is awesome



This is the kind of stuff the "just as good as" crowd gets off on. In reality the comparison is meaningless.
thebomber
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Posted: 5/26/2011 7:57:05 PM
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 8:00:16 PM by thebomber]
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...

just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...

It varies with what you want and what you plan to do with it.



Finally someone who gets it. First off there is no one "mil spec" for the M16/M4. There are many of them. A Mil spec is ony a standard.....that doesn't mean it's a good standard or a relevant standard. In addition, with the Military, waivers (UAI, repair) to standards are the norm. Not bashing Mil specs just offering words of caution....they may not be the holy grail you think they are.

I cook with wine and sometimes it ends up in the food
thebomber
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Posted: 5/26/2011 7:59:15 PM
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Comparing mil spec rifles to mil spec food doesn't mean a thing. When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP. Are there aspects contained in the TDP that can be improved upon? Sure. How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount. So while "mil-spec" often gets thrown around with no real context, it actually holds some weight when talking about these rifles.



Not necessarily.

I cook with wine and sometimes it ends up in the food
GutWrench
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Posted: 5/26/2011 8:09:49 PM
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Comparing mil spec rifles to mil spec food doesn't mean a thing. When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP. Are there aspects contained in the TDP that can be improved upon? Sure. How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount. So while "mil-spec" often gets thrown around with no real context, it actually holds some weight when talking about these rifles.


TDP shmeedypee...

The TDP is only used for Colt/FN/LMT M4 or older M16's sold to the US Government as far as know. It has nothing to do with most guns on the civilian market. The testing of parts in accordance with the TDP is not a secret and is used by many other manufactures/assemblers. Some have even released documented proof of this testing. Some claim to have "seen" the TDP and insist the parts they assemble into weapons are used. With all that being said, look at some of the improved weapons out there like those made by POF, KAC, LMT, MA, NRW, DD and others. They are by far much better then some neutered M4 in its pure form IMO. The only thing that needs to be held to the testing are the BCG, barrel and correct dimensions. All of which can be done without the TDP.

I wont even comment on "The Chart." One just has to read the dribble posted on TOS to learn how bias his information is.
Edited Aimless
warpig8654
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Posted: 5/26/2011 8:16:21 PM
Originally Posted By thebomber:
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...

just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...

It varies with what you want and what you plan to do with it.



Finally someone who gets it. First off there is no one "mil spec" for the M16/M4. There are many of them. A Mil spec is ony a standard.....that doesn't mean it's a good standard or a relevant standard. In addition, with the Military, waivers (UAI, repair) to standards are the norm. Not bashing Mil specs just offering words of caution....they may not be the holy grail you think they are.



You are correct with regard to a "standard." Reference mil-spec for the M16/M4, however, I think it's a high standard that most commercial AR manufacturers are no where near meeting. So in this instance when we're talking about standards for a weapons system there isn't much that's better than current mil-std. I can understand the jabs at mil-spec with regard to some other gov't items meant for the mil not being so up to par in accordance with most folks opinion.
"You can take the man out of the Marine Corps but you can never take the Marine Corps out of the man"

"If I wanted your opinion I would give it to you" - Gunny

Jesus is my lord & savior.
LA_357SIG
The Colt kool-aid tastes funny. I'll pass.
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Posted: 5/26/2011 8:26:15 PM
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 11:36:29 PM by LA_357SIG]
...When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP... How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount...


That was the intent of this thread. It seems like ALL companies (existing and startup) are starting offer MIL-STD-11595E barrels, Full auto carriers, MPI shot peened bolts etc with everything checked off the list. Say BCM gets it's spec'd parts from supplier A and PSA gets thier spec'd parts from supplier B and on each companies product description they are identical, then what's the difference between the brands? Should I demand certification sheets from each "milspec" vendor I purchase from?

All I can think of is that this is the new standard for commercial AR15 manufacturers (which was the old standard for years) and companies that continue to cut corners and use inferior materials will either conform or fade away.


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"If i was you I would keep it just like it is... and shoot the shit out of it until something breaks. Then replace whatever it is and keep shooting." - durabo
diaz_aa
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Posted: 5/26/2011 9:09:45 PM
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...

just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...

It varies with what you want and what you plan to do with it.


MREs replenish what the body needs in a meal ready to eat. It is efficient and effective, unlike hamburger helper. Just because it tastes better doesn't mean its better.
"Around here we handle problems with sight alignment, sight picture...."
WSAR15
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Posted: 5/26/2011 9:13:33 PM
The question of Mil Spec parts has floated on/off from time to time.
One thing for sure, nobody has clearly stated who offers mil quality or even mil spec parts - if such parts exist in semi auto.
Vamped
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Posted: 5/26/2011 9:14:48 PM
Member since 2007, 2600+ posts and you really have no idea?
GutWrench
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Posted: 5/26/2011 9:42:29 PM
Just buy a LMT and be happy.
Edited Aimless
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