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Opey
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Posted: 7/3/2009 5:54:01 PM
Ok, so what is so special about a cold hammer forged barrel? Is it a more accurate barrel? I thought if a barrel was chrome-lined, then it wasn't as accurate as one that wasn't chrome-lined, and even less accurate than say a stainless steel barrel. Am I missing something here, or am I just not grasping what the concept/benefit is...
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nicholsmf
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Posted: 7/3/2009 6:14:12 PM
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Essayons
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Posted: 7/3/2009 6:18:37 PM
[Last Edit: 7/3/2009 6:19:58 PM by Essayons]
While cold hammer forged barrels are not known for their accuracy they can be very accurate.

Colt hammer forging requires a lot of tooling, but can result in low unit costs where volumes are high. That is why high volume manufacturers like Remington and CZ use them.

The pros and cons of cold hammer forged barrels are related. The metal is worked cold. That introduces stress, which can affect accuracy negatively if nothing is done to relieve it. On the other hand, it work hardens the metal, which makes it strong and durable and results in a smooth bore. It results in the many of features HK hypes in the HK416/MR556.

Done right (e.g. CZ-452, Noveske N4) the results can be very accurate.

Here's a good article on the topic: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/RSgunsmith1/
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oneshot_onekill
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Posted: 7/3/2009 10:09:56 PM
Cold Hammer forging involves a large expensive machine (in the millions) that basically beats a short fat steel tube in a circular pattern around a small "rifling-shaped" insert inside the tube, stretching it out as it goes along. Steyr has had great success with cold hammer forged barrels on their SSG Sniper rifles. They're also Chrome-lined. I've owned several and they are the most accurate "out of the box" Tactical Bolt Rifle out there! It's my understanding that the initial expense of the machine is what keeps smaller companies from using it. FWIW
Geohans
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Posted: 7/3/2009 10:23:20 PM
Necessity of high volume production of machine gun barrels was the "mother of invention" in 20th Century Europe. It can be a sloppy production method, but when done right it can be quite accurate.

FN is producing hammer forged M249 barrels for US Mil, and Noveske has gotten them to make his N4 barrels. I have one, and it is the most accurate AR CL barrel I have ever owned.
Sinister
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Posted: 7/3/2009 10:40:55 PM
Properly done hammer forging arranges the crystal matrix structure of the iron and carbon in steel molecules into a very hard and durable barrel. Proper heat stress relief and cryogenic treatment further arranges austenite to martensite, hardening the steel even more and making it abrasion resistant.

Proper chrome lining (avoiding hydrogen embrittlement which can lead to peeling, flaking, and heat cracking) and you have the potential for exceptional barrels.

HK, Colt Canada, and FN make some exceptional MILSPEC hammer forged 5.56 barrels.

The Army and National Guard rifle teams often "Cherry-pick" the best out of available batches of GI-issue barrels if match rules require unmodified issue weapons (M16A2s, A4s, and M4 carbines).

Hammer-forging mass produces good quality barrels quickly.

Remember in manufacturing you can get good, cheap, and fast –– pick two.
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Posted: 7/9/2009 12:11:06 AM
new-arguy
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Posted: 7/9/2009 12:35:40 AM
Originally Posted By Geohans:
FN is producing hammer forged M249 barrels for US Mil, and Noveske has gotten them to make his N4 barrels. I have one, and it is the most accurate AR CL barrel I have ever owned.


Is this common knowledge? I had not ever heard FN was making Noveske barrels? What is the source of this info?
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ALASKANFIRE
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Posted: 7/9/2009 12:53:06 AM
Originally Posted By new-arguy:
Originally Posted By Geohans:
FN is producing hammer forged M249 barrels for US Mil, and Noveske has gotten them to make his N4 barrels. I have one, and it is the most accurate AR CL barrel I have ever owned.


Is this common knowledge? I had not ever heard FN was making Noveske barrels? What is the source of this info?


Me neither.

I thought I remembered John saying his barrels were made by pacnor on special machinery that he bought
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That old adage "everyone gets cut in a kniife fight" applies to turtle fighting too
new-arguy
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Posted: 7/9/2009 12:56:18 AM
[Last Edit: 7/9/2009 12:57:22 AM by new-arguy]
I think he is mistaken. I'll try to find out for sure tomorrw.

ETA, As I was told (by John) its not even correct to say his barrels are made by Pac-Nor.
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ALASKANFIRE
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Posted: 7/9/2009 1:02:37 AM
Find out if you can, I would like to know for sure.
Originally Posted By SevenMaryThree:
That old adage "everyone gets cut in a kniife fight" applies to turtle fighting too
bob332
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Posted: 7/9/2009 1:05:07 AM
[Last Edit: 7/9/2009 1:34:08 AM by bob332]

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
I think he is mistaken. I'll try to find out for sure tomorrw.

ETA, As I was told (by John) its not even correct to say his barrels are made by Pac-Nor.

although i don't know the validity of the info in this thread, it is sprinkled throughout the 7 pages of it. in a nutshell from the thread listed, brl wise, noveske = fn & centurion arms = fn

but, i don't know for sure, just from the thread i have listed

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=437301&page=1

also doing a bit of digging around i found this:

centurion arms hammer forged brl fs on the ee - http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=696176

and note the cage code in the 2nd pic down = 3S679, now use google and search cage code for FN and this comes up along w/ many others stating the same cage code for fn -
https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/award_web_09/W52H0909D01030000/W52H0908R0353/attach_exhib/att003l08s5007.pdf

the above link gives and issue w/ the security certificate for the site, so you can just view the pdf info from google -
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:oID0QuMjd-8J:https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/award_web_09/W52H0909D01030000/W52H0908R0353/attach_exhib/att003l08s5007.pdf+fn+cage+code&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

so, it appears that one of fn's cage code's is 3S679 and that centurion arms gets their barrels from fn, so if it is reported that centurion arms and noveske both get their barrels from the same source, one could conclude that one of the sources is fn.


new-arguy
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Posted: 7/9/2009 1:29:01 AM
There are certainly some in the know people chiming in on that thread, all of which seem to say Noveske's C/L barrels are from FN. I will see what, if anything, I can get from Noveske tomorrow.
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bob332
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Posted: 7/9/2009 1:30:39 AM
[Last Edit: 7/9/2009 1:33:52 AM by bob332]

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
There are certainly some in the know people chiming in on that thread, all of which seem to say Noveske's C/L barrels are from FN. I will see what, if anything, I can get from Noveske tomorrow.

i edited while you responded, found more info.....

also doing a bit of digging around i found this:

centurion arms hammer forged brl fs on the ee - http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=696176

and note the cage code in the 2nd pic down = 3S679, now use google and search cage code for FN and this comes up along w/ many others stating the same cage code for fn -
https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/award_web_09/W52H0909D01030000/W52H0908R0353/attach_exhib/att003l08s5007.pdf

the above link gives and issue w/ the security certificate for the site, so you can just view the pdf info from google -
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:oID0QuMjd-8J:https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/award_web_09/W52H0909D01030000/W52H0908R0353/attach_exhib/att003l08s5007.pdf+fn+cage+code&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

so, it appears that one of fn's cage code's is 3S679 and that centurion arms gets their barrels from fn, so if it is reported that centurion arms and noveske both get their barrels from the same source, one could conclude that one of the sources is fn.


DvlDog
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Posted: 7/9/2009 1:32:24 AM
Originally Posted By new-arguy:
I think he is mistaken. I'll try to find out for sure tomorrw.

ETA, As I was told (by John) its not even correct to say his barrels are made by Pac-Nor.


The N4 light barrels that are hammer forged and chrome lined are made by FN from M249 blanks. This is fairly common knowledge confirmed by Monte LeClare as the source for both his barrels and Noveske's.
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Posted: 7/9/2009 2:31:02 AM
Originally Posted By Opey:
Ok, so what is so special about a cold hammer forged barrel? Is it a more accurate barrel? I thought if a barrel was chrome-lined, then it wasn't as accurate as one that wasn't chrome-lined, and even less accurate than say a stainless steel barrel. Am I missing something here, or am I just not grasping what the concept/benefit is...


Awhile back a buddy of mine was shooting hi-power.............this guy always buy's top shelf and has got the money to do it..........broach-cut stainless.......is what he specified and he claimed that was the best.......by Krieger.............
nukeman
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Posted: 7/9/2009 5:19:55 AM
Originally Posted By Sinister:
Properly done hammer forging arranges the crystal matrix structure of the iron and carbon in steel molecules into a very hard and durable barrel.

Proper heat stress relief and cryogenic treatment further arranges austenite to martensite, hardening the steel even more and making it abrasion resistant.


You are misunderstanding what you have read about steel processing.

Sub-MOA
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Posted: 7/9/2009 7:24:17 AM
[Last Edit: 7/9/2009 7:29:16 AM by Sub-MOA]
I can only think of one source on the face of the earth for for 249 barrels...

I guess you could source hammer forged blanks and turn them into AR-15 barrels. Then you would need to spec CMV and I suspect that hammer forging CMV is a very specialized skill set.

BTW: It's impolite to gank other people's photos.
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9divdoc
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Posted: 7/9/2009 9:12:29 AM
Originally Posted By new-arguy:
Originally Posted By Geohans:
FN is producing hammer forged M249 barrels for US Mil, and Noveske has gotten them to make his N4 barrels. I have one, and it is the most accurate AR CL barrel I have ever owned.


Is this common knowledge? I had not ever heard FN was making Noveske barrels? What is the source of this info?


Yes and they are letting a few others use their barrels as well....they have non disclosure agreements...fwiu

You'd be surprised at who presently has FN barrels on their offerings...and who are board sponsors
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Geohans
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Posted: 7/9/2009 9:28:18 AM
Since I was quoted early in this thread, let me say my source for saying Noveske's CL barrels are from FN was comments direct to me from Monte at Centurion Arms. I snagged one from Noveske, it is superb. mine is 14.5.
jnielsen
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Posted: 7/9/2009 9:56:45 AM
Hammer forged barrels are no big deal. Along with button rifling these two methods are the most cost efffective in a production process.

Cut rifliing is the most expensive and labor intensive.
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Posted: 7/9/2009 10:09:50 AM
All I know is my Noveskes N4 rifles with the chrome lining is the most accurate AR CL barrel I have ever owned.
buddyhoohaw
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Posted: 7/9/2009 10:59:22 AM
Originally Posted By DvlDog:
Originally Posted By new-arguy:
I think he is mistaken. I'll try to find out for sure tomorrw.

ETA, As I was told (by John) its not even correct to say his barrels are made by Pac-Nor.


The N4 light barrels that are hammer forged and chrome lined are made by FN from M249 blanks. This is fairly common knowledge confirmed by Monte LeClare as the source for both his barrels and Noveske's.


+1

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bob332
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Posted: 7/9/2009 3:05:45 PM

Originally Posted By Sub-MOA:
I can only think of one source on the face of the earth for for 249 barrels...

I guess you could source hammer forged blanks and turn them into AR-15 barrels. Then you would need to spec CMV and I suspect that hammer forging CMV is a very specialized skill set.

BTW: It's impolite to gank other people's photos.
the pic is from the ee post i was talking about - you see the same pic on the ee i listed as i linked to here, it was for reference purposes only

Sub-MOA
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Posted: 7/9/2009 3:43:23 PM
Originally Posted By bob332:

Originally Posted By Sub-MOA:
I can only think of one source on the face of the earth for for 249 barrels...

I guess you could source hammer forged blanks and turn them into AR-15 barrels. Then you would need to spec CMV and I suspect that hammer forging CMV is a very specialized skill set.

BTW: It's impolite to gank other people's photos.
the pic is from the ee post i was talking about - you see the same pic on the ee i listed as i linked to here, it was for reference purposes only



No worries bob. Especially when it's a product I'm selling, I'm just trying to avoid getting drug down into the fray on this one.
It a controversial issue even amongst some very knowledgeable people.

I guess the only way it will ever be resolved is by a third party with no dog in the fight.
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bob332
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Posted: 7/9/2009 7:34:02 PM

Originally Posted By Sub-MOA:
Originally Posted By bob332:

Originally Posted By Sub-MOA:
I can only think of one source on the face of the earth for for 249 barrels...

I guess you could source hammer forged blanks and turn them into AR-15 barrels. Then you would need to spec CMV and I suspect that hammer forging CMV is a very specialized skill set.

BTW: It's impolite to gank other people's photos.
the pic is from the ee post i was talking about - you see the same pic on the ee i listed as i linked to here, it was for reference purposes only



No worries bob. Especially when it's a product I'm selling, I'm just trying to avoid getting drug down into the fray on this one.
It a controversial issue even amongst some very knowledgeable people.

I guess the only way it will ever be resolved is by a third party with no dog in the fight.

sorry sub-moa, i didn't even pay attention to the seller and notice it was you , didn't mean to bring anybody into this it was just a way to connect the dots.
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