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The Colt kool-aid tastes funny. I'll pass.
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Posted: 5/26/2011 11:27:06 AM EST
I was searching the 'net for some AR parts and came across some companies that I never heard of before offering "milspec" AR15 parts and complete rifles. I remembered reading the authors comments on why the chart was temporarily removed and one of his points that stood out was "companies using the chart as a checklist for [manufacturing]." Since then just about every new company that came out with an AR is comparable to Colt. BCM (right out the gate which is respectable), then Spikes conformed to the standard, then most of the old school companies started offering "milspec" AR's.

I guess what I am asking is: What seperates PSA and Sionics from BCM and Colt if they use (or claim to use) all the same "MIL-STD" materials and testing?

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 11:33:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By LA_357SIG:
I was searching the 'net for some AR parts and came across some companies that I never heard of before offering "milspec" AR15 parts and complete rifles. I remembered reading the authors comments on why the chart was temporarily removed and one of his points that stood out was "companies using the chart as a checklist for [manufacturing]." Since then just about every new company that came out with an AR is comparable to Colt. BCM (right out the gate which is respectable), then Spikes conformed to the standard, then most of the old school companies started offering "milspec" AR's.

I guess what I am asking is: What seperates PSA and Sionics from BCM and Colt if they use (or claim to use) all the same "MIL-STD" materials and testing?

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Who?
I guess the answer would be that BCM and Colt have all been tried, tested and verified. Some of these (Colt, LMT, DD) actually have military contracts.
There are many new companies coming to this very saturated market. I think I would rather stick to the company with well known quality.

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 11:44:29 AM EST
What makes one better than the other? Depends on the person's desires & the features that they require and/or want in the gun.
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 11:52:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 11:53:31 AM EST by TxEnforcer]
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...

just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...

It varies with what you want and what you plan to do with it.
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 11:54:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By warpig8654:
What makes one better than the other? Depends on the person's desires & the features that they require and/or want in the gun.


This.

I prefer LMT over all others because they are consistent. Not to mention they have the best customer service in the industry.
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 11:55:56 AM EST
"THE CHART"





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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 12:19:24 PM EST
Uppers are cut to military specifications, however AR lowers are not. A true mil spec lower accepts an auto sear and has a third pin hole.

In common terms "mil spec" merely means parts conform to military specification print diminsions and tolerances, short of permitting full automatic operation.

Three parts that shouldn't be mil spec in an AR are the hammer, disconnector or selector switch.

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 12:21:36 PM EST
First of all, if an AR part is designed to work only in a semi-auto gun and dimensionally different from the part in a US Military issue gun, then it can't Mil-spec.

Mil-spec parts are parts that are certified by a US Government Supplier (manufacturer or reseller) to meet US Government specifications for: materials, origin, manufacturing procedures, finishing, dimensions, inspections and testing, and in some cases shelf and service life/cycles.

Mil-spec parts cost the Government more than Commercial Spec parts because of the difference in documentation, and testing.

Companies with Government Supply Contracts have an advantage over those without, because they gain the advantage of the economies of scale. Meaning, if you make more at a time, then the cost to manufacture or purchase per unit goes down.

In the case of bolts and BCGs, some companies with military contracts make all of their parts the same, because while it may cost a little more to manufacture every part to Mil-spec with testing, it may work out to be less expensive than to run two parallel assemblly/manufacturing lines (Mil-spec and commercial). Due to price competition, with the volume of parts now being sold on the commercial market, some military suppliers are now selling Mil-spec and Commercial Spec parts. The price difference appears to be slight (again, in the case of BCGs), about $10-$20. This may infact be the manufacturing cost of not doing the MPI and HP testing required as part of the Mil-Spec, OR there may be other differences in manufacturing.

I had friends working as engineers at General Dynamics before it was bought out by BOEING. They constantly complained about the cost of providing the Government Required Documentation on every part they supplied individually or as part of assemblies or complete weapons as being a significant percentage of the cost of every product.

Because of this, I suggest that you ask before ordering parts, if the Mil-spec part label is important to you. Some Sellers are offering both Mil-Spec and commercial versions of parts on their websites (ther's a reason they show two parts from the same manufacturer at different prices).

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 12:30:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
"THE CHART"







Isn't some horror movie music supposed to play when you mention "the chart"?

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 12:56:57 PM EST
Mil-Spec is a required minimum, in the case of the AR its dimensions, metal properties, etc. Nothing usually states that you can't go above and beyond with regards to

increased strength of metals as long as your not changing dimensions.

Mil-Spec electronic components for example will perform in temperature extremes of cold and heat. Many commercial electronic products will fail
in these same climates.

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 1:10:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...

just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...

It varies with what you want and what you plan to do with it.


i remember seeing that in someones sig line....

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 1:15:30 PM EST
Comparing mil spec rifles to mil spec food doesn't mean a thing. When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP. Are there aspects contained in the TDP that can be improved upon? Sure. How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount. So while "mil-spec" often gets thrown around with no real context, it actually holds some weight when talking about these rifles.

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 1:18:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By ELPerdido:
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
"THE CHART"







Isn't some horror movie music supposed to play when you mention "the chart"?


Dum dum dum da DUUUMMMMM!
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 1:24:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 1:37:29 PM EST by warpig8654]
Originally Posted By altopwescap:
Uppers are cut to military specifications, however AR lowers are not. A true mil spec lower accepts an auto sear and has a third pin hole.

In common terms "mil spec" merely means parts conform to military specification print diminsions and tolerances, short of permitting full automatic operation.

Three parts that shouldn't be mil spec in an AR are the hammer, disconnector or selector switch.


Just because the lower might have a third hole with an auto sear doesn't mean it's "mil-spec" either.
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 1:36:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...


just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...


LOL, that is awesome


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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 1:57:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 2:02:03 PM EST by gmtmaster]
The real answer....For alot of people... "The internet told me it was better."

Just look at all of the threads as of late...

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 2:06:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By bud7h7:
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...


just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...


LOL, that is awesome



This is the kind of stuff the "just as good as" crowd gets off on. In reality the comparison is meaningless.

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 2:57:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 3:00:16 PM EST by thebomber]
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...

just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...

It varies with what you want and what you plan to do with it.



Finally someone who gets it. First off there is no one "mil spec" for the M16/M4. There are many of them. A Mil spec is ony a standard.....that doesn't mean it's a good standard or a relevant standard. In addition, with the Military, waivers (UAI, repair) to standards are the norm. Not bashing Mil specs just offering words of caution....they may not be the holy grail you think they are.

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 2:59:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Comparing mil spec rifles to mil spec food doesn't mean a thing. When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP. Are there aspects contained in the TDP that can be improved upon? Sure. How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount. So while "mil-spec" often gets thrown around with no real context, it actually holds some weight when talking about these rifles.



Not necessarily.

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 3:09:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Comparing mil spec rifles to mil spec food doesn't mean a thing. When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP. Are there aspects contained in the TDP that can be improved upon? Sure. How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount. So while "mil-spec" often gets thrown around with no real context, it actually holds some weight when talking about these rifles.


TDP shmeedypee...

The TDP is only used for Colt/FN/LMT M4 or older M16's sold to the US Government as far as know. It has nothing to do with most guns on the civilian market. The testing of parts in accordance with the TDP is not a secret and is used by many other manufactures/assemblers. Some have even released documented proof of this testing. Some claim to have "seen" the TDP and insist the parts they assemble into weapons are used. With all that being said, look at some of the improved weapons out there like those made by POF, KAC, LMT, MA, NRW, DD and others. They are by far much better then some neutered M4 in its pure form IMO. The only thing that needs to be held to the testing are the BCG, barrel and correct dimensions. All of which can be done without the TDP.

I wont even comment on "The Chart." One just has to read the dribble posted on TOS to learn how bias his information is.
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 3:16:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By thebomber:
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...

just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...

It varies with what you want and what you plan to do with it.



Finally someone who gets it. First off there is no one "mil spec" for the M16/M4. There are many of them. A Mil spec is ony a standard.....that doesn't mean it's a good standard or a relevant standard. In addition, with the Military, waivers (UAI, repair) to standards are the norm. Not bashing Mil specs just offering words of caution....they may not be the holy grail you think they are.



You are correct with regard to a "standard." Reference mil-spec for the M16/M4, however, I think it's a high standard that most commercial AR manufacturers are no where near meeting. So in this instance when we're talking about standards for a weapons system there isn't much that's better than current mil-std. I can understand the jabs at mil-spec with regard to some other gov't items meant for the mil not being so up to par in accordance with most folks opinion.
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 3:26:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 6:36:29 PM EST by LA_357SIG]
...When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP... How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount...


That was the intent of this thread. It seems like ALL companies (existing and startup) are starting offer MIL-STD-11595E barrels, Full auto carriers, MPI shot peened bolts etc with everything checked off the list. Say BCM gets it's spec'd parts from supplier A and PSA gets thier spec'd parts from supplier B and on each companies product description they are identical, then what's the difference between the brands? Should I demand certification sheets from each "milspec" vendor I purchase from?

All I can think of is that this is the new standard for commercial AR15 manufacturers (which was the old standard for years) and companies that continue to cut corners and use inferior materials will either conform or fade away.


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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 4:09:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...

just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...

It varies with what you want and what you plan to do with it.


MREs replenish what the body needs in a meal ready to eat. It is efficient and effective, unlike hamburger helper. Just because it tastes better doesn't mean its better.
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 4:13:33 PM EST
The question of Mil Spec parts has floated on/off from time to time.
One thing for sure, nobody has clearly stated who offers mil quality or even mil spec parts - if such parts exist in semi auto.

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 4:14:48 PM EST
Member since 2007, 2600+ posts and you really have no idea?

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 4:42:29 PM EST
Just buy a LMT and be happy.
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 5:23:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By thebomber:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Comparing mil spec rifles to mil spec food doesn't mean a thing. When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP. Are there aspects contained in the TDP that can be improved upon? Sure. How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount. So while "mil-spec" often gets thrown around with no real context, it actually holds some weight when talking about these rifles.



Not necessarily.



Oh?

When one considers the lowest acceptable standards as set forth by the mil specs and embodied by the TDP, one can only wonder why it is so hard for so many to even meet these bare minimums. Some companies build to a measured, repeatable standard. Others..... not so much. Please point out where my statement is inaccurate?

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 5:27:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By GutWrench:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Comparing mil spec rifles to mil spec food doesn't mean a thing. When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP. Are there aspects contained in the TDP that can be improved upon? Sure. How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount. So while "mil-spec" often gets thrown around with no real context, it actually holds some weight when talking about these rifles.


TDP shmeedypee...

The TDP is only used for Colt/FN/LMT M4 or older M16's sold to the US Government as far as know. It has nothing to do with most guns on the civilian market. The testing of parts in accordance with the TDP is not a secret and is used by many other manufactures/assemblers. Some have even released documented proof of this testing. Some claim to have "seen" the TDP and insist the parts they assemble into weapons are used. With all that being said, look at some of the improved weapons out there like those made by POF, KAC, LMT, MA, NRW, DD and others. They are by far much better then some neutered M4 in its pure form IMO. The only thing that needs to be held to the testing are the BCG, barrel and correct dimensions. All of which can be done without the TDP.

I wont even comment on "The Chart." One just has to read the dribble posted on TOS to learn how bias his information is.


And yet so many don't come anywhere close......

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 5:42:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By LA_357SIG:
...When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP... How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount...


That was the intent of this thread. It seems like ALL companies (existing and startup) are starting offer MIL-STD-1195E barrels, Full auto carriers, MPI shot peened bolts etc with everything checked off the list. Say BCM gets it's spec'd parts from supplier A and PSA gets thier spec'd parts from supplier B and on each companies product description they are identical, then what's the difference between the brands? Should I demand certification sheets from each "milspec" vendor I purchase from?

All I can think of is that this is the new standard for commercial AR15 manufacturers (which was the old standard for years) and companies that continue to cut corners and use inferior materials will either conform or fade away.


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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 6:35:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 6:39:28 PM EST by thebomber]
Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Originally Posted By thebomber:
Originally Posted By TxEnforcer:
M.R.E's are mil-spec

My g/f's hamburger helper isnt, but taste better...

just because it's mil-spec doesn't make it better...

It varies with what you want and what you plan to do with it.



Finally someone who gets it. First off there is no one "mil spec" for the M16/M4. There are many of them. A Mil spec is ony a standard.....that doesn't mean it's a good standard or a relevant standard. In addition, with the Military, waivers (UAI, repair) to standards are the norm. Not bashing Mil specs just offering words of caution....they may not be the holy grail you think they are.



You are correct with regard to a "standard." Reference mil-spec for the M16/M4, however, I think it's a high standard that most commercial AR manufacturers are no where near meeting. So in this instance when we're talking about standards for a weapons system there isn't much that's better than current mil-std. I can understand the jabs at mil-spec with regard to some other gov't items meant for the mil not being so up to par in accordance with most folks opinion.



The following is not meant to brag, just to put my comments into the context of my level of experience which is considerable.


I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and worked for Lockheed Martin in the following positions Process Control Engineer for Assembly, wiring and machining. Supervisor of Test and Inspection, Team Leader for Manufacturing Operations and Team Leader of supplier QA at GE Aerospace and Locheed Martin. I worked on the following programs Bradley and Avenger Transmission and turret stabilization, Aegis and MK73 director and control, IREMBASS, Trident II Fire Control and IMU, Big BIrd, NSA Secure Communications, Space Station etc.

I feel very qualified to talk about the pros and cons of "mil specs". In my opinion and based upon my experience most folks on this board who bring up "TDP" and MIL SPEC" don't know what the fuck they're talking about. I have had to deal with milspecs that don;t have anything to do with the end item use and others that do no more than add cost. If I had a dollar for every PMR or QCR I signed off on on the Trident Program, I'd be retired.


I'm not saying there isn't any value to Mil SPecs as there certainly is. My issue is how folks throw that out as if everything the Military fields actually meets the milspec. From my actual and extensive experience that is not reality. In addition, some of the mil spec requirements do not add to the quality of the product.


As an example, MPI does nothing more than say that the product being MPI'd does not have any detectable defects at the time the item was MPI'd. It does not tell you if the item was correctly heat treated or is of the specified material content. Only destructive tests would show tha amd if the item is poorly heat treated it will pass MPI and likey fail during use.


Continue onb.



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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 6:40:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By thebomber:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Comparing mil spec rifles to mil spec food doesn't mean a thing. When talking about the AR15 we are talking about the TDP. Are there aspects contained in the TDP that can be improved upon? Sure. How many companies out there produce something that meets those specs? Not many? How many exceed them? An even smaller amount. So while "mil-spec" often gets thrown around with no real context, it actually holds some weight when talking about these rifles.



Not necessarily.



Oh?

When one considers the lowest acceptable standards as set forth by the mil specs and embodied by the TDP, one can only wonder why it is so hard for so many to even meet these bare minimums. Some companies build to a measured, repeatable standard. Others..... not so much. Please point out where my statement is inaccurate?


Read my directly above post.

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 6:42:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 6:46:44 PM EST by CTbuilder1]
So. We have covered food, space stations and fighting vehicles. But this thread is talking about a specific pattern rifle so what does any of that other stuff have to do with the rifles we are talking about?

Originally Posted By thebomber:

Read my directly above post.



I did. It doesn't answer the question. It's similar to me asking my grandfather the same question and him telling me that he has a masters in ME and a BS in aeronautical engineering and ran the QA dept at P&W. (true story).

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 6:53:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 7:14:48 PM EST by pun]
As was just said mil-spec means a certain set of standards in construction,materials used and how they are tested.For instance MP testing means nothing if it was done without the part being HP or high pressure tested first and then MPed to see if there are any flaws.Were the right materials used 158 carpenter steel for bolts 1195E steel for barrels and im sure there are 1 or 2 other types of steel that are acceptable for use in military barrels.Was the bolt and extractor shotpeend,HP tested then MPed to see if its GTG.

Even when all these factors are in place and all parts used are top quality and conform to standards there is till the human factor..the skills of the person doing the building..you can have the best tested parts money can buy and it means nothing if the assembler does not know what he or she is doing and if he or she is good enough to do it consistently if you build 100 rifles and you tighten and loosen 3 times on the barrel nut and use the right grease and then on 101 you dont then thats a failure in the human chain and chances are the lax built rifle may fail in some way.Mil-spec is a set of minimum standards to be adhered to some companies meet,exceed or dont meet this at all.Lower quality rifles built right will prevail over higher quality parts rifles built calous or wrong so theres a lot that goes into it more so then just parts made and tested to a certain standard.

Lets get one thing straight manufacturers are just builders of parts just like we are if we choose to build our own.Some companies make important parts in house like barrels and other parts and QC can be kept high,most companies dont they inspect parts they get from out sourced machine shops so now a manufacturer becomes dependant on the quality and word of some one elses work standards.Also compant A may require higher standards and testing than company B even though the same company makes parts for both lots of times manufacturers set their own standards for sub contractors to follow wether it be higher or lower standards the company out sourcing the part will set their own standards based on their cost.

Spikes Tactical shows you can do high quality right on par with others for a way lower price but maybe because they dont make issue weapons or what ever other factors they dont command a higher price than others can even if they build to the same standards as a company that say makes the actual weapons for the military...with some things you pay for just the name but such is marketing and capitalism in a free society when it comes to buisness.And there is a peace of mind I guess you get when theres a company thats been making the rifle for the last 45 years and Spikes or BCM hasnt been doing it that long or for the military..there are lots of factors that govern lots of things.

So what makes one rifle built with mil-spec quality parts better than the next nothing but the competency that went into building the rifle and parts and testing said parts thats all.I think my factory Bushmasters I got in 92 and 93 were built better than whats being cranked out on a larger scale today from Bushmaster but then its not the same company with the same people it was when I bought my rifles.Ive seen properly built lower quality than the spec parts rifles out perform better quality parts rifles built wrong or with not enough attention to detail.

Theres more that goes into a quality rifle than just top notch top quality tested parts.People are not the machines building parts and the human chain can fail and when building weapon systems of anykind it comes down to not only good parts,good testing it comes to good knowledgeable people who can build thses weapon systems consistently from one to another and be able to do it day in and day out.I do my job well but im not perfect anything can effect your work wether its a physical limitation,mental or what ever your going through when trying to do your job 110% day in and day out...nothing and I mean nothing is perfect and the term mil-spec properly used or not will not make it so ever.

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 7:08:27 PM EST
Some people love to throw the "mil-spec" term like its made by Jesus himself.
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 7:12:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2011 7:18:18 PM EST by thebomber]
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
So. We have covered food, space stations and fighting vehicles. But this thread is talking about a specific pattern rifle so what does any of that other stuff have to do with the rifles we are talking about?

Originally Posted By thebomber:

Read my directly above post.



I did. It doesn't answer the question. It's similar to me asking my grandfather the same question and him telling me that he has a masters in ME and a BS in aeronautical engineering and ran the QA dept at P&W. (true story).


Sorry you can't wrap your brain around my point. You are assuming that "mil spec" is better than commercial production. It probably is....but it may not be. First off there is no "mil spec" for the M16. It's composed of many "mil specs". Maybe a commercial builders specs are better than a document (mil spec) that was written 50 years ago that doesn't take into consideration modern materials and processes. If you have experience with mil specs you would know what I'm saying. Mil specs are very rigid and hard to change. Once again I'm not bashing them ony cautioning that they may not be what you think they are.
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 7:12:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By GutWrench:
Some people love to throw the "mil-spec" term like its made by Jesus himself.


Exactly my point thanks......

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 7:23:10 PM EST
Their ad budget

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 7:34:08 PM EST
If you are comparing true milspec rifles then i would assume they are all the same so then choose whoever has the best reputation for customer service.

Nothing wrong with getting your info from reading about others experience.
When choosing a car do you buy one of each model to try out or do you read Car and Driver or consumer reports to get a informed opinion to help choose the best car for your money
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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 7:39:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By thebomber:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
So. We have covered food, space stations and fighting vehicles. But this thread is talking about a specific pattern rifle so what does any of that other stuff have to do with the rifles we are talking about?

Originally Posted By thebomber:

Read my directly above post.



I did. It doesn't answer the question. It's similar to me asking my grandfather the same question and him telling me that he has a masters in ME and a BS in aeronautical engineering and ran the QA dept at P&W. (true story).


Sorry you can't wrap your brain around my point. You are assuming that "mil spec" is better than commercial production. It probably is....but it may not be. First off there is no "mil spec" for the M16. It's composed of many "mil specs". Maybe a commercial builders specs are better than a document (mil spec) that was written 50 years ago that doesn't take into consideration modern materials and processes. If you have experience with mil specs you would know what I'm saying. Mil specs are very rigid and hard to change. Once again I'm not bashing them ony cautioning that they may not be what you think they are.


What they are are a set of standards to make sure a certain level of quality and parts interchangeably are maintained on the product. And what I am saying is that (pertaining to the AR15/M16/M4) it's better to have a standard than no standard. It's the whole package from parts to assembly to testing. The companies that build products to a standard and have repeatable results are much better than those who cobble together their product from whatever left over OTS parts they can acquire.

In short, the milspecs and TDP used by companies, Oh let's say, "C" and "F" are probably better than the Tuesday specs and whatever we feel like package used by a large portion of commercial manufacturers. I am by no means saying that mil-specs in general are the be all end all in every case.

Anything wrong with that assessment?

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 8:07:52 PM EST
Since we're doing analogies...
The Check-Mate M9 mags I threw away last year were mil-spec. The P-Mags I used today were not.

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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 10:30:13 PM EST
"A United States defense standard, often called a military standard, "MIL-STD", "MIL-SPEC", or (informally) "MilSpecs", is used to help achieve standardization objectives by the U.S. Department of Defense.

Standardization is beneficial in achieving interoperability, ensuring products meet certain requirements, commonality, reliability, total cost of ownership, compatibility with logistics systems, and similar defense-related objectives.

Defense standards are also used by other non-defense government organizations, technical organizations, and industry".


And from CTbuilder himself "Mil-spec = set of standards set forth by military to be met by product

Technical Data Package (TDP) = Specification that the M16/M4 platform is built to. TDP is Colt's IP."


The TDP was Colt's "IP" only because they bought the patent rights from Armalite. As of July 1, 2009 the DOD now has the rights to the M-16M4 (and one can assume M16A2) TDP.

Commercial manufacturers adhere to TDP specifications and tolerances to maintain indudustry wide compatablity and interchangiblity.




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Link Posted: 5/26/2011 11:14:45 PM EST
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Link Posted: 5/27/2011 2:20:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:

Originally Posted By thebomber:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
So. We have covered food, space stations and fighting vehicles. But this thread is talking about a specific pattern rifle so what does any of that other stuff have to do with the rifles we are talking about?

Originally Posted By thebomber:

Read my directly above post.



I did. It doesn't answer the question. It's similar to me asking my grandfather the same question and him telling me that he has a masters in ME and a BS in aeronautical engineering and ran the QA dept at P&W. (true story).


Sorry you can't wrap your brain around my point. You are assuming that "mil spec" is better than commercial production. It probably is....but it may not be. First off there is no "mil spec" for the M16. It's composed of many "mil specs". Maybe a commercial builders specs are better than a document (mil spec) that was written 50 years ago that doesn't take into consideration modern materials and processes. If you have experience with mil specs you would know what I'm saying. Mil specs are very rigid and hard to change. Once again I'm not bashing them ony cautioning that they may not be what you think they are.


What they are are a set of standards to make sure a certain level of quality and parts interchangeably are maintained on the product. And what I am saying is that (pertaining to the AR15/M16/M4) it's better to have a standard than no standard. It's the whole package from parts to assembly to testing. The companies that build products to a standard and have repeatable results are much better than those who cobble together their product from whatever left over OTS parts they can acquire.

In short, the milspecs and TDP used by companies, Oh let's say, "C" and "F" are probably better than the Tuesday specs and whatever we feel like package used by a large portion of commercial manufacturers. I am by no means saying that mil-specs in general are the be all end all in every case.

Anything wrong with that assessment?


Abosolutely nothing.

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Link Posted: 5/27/2011 2:25:11 AM EST
For some things the mil-spec is where you should be, or the bare minimum. It's neither pointless, nor is it the one true way.



Thank you that's what I've been saying.
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Link Posted: 5/27/2011 4:22:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By altopwescap:

The TDP was Colt's "IP" only because they bought the patent rights from Armalite. As of July 1, 2009 the DOD now has the rights to the M-16M4 (and one can assume M16A2) TDP.



The TDP still is Colt's IP. They still own the M16 TDP and the M4 addendum for it. The government has had rights to the M16 portion for quite some time. In '09 the sole source agreement for the M4 expired. This means that the government can now seek alternative sources for the M4 in the same way they can for the M16. Colt is paid a fee for use of the design still.

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Link Posted: 5/27/2011 5:22:57 AM EST
Im stopped reading this thread when I saw it get a little, well dumb.

But anyway, LaRue-Not Milspec>Colt-Sorta Milspec

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Link Posted: 5/27/2011 2:16:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
Im stopped reading this thread when I saw it get a little, well dumb.

But anyway, LaRue-Not Milspec>Colt-Sorta Milspec


Better how? More accurate maybe.

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Link Posted: 5/27/2011 3:06:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
Im stopped reading this thread when I saw it get a little, well dumb.

But anyway, LaRue-Not Milspec>Colt-Sorta Milspec


Better how? More accurate maybe.


I think he means costs more
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Link Posted: 5/27/2011 6:17:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
Im stopped reading this thread when I saw it get a little, well dumb.

But anyway, LaRue-Not Milspec>Colt-Sorta Milspec


Better how? More accurate maybe.


I think he means costs more


Im saying milspec is something that can be exceeded.

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Link Posted: 5/27/2011 6:48:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By LA_357SIG:
I was searching the 'net for some AR parts and came across some companies that I never heard of before offering "milspec" AR15 parts and complete rifles. I remembered reading the authors comments on why the chart was temporarily removed and one of his points that stood out was "companies using the chart as a checklist for [manufacturing]." Since then just about every new company that came out with an AR is comparable to Colt. BCM (right out the gate which is respectable), then Spikes conformed to the standard, then most of the old school companies started offering "milspec" AR's.

I guess what I am asking is: What seperates PSA and Sionics from BCM and Colt if they use (or claim to use) all the same "MIL-STD" materials and testing?

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Dont fall for all the anti mil-spec garbage. Mil-Spec simply means something is manufactured to a certain set of tolerances in dimension, finishes and assembly. When the military wants a mass produced weapon, they want interchangibility and repeatability whereas all parts will and can work with any other part of the same spec when refering to dimensions. It also takes into account for the worst case scenario of massive abuse of being used in water, dirt and sand. There are plenty of rifles, including the top producers like Les Baer that far surpass the typical mil spec Colt in quality and performance. Remember, you get what you pay for when buying something.

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Link Posted: 5/27/2011 6:50:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By SevenSixtyTwo:
Originally Posted By LA_357SIG:
I was searching the 'net for some AR parts and came across some companies that I never heard of before offering "milspec" AR15 parts and complete rifles. I remembered reading the authors comments on why the chart was temporarily removed and one of his points that stood out was "companies using the chart as a checklist for [manufacturing]." Since then just about every new company that came out with an AR is comparable to Colt. BCM (right out the gate which is respectable), then Spikes conformed to the standard, then most of the old school companies started offering "milspec" AR's.

I guess what I am asking is: What seperates PSA and Sionics from BCM and Colt if they use (or claim to use) all the same "MIL-STD" materials and testing?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Dont fall for all the anti mil-spec garbage. Mil-Spec simply means something is manufactured to a certain set of tolerances in dimension, finishes and assembly. When the military wants a mass produced weapon, they want interchangibility and repeatability whereas all parts will and can work with any other part of the same spec when refering to dimensions. It also takes into account for the worst case scenario of massive abuse of being used in water, dirt and sand. There are plenty of rifles, including the top producers like Les Baer that far surpass the typical mil spec Colt in quality and performance. Remember, you get what you pay for when buying something.


I don't think so.

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